I am working on offering a 2-piece and I dont know a lot about them. I have 1 of each in my shop now and going to try one in a couple weeks.
No matter which one I decide to use it will be with a solid phenolic handle section so strength shouldnt be an issue. I know the bolt is hidden so thats a plus but I also hear with a solid phenolic handle flex can be an issue and cause a hair-line gap on the back in heavier bows?
The hinge isnt as clean looking but it would be a cheaper option since it will be an easier install. What are your thoughts?
If anybody has had any issues with either one, please let me know in a PM. Thanks
Jason, I have heard of issues with both of them. I have shot bows with both installed. The issue I had with the connection hinge was if the bow was unstrung and it will not stay together. The bow bolt I was always worried about messing up the threads unless you put the plastic protectors back on them.Prefer the looks of the bow bolt as well. Hope this helps to some degree.
Very good idea doing a voting tally beforehand.
I own a bow bolt take-down and at first was
hesitant,thinking the idea the bow was cut in
half and the line up of the 2 sections. But once I had one in my hands that bolt is super. You do not even know it's a 2 piece after it is assembled.
Ive only tried the connexion hinge, not the bow bolt out of these two.
with the Hinge i had no problems at all, it was well installed and did have no negative effects to the handling of the bow as far as im concerned. what i liked was the fool proofness of it, no way of setting it up wrong.
My thoughts (without being a bowyer) are that the hinge sits right where the most force pulls on the riser. On the belly side the compresses itself against itself and therefore there is nothing needed on this end.
With the bolt i would be concerned because the bolt sits in the middle while the main pulling force is on the back of the bow, therefore creating the gap you described also.
But as said, thats just my unproffesional 2cents.
i like the looks of the bow bolt and i like a small handle, the hinge just looks bulky to me.
Thanks everyone for the info so far.
Actually Ken I could go smaller on the handle with the hinge since it doesnt need the material around it as much for strength, it could be easily blended in flush with the overlays. Slip on a rubber Shur-Grip you wouldnt know its there except for the small indents on the sides where the hinge part is recessed. The grip would also keep it from falling apart when unstrung.
Hello Jason, I take my bows to the side of a bike almost every day.
I currently have 1 hinge bow and had a Mohawk that had it. I just went downstairs, put my bow on the bike to show you the problem I constantly have.
The connexion makes the bow completely floppy in the middle as soon as you unstring it. I tried everything, turning it every which way, even a string keeper. Unless you take it apart completely and separate the 2 parts, it's floppy.
In my case, it defies the purpose of being easier to carry. I can travel on a plane easily, but day-to-day it's so ineffective, that I take my 1-piece instead. I vote for the T/D system that keeps the bow as a one piece, unless it MUST come down.
Marco
(https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Photos/Forums/photo.JPG?w=94e9411a)
I would vote for the bow bolt or the same type system that Big Jim uses. Not a fan of the hinge myself.
Lanier
I prefer the bow-bolt and have several bows with it. The only problem is the materials used to give strength give alot of added mass weight. If I were a bowyer, I would almost certainly learn how to make bows with the sleeve method used by Big Jim or the type that is used by Nate at BAMA bows. Solid and stable without adding too much mass weight.
Never had a hinge or bolt but love the locket socket mentioned above. Looks like a one piece bow and solid as a rock with strung...imho
Ditto on the locket-socket Jason - I'd buy a Kanati TD with the locket-socket.
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
I like BigJims setup too, I talked to him about a couple weeks ago. I have profiled some handles out of 2x4's and cut it to the sleeve style but I feel it's better suited to bows like his that arent as far forward as mine. He told me what thickness of overlays he uses on his unless I did about six or seven thinner layers across the back I cant get to the thickness he recommends without cutting through the back glass.
I am not done trying it though, I do like it.
I was at Kalamazoo several years back and was shooting a 60# longbow made by another reputable boyer. Brand new bow. I had shot it 5 times and thought I might buy it. The six shot, I felt it rock a little in my and and by the time I hit anchor, the riser exploded. my side Looked like I had been hit by a brick flying at the speed of sound and bloodied up my knuckles through my glove.
