Trad Gang

I was drawn to the longbow by a thirst for more of a challenge, only to find that I have felt like more of a true hunter than ever while carrying it. There is so much more of a spiritual side of things while hunting with Trad Gear. I feel more connected with God and nature in general. I completely realize that I'm still hunting with "technology" far superioir to what the Inidians carried, but it's still a stick and a string.
I took the challenge head on knowingly giving up at least 50% of my effective range to hunt with the long bow. It was my personal choice to do so. Noone forced me to choose the longbow.
So what I have a hard time understanding is all the hate for the other hunting tools? We have chosen a higher level of challenge but berate others for their accomplishments with "easier" equipment. How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?
Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

QuoteOriginally posted by Buxndiverdux:

Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

I hope so too

:campfire:  

Since I don't fit into the category of looking down on other ways of hunting, I'll just sit back and see which or how many rabbit trails this one leads me.

God bless,Mudd  :archer:

Speaking for myself, I took up the recurve after trying one of the newer cam bows and finding that the blamed thing was so fast that I couldn't hit anything with it.  My son uses a cam bow and hits with it like a rifleman.  I just feel more comfortable shooting my KMag.  I'm also the kind of guy that feels more comfortable with a peep sight on my rifle instead of a scope, namely because that's how I learned to do it.  In my mind, to each his/her own, but I'm glad for ALL the archers out there, because when push comes to shove, we're all in the same boat when it comes to support.  Just my 2 cents.

The only place I have noticed that animosity is online or with pretenders. I admit animosity to certain "devices" now used in archery seasons by non handicapped users but have no animosity towards other methods if used in the appropriate seasons. "It is not what is in a hunters hand but rather what is in their heart". I know real hunters and real turkeys in both camps.

I felt that same way when I bought my compound bow.  I gave up 10 times my range to pursue game with a greater degree of difficulty, and I found myself scoffing at rifle hunters.  However, I still take the rifle out from time to time (when I can't seem to get the little boogers in range!!).  I just got into trad hunting like 2 weeks ago!  I haven't yet put my bow in the woods, as I'm still waiting for the stain to dry as we speak (put final coat on it at 6:30 this AM).  But I agree 100% with the spiritual part. I'm kind of barbaric, so each time I accomplish something, I have to go for the next degree of difficulty.  After I accomplish my goals with trad gear, I may try the spear!  Then the hands!  Well, that may be a little overboard.  But I do feel a certain connection with nature and God when I go primitive.  You get a better sense of appreciation for everything around you when you have to rely on your senses and skill to be perfect rather than sitting in a box and waiting for an animal to walk out far enough from you that he can't see, hear, or smell you! Plus, I have a huge obsession with history, and the closer I can get myself to that period of existence, the better it makes me feel!

My first bowhunting was with a Bear Alaskan. My granddad used recurves and I was influenced by him. I tried the compound and found out I had more fun and enjoyed the recurve more. I have found stickbows to work better for me in hunting situations.

I don't care what another guy uses and I have had no problem hunting with guys who use compounds. The compounds just aren't for me.

I find quite the opposite.  I believe trad hunters are typically more accepting and appreciate the hunting choice of others.  Trad hunters just choose a more difficult means.  I watched a Jim Shockey show and what he said really rings true to me....bottom line he ended up saying the  more difficult tool chosen to hunt with the greater the reward and feeling of accomplishment.  At the end of the day it is a personal choice and I'll congratulate a successful hunter no matter what weapon is used.  My hunting has changed from rifle to shotgun and crossbow to compound and finally to trad.  I've always admired the skill and dedication trad hunting took but wasn't ready to commit to it the time it requires until now.

I too choose to hunt with a long bow or recurve. But I also hunt with a rifle, shotgun and muzzle loader. Not all of us look down on others who choose not to hunt with traditional equipment. I have many friends that hunt with compounds and some that even use cross bows now. We all need to stick together no matter what type of hunting we do. As long as someone is hunting ethically, I am fine with it. I do find that there seems to be a tighter bond with traditional shooters, a trust that you just don't seem to find with other groups. I can't say that I have found many traditional shooters that would not help out a total stranger be it questions or even equipment that they may need. I am proud to be a part of this group.

