Dave says he has to.reinforce the.riser for FF does any one shoot FF on non FF silvertips When I use to build self bows I would use 6 strand FF with out any.problems .seems to.me.it would be.in reinforcing the tips.let me know who shoots any thing diff on a non FF tip. Thanks.
I have asked Dave about this before, it involves a Dymondwood base riser and two extra "thin" lams in the accent stripe for a total of seven lams (FF model) rather than five lams (for B50 Dacron models).
I completely respect what Dave says, however, unless there was an objective test done to prove otherwise, I feel a non-FF bow/riser could handle a FF string, especially if the loops were padded. Having said this...I would not do this with MY Silvertip out of respect and the cost being too great.
My next Tip will be FF compatible. It's not a speed thing but IMO FF bows shoot tighter, quieter and have a better harmonic upon the release. FF strings are extremely durable and have little to no creep.
Kris
I own two Silvertips and neither one of them are FF. I don't want to chance hurting the bow so I stay away from FF. Do you really get any benefit from shooting FF other than a few fps?
I don't own a FF bow so I'm just curious. :campfire:
If the bowyer says it is non ff, why would you want to chance ruining a bow by using ff. My non ff custom silver tip is plenty fast with B50 and I would not put ff on it, spent too much money on it to take the chance of it breaking. I own ff bows and cannot tell the difference shooting the same arrow out of all my bows including the non ff silvertip, arrows hit the same.
The high performance strings of today do have their advantages. Not only will they provide an increase in performance but their also more durable, tend to last longer and provide us with the ability to shoot a stiffer arrow.
I've found that every bow responds differently to the use of FF. Some bows will quiet down, some will pick up some noise. Some bows will also experience a nice gain in fps while will only experience a few fps.
I love to tune and fiddle with bows and found that there is a string material for every bow that seems to work well. Some prefer dacron flemish while some work very well with dacron endless loop strings like Jon is using. My Shrew bow is extremely quiet with 450+ but noisey with Dyna 97. I'll even go as far as to say the colors of the string make a difference. Hopefully Allen (AS) will step in and support that comment. Even the wax the string is made with can affect the quietness of the string.
With that said my son has been shooting a FF string on his Silvertip for 5 years and the limbs are not reinforced. What he does do is shoot a heavy arrow and only 50lbs so I can't believe he's stressing the limb tips too much. It's a risk we take so that he can shoot a heavier arrow at a decent speed which helps in penetration.
Tim
FWIW, I put an SBD 8 strand FF on my 50# recurve, replacing a 14 strand B-50. Went up several spine weights with pretty much the same point of impact. I would guess super heavy arrows show less change. I went to a 30.5" 2219 with 200gr up front. Was shooting 2117s, same length with 175gr + 10gr on insert. Will it hurt my bow? Guess I will wait and see. I didn't pay $thousand + for my bow, though.
Thanks Tim!
I don't use FF on my Schafer's not built for it. I would if the limbs had micarta or horn though :)
I do have 2 made for FF and the performance gains are noticeable! For example, my nonFF 65 lb TD shoots the same spine, speed etc as my 56 lb FF TD! Sold me on FF! And the lighter bow is tons quieter with the skinny string! All my new Schafer's will be built for FF :bigsmyl:
If Dave still builds them Non FF I guess there can't be a good enough reason to go with FF. Otherwise that's all he would do!! Just my opinion! :notworthy: I was just out shooting my Slivertip [NON FF] with 600 gr carbons at 35 yards and doing just fine, it's B-50 or B-55 for me....cheaper to!
Ooops:)
Thanks for the example Bob. That would sell me too! I don't see buying another Silvertip till I get old like Tim and start having shoulder problems! :p
I aint no bowyer.so I shoot what he tells me too.cost to much to screw up. my tip is ff an I love it.tim how dose color affect anything.I agree with what you said in your post but you lost me when you said color matters.I was just wondering if you could please explain.just wanten to learn.thanks ED
Hey ...hey easy young man! I did shoot 15 arrows last night with my daughters 30lb bow! :jumper:
Not bad after having shoulder surgery only 15 days ago! :eek:
Your an animal Tim! :thumbsup: :notworthy: :clapper:
Ed,
Allen who makes quite a few strings for folks on this site and I had this conversation awhile back and I'm sure he'll chime in. He's noticed a difference in softness with some colors and softness in both string and wax type.
Help Allen. Tell them I'm not a crazy!
As much as I would like to jump on the "Tim is crazy" bandwagon, I have to admit he is correct in saying that even some colors of a particular string material can be quieter than others. :thumbsup:
I discontinued using a particular color specifically because it was very stiff to work with and tended to be noisier.