No big deal as everything grew back. The first time I tried a takedown system, I thought I would give the bolt a try since of course in my mind, I would do a better job. Over 2/3ds of the riser was phenolic. Never made it past the stringing post. Aparently, the glue had voids around the bolt.
I'm not saying they are bad ideas, just not as simple as it looks.
When choosing a system for a takedown, I had narrowed it down between the carbon sleave and the conexion hinge. I Chose the sleave due to superior strength and indiscernable junction.
Jason, the only problem with this survey is that it amongst the masses with the majority not knowing the ins and outs and problems with building a bow.
I'm sure, if properly installed most all systems will work for bows in the average and lower draw weights.
When they get loose, how do you tighten them up?
I over tightend The first bow bolt I took in on trade and damaged the stop slightly. Still worked fine, but had to be real careful when lineing up upon assembly. I have very limited experience with the hinge so I can't say anything about it except that it looks like a takedown.
Just my .02.
bigjim
Jason, Call me when you get a chance. Preferably tomorrow before 3: as I will be elbow deep in swamp mud, peanutbutter, corn ,molasses and I hope HOGS tonight and tomorrow night..
bigjim
You arent making this any easier on me Jim :D
:banghead:
That knee deep mess you are heading in to sounds like fun! Good luck and I will give you a call. Thanks
I have had several bow bolts and haven't had a problem with any of them. This is at draw weights in the mid-50s. I still even have a couple that are wood only risers (no phenolic) and they are going strong.
Jason; I believe Big Jim has made the most valid point - customer input is important and you will get numerous responses stating personal preferences, but positive bowyer experience on a Kanati style bow with any system is what you are looking for. I don't know how free bowyers are with this kind of information, but I would call as many as I could and see what they have to say! Just a thought. By the way, your Kanati bow is excellent.
Thanks Gila, I have been discussing it with a bowyer who builds a similar design and he has had no problems with the bolt except on one handle with solid ebony. I can build the bow with the reinforcements needed for any of the TD options, I am just trying to gather what people like, I should have added the composite sleeve to the list as well.
I talked to Chad Holm about the bow bolt and he said he had no problem when he went with phenolic in the riser. I have a Kohannah that is action wood woth the bow bolt and it works great, but it's only 45#'s. I like the connection hinge but I'm not sure it would be compatible with your forward handle design.
Poll results are headed right in the direction I figured. The bow bolt is "in" and other systems are not, but that does not mean one is superior over the others.
There was a thread a few years ago about a nasty failure of a bow with the connection hinge. The owner was slightly injured and the bowyer was reluctant to make it right.
I had the hinge system on another make with only one minor complaint. On the first pull after stringing the bow, there was an audible popping sound, but nothing after that. I learned to live with it and really had no other compaints except the minor inconvenience when the bow was unstrung as others have mentioned.
I have never owned a bow bolt system, but have friends who own them and they all love them.
I have owned several Robertson longbows, and one recurve now, with the Connexion system. It isn't a very pretty system, although you cover up most of it with grip leather, but I have been very impressed with this system. Never any problems. Solid. Easy to put together and take apart. As a side note, these bows have ranged from 55# - 68#.
As a consumer, I would like to see the bow bolt. It's a cleaner more elegant look.
As a consumer, I like the looks of the sleeve the best. As a consumer I like the added weight of the bolt the best. As a consumer I like the reliability and strength of the sleeve the best. As an all-wood composite bowyer I haven't tried any of them yet. However when I do try to build a 2-piece takedown, it is most likely be the sleeve based on my bow designs to-date. I might also add that I am a firm believer in having a lot of weight (not size) in the riser area of a bow.
Jason, have you considered the take down system that 3-rivers offers on their Tomahawks?
I'm a long draw/heavy weight guy & that's the one t/d system that I've never had an issue with. I've been bitten twice by bowbolts shearing through the handle + a connexion hinge lose it's screws. I've no experience with a locket socket, but I can't imagine anything much stronger.
Maybe some people can post some pictures of the various designs together and apart to help show the differences.
Josh
QuoteOriginally posted by robtattoo:
Jason, have you considered the take down system that 3-rivers offers on their Tomahawks?
I'm a long draw/heavy weight guy & that's the one t/d system that I've never had an issue with. I've been bitten twice by bowbolts shearing through the handle + a connexion hinge lose it's screws. I've no experience with a locket socket, but I can't imagine anything much stronger.
What was your riser materials Rob on these exploding bows?
I have owned both the bow-bolt and conn-hinge system in longbows.The bow-bolt is the better looking t/d system in my eyes but i could see and feel that there was flexing going on when i would draw the bow.The conn-hinge feels strong but i did get a little noise from it.I have never owned a socket style that big jim offers but i have shot them on Cari-bows and Black Widows and they feel rock solid and over built for the 55# bows i shoot but i like the piece of mind in knowing its over built.
Chad
The advantage of the bow bolt IMO, is the fact that if you want a larger handle, or like a hight wrist type handle(like a Asbell grip), you can totally do it... I think.... Since I'm no bow bolt or bow expert by any means!!!!!
IF I had to pick between the 2, bow bolt no doubt. But as with some others the locket socket set up is the best in my view.
I personally do not like the look of the hinge. Like the locket or bow bolt for looks. I've never owned any of the three but if I did would prefer the latter two options. Good to hear the pros and cons of each from so many others.
I have only owned the locket socket t/d by black widow. And will be receiving a new thunder child by big Jim soon with the same socket. If I could only choose between the two in question it would be a bow bolt. IMO the hinge looks like an after thought. I just got on the list for a shrew but after all the possible issues reported with the bow bolt I'm going with a one piece.
I own a Caribow take down which appears to be just like Big Jims bows. I thought it was the best design and thats why I bought it. It is rock solid and when together looks like a one piece. Never a single problem with it. But it does take good force to pull it apart. Still, a great design and I like it and would never sell my Caribow.
Currently I'm hooked on Great Northern Bows and have a one peice from Jerry but look to add a takedown(hinge) from him next year. I shot his takedown at Kazoo and the hinge bump didn't bother me at all. Still not quite as clean look as the one piece but not bad at all. Take down is also much more user friendly/easier/faster.
i've had/have both types of t/d systems.
the bow bolt looks and feels great with the bow braced. when it works it works well, when it doesn't - due to dirt/gunk/whatever on the threads - it's a real pain that's the same as any stuck metal sleeve. a bow bolt produces unequal bow halves when taken apart.
the connexion hinge may not feel or look as good when the bow's strung up and it will wobble and/or unhinge when unbraced, UNLESS a roll up rubber handle grip is used. some bowyers use an overlay on the riser back which eliminates feeling the "bump" of the hinge. the system is a quick and easy positive lock up under the worst of field conditions. a hinge produces equal bow halves when taken apart.
i prefer the hinge. it's all good and ymmv.
I've have a MOAB with the hinge and it's been flawless, when strung you can't tell it's a 2pc. My only complaint would be that when it's unstrung its flops all over the place. I would prefer the a system that even when unstrung it stays in one piece. I would take the bow bolt system over the hinge but I would take the carbon sleeve that Big Jim uses over both in a heart beat. Simple, light and you can't tell it's a 2pc when together. And Big Jim shoots 80+ pounds on his take downs, I trust that my mid fifty pound range would be solid as can be.
Ive had the hing and didnt like it at all , I think the bolt looks alot better and it put a little weight in the riser which would make it more stable and even less shocky .
I have enough stuff in the shop to try about 10 composite sleeves like BigJims, I am going to practice with some 2x4's first to see how it goes.