I have always shot a recurve just never took to compounds

I  hunt with rifle ,shotgun and even the dreaded recurve crossbow  :)  

I don't care what anyone uses as long as they can use it adequately

I don't think most of us here are hostile to any other weapons, whether they have wheels or chambers. Most are like Barry Rowland and me. The wheels are just not for us. What anyone else shoots is their business. I have shot a few arrows through compound bows, but just didn't care for the experience.

If I had to shoot one to eat, I'd probably do it, but I shoot for the joy of watching the graceful arc of a wooden arrow, released by my fingers from a whisper quiet bow. My motion is fluid and surprisingly fast. Getting a compound into action takes too long for my taste.

Both my sons have traditional bows, but have switched over to compounds because their jobs and families have limited their practice time. That is their choice. When they get a bit older, they may also discover the joy of shooting a traditional bow. If not I am just glad I at least passed on my love of hunting and being in the outdoors to both of them.

Again, I have no hostility toward compounds, nor those who choose to use them. They are just not for me.

Other equipment is not easier, its difficult in different ways, whether a spear or crossbow.  Nothing in and of itself is easier, it just happens to be more effecient at certain times.
If we include all the other weapons on this website it would get aweful busy.  
All weapons have their limits, and all weapons sometimes wound instead of kill.  So any hate just comes from ignorance and insecurity.

i think you guys need to just go hunting. Lol!   :rolleyes:  
You can always tell when hunting season starts winding down in different areas by the different threads that start popping up.  i don't care what weapon of choice someone else uses. i don't think crossbows should be allowed during bow season, but i have no problem with it as a weapon.
My opinion (and everybody has one) and experience is that most of the older guys/gals that have been trad since before that was a word, don't show an elitism toward other weapons.

First off, it it were me making this post I would have worded the title "Why are SOME Trad Guys so hostile to other bows?"

Because not all of us are.

To answer your question, I believe that some people are hardwired to make themselves feel superior compared to other people....and to cut others down.

Just the same as some people are bullies and some are not.

I compare some of the lower class trad community to some of lower class Harley people...(I say people since some of these nincompoops aren't owners or riders anyway) they just have a uneducated elitist attitude.

In all honesty, when ALL else is equal I have a little more respect for those using trad equipment than those using a compound.

For instance I KNOW I'd be happier to have taken a doe with my longbow than taking a buck with my compound.

BUT!, there are a lot of great people ( and great hunters ) using either set of equipment.

I know of quite a few better hunters/woodsmen than me that are using compounds or even crossbows for that matter.

my 2¢

This thread got me to thinking even more.(talk about dangerous!)...lol

Here is my analogy to what might be at the heart of my problem, if I have one.

I once was an avid black powder long rifle hunter. I started as a percussion shooter but over time I made the switch to flintlocks. Flintlocks held more romance for me and I loved the fact that the great state of Missouri seemed to understand the need for having a separate season for those of us shooting black powder.

My problem arose with the advent of the new "modern" muzzleloaders that totally lacked the romance of the old guns and shot more like a modern rifle. Scopes were allowed then powder pellets replaced powder horns.

The "spirit" of why blackpowder hunting was so romantic for me lost so much when I was no longer wandering the woods with just those folks that with the same kindred spirit. It was no longer anything special, it was just another hunting season.

The change in my environment with the new additions changed the feeling for me.
It is that loss of romantic spirit/feeling that I grieve.

On the plus side it did draw more folks into hunting and I see that as a good thing.

I hope my analogy is acceptable.

God bless,Mudd

I'm not an elitist. I started with a recurve, went to a compound because I listened to all the hype and marketing. Still use firearms and have fallen back in love with traditional archery. As long as the hunter has the right mindset and ethics I don't care what he or she uses. I just prefer the the traditional bow. I do think that something is lost with the more modern equipment, maybe woodsman ship skills or the hunting skills that's needed to get close......not sure what it is! Like Rastaman said I was traditional when it was just archery/bowhunting.....lol!

QuoteOriginally posted by Buxndiverdux:

How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?
Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

How did you come to the jealously conclusion?