.....so there...Tim's not insane...at least in this circumstance! :laughing:
or who knows, maybe we both are!
I concur with Tim. One string doesnt fit all; whether its FF, Dacron, D97, skinny, pink, blue, or what have you.
My Tip is FF approved and it has a Cocobola riser. I have gone back and forth with strings on it and finally decided on a endless dacron. To me it feels better.
Tim,
You may be right about the string color, but I'm not buying the not crazy..... :laughing:
Happy to hear the shoulder is healing nicely..!
just curoius..mine is FF and AS is building me 2 strigs know..But Mike Stelega with Bruin was on the Non band wagon for a while,he's hard headed but still my friend,then woke up one day and realized the world really is round and started putting them on his bows and didnt change nothing..I just find it hard to believe the riser needs to be re-inforced,maybe the limb tips,but what do i know,I suck water and dry buildings for a livin..
Hey Jerry.......I remember when Black Widow was one of the only bowyers that would use FF strings. The probthey oust bowyers were concerned with was the string cutting into the string groves. With that concern many of them started reinforcing the tips, I think Bighorn called them bomb proof tips or something like that, but slowly one by one bowyers started giving the ok to use FF. Another concern was FF and light carbon arrows. Back than it was difficult to find carbons that had any weight to them and some folks where shooting 400 gr arrows out of 60lb bows. I had a buddy break both a Fedora and a Widow doing this. He was shooting 75lbs and 450 gr carbons, pretty much like dry firing the bow.
Today we have a much better choice of both carbon arrows and most bowyers build up the tips with micarta and pad the string loops so the stress on the entire bow is quite a concern.
Yeah Jon, that post will show my age a bit. I'm sure Tater may expand on this, he is ALOT older than me! :dunno:
One other point Jerry........ I know there are several folks on here with solid background knowledge on Silvertips but don't hesitate to ask Bob Palmer, he's been shooting Schafer bows for well over 25 years and I don't believe I've ever seen him with another brand. He's a great guy who knows how to set them up!
Im with ya Tim..Dave im sure knows his stuff,but Im able tp pick up a Non FF Silvertip,with Horn tips,but its rated for Dacron..I guess how did i get by with 20 plus self bows,using no re-inforcment and shooting 6 strand FF and no breakage,must be that duct Tape backing....
You're waaay tooooo kind Tim :rolleyes: Maybe you are crazy :biglaugh:
I know Joe Vt mentioned the use of endless loop dacron strings, probably 14 strand. They are also a nice option. They don't tend to stretch quite as much as the flemish dacron and do have a nice feel. I know Mike Fedora and Dan Toeke both prefer them on their recurves. Just a thought...
i used to do the opposite. i'd shoot dacron on my FF schafer. i now shoot FF only because i dropped some wgt and could use a little extra performance.
i would shoot whatever dave recommends, although i'm sure the bow is durable enough to shoot FF or dacron. the DW risers are very strong and alot has to do w/ draw weight. i wouldn't do it w/ 80#'s but anything under 60 i think you'd be ok.
each bowyer has their reasons for doing things and dave is as talented and knowledgeable as anyone. for example, mike hays from black canyon won't make a 3pc w/o dymondwood.
I have a nonFF tip it had dacron on it when I got it I hated the way this bow shot or felt and it was the slowest beautiful bow I had ever shot. I talked to Beth and did some research and I just could not take it any more I put fastflight on it and then put a 8 strand SBD string on it. I could not believe the difference this made to this bow it was not even close to the same bow. It felt great in the hand and man o man did it increase in speed when I got this bow it shot a 400gr arrow 157 fps after I got done working with it it will now shoot a 517gr arrow 170 fps at my draw now that is a good enough reasion for me to shoot FF! I have had no bad effects from shooting FF none and I would not keep or shot this bow if I could not shoot FF on it. Your results may vary from mine but I would think about trying FF if it were my bow. Widow
Thanks for the input Darren (widow sax) we've finally heard from a person that has actually shot a FF string on a non-FF Tip w/o the "the thing blowing-up".
In the first post of this thread, I mention the virtues of a low stretch string (Brownell Fast Flight, DynaFLIGHT 97, BCY 450, etc.) and your opinion is consistent. I have used these strings on old "crap" recurves w/o incident as well. I would like to see Blacky Schwartz conduct a test to dispel some of these myths surrounding these materials.
Kris
I have trouble understanding why all bowyers don't make there bows suitable for fast flight standard surely the difference in cost is not that great in the overall costs of building a bow.Then people can shoot what ever string they prefer.I also find it hard to understand why the riser has to be dymanwood
when so many other bowyer have no trouble with good quality exotic hard woods.
as I understand all dave is doing is reinforcing the riser..How many risers blow up..it would be the limb tips that would concern me,but if there is horn on the tips would that not be enough..
