I have a theory that I would like help from you guys to test. The theory is: Using a point of aim shooting system, it is possible to use the same point of aim for different yardages. Point of aim is different than Gap shooting and some confuse the 2. With my particular setup I am able to use the same point of aim from 10 yds. to 25 yds. I want to find out if, using other setups, will it work. In my next posts, I will try to explain with pictures what I'm talking about and how this can be used in hunting.
OK, the difference between Gap and Point-of-Aim (by the way, POA is also, often, confused with point on, 2 different things as well): Gap, as an aiming system, is the distance between the point of the arrow and the point of impact as you view it at the tip of the arrow. For example, my gap is about 1" at 25 yds. and it is about 2.5" at 10 yds. Here is my view at 10 yds:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/grndhntr/10ydPOA.jpg)
...and here is my view at 25 yds:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/grndhntr/25ydPOA.jpg)
Doug,
Are you shooting split finger; one over, two under or are you shooting three fingers under?
In other words, it might work for one, but it might not work for the other.
On the first picture, you can see where I shot an arrow and hit the target. I have found that if I put the tip of my arrow just under the target and shoot anywhere from 10 yds. to 25 yds, I will hit approx. 20" above that aiming point. You can see that the "gap" (the distance between the tip and the point of impact) is very different in these 2 pictures but the POA stays the same. For less than 10 yds. and more than 25, I have found that I need to reduce my POA to hit the same spot.
Night Wing, I am shooting 3 under. I agree, it may not work for other bow/arrow combinations or shooting styles. That's what I would like some other guys here to test. I have found that my POA from 10-25 yds. is 20". I know that other setups will be different. Someone else might have a 12" POA and another shooter might have a 30" POA. What I want to know is can the POA stay consistent at different yardages with other shooters.
I think I understand what you are trying to say here. Even though the gap between the arrow tip and target is very different, the arrow tip is pointed at the same place for both shots.
Bisch
Here's how this might be helpful for hunting: Here's what I would see with my POA on a bull elk at 10 yds:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/grndhntr/PointofAimBull2.jpg)
The "crosshairs are where I would put the point of my arrow to shoot this bull at 10 yds. and the black dot represents my point of impact.
And here's what I would see at 25 yds on the same bull:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/grndhntr/POABull25yds.jpg)
Notice the consistency in my POA-20" but my gap changes dramatically.
So when you hold the tip on the object the shelf is in a different location relative to the two different distances. After referencing the shelf and then drawing to anchor the arrow should hit on target. Gap aiming?
How'd I do?
Rusty
What do you mean by "reduce" your point of aim? Lower or raise the tip of the arrow?
So, how to test this for yourself: Put a mark on a target near the bottom. Shoot 3 arrows from 10 yds. using the arrow point on the mark. Measure the distance from the mark to the average point of impact. Now, go back to 15 yds., 20 yds, 25 yds. etc. See if the POA stays the same for you at different yardages. I would like, if you do this test, to hear how it works for you. What is your bow/arrow setup, etc.
The first photo I see dirt between the target and shelf, second is grass and dirt. Both photos have arrow point at same intended point of impact. This is before bow is drawn to anchor.
I'm guessing
Rusty
El greco, did I answer your question?
I shoot 3under too. By your elk example, I'd be shooting the 25 yard elk in the knees if I held the tip of the arrow in the crosshairs. Not sure what you are doing to aim at the knees and hit the lungs at both distances unless you are changing your anchor point or string walking?
Bisch: Exactly!
I'll try it
Rusty
Steve, look at the difference in gap in the first 2 pictures compared to the leather side plate on my riser. The POA stays the same but the gap is completely different for the 2 shots. These pictures aren't perfect because I was holding the bow/arrow and the camera at the same time while trying to simulate my view at full draw, but I think they make the point (pun intended).