Why would anyone that shoots a longbow or recurve be jealous of someone that shoots a compound bow? Like you (I think), we all have chosen the way we desire to hunt and shoot. We have chosen to do things the old school way. For myself, at age 68, this was the way I learned to hunt and shoot. I see no reason at this point in my life to put down a wood bow and pick up a compound. To me, a longbow was once a living breathing creature. One of my bows is made from a 300 year old English yew tree felled during a storm in Staffordshire, England. I know where it lived. I know the history of the world that it saw while living and growing breathing. Now, I have the privilege of holding it in my hands and feeling the personality that bow has.

I was told by a compound shooter, "The archery skill with a compound is when you can shoot an arrow through a deer at 65+ yards and it never knows you were there." I disagreed and told him the skill is when you can stalk close enough to a deer that you can reach out and touch him with your bow, before he knows you are there. I have done just that. I harbor no jealously for a compound shooter. Why would I?

I don't fingerpoint or bash. I don't consider myself an elitist, only a woodsman with traditional skills.

Danny

QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
First off, it it were me making this post I would have worded the title "Why are SOME Trad Guys so hostile to other bows?"

Because not all of us are.

To answer your question, I believe that some people are hardwired to make themselves feel superior compared to other people....and to cut others down.

Just the same as some people are bullies and some are not.

I compare some of the lower class trad community to some of lower class Harley people...(I say people since some of these nincompoops aren't owners or riders anyway) they just have a uneducated elitist attitude.

In all honesty, when ALL else is equal I have a little more respect for those using trad equipment than those using a compound.

For instance I KNOW I'd be happier to have taken a doe with my longbow than taking a buck with my compound.

BUT!, there are a lot of great people ( and great hunters ) using either set of equipment.

I know of quite a few better hunters/woodsmen than me that are using compounds or even crossbows for that matter.

my 2¢

In hindsight... I probably should have posted "some". I'm glad that the responses have been civil. It makes me feel more comfortable here. Maybe it's the "attitudes" I've seen on other forums that gave me that impression. Thanks for all the replies.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ric O'Shay:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Buxndiverdux:

How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?
Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

How did you come to the jealously conclusion?

Why would anyone that shoots a longbow or recurve be jealous of someone that shoots a compound bow? Like you (I think), we all have chosen the way we desire to hunt and shoot. We have chosen to do things the old school way. For myself, at age 68, this was the way I learned to hunt and shoot. I see no reason at this point in my life to put down a wood bow and pick up a compound. To me, a longbow was once a living breathing creature. One of my bows is made from a 300 year old English yew tree felled during a storm in Staffordshire, England. I know where it lived. I know the history of the world that it saw while living and growing breathing. Now, I have the privilege of holding it in my hands and feeling the personality that bow has.

I was told by a compound shooter, "The archery skill with a compound is when you can shoot an arrow through a deer at 65+ yards and it never knows you were there." I disagreed and told him the skill is when you can stalk close enough to a deer that you can reach out and touch him with your bow, before he knows you are there. I have done just that. I harbor no jealously for a compound shooter. Why would I?

I don't fingerpoint or bash. I don't consider myself an elitist, only a woodsman with traditional skills.

Danny [/b]

My jealousy comment was directed at people that look down at other hunters because they use a compound or gun. Your post doesn't display jealousy to me. It simply explains what I was trying to explain about my experience, but with far greater detail and thought.

Depends on what you mean by  "easier equipment".  I've never chewed on someone else over their choice of equipment, but there is a lot of equipment I won't support the use of!  The draw-loc, pod and crossbow come to mind.

Modern equipment versus traditional equipment is a choice and that's all it is.  That doesn't mean that anything goes, or that  the killing of an animal means you are hunting.

I hunt with a recurve, a compound, a crossbow, a shotgun, a muzzleloader, a rifle. and a handgun. Hell I'd use a flamethower if it were legal. We have common enemies out there - the anti-hunter! Why spend our energies bickering with each other about crossbows! My crossbow gets me 15 more yards than my compound - big deal. I use it in urban deer management settings where its use is preferred.
I have a much higher sense of accomlishment when I take a deer with my recurve than I do when I take a deer with my rifle. But I never look down on those that use any LEGAL means of harvesting game.
The only "looking down" I have experinced on hunting websites (not just this one) are aimed at crossbow hunters, and I seriously do not understand the animosity.