While a non ff Tip may shoot good with a ff string, is it worth it if it is under warranty? If it breaks then the warranty is void. If warranty is up then it is up to the owner to take the chance I suppose. I am not willing to take that chance on my beautiful "Lovepotion #9". I have compared the limbs and tips of it as well as my ff Tip and cannot see a difference but it is not marked ff therefore it will keep a 14 strand B50 on it.
I'm sorry...widow sax, you went from 157 to 170 FPS by using a FF string and a heavier arrow :saywhat: I really have a hard time comprehending that. Most cases I hear gains of 2-5 FPS with the same arrow.Not saying it didn't happen ....but!!! :notworthy:
Most of the anecdotal evidence/small experiments I've read about, including a few in TBM over the years, report speed gains of 5-10% for fast flite over dacron. That's significant. I shoot fast flite on all my bows now, including some old Bears. IMO, if the loops are padded, fast flight is easier on a bow than dacron because it reduces the severe limb vibration at the end of the shot, which in turn puts less stress on the riser.
Not a Silvertip but it is a non-FF bow.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=111647;p=1#000000
Hey Jon,
That's what I mentioned earlier, ff can cut right through the string groves. Wow.....
My buddy was shooting his Toelke Lynx through the chrono this morning. 7 fps difference between a skinny 8 strand d10 string and a 14 strand Dacron endless loop. Just for those who have an interest. :dunno:
tim
Hey Jon,
That's what I mentioned earlier, ff can cut right through the string groves. Wow.....
Tim
It all has to do with the shape of the nocks. Those old square corners wont take a ff string. Heck years ago I broke one limb tip with square corners with a b50 string.I find it hard to believe that a silver tip riser(regardless of material) wont take the stress of a FF string. Every other riser out there does...no problem. I wouldn't buy a bow that couldnt shoot FF anymore. To each there own though.
SL
Yeah I just don't want this to happen to anybody's bow. I would like to try FF sometime, but not on the Silvertips I have now. I'll make sure it is FF compatible. Thanks Tim!
I guess if Dave says not to use FF on my bow...I'm not going to use it! Mine shoots just fine with B-50 or B-55 !!
Who Has both..I will in a week but until then,What,, if any, vibration,Bounce,ect would you feel on a FF vs Non FF..Maybe it has to do with the lenghth of the limbs,I bought a Dale Dye,with 62" limbs dacron,After the shot I stll had Sea legs,For most of you folks like me,who buy a bow every day,you can feel what the bow is going to do by just plucking the string..It's like the limbs are pre-stresses and when you shout it No Vibrating thru the limbs..Let me know wht you feel with the 2 if any..maybe im just over-thinking this..Im liking what Orion is saying..
FF or not ff they will outlast most of us!
I have both. I haven't shot FF on the one that isn't rated for it and wont. I have shot B50 on the one that is FF rated its noticeably slower and has more vibration after the shot with B50. It may be in my mind but I notice no vibration after the shot with the bow that dacron only.
Ain't that weird..to build a bow that is designed around Dacron Only..But if it is FF you have the option to put Dacron on it..All I know is This Tip I got will drive tacks..Looking forward to getting the Non FF and see whats UP...
QuoteOriginally posted by cacciatore:
FF or not ff they will outlast most of us!
You put that very well Felix.....I have to agree!!
I'm with Tim on this one I have had a (few)Schafers and have always used ff if it was available one of my bows is at least 12 years or older still going strong with ff. warranty long gone.
Ron W I'm sorry...widow sax, you went from 157 to 170 FPS by using a FF string and a heavier arrow I really have a hard time comprehending that. Most cases I hear gains of 2-5 FPS with the same arrow.Not saying it didn't happen ....but!!!
Ron no afence taken or anything I can see how it would look wrong and I guess I schould have explane that Fastflight was not the only thing that increased the speed of my Schafer. First thing I did was to take the very large yarn silencers and the yarn wraped around the string ends and loops that took the speed up to 167 with the 400gr arrow then I put Fastflight string on it and it went up to 176 fps with the 400gr arrow and then I put a 8 strand sbd string on it with beaverballs and it shot 183 with 400gr arrow and then I tuned it for the 517gr arrow and it shot 170 with that arrow. my results may not be the norm but I can assure you that they are what I got. I live for the tec side of things have a crony and use it and experament alot to see what the results are its fun for me Thanks. Widow
:notworthy: :notworthy: