Trad Gang

With the increased interest, more and more guys making or buying selfbows, and a lot more of them to be seen at every trad event, I feel it is time for a general lesson in "selfbow etiquette".

Guys who have never seen owned a selfbow are seldom up to speed on the proper way to conduct oneself when handed a selfbow to inspect.

Unlike glass lam bows selfbows are draw specific. If the bow was made for a guy with a 27" draw then that is as far as the bow can be drawn with out possibly causing damage to the limbs. Most selfbows are built with a little extra draw length allowance but not much.

For some macho reason almost all guys handed any strung bow will immediately yank it back to full draw.

My wife handed her petite little osage bow to a 6'2" young man for inspection who immediately pulled it back to about 29" before she could stop him. I had to make her a new bow.

The same thing happened to one of my friends on a fine elm bow he made for his 26" draw. A quick 29" draw by an interested observer collapsed the upper limb to an L shaped configuration.  

Proper etiquette for self bow inspection of one of my bows would be as follows;

State,"WOW, Mr Krewson, this has to be the best selfbow on the planet, possibly in the entire universe"!

Well........ you can leave out the first part.

Next as you are admiring the bow say, "I have a 28 (or whatever) draw length would it be OK if I drew your bow back"? The biggie here, ask permission and state your normal draw length. The owner will say yea or nay depending on the draw length the bow has been shot in at.

If your draw length is the same or less than the owner he might let you shoot the bow. This time ask what weight arrows he shoots. Ask to shoot his  arrows or shoot yours if if the weight and spine are similar. Don't shoot a 300gr soda straw arrow out of a bow that has been used to 550 grain arrows,it would be like dry firing the bow.

Just a little heads up on a topic that has been previously undiscussed.

You are correct. I never let anyone I do not know take my selfbow into their hands without asking them their draw length. If it is too long, I politely ask them not to draw the bow. Sometimes I have to explain this and then they say something likr " Wow, I did not know that".

Bisch

My Dad made a beautiful osage self bow years ago and while retriving arrows one guy thought he would play with his bow. Draw length was an issue and the bow broke.

Good advice here.

Good idea to make folks aware, I just hope they read this and remember what they read!!!

Etiquette of any kind seems to be dieing off. People just don't seem to think sometimes, thus my signigture on another website..."If common sense is so common, why don't more people have it?" The thought of touching anyone else's equipment, much less "trying it out" without permission would never cross my mind, guess some of us were just raised different...Just my $.02

Ya im glad i learned this a few years ago. Every now and then at a shoot i will see some one with a nice self bow and comment on it and the owner will ask would you like to shoot it. I say right off the bat "i draw a little past 31" then i hear o maybe not then I just smile and say thank you for the offer.

So this might be a good post for guys who are a new owner of a self bow and dont know the ins and outs for owning one.

I is very nice to offer your self bow up to some one to experience it but ask there draw before you do.

Excellent advice, Eric. I never draw anyone else's bow (selfbow, glass, or otherwise) without asking first. To me, It's just common courtesy.

I have been known to unstring a selfbow before handing it to someone for inspection.  

Mike

Good lesson, Eric!  I have been around archery for a long time and didn't realize this was as critical as you have described it.  

I don't think it is a macho thing that leads people to want to draw a bow as much as it is a curiosity and comparison thing.  A strung bow is made to be drawn and shot. It almost begs for it.  

But, like Jason, I never draw someone else's bow without asking their permission.

Thanks for the information.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Excellent advice, Eric. I never draw anyone else's bow (selfbow, glass, or otherwise) without asking first. To me, It's just common courtesy.

ditto

Very well said Eric.Good advice.
  Pappy

The best test you can give a self bow if your interested is to pluck the string 2-3", if its tight and has good early tension you can bet it screams and shoots flat out fast. Full draw isnt needed to know that part of it.

I always tell the interested person to please not draw as Im handing it over. Or I first ask what they draw, add 1" to that number and decide if I will let them draw it or not.

Great Advice!!!  This also applys to glass bows that are designed for a short draw.