I'm not hostile toward any other bow/muzzle/modern arms hunters as long as they pursue their sport with integrity....I hunt with longbow - mainly stillhunting because of the challenge/excitement (my kills have gone way down) but I'm enjoying bow season more than I ever have....


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Glenn

Well done Bux. If others have as much fun as I do with my LB, they can hunt with a hatchet for all I care.

What every type of weapon is legal in which ever State Your hunting. If crossbows are legal for anyone to use, That's kool with Me. I joke about wheelie bows, but have nothing bad to say about the archer.

I used to hunt with all legal means.. Handguns, muzzleloaders, rifles, compound bows, shotguns and even crossbows. They are all Great weapons and No one should down a hunter for hunting with a legal weapon of their choice.

I have and I will still hunt with others no matter what They use. I went from centerfire rifle hunting to smokepole, for the challange. After My Heart surgery I started bow hunting with a Wheelie bow, Then went to Trad bows for the thrill of the hunt.

Remember easier isn't always better. Wheelie bows if bumped, dropped can and will come out of tune, They can brake a pin or lose a peep and the hunt is over. Yes You can shoot farther with a wheelie bow. But that doesn't mean it better.

The other reason I switched to smokepoles and tradbows, was to made Myself get closer. It stopped being fun to Me when I was shooting deer at 300 yards with My 30-06... I got more enjoyment with a Bow I knew I had to wait for the deer to get closer then 30 yards so I could take a shot. (Only did one shot over 30 yards at a deer and gut shot it... Sick feeling) Now I'm not saying You can't take long shots.. Mr Hill and Mr. Bear proved that..

Mudd............

My state allows centerfire (4570, 35 wheelan and others) single shot rifles with scopes during (primative weapon season) so I know what you are feeling.  On bowhunting, my thinking has always been: if the projectile has feathers/vanes it is archery.

I'm sure not jealous. I do my thing, and others do theirs. If others want to hunt with a howitzer, that is their choice. I'll just continue to enjoy the romance of traditional equipment, and let those that don't understand why we limit ourselves just keep on not understanding.

I don't care what weapon a guy chooses to hunt with. To each their own. I just don't think some of it belongs in archery season. I think Gene Wensel wrote in his first book that he chose a recurve because it was the "best" tool for the job, and no other reason. With a stickbow in my hand I don't feel handicapped at all. As for the "feeling" I get when carrying it...... Well some people just don't get it, and probably never will.

I like the comment about some people just being bullies no matter what it pertains to.  That makes complete sense.  Some just think they're better.
Personally, I have no problems with compounds.  The only thing I would change about crossbows is to make it legal during gun season and not archery.  Ohio allows them during archery season.  I like how Idaho did it when I used to live there.  You could use crossbows during archery season only if you had a disability or handicap that didn't allow you to draw back a bow.  Otherwise it had to be a trad bow or compound.

As long as the hunter respects the animal they are hunting (and does it with good ethics) I don't care what they use. I have some opinions on different weapons and what season they should be used in.  

I personally disagree more with "canned" hunting than I do what weapon your using. But I won't go into that.

I think it is the make a kill no matter what versus the enjoy the hunt and use your skills mentality that can bring the attitudes you are pointing out.  

I often shake my head when shooting at the local shop.  Guys brag about 80 yard shots and just missing the animal by that much, when the same guy can't shoot a target with precision at 30 yards.  This behavior boils down to immaturity on the hunters part.  These folks let their ego and lack of skill supplant the experience.

I use a variety of weapons to harvest a variety of animals.  I don't look down on any of them or people who use them.  I hunt out of the same camps as compound and muzzleloader hunters while trad hunting.    

I agree with some earlier posts about traditional seasons needing to stay that way.  A modern inline muzzleloader is a high powered rifle now adays.  A crossbow does not belong in archery seasons.  If it has a stock, an integral  trigger and can mount a scope it is not a primitive or restricted weapon.

Yeah your bows NOT BETTER than an indian bow.You gotta be kidding me.Todays bows are crude compared to thousands of years of bow making by less superior indian bows.Now thats jealousy.

Because the other bows are not real bows.