Rusty, I was trying to take a picture of what I see at full draw but my photo isn't perfect. When I shoot this way, I try to hold my POA on the same spot (20" below my intended point of impact at full draw) and my arrows hit remarkable close to the same spot at all yardages from 10-25 yds.
Doug. Are you shooting very light arrows? If I were to perform the test you outlined, holding the point of the arrow at the same line and shooting two groups of arrows at 10 and 25 yards, the 10 yard group would hit 9-12 inches above the line, and the 25 yard group about 3-4 inches above the line. I'm having a hard time seeing what you are pointing out in your pictures. A small change at the back of the arrow (ie. tucking your chin slightly) can change your sight picture dramatically.
Steve, your form must be consistent (as in any shooting style) for this to work. The distance between the nock and your eye must stay about the same for your "back sight" to be consistent. I am shooting very heavy arrows-about 15 grains per pound for my bow.
For hunting with my setup, I need to know where 20" is for individual animals that I am hunting. For instance, on an adult elk, 20" below my intended point of impact (lungs) is about the knees. On a deer it would be about right between the knee and the hoof, etc. With this system, I don't need to know what the yardage is, as long as I'm between 10 and 25 yds., my typical hunting shot.
Steve, to test this, use your normal form but don't look at your intended point of impact (where you want to hit) but just pay attention to putting your arrow point on a mark below your intended point of impact and see where your arrows hit at different yardages.
For my set up shooting split fingers, the point where the arrow and my index finger touch is about five feet on the ground below the deers feet on level ground, this remains the same from 16 yards out thirty-five yards at which point that point of aim raises until it is on target at 64 yards with my slower bows to 72 yards with my faster bows.
Pavan, that is exactly what I'm looking for. In your case, it may not be a very usable way to aim, since holding 5 feet low on an animal or a target is hard to judge, but it sounds like your POA is consistent at different yardages. So, it sounds like your "point-on" (the yardage where your arrow point is touching your point of impact) is 64 yards (on your slower bows). For my shooting style and bow/arrow setup, my point-on is 35 yds.
Doug, have you used it in actual hunting situation?
I find it interesting, but to easy for me to mess up some thing....
Get some of the old archery hands in this. They are probably miffed as your terminology is not what they would call it. Modified gap?
David, I have not tested this in a hunting situation. I have used gap with all my traditional bowhunting kills so far, but I like this method better as it doesn't require judging distance for me as long as I'm under 25 yds. Roadkill, which terminology is different? This is how POA and Gap was explained to me and is what I have read. Point of Aim typically was used in jolly old England on target rounds where the distances were really long and the anchor points were really low.
Yes, Doug, I get you. For me, I simply put that arrow tip right on target no matter what range out to about twenty or twenty-five yards, depending on the speed of the set-up. I shoot three-under. I sold a great bow that just would not work like this, making me try to put the point well under the target at those ranges in order to hit it.
I must be missing something here. Wouldn't your gap be 20" in all shots under 25 yards?
Doug
You know I tried this and it works well for me. With my set-up my POA is 15" below intended impact from 10 to 25 yards. The only problem I had trying this system was changing my focus from my intended point of impact to putting the end of the arrow 15" below it. Just takes some practice to adapt.
Haven't used it hunting but may next fall.
Great thread!
Wayne
Once i hit anchor my arrow tip disappears as i concentrate on the POI. What do you call that?
Now if i start looking at the tip of my arrow instead of the POI the target or critter disappears.... then it either runs off, or moves on me. :dunno:
wouldn't it be easier to just tune your bow and your shooting style to hit where you are looking?
This seems like too much to think about at crunch time to me.
It certainly can work with the right combo of line of sight and trajectory. I prefer to just concentrate on where I want to hit and let my subconscious keep track of the rest of the sight picture, but could be usefull to know.
(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab184/GBPHunt/PointofAimBulltestcopy-1.jpg)
I think in a hunting situation it would be very hard not to look at the Animal where you want the arrow to impact.