I don't think I've ever handed anyone a bow with the expectation that they aren't going to draw it. All my bows are laminated so I don't worry much. Most are friends who are compound guys and they draw it out of curiosity not because they think they are macho. I would never pick up someone's bow without permission, but if you say hey check out my bow I likely would carefully pull it back to feel the grip and the way the limbs work. I doubt most people are aware of the difference between a self bow and glass bows in this regard. Other than reading posts on this site and having an interest in building one in the near future I wouldn't have known. I think it's a good reminder to those who own them to take special care and realize not everyone is knowledgeable about them.

This is a "Golden rule"  don't do to others, etiquette, in an increasingly "whatever" society.  Treating each other, our labors or possessions with respect should be the norm but
is increasingly not, my wife is a second grade teacher and she sees an increasing number of children who have no
Concept of etiquette, and possibly neither do their parents
So thanks for this thread, we can all do better

Exactly!

Kris

Totally agree with the theme here, but there is one exception to harming a selfbow.

And I do understand that sinew backed Owls are NOT your typical selfbow.

I have several sinew backed Owl's by Ed Scott and Ed told me that with the sinew backing, anyone can shoot them, regardless of draw. He even writes the weight @28" and out to 32". He guarantee's his sinew backed bows for life and I believe he told me he's never had to replace one. This is sinew backed only.

That's why, at Comptons, anyone can test shoot Ed's sinew backed bows as much as they like.

Anyhow, if anyone has a sinew backed Owl, use whatever caution you'd like, but Ed made it pretty clear that no harm will come to the bow.

Again, I realize this is the rare exception and not the case with 99% of the bows out there. I just want people to feel free to shoot an Owl if they ever see Ed Scott at a show.

OR....
Just say No.
A person,does have that right.LOL

The one I see a lot is when bows are for sale at a shoot, guys will try to man up and give them a super long draw like they are trying to prove how big they are.  I had a case where I yelled a serious warning at a fellow that grabbed my wife's custom short draw bow.  I watched him shoot earlier and he had a serious short draw flinch, but when drawing bows back he stood up straight and stretched them as far as he could. Him and his buddies almost went against my orders to put it back like I had no right to tell them what to do, when someone else told them they were out of line by handling bows on the private bow rack, they grudgingly put it back. If they would have jerked that bow back and damaged it, I would have broken the law. Anyone can pretend to be the big man when drawing back a light bow. One fellow let me shoot his bow, a Miller, but my draw was the same as his and I used his arrows, my arrows were actually shorter than his.

I had a Joe Mattingly self bow named "The 2 Holer" that I made the mistake of handing to a gent to hold while I got some arrows out of my truck.

I turned around just in time to see him pull it back to the point one tip rolled over and split down into the top hole.

I never dreamed that someone would just yank a bow back.

My heart sank as I knew it was going to be impossible to replace.

Joe did survive his brain cancer long enough to redo the bow making it a one holer but much shorter.

I could've kicked myself for letting anyone touch a bow that was made specifically for me and my right handed draw.

It's never happened again, nor will it ever.

God bless,Mudd

This is a great thread.  I think many people just do not know better.  It is up to the bow owner to instruct the inspector( my opinion) how to handle it.  Also I do have an Owl bow, they are pretty bullet proof, but I am still careful about just handing it over.  Lastly, people like to pic at the snake skins... not sure why they do that?  

Mudd, what a shame what happened to your bow.  A bow like that would be impossible to replace.


Bob.

Eric, I hope you are OK with this. It is self bow related.

Hey Mudd, I have an osage stave with some black marks on it that mean a lot to me. One day before Joe got sick I took that stave and met him in the parking lot at DFW airport where he worked as an engineer. Joe took a marker and laid out handle, fades, tips, etc. on the stave and told me "go for it"! I have thought over the years if I ever got good enough at making bows I might make a bow out of that stave. But then those marks would be gone. Here in north TX there are lots of bodark trees that will make lots of staves. But none of them will have Joe's marks on them. I think I'm OK with keeping that stave just the way it is. I miss Joe.

After reading this thread, I got motivated to go out and shoot my pig-nut. I must be a really good self bow maker, I need  to remind myself every so often how good that bow shoots. And no, you can't shoot it.