:deadhorse:     :deadhorse:    :deadhorse:

I for one am sorry that you feel the way you do but I do believe you might have some reason to believe the way you do.  I have seen some "elitism" displayed at times on this board but I think overall you have a absolutely outstanding bunch of guys who are ethical, honest and passionate about their sport.  Because of that passion we all may get a little overboard at times.  I think in all activities whether hunting or sports or whatever there are always going to be the elitists, the purists who wish to foist their ideals on you.   The key is to listen to all, then make your own decisions as to how you will walk your trad walk.  Good luck to all this next year, in hunting and in life.  And I for one am proud to be a part of this "trad gang"

This just me but...

There are a number of guys across various forums who express a lot of hatred, intolerance and bad attitude online. To a man, they all become pussycats when you are face-to-face with them. The most hostile guys are typically the ones who can't put two logical sentences together while having a discussion in person. I tend to react to them like I would a road-killed skunk: avoid contact and keep on rolling!

QuoteOriginally posted by Buxndiverdux:
I was drawn to the longbow by a thirst for more of a challenge, only to find that I have felt like more of a true hunter than ever while carrying it. There is so much more of a spiritual side of things while hunting with Trad Gear. I feel more connected with God and nature in general. I completely realize that I'm still hunting with "technology" far superioir to what the Inidians carried, but it's still a stick and a string.
I took the challenge head on knowingly giving up at least 50% of my effective range to hunt with the long bow. It was my personal choice to do so. Noone forced me to choose the longbow.
So what I have a hard time understanding is all the hate for the other hunting tools? We have chosen a higher level of challenge but berate others for their accomplishments with "easier" equipment. How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?
Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

Okay..lemme try an stay "spiritual" here..as to your first question?..i don't "hate" other hunting tools..i just dont have quite as much "respect" for such and how could i possibly be jealouse when i have a decked out 2010 PSE Omen hanging on my bedroom wall?..collecting dust..LOL!...i dunno..but i might suppose that many others share the same feelings on the subject that i do since the recent rekindling of my love affair for tradbows..and for me?..it goes something like this..

The level of vigilence, dedication and skill required to master a tradbow far outweighs what is required of trigger released wheelbow..and it's not the good folks who select such that i despise it's the marketing ploys and almost bi-annual antiquation of wheelbows that turns me off to them..that coupled with the fact that if a person has enough dedication and vigilence?..i.e. :with a lot of practice?..one discovers that..anything that can be done in the woods with a wheelbow (at any sane and sportsmen like hunting distances) can be done with a tradbow and for bonus points?..

1. i dont need a new one every year to keep up with the jonses and...

2. Tradbows weigh about 1/3rd-1/4th of an average wheelbow..

3. There's still plenty of light at dusk & dawn to get a clear sight picture for a clean shot.

4. Where wheelbows and their associated gizmos are ready for the dumpster in 5 years?..i love my 20 year old tradbows as much (if not moreso) than the day i got them.

A final closing analogy?..to me?..tradbows are like a great wife who stuck with ya for the long haul where wheelbows are like ladies of the evening..expensive and short lived...and to be honest?..the only time i do catch myself hating on the techies?..is when they look down on me feeling all snobby like with their shiney new wheelbows..as i've known for years that while tradbows are like 90% Archer/10% Bow?..wheelbows are like 90% Bow/10% Archer.

and that's coming from a guy that was once a state ranked archer with the NFAA/FAA and club champion for more than several years running.. fingershooting compounds in BHFSL.

L8R, Bill.  :cool:

Keep it legal and I, pretty much, don't care what another man does. Within the law, we all get to define our own sport. Because I was an archer before the compound was in popular use, it just never quite met my "personal definition" of archery.

As a shepherd and farmer, when I absolutely, positively had to kill an animal in defense of property, I never hesitated to grab my .270 and have at it. That, however, did not meet my "personal definition" of hunting. The older I get, the more carefully I examine the "why's" and "how's" of what I do.

A couple of years ago, I decided to take game with a longbow--or not at all. More often than not, I eat tag soup--but MY personal values are not subject to anyone else's judgement, nor are their personal values subject to mine. That kind of personal freedom is one of the things I most appreciate about being an American, as well as, a "traditional" bowhunter.

More important than the equipment is the mentality. If you're taking ethical shots I have no problem with you.

Some equipment shouldn't be shot during bow or primitive seasons because it detracts from the management aspect of the season - the season is supposed to allow the same number of hunters for a lower success rate, which is a win from the management side of things: more people in the woods with a stable deer population. It's not a 'better than you' issue.

here's a quote from another post that sums it up I think.

Gene Wenzel older quote "I'm not saying that everyone who shoots a compound is a jackwaggon, just saying that every jackwaggon i met in the woods was shooting a compound."

Now that's funny right there.

I give my wheelie buddies a hard time but all in good fun. I have been trying to get my dad to bowhunt for years and last season he bought a compound. I'm just glad he finally showed some interest in bow hunting. Now if I can just get him the woods with it I'm sure we'll have a great time.

I'll share camp with anyone that respects the woods and the critters in it no matter the choice of tool used to make the harvest.

I'll still the give the wheelie guys a hard time out of good clean fun    :D

I don't look down on anyone for the methods they choose to use as long as it is legal and they use them with respect toward the animals they hunt. My grandfather is one of the biggest gun nuts I have ever met but he is probably the best woodsman in our area as well.

I'm rejecting the premise, too. I don't think trad hunters hate other bows or other hunters at all.

We do and should look out for our interests and oppose equipment or regulations that will cut down our opportunities, but that's just common sense. I think xbows in archery-only seasons and off trail ATVs on public land do exactly that and I will oppose them, politely and respectfully.

As for elitism... so what? I shoot my bow every day. When I shot a compound I shot it every day ... in August. I am working WAY harder than I ever did with a compound. I am making my own rests and strike plates and arrows and just plain putting more into it than most other hunters. So what? I am reading about history and tradition and people and participating in forums like this as best I'm able and joining bowhunting organizations and I hope to spend time volunteering this spring and summer and become a better member of this community and do what I can to make our community stronger. That doesn't mean I hate anybody or feel that I'm entitled to anything more than anybody else. But it makes me feel good about what I'm doing.

To tell you the truth, I don't think about other hunters or bowhunters very much unless they're about to run me over on a Kawasaki.

I take great pleasure from shooting and hunting with a recurve or longbow and that is my personal choice. I don't care what the next guy chooses to use. I have a few rifles as well myself. My dad who is 75 is a rifle hunter and when I get the chance to hunt with my pops I carry a rifle and it transports me back 35 years to when I was following him around and learning to hunt. I don't feel like I've been made unclean by a few days toting a rifle.

Jealousy? Hardly! I actually feel sorry for compounders, they have not yet moved up to traditional equipment. The best thing I ever did was leave my compound behind and start shooting stickbows. That's when the fun started!

Although I am a "Trad guy" I do wonder why some feel crossbows should be part of a gun season and not part of an archery season. My rifle has a maximum effective range of about 300 yards. A crossbow has a maximum effective range of about 45 yards. Thats a whole lot closer to a bow than a gun!
I have a friend who lost his arm in Combat for this country. If it were not for crossbows being in archery season, his hunting would be limited to 3 weeks a year.

If it's a bow I'll shoot it.

I have a compound and for the most part it sits in the garage waiting to be shot. I love my longbows and recurves, each one brings a smile to my face as I pull them out of a bow sock or case, brace them up and just admire the handiwork of the craftsmen that made them.

I don't have a single problem with whatever someone chooses to use in the woods as long as they can execute a lethal shot, and use what they kill. I don't think it's fair to judge someone by my choices, I can only judge their respectfullness.

I think what disturbs most trad shooters is the complete ignorance by archers that have never shot a trad bow and the judgements they make. I was in the range once and I was shooting my bow and after a round, a gentleman proceeded to tell me that I shot a pretty good group for a traditional shooter. I held my tongue a politly agreed. In my opinion it was a damn good group no matter what bow I was shooting.

Migra Bill.   Crossbows are allowed for diasabled hunters in Washington State.  I have buddy guided friends who use them to kills on elk and deer.  I have disabled buddies who legally shoot deer out of the back of a truck, while I drive them around the back roads.  Both of these things are legal for people with a disabled tag in Washington.