If you have a clear shot as in no branches or brush to worry about no problem, but if you are not looking at your point of impact you could have a problem.
I think it would be distracting trying to shift your focus back and forth between the point of impact to be sure you have no obstructions and the point of aim.
I realize this is no more than 20 inches but focus is focus I think I will stick with one spot JMO
Pat
What if you have to take a seated or kneeling shot? Does this change the POA?
I also shoot 3 under with a high anchor point,My arrow is pointed right under what i want to hit out to about 25 yards and at 30 it covers what i want to hit.Im not sure how you get so much rise on the arrow you must have a low anchor point.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Once i hit anchor my arrow tip disappears as i concentrate on the POI. What do you call that?
Now if i start looking at the tip of my arrow instead of the POI the target or critter disappears.... then it either runs off, or moves on me. :dunno:
wouldn't it be easier to just tune your bow and your shooting style to hit where you are looking?
This seems like too much to think about at crunch time to me.
This is EXACTLY why I have never been able to get the Gap Shooting thing. I have talked to many people who Gap Shoot and think I understand the system pretty well. I shoot a LOT of 3D and see a definite advantage to target shooting using th Gap method. But, if I try to consciously see where my arrow is pointing (even by seeing it in my peripheral vision while trying to stay focused on my target) I lose all focus on my target and can't hit the broad side of a barn.
I like your ideas here and see where it could be of an advantage to some people. For hunting I can see where it could have an advantage over regular Gap Shooting because it takes all the yardage guessing out of the equation and makes aiming the same for a wide range of distance.
Bisch
Both owning and maintaining relaxed control throughout the complete shot execution enables the archer to pick, develop and choose one's personal aiming-type preference. Try to keep in mind that it is imperative to engrain the former before attempting to adopt aiming types. It is quite advantageous to own several different types in order to immediately accommodate different situations.
For me, one system I use is a sight window split vision system:
Close target – I say to myself "1 inch"
~ 10 yard target – I say to myself " 1.5 inches"
~ 15 yard target – I say to myself "1"inch"
~ 20 yard target – I say to myself "1/2 inch"
~ 25 yard target – I say to myself "Point on"
The aforementioned system keeps me focused and less prone to second guess during the shot. At anchor and with bow arm stable on the target I may repeat slowly to myself the committed assigned window, then release. My misses do not come from this aiming method.
Note: The commitment is made before I start the shot sequence.
...........If I look at my arrow, then I look at it miss.
Friend, what you describe is what I would call shooting gap and what I believe Howard Hill called a split vision system. Howard Hill used this but I think that his fast shots were more instinctive. I think this POA system could be used effectively, esp. for a new trad. shooter, and then phased into more of an instinctive shot.
Kirk, sounds like you are shooting instinctive.
The less you acknowlege the arrow, the more instinctive the shot.
I wonder if this explains anything?
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh248/Famscoot/Archery/PointOfAim.jpg)
That drawing only shows half of what is being stated in Dougs system. It shows the point of aim being the same for different distances but does not show how much different the gap is at those different distances.
Bisch
Having the exact POA from 10 to 25 and the same impact spot just doesn't make sense to me. I believe everyone will have 2 impact distances that have the same POA but everything in between the 2 points will be high hits. Due to the arc of the arrow it's virtually impossible.
The arrow starts off under your line of vision, rises to cross your vision line (10 yards), then spends some time above the line of vision until it drops back to the line of vision (25 yards). The arrow has to impact high between the 2 distances.
I think the arrow trajectory that is mentioned above is why close shots (closer than 10 yds for me and my set-up) impact high and why shots longer than 25 yds impact low. The range that POA works well in is due to the trajectory of the arrow.
I suppose it is different for different set-ups, anchor points and shooting styles.
The neat thing about it is not having to judge distance, other than the target being "in range".
When I first tried this system I immediately shot a fist size group of 4 arrows... shooting at measured ranges of 10, 15, 20 and 25 yds. All using the same POA (15" below intended impact). I was amazed.
Mark of WV. Thank you for that drawing. I tried to do a drawing like that just this morning to explain this to someone at work. It does show that you have to raise your arrow tip to hit at 25 yds using the same POA (different gap-same POA). Now, we could talk about this and how it can or can't work for months, but what I would like is for you, random shooter, to go out to your back yard or your local range and try it, like Fnshtr did (thanks Wayne!) and then tell me if it did or didn't work for you. I don't want to change the way you shoot, but I want a system that will work for the new trad shooter or the hurt shooter, like me who can't practice enough to be a good instinctive shooter because of injury. I just need data from you. Thanks.
This is similar to the way Hank's pointy system works. I point at what I want to hit with my bow hand finger and I'm on from 10 to 30 yards. I'll try using the point of the arrow to confirm it. What makes this work is visual perspective ie things look smaller the further away they are. Rail road tracks are a good visual example. This show how the gap automatically gets smaller the further away the target is.
Now, Random Tradgang Shooter, If you are willing to try this and get back to this thread with your results, please include the following: #1 Your setup including bow weight, arrow length and weight. #2 Do you shoot split finger or 3 under? #3 Did it work for you to use the same POA at different yardages? How wide a range were you able to use the same POA? #4 What is your POA? For example, for me, it is 20" and for fnshtr, it is 15".
...and so, if I were to reply to this with my test results, it would look like this:
#1 42#, 32", 630gr.
#2 3-under
#3 10-25 yds.
#4 20"
Just to keep it simple, it would be helpful for me if you simply respond in this format. Then you can add your comments under the results. Thanks
#1 46#, 28.75", 630 gr.
#2 3-under
#3 10-25 yds.
#4 15"
Thanks fnshtr. Anyone else? I would like to get maybe 20 or more of you guys to try this if possible. Another little hint: Sometimes I focus on the POA and the arrow point below the point of impact(POI) and sometimes I still focus on the intended POI and I just note when the arrow tip is at the POA in my periferal vision. One might work better than the other for different shooters.
When I shoot I don't really point of aim shoot, I just know that is where that spot is indirectly. The reason for that, with me putting the arrow just shy of and behind the front hoof on the deer, is because when the deer is closer it is visually larger, then as the deer gets farther away it is smaller, so I actually do raise the bow as the distance increases, it is just that the target is smaller. That would also explain how I can shoot over the back of a yearling and catch myself over analyzing my aim, when I was filling doe tags, they are shorter. I also shoot tighter groups when I don't get all mechanical with aiming and do just as Hill said "bore a hole through it."
Pavan, You described POA exactly "I actually do raise the bow as the distance increases, it is just that the target is smaller.". It sounds like you have about 25"-27" POA. I also shoot better with a more "instinctive" shot, at least at closer ranges up to 15 yds.
Doug, I know exactly where you're going with this. And yes, it can work in a hunting situation. I used it to tag a late season doe a number of years ago, but my target panic prevents me from using it now.
For the guys that have their old Traditional Bowhunter magazines, go back to the June/July 1999 issue and read Roy Marlow's "Advanced Aiming" article on page 70. He explains it very well with illustrations.
I believe the concept Doug is getting a grasp on is, within certain parameters, on close shots on game, the arrow impact will be a higher lung hit. On the longer shots within the pre-determined parameters, using the same "point-on" picture, the arrow would strike lower in the chest.
The variable involved is the size of the target. Going from an elk to a rabbit is sure to create some issues, but for someone that just hunts whitetails for example, the target is always relatively the same size.
I don't recall the equipment used on that doe, but it worked like a charm. By getting the arrow right up under my eye while shooting three under, I was able to use the bottom of the deer's chest as my point-on aiming location. That was my intended goal, because I didn't want to be looking so far below the intended inpact point. I had a second nock set about an inch or so below the other one. I placed my index finger right under that one, rather than right under the nock. Through experimenting with the lower nock set location, I was able to keep my arrows in the chest of the deer target within my usual whitetail hunting distances, all by just placing the front of the arrow on the bottom of the deer's chest. It's actually easier to do than it is to explain.