As most people to whom you hand a bow will not have read these posts, and it seems to be a natural tendency to want to draw a bow, it would probably be a good idea, as wingnut suggested, to unstring the bow before handing it to someone.

Or if you're in the process of shooting it when someone wants to look at it, I don't see anything disrespectful in asking them not to draw it, just like you would explain to a kid about not dry-firing it.

Of course, it would be better if everyone understood these things, but since they don't, preservation of your bow would seem to indicate the wisdom of saying something yourself.

I also hand them off unstrung. I still have people pull on the string. Id hate to have a bow damaged by someones ignorance so i wont give them the chance to damage it. They can draw it back after ive got the details clear.

Good post. May help spread the word.

Be careful of handing someone an unstrung selfbow as well, as they are likely to try to string it BACKWARDS and break it.  Don't ask.

We have probably reached the choir pretty well with this thread.

Even with my glass backed bows I'm careful of who I allow to hold it.  Some people think it's normal to draw it all the way back and dry fire it.  :scared:

I saw a guy hand his super short Kodiak Magnum to a guy at the range.  The guy was about 6'-6" with arms like a gorilla.  the bow made crackling noises when he suddenly pulled it back to full draw.

i agree and would like to add that  a guy/gal should seek permission to draw anyone's bow regardless of the type of bow it is. I mean my bows are very special to me and I dont want some yahoo screwing it up

Good info - I've never drawn a guys bow or shot it without asking first. I know it's the first thing guys do as a compound shooter drew my recurve back when he asked to see it, I turned around and closed my eye's waiting for the dry fire sound, thank heavens he didn't.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Excellent advice, Eric. I never draw anyone else's bow (selfbow, glass, or otherwise) without asking first. To me, It's just common courtesy.

x2 Jason.

My hickory bow is tillered to my 27" draw. It's 48# at that draw, but it goes up to 53# at 28". I checked it just to be on the safe side. If it's stacking that much, that's too much stress! I'm guessing 29" would be disastrous.    :banghead:  

Thanks for bringing this up Eric. I just hope the non-self bow shooters read this too. They are the ones who really need to.

I had NO IDEA that this was an issue with self bows.

That being said, I've never been comfortable drawing or shooting other people's bows, even when offered. It just feels weird to me. If I was planning to buy it, maybe, but my curiousity is always tempered with trepidation - what if I break the thing? How bad would I feel?

as a new  as i am at building selfbows, i havecome to trust more experienced builders/shooters than myself. several bowyers , batman, mr pat, stiks -n-strings, james parker, and mike treadway have all examined my work some with more intuitive pointers and some with approval or both. all in the interest in making a better bow.i trust these people with their expertise and opinions. i also usually ask if someone has had experience with selfbows. if not, i try to give a tutorial. oh, i almost forgot, i shot the first selfbow i ever made with bernie dunn.  nobody can pass up the chance to shoot with bernie, even with a new bow

Like Traxx, I will just say no. Even with glass bows, too. I had one guy pull my glass bow back and dry fire it. And that was after I had warned him not to do it.

Once again learned something new here.  Thanks!

I couldn't imagine seeing a selfbow that I put days of work into being ruined in one draw    :(    . I'm glad this was brought up. I had a giant friend of mine draw my 52" antique Kodiak Mag to at least 36" (way behind his ear and he is HUGE) My butt puckered up when i saw the limbs almost uncurl    :eek:    . To my relief and amazement, it didnt explode.

The comment about Ed Scott and his Owl Bows not having a set draw length is exactly opposite than what Ed told me a few years back at Cloverdale.  He asked thatI not draw a particular bow, with sinew on the back, to my full draw lenght while testing it.  Wood bellies are wood bellies and they can take only so much compression before the fibers crush.  I obliged him.  He was just too much of a gentleman to ignore.

When asked to see one of my self bows I alway reply, "Please don't draw it back because it might break" Than I explain that it is used to being pulled 26 inches and any further it could break.

What Christopher said!  Sinew backed bows...any wood bow is prone to excessive damage by overdrawing them.   Sinew is magic only in specific ways, but it will not protect the belly of a bow, and may even exacurbate (did I spell that right?) the problem, so be careful.