With some of the PM's I have been getting about the different 2-piece systems I may just finish up the 3-piece I have been working on and offer it instead. I already have it shooting great, its smooth and fast, just not as pretty as a 1-piece in my eyes but the added weight is really nice!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/jkendall/TDRiser.jpg)
Your 3 piece is about as nice looking one as I ever seen, I like the fact that it lacks all the sharp edges. How does it look strung? I have been looking at alot of T/D bows lately & have a Mohawk T/D with the hinge & I like it but I am starting to see alot of advantages to 3 pc system, such as... spare limbs, different weight limbs & a more portable package when its taken down to name a few. Just my 2 cents worth
I don't trust the bolt and worry about separation at the riser at draw. I don't own one of your bows but your 3 pc. is the way to go.
Thanks Guys, I have to finish up a customers bow first and then I am going to finish off a set of 3-piece limbs I already have glued up. I have built dozens of them but I never really got after it to hard since I like my one piece bow so much.
Go the 3 pc it looks great and a lot less probs Thanks Shane
While I was reading through the 1st two pages of responses, my mind just kept saying "go with a 3-piece". I knew you had been working on them and just kept waiting for you to make that a standard offering. A 3-piece Kanati would be a very hard bow to beat!
I can only comment on the connexion hinge, but for my uses it has worked great. It's surprising that some dislike the way it separates when unstrung. For me that was the main reason to go with it, just unstring it and slip it into your back quiver or pack and make some dust on the mountain bike or beat feet down the trail. My bow is about 10-11 years old and holding up fine at 58 lbs.
LP
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
I prefer the bow-bolt and have several bows with it. The only problem is the materials used to give strength give alot of added mass weight. If I were a bowyer, I would almost certainly learn how to make bows with the sleeve method used by Big Jim or the type that is used by Nate at BAMA bows. Solid and stable without adding too much mass weight.
:archer: I love Big Jim's takedown system!
I said bolt as I like the way it looks over the connection hinge.
I also agree with Robtattoo. 3Rivers connection on the Tomahawk 2 piece takedowns is the best I think.
I like the slide in system better than the bolt system.
Whatever you decide I believe there is always a market for a 3-piece AND a 2 piece.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason Kendall:
I have enough stuff in the shop to try about 10 composite sleeves like BigJims, I am going to practice with some 2x4's first to see how it goes.
With some of the PM's I have been getting about the different 2-piece systems I may just finish up the 3-piece I have been working on and offer it instead. I already have it shooting great, its smooth and fast, just not as pretty as a 1-piece in my eyes but the added weight is really nice!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/jkendall/TDRiser.jpg)
I think it looks great, You could always add some accent stripes. And now you working with some exotic woods. I think it wood be sweet. :thumbsup:
Whew, Jason glad you posted that the 3 piece may still have life, :pray: . Been waiting for the introduction since our email communication.
I was hoping for the 3pc also, but either or it don't matter to me.
I have no experience with a bow-bolt but would try one or the type that BigJim or Carribow uses.
I do have a connection hinge on a Mohawk and Northern Mist Shelton and I like both. My fav' two piece TD is my Wes Wallace Royal which has a locator grip and the "small socket". It looks and feels like a one pc.
I do believe there is a market for both 2pc and 3 pc. longbows!
I would be curious as to how many bow bolts have been installed by individual bowyers saying they have not had any problems.
I have installed over 300 carbon sleave systems all in the last 3 years without a single issue. With a little wax in the sleave, they dissasemble with ease.
bigjim
I owned a Toelke Whip for a period of time with the bow bolt. Solid and easy to take apart. I'd leave the bow strung up for months at a time. Worried at first how easily it would come apart. No problem. I have no experience with the hing type connection.
i for one like the bow bolt. i had a griffin with one and had no issues what so ever. i also have a socket/sleeve system and i like that too. i give the edge to the bow bolt because i like more weight in my riser.
jason, that 3pc riser looks sweet. add some contrasting laminations and we have a winner !!
I have half a dozen bows with BowBolts and have experienced absolutely ZERO problems. Great system when done properly. The heaviest one I have seen is 78 pounds. I like Jim's socket system too.
