Im not sure if this is the section this belongs in, but I wasnt sure where tuning stuff goes.. Please move it to its appropriate place if this isnt it..
Spent 3 hours today trying to bareshaft tune my bow/arrows. By bareshaft tuning, I mean shooting a bare shaft arrow into a blank target bale to see the angle it is going in..
Ok so my bow is a Samick Sage T/D at 45#. I only pull it to 27", so I am only pulling 42#, checked on a scale.
I have a half dozen Gold Tip 3555 (.500 spine) arrows that I am shooting.
First issue - arrow is impacting nock-high. I have moved my nock point down, down, down and nothing helped, so then I moved it up, up, and up, and still get the same thing. I switched my fingers on the string since I thought maybe I was getting nock pinch, and it didnt help. I then switched my limbs around, thinking maybe one limb had a different deflection and my tiller was off, and I still get the same nock-high result.
Next problem - Nock-right. I would assume this means my spine is too stiff. So I began adding weight...and more weight...and more. I had it up to a 145gr tip and 200gr of brass inserts..at the end, it was better than the beginning, but still nock-right. Arrows are full length (31"). I assume this means my spine is still too stiff, but with 345gr of weight up front, am I really still too stiff?? I dont really want to buy new arrows without knowing thats most likely going to fix my problem.
Should I go to a 1535 (.600) arrow? The gold tip arrow selection chart tells me I should be shooting a 5575 (.400) at that weight and length - are those charts really THAT far off??
I tried shooting my bare shaft into a group of my fletched arrows and it hits the same spot, just crooked..
Please help me out guys - I was ready to throw my bow in the garbage (not really, but you get what I mean).
"are those charts really THAT far off??"
YES.
I would think the 600 spine would be alot closer to what you need for 42 lbs, as far as the nock high, could be a couple things. you could be imparting torque on the string causing this,and no matter where you put your nock,it wont go away. a good indicater to show this is come to full draw while you have some one watch and look for downward flex of the shaft as you are drawing, this usually indicates torque, the other is that the shaft is just way to stiff and is bouncing off the outside of the shelf and showing nock high also. just a couple things to check, I am sure the xperts will be along shortly
http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm
try this , go to bow tuning
A 200 grain insert would have to be more than 3 inches long. In your effort to soften the spine you are actually making stiffer. I would use a standard insert with a 175 grain tip. But IMO I would use a .600 size arrow.
And take a day off from shooting before you shoot again, you need to relax or your frustration will effect your form and you will get mixed results.
Bare shaft flight can have a lot to do with release over actual spine, believe me I've tied myself in knots over it.
My solution (for what it's worth) - get your bareshafts and fletched arrows grouping together at a reasonable range that spine issues would be evident if there were any. Next, do the same with broadness and field points. If they group together and arrow flight is good - you're good to go.
QuoteOriginally posted by Keith Langford:
I would think the 600 spine would be alot closer to what you need for 42 lbs....
But Im curious how much difference there is between a .500 spine with 345gr up front and a .600 spine with like 150 up front.
Is my .500 spine really still THAT stiff?
It could be how your shelf is cut(to or past center), what type of rest and plate you use.
We have almost identical poundage and draw length.My bow tuned perfectly with Easton axis arrows in the 600 spine with just an inch cut off and a 150 grains up front using the standerd aluminum insert.
I would definitely do as drewsbow said and go to the tuning info at bowmaker.net
You should be able to get the 35/55's to tune with app. 200 grs of point weight and a standard insert.I can only give you a ballpark point weight.You will have to figure that part out.
With OL's planing method of tuning,you forget nock angle which can be affected by form issues,and you get the bare shafts and fletched shafts to impact together as far away as you feel safe shooting them,then switch to broadheads.
I think the .600's would work also but you would end up with a much lighter arrow.I know you can tune the .500's with point weight and suspect you should find it at roughly 200 grs up front at that shaft length.
Shoot at a target next time and don't mix tuning methods.Only change one thing at a time.Re-read that one.
I agree with the 1535=600 spine would be a better shaft.
From Brack's bow tuning tips:shot a bare shaft into a foam target at 25 yards or any other non-directional target will do. I also like to draw a big crosshair to help with alignment. At 25 yards the bare shaft has time to get out of paradox.
So you guys that are saying that I should be fine with about 200gr up front - are you saying you agree with Tomas, and Im actually stiffening my spine by adding all those inserts?
I want to shoot a 125gr Bullhead for turkeys, so that pretty much limits my tip weight.. But a .600 spine arrow outta do the trick?
OL's planing method is the way to go. When your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched arrows you should be all set. Prove it all out with broadheads last.
QuoteOriginally posted by Joeabowhunter:
OL's planing method is the way to go. When your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched arrows you should be all set. Prove it all out with broadheads last.
What if Im not good enough yet to group real well at 20 yards?
I feel decently confident at 10 yards, but so far, I have done the majority of my shooting at there, and not 20.
I can also see my fletched arrows fishtailing in the air when I shoot, unlike the "darts" coming out of other guys' bows..
My arrow set up with my #40 Herters is a full length .600 MFX Beman Classic, 50 grain insert and a 125 grain point, Total weight 430 grains- plenty for turkeys.
The 35/55 will work but you will have to leave them almost full length. Forget the angle of the nock and watch the flight of the bare shaft.
This set-up works great.
"What if I'm not good enough to group at 20 yards?" That's the problem with bare shafting it won't work if you can't keep a group. I've read that you can try it at 15 yards, but I say why not just paper tune.