Ill third,what ChristopherO,and Mark Baker stated.I couldnt hardly believe,that those statements were credited to Ed,but,i wasnt there,so i couldnt say for shure.It does contradict,what i know and what i know of Ed though.I wonder,if there wasnt a missunderstanding,on the topic.

thanks I had no Ideal there was that much  involved.ED

Thanks for this post!

I don't think I'd ever draw someone else's bow without permission, but there is always the anomoly, and I have monkey arms and wide shoulders, too.

Did not know that. Thanks again.

QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
I have been known to unstring a selfbow before handing it to someone for inspection.  

Mike

Me too--always!

I shoot annually at a couple of Mtn.Man rendezvous,that originally were all black powder,hawk+ knife events that now have primitive and trad archery courses.The clubs rules for primitive are:selfbows,no shelf,no plastic nocks,trad is recurve/longbow regular plastic nocked arrows.Because around peoples camps there is always blanket goods to be sold/traded,you really have to be carefull and keep a close eye on your self bows as they are a magnet to non archer traffic/visitors.I have seen many a train wreck and so learned the hard way.Great post,awareness is the answer.

Well said Eric!

Thanks for the post Eric!  I did not know the draw length restrictions on selfbows.

Good stuff Eric!

Yeah...good stuff....

Someone needs to tell those folks that post shooting videos on you tube that it aint cool to hold them selfbows at full draw for 5 seconds either.

Dang it just irks me that they are ruining those bows         :(         :(    

My selfbow etiquette is as follows;

Never leave my bow strung - prevents set

Never lean it against something - it may fall over and break a tip

Never lay it down - someone could step on it

Never hand it to someone else - They may over draw it

Never, never hand it to a woman - she may shoot you with it

 :smileystooges:

Had a decent looking Ben Pearon fiber backed bow off theauction place.  Just got comfortable with and I handed it to my wifes uncle.
He promptly drew it back BEHIND HIS EAR! with his arm stuck straight out.
It survived till the next session and broke after grouping 3 arrows touching at 10 yards.
I have another BP coming in hickory, I will not hand it to him.

Is there an Old Bow Sticky?

Great post.

Although I know I, personally, would be paranoid about drawing any wooden bow that didn't belong to me, this is something that I don't think most of us with no experience have ever thought about. I'm just getting back into archery and self bows weren't around when I shot. I doubt it would ever cross the mind of the average compound shooter that the bow might break. You have to remember, the majority of archers have only dealt with compounds which have a "wall." There's really no way to overdraw one of those.

I want everyone to know I'm not a violent guy, or even really what I'd consider tough, or theatening. But this is what happened:

Once at a 3/d shoot, I leaned my selfbow against a bush to remove my jacket and I had a guy, I didn't even know, just walk up and grab my selfbow.  Fortunately, since there's no let off, he got it to a bout 25" and it was too heavy for him.  As I took it back from him, I quietly and politely informed him, that when he grabbed my bow, it was the closest he's ever come to feeling a steel toe boot on the side of his face without it actually happening. He started to say something, he stopped myself, and walked back to his buddys.  Not exactly ettiquete but he probably won't do it again.

I had no idea that this was an issue. Most people hand me a bow and say shoot it. Probably doesnt matter too much with me since I am only a 26" draw though. Good info for in the future.

That reminds me of a story that happened at one fo the early MoJams.  A well known wood bowyer that worked in mostly what I call second tier woods showed up with a beautiful bow he'd built from ipe.  He was sitting around the lantern one night (fire wasn't allowed) and handed the bow to Connie.  She asked if she could draw it and he said something smart like "if you think you can" so she pulled it back slowly.  At about 24" it blew up into about 12 pieces.  He was pissing and moaning that she'd overdrawn his bow and broke it.  For the rest of the weekend everybody that walked by Connie hid their bows.  LOL

Mike

I do not hand a strung bow to anyone these days without clearly telling them not to draw it and why.  I recently built a bow for my father and my 6'2" brother who is 250 lbs of solid muscle drew it back to full draw.  Snap!

Luckily it gave me and my dad an excuse to teach my brother the noble art of bowmaking to replace that particular bow, so I consider that bow to have been a noble sacrifice.