Hope this helped.
Nope
Did not work for me. Every 5 yards back my point of aim had to drop. Keeping the same point of aim made my point of impact rise.
#54 29.5" 620gr
split
10yrd=15", 15yrd=20", 20yrd=24", 25yrd= 28"
While I did not pay attention to the "gap" (not sure exactly what that would look like in my sight picture) I would say my gap stayed much closer to the same than did my point of aim.
Neat experiment for me though. Thanks for making me think.
I played with it a little today but like I said earlier, when I try see where the point is at I lose focus. I could not get any kind of consistency to try to come to a meaningful conclusion and gave up after a while.
Bisch
To develop instictive shooting ability at ranges further than 20 yards takes time and the right practice. I see this POA system you describe as very hard to use in a real hunting situation.
For a beginner who wants to hunt with a traditional bow, there is nothing wrong with using a simple pin sight. A lot of field archers used them in the 50,60 and 70ies. I tried a simple sight like that on a Bob Lee bow from the sixties. With a correctly spined arrow (my test arrows were overspined) my left and right would have been better and I used only one pin.
I used this system the first time from 10-25 yards. All what I decided was: Is it a short, medium or long shot? Medium the pin was spot on, short you had to put the pin a little under your intended spot, long a little over intended point of impact. Basically, the pin sight is more gap shooting, but very easy to master. It took me about 10 shots to dial the one pin in at about 17 yards. Then another 10 shots or so to see how far up and down I had to go with the pin.
After that I did some quick hunting style shooting at my 3D deer. About 50 arrows. Not one of the arrows was missing the kill zone and every shot was taken from a different position/ distance.
Another thing is to accept an approximate sight position, approximate is ok. We're not blowing off nocks we train to hunt. If you hit the deer in the heart or an inch higher and double lung it, it makes no difference in the ethical outcome. My shot took me about 1- 1,5 seconds longer to take than shooting instinctively and I am shooting usually very fast.
I personally think it makes no sense to have a POA somewhere in the landscape or in the air shooting at something that "acts independently".
A normal target does not act independently but stands still and doesn't move. Much more prone to optical delusions in the woods,too.
My final opinion: The recurve field bow from the 60ies/early 70ies was an absolute deer killing machine. With an elk it is even easier, because of a bigger killzone.
Doug what you describe was in a TBM article several years ago. I think it was by Roy Marlow. I will try and find it. It does work but will obviously be different for various forms and set-ups. This is the same as using the maximum point blank range with rifles by using the area in which the projectile remains in the kill zone when held at a particular spot.
Just saw Knobby had it posted above. June/July 1999 issue of TBM.
I'm not doing it right I suppose because I'm no where close to what your looking for:
50#@28" 2016 165gr. 29", draw length 28", split finger, arrow weight N/A
10 yds. point about 18 feet in front of the target, now from 45-50 yds. I hit the bag holding point on the bag. I don't believe this is what your after, sorry.
Rusty
60@28 610gr
2" under at 10
1 1/2" under at 15
right under at 20
cover at 25
3 under middle finger in corner of mouth and index finger in cheek bone.
Thanks for trying it Bisch, Ben, and Bel007.
I string walk so I can place the point of the arrow on the spot I want to hit, no matter the distance.
I shoot 3-under. My index (top) finger touches the arrow nock on shots that are just a tad over 30 yards. I shoot about 4 inches high at 30 yards - I suppose I'd be dead on around 35.