Follow the arrow recommendations given and focus on practicing until you can shoot consistent groups at 15 yards. There is no substitute for practice and developing proper/consistent shot. A local club with an instructor would help cut some of the learning curve too.
Good luck, remember you didn't choose traditional archery because it's easy.
As has been said, go with O.L. Adcock's method. Trying to tune based on how the bareshaft flies and impacts the target is next to impossible. If your bare shafts group together with your fletched arrows then you are in tune. The final test is to see if your broadheads and field tips group together. If they group together then don't change anything. As far as your fletched arrows fish tailing. It could be your release. Even a perfectly tuned shaft will wobble some if you don't have a decent release. My release is far from perfect but it is pretty good, but when I do occassionally get a bad release I sometimes see a tiny wobble in flight.
Thanks for the help guys..I am going to try shooting some broadheads at 10 yards tomorrow (the maximum range Id shoot at a turkey) and see what happens..
Just out of curiosity, is broadhead tuning the same as bare-shaft tuning? If the BH hits left, its too stiff, and vice-versa, and if the broadhead hits high, my nock is too low?
Are you right handed?
QuoteOriginally posted by JBridegroom22:
Are you right handed?
Yes
If your arrow hits left the spine is too light. Adding more weight up front is doing the opposite of what you want. Less weight makes a stiffer spine. Just finished bare shafting my arrows yesterday. Take your time.
500s might be too stiff for #42. papertuning worked for me. Look up paper tuning or bareshafting on YouTube and see if that helps. Hopefully it doesn't confuse you more. Good luck.
QuoteOriginally posted by JBridegroom22:
If your arrow hits left the spine is too light. Adding more weight up front is doing the opposite of what you want. Less weight makes a stiffer spine. Just finished bare shafting my arrows yesterday. Take your time.
The OL tuning says if my bareshaft hits left, my spine is too stiff...or are you talking about if my BH hits left? Im confused, sorry..
I need to find a .600 arrow to try out to see if thats my problem..My shop didnt have any.
If you are right handed and your bare shafts or broadheads group to the left of your field points than you are too stiff. If you are left handed than stiff shafts would impact to the right of your field tips. I think the 500 spine will work. Don't cut more than 1/8" off at a time and use a heavy point.
Actually,OL says it doesn't matter how well you group.You just shoot bare shaft and fletched and average the results.You can't do it with one group.
If you can move back to 15 yds or whatever,it will help.
The good thing about trying to make your existing .500's work,is,that if you improve form and increase draw length later,you can always reduce point weight to get the right tune.if you go to .600's and a 125 gr head,and later increase draw length,reducing head weight really compromises your choices in broadheads.
Either way,I would want to tune those .500's since you have them.Once you see exactly what they need foe point weight and what their overall weight is,you can make a rational decision as to whether you need .500's or .600's.
Read OL's tuning information,thoroughly.
I didn't use ol's tuning information. It contradicted other things that I read which led to more confusion. I am new at this and am going to be going against what most people are telling you. I papertuned my bareshafts till they flew straight. It worked for me but it's going against what you are being told from most people so I am going to quit confusing you and stop commenting. Good luck. Hope you figure something out soon.
Josh
Two things come to mind. One is that I find it much more difficult to get perfect bare shaft results shooting off the shelf. But, to me, it is worth the effort. Second, last Spring I tore the rotator cuff in my bow shoulder. I didn't shoot as much and over time I lost strength. As a result my shooting form became inconsistent. This winter I started to work out using heavier weights and focused on getting the shooting muscles back to where my form, for at least 3 shots, was "normal" for me. Up until then all my efforts at tuning two new bows with bare shafts left me with headaches, as well. For me it was a simple matter of form and strength. In addition, I would say in your case, a lighter spine arrow is called for. I have also found tuning to be a non static thing. As your tuning and shooting skills get better you will probably find that over time you will be making small adjustments as things come together. It's really a process and my injury this year reminded me of that. For now, find a light spine shaft and work on shooting form so you are shooting consistent groups. Once you get more comfortable with your form things will start to fall into place. That has been my experience.
In my experience...
You CAN have two arrows rigged differently, but to the same dynamic spine in Stu's Calc and they will shoot differently out of your bow.
If you can see your fletched arrows jump, you definitely aren't there yet.
You may save yourself some time by first trying to rig up an arrow that will prove to be too weak in spine and work from there. IMO it's easy to find arrows that are too stiff.
Yes the charts can be that far off. I can shoot .500 spine arrows out of my bow 57@29, and keep my arrows over 30" long with 125's and 50 gr inserts. I can't shoot GT 3555's like that because my gpp would be too light, but they would fly like darts. I shoot cx 150's now. Way less spine than the cal. and charts call for.
And it's easier to work with arrow length rather than point weight, and they don't have exactly the same effect.
QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
The good thing about trying to make your existing .500's work,is,that if you improve form and increase draw length later,you can always reduce point weight to get the right tune.if you go to .600's and a 125 gr head,and later increase draw length,reducing head weight really compromises your choices in broadheads.
Just out of curiosity, how does my draw length increase if I improve my form? I dont understand..
Also, I tried shooting my recurve today with the 125gr Bullheads I want to try to kill a turkey with this season, and they flew just fine at close range - nothing erratic anyway. I just gotta practice a little more so I can really start stacking them up at 10 yards, and I should be good to go! I'll figure the rest of the tuning part out later..