Allan
Jason,
I'm a little biased I guess, but I think after you try the Bow Bolt you'll see that it is really pretty easy to install and rock solid if done right. As stated several times earlier in this thread, nobody has seen a Bow Bolt that has failed, but several have seen some bows with them fail. It really boils down to knowing when a Bow Bolt could or should be used and who is doing the installation. The size of the riser and the materials in it and the weight, length, and draw length are factors in the "when it should be used" part of the equasion and the "who" part of the equasion depends on the skill set of the installer and his/her attention to detail. From your reputation as a top bowyer and from speaking with you on the phone, Im sure you would have no problems. HOWEVER, what if.... there were a totally hidden three piece system that required no tools to assemble or take apart and the installation was as simple as any other 3-piece system. Stay tuned. The hardware in in the prototype stage as I type this.
Craig
Sorry, that should have been "is in the prototype stage....."
Jason,
I sure like the looks of your 3 piece riser!!! I would love to see it strung.
QuoteOriginally posted by adkmountainken:
i like the looks of the bow bolt and i like a small handle, the hinge just looks bulky to me.
x2
I had a hinge on one of my bows , had a different sound than one without
Quote..."HOWEVER, what if.... there were a totally hidden three piece system that required no tools to assemble or take apart and the installation was as simple as any other 3-piece system. Stay tuned. The hardware in in the prototype stage as I type this."
Interesting :)
Ilf? :)
Need an update from Jason, on his site I can only find the one piece.
Which Jason?
Jason Kendall of Kanati bows, he started this thread.
I emailed Jason Kendall at JK Traditions (Kanati) last Friday and his reply was received Saturday, 12/5/2015-- "Hi Greg, I see the shrews and Javaman bows with bowbolts so I am sure they would work if I ever had time to try it. Right now I dont have a drill press capable of the job but I hope to get one soon. I have a bowbolt in the shop to try sometime, I just cant seem to get far enough ahead of schedule to mess with it.
" Hope Jason doesn't mind me sharing this.
I forgot to include my question. I was inquiring about a takedown Kanati. I am thinking of trying to 'retrofit' my Kanati. I have the parts to build the box needed but haven't gotten the courage to make the cut yet.
Sounds like he never brought the three piece to market.
Inquiring minds want to know. The photos of the 3 piece seem to be gone too.
Just had an interesting email from Craig Warren about a 3 piece takedown system mentioned in this thread. He wrote, "Hi Greg and thanks for your interest. It's interesting that you ask at this moment because tomorrow I'm expecting my third prototype of the system to be delivered from the machine shop. I've been shooting a bow with the original prototype hardware for two years and it's functioning perfectly. The changes I've made have to do with the installation process (making it faster and more precise) and with getting the price down a little more by having the system made using aircraft quality aluminum rather than stainless steel. This will also help to keep the mass weight of the bow a little lighter. The final step will be to make two more bows and test them thoroughly at medium and high weights. If all goes well, the system should be available by March or April."
I love learning from all of you good people on this site. Thanks for all your input. Been wanting to try a 2 piece myself.
Hi Greg, I wouldn't try it. On every successful 2 piece there is some sort of reinforcement in the handle. There is a slim chance it could work but but just from what I have seen in my research on the matter is if a bow isn't built for it I wouldn't cut it.
Greg,
I concur with Jason. Handle needs to be constructed for the BowBolt ahead of time.
Java Man
In my opinion the bow bolt is so damn slick and adds just the right amount of weight to my toelke whip. I shoot it better and now I hold a one piece whip and it just does not compare.
QuoteOriginally posted by BigJim:
I would be curious as to how many bow bolts have been installed by individual bowyers saying they have not had any problems.
I have installed over 300 carbon sleave systems all in the last 3 years without a single issue. With a little wax in the sleave, they dissasemble with ease.
bigjim
i have owned 2 of big jims bows with the sleeves, I don't think you can get much better than his sleeve, but that is just my opinion. It is as solid as a rock. I did have 1 problem where it creeked or moved a little, i contacted him and learned that it needed wax on the sleeve(i bought the bow second hand and had no clue), there was not a drop of wax on the bow when I got it. When I put the wax on, it was rock solid! I think it added the perfect amount of weight also.
Thanks for the advice Jason and Gregg. I will listen to the experts.