OK, I got curious because it seems to be that this works well for shooters who shoot 3-under that anchor with their index finger in the corner of their mounth. A higher or lower point doesn't seem to work. I just shot using different anchor/finger placement just to see. Here's what I found. Remember that I normally shoot 3-under with my index finger in the corner of my mouth and I have a consistent (from 10-25 yds.) POA of 20". I tried shooting split-fingered with the same anchor point. I found that my POA was consistent from 15-30 yds. and the POA was about 40" (not very useful for hunting), but when I shot from 10 yds, it was way different. Then I shot 3 under but raised my anchor point about an inch and a half. Shooting like this my POA was not consistent at all as I changed yardages. It seems to be that, for this to work, at least for me, the arrow nock has to be about 2 1/2" from the center of my aiming eye.
It is not possible to have the same poa from 5-25yard. It may look that way or be "close" especially if you are measuring the gap at the riser, and have a fast bow.
Here is a balistics calc that will tell u exactly where your arrow is at a given distance. It is a real benefit to understand the exact arc your arrow is taking.
http://www.outdoorsden.com/archery/archbal.asp
Your arrow is rising to HALF your PO distance then FALLING to your PO distance and beyond.
IF you have a 40yrd PO for example your 10y and 30y poa is the same.
The shape of "your arc" is a result of your setup and shooting style.
Rusty, it seems that your POA is way too long for this to work consistently (it would be difficult to judge 18' in front of a deer) and that your point on is about 45 yds. If you were to change to 3-under (get your nock up closer to your eye), it might work, based on my experience. Ben, you may have too high of an anchor for this to work. This is some good information for me. Again, I'm just looking for info. and I'm not trying to change the way that individuals shoot. Thanks guys.
Ok will take a stab at it. I am fairly new to trad (trying to ween off the wheelies) I wish I had the Hitman bow I just tested to do this as it was much faster and flatter shooting than my WARF bow. But here are my results shooting at a very light weight (limbs I used to build my form)
38# 27 inch 510grain
3 under
10-15 yds 10inches under
20 yds 10 inches above
1st group at 10 yds, red dot is POA
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/pier_afficionado/Skitched-image01.png)
2nd group from 15 yds same POA
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/pier_afficionado/Skitched-image11.png)
3rd group at 20 yds using same POA (did not go so well so only shot 2 arrows lol)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/pier_afficionado/Skitched-image21.png)
Adjusted to my normal shooting reference point at 20yds and these were my resut. Holding about 8 inches above where I want to hit. Granted I believe this is due to my light weight limbs and would try this again with heavier bow once I get my hitman at 45lbs, should make a little difference.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/pier_afficionado/Skitched-image31.png)
:knothead:
#1 50#@28
#2 3 under
#3 10-15 yds.
#4 14"
First time I've tried three under, very strange.
14" is the point of impact above where I was aiming the arrow tip
Rusty
I tried a bit today. Kinda like Bisch said. When I look at the arrow my shooting goes to crap purty quick.
I really took time to focus and bare down and put the tip of the arrow probably 1.5 ft below the spot I wanted to hit and hit dead on. that was at 15 and at 25 I hit maybe 6" low same point on.I shoot a fairly "rainbow" set-up. 47@27 Mohawk and 550 grain arrow. The Mohawk is fine bow but at my Draw length and the fairly heavy arrow at 47 pounds it drops purty quick but is a killer.
Kinda cool though and I enjoyed the "test". I struggled and strained to keep the point on the spot and hit fairly good every shot. I went back to my style afterward and made very good shots at ease. I like just looking at my spot and not aiming.Works best for me.RC
My sentiments too, RC especially the struggle and strain keeping the point on the spot
Rusty
QuoteOriginally posted by Doug Treat:
Friend, what you describe is what I would call shooting gap and what I believe Howard Hill called a split vision system. Howard Hill used this but I think that his fast shots were more instinctive. I think this POA system could be used effectively, esp. for a new trad. shooter, and then phased into more of an instinctive shot.
Kirk, sounds like you are shooting instinctive.
Even if focusing on the spot you want to hit is considered "Instinctive" there is still a subconscious relation between your sight window location, or your arrow tip. if you go out in shoot in total darkness at a glow stick, you realize right now that something is missing.
In my case i think it's more like a peep sight where i just focus on where my point of impact is going to be and the the shelf and arrow tip go a self centering think....
Now if i go thinking about it... and looking at the point of the arrow or consciously centering the shelf window it doesn't work for me.
What i find myself doing on long yardage shots like 60-80 yards is focusing on a spot above the target. on a 35 yard shot i focus about 6"-8" over where i want to hit.
I'm a good sport and I tried your test last night though.... I just couldn't get anything consistent going...Kirk
And another variable you raise and lower your nock height changes the gap.I set my bows up for the point just below at 20 yards.Arrow weight to pounds of bow make a big difference.If i put a 660 grain arrow my bow drops much quicker,for me the 10GPP works best very fast and flat shooting.Kirkll if i also just look at my arrow i don't shoot very accurate ,I stare at the spot i want to hit draw my bow and i see the arrow in my secondary vision automatically centers my bow and adjust for the up and down .Works great for me.I really dont think about distance unless 10 yards and under or over 25 yards.
I did a few more tests today and now I think I must have stumbled onto the perfect setup with my bow/arrows/arrow length/arrow speed/3-fingers under draw/anchor point/etc. for this to work for me. I took one of my arrows and added about 300 gr. to it as a test so that it was about 900 gr. Instead of a 20" POA, I had a 10" POA but it was only good from 10-20 yds. It was about point on at 25 yds. Then I tried a really light arrow-about 375 gr. (same bow) I found the POA at 10 yds. It was about 35". Then, at longer distances, my POA increased a lot. I didn't figure out what it was at each distance, but noticed that I hit higher (holding the same POA) at each 5 yds. farther from the target. I guess, if anyone wants to shoot this way for hunting, so that you don't have to judge distance between 10-25 yds., I can say that, from my experience, you can get the same POA from 10-25 yds. if you shoot a 32" arrow, with a 250 gr. point, weighing 630 gr., flying about 145 fps from your bow and you have an anchor point that gives you about 2.5" between your eye and the nock of the arrow, and your hat is on backwards . If you do all these things, you have a 37% chance of making this work. Hope that helps :^). Doug
I had an earlier post that was "non-sense"... sorry about that!
I have enjoyed this thread... thanks Doug... and all "the test shooters".
I shot my new SBD "skinny" string yesterday and LOVED it. I'm anxious to start shooting more again and will be trying some different methods.
FUN FUN FUN.
Didn't work for me. I shoot split,anchor at the corner of my mouth. My POA at 15yard produces a 20" high shot at 25 yards.
Thanks all for the info. It seems that, for this to work, all the stars must be aligned (and somehow, they are for my setup) so this won't work for most shooters. This has been a great learning experience for me so, a big thank you to all who tried this and got back with what you found. Doug
Doug,
Good topic. I read most of the correspondence over the past couple weeks, but I've been busy and have not replied. If my reply is a repeat of someone else's I apologize.
Our set up must be very close. At eight to eighteen yards my arrow point can be on the same spot on the target for the arrow to hit the bullseye. For me that spot (gap) is approximately twelve inches below the bullesye. I have thought about this phenomenom long before you started this topic but never long enough to come up with a theory. My theory hinges on this key point. My bullseye is two feet off the ground. (If our bullseye is at eye level, I'm not sure my next statements apply) We all know that our arrow is flying in an arc almost from the point of release. Initially we think our arrow is flying flat from eight to eighteen yards. But it is not. When we are eight yards out the arrow, at full draw is pointed downward to some degree. (Assuming our target is lower that eye level) As we move further from the target the arrow angle, at full draw, gets a little flater. In a way this is built-in compensation, however minor it is.
. The thing that one day I hope to experiment with is a bullseye at the same elevation as my eye. This would make the arrow angle flat at the start. As I move back there would not be any built in compensation, except for narrowing the gap. I would be interested in the elevation of your bullseye.