Crossbows are not bows, never have been and never will be.  In the middle ages an archer took a decades to become a bowman.  You could take any serf and make him a crossbowman in a week.  In war crossbowmen and archers were never mixed.  They were used differently then and it is no different now.  If you want to hunt in a limited weapon season you should have to make the effort to obtain the skills it takes to be proficient.

I was asked last year to help a friend sight in his crossbow.  He was struggling and could not get it to group.  I fired it three times at 20 yards from the standing position.  I put the first two bolts next to each other and split the first bolt with the third. With a bit of work on his riflemans skills and firing sequence training I had him shooting 50 cent groups at 40 yards off a rest and 4 inch groups free standing that day.

I challenge any person born in the history of the world to do that with a bow in a period of weeks much less in one day.  If it has a stock, an integral trigger, and can mount a scope it is not a bow.  If it takes a riflemans skills to shoot it, then it is not a bow.  If it is not a bow, it does not belong in the archery season.

I have seen my share of elitism but not on this site. Now let me make clear that I am not speaking of distinctions between what weapon belongs in what season (i.e. crossbows) I am talking about the guys that sneer because someone else is shooting a different type of bow. I think those that behave that way suffer from a lack of confidence in their weapon of choice. I myself was a "elitist" when I first started bowhunting but I outgrew that. Like others have said it isn't confined to traditional archery. Harley guys, car enthusiasts etc. all have that small faction where nothing is as good as what they have. Just ignore em and enjoy your life imo.

Were are not hostile, at least I'm not, just don't care for them. Too much stuff hanging off the bow, and more stuff to keep up with.

That being said, I am for most anything that helps keep bow hunting alive and well...even if I have to hold my nose.

QuoteOriginally posted by Migra Bill:
Although I am a "Trad guy" I do wonder why some feel crossbows should be part of a gun season and not part of an archery season. My rifle has a maximum effective range of about 300 yards. A crossbow has a maximum effective range of about 45 yards. Thats a whole lot closer to a bow than a gun!
I have a friend who lost his arm in Combat for this country. If it were not for crossbows being in archery season, his hunting would be limited to 3 weeks a year.

Because you can pick one up and be hunt-ready in less than half an hour.  You don't have the movement requirements of a hand-held bow.  Archery seasons are liberal because a lower take rate is expected.  If you aren't willing to abide by the limitations, there's no reason you should enjoy a more liberal season.  I don't have a problem givign your buddy a bye to hunt in bow season, but a crossbow is not his  only option.  I've seen some darn fine bow shooting by a one-armed gentleman using a mouth tab.

I only shoot a trad bow but I am grateful to the compounders. It may be thanks to them that we even have a bow season today. Think about it-how much tax revenue do we generate; without compound shooters the rifle hunters would have thrown us under the bus long ago.

I wish for every hunt to use the weapon that suits them best.  If that's a compound, so be it.  You still need to be a good hunter to get within compound range.

This forum is specifically for trad bows, so that's why we limit the pictures posted and some types of threads.  There are plenty of websites out there dedicated to other types of hunting where those can be shared and/or questions asked.

I like the forum the way it is b/c I can get info specific to trad hunting and there's lots of 'experts' here who have tons of experience to guide me in the right direction.

I myself wish to go 100% trad in 2012.  I've got permission for a new farm that hopefully has better deer #'s on it.  Previusly I was hunting public land where my opportunities were very limited and I need to take advantage of each one.

Altiman - I totally agree. I LOVE this site because it is trad only and I wouldnt want to see pics of non-trad related harvests. Leave that for the other sites, there are plenty of them.
I just know that others, like me, use other weapons as well and I dont want to make them feel bad by our words. There was a recent discussion on another site how "we here" are bows snobs and look down on gun hunters. I thought about it, did some research and determined that they did have some validity in what they were saying.
Like I said before, I hate the energy spent on what I call "Interbickering" between hunters. Lets spend those energies on dealing with the PETA's of the world.

Right on, Clay and Jeff.

About six or seven years ago I was having a lot of difficulties with my trad gear and decided to take a break and bought another compound hoping it would break me out of the habit of snap shooting, no anchor, etc.. I ended up taking a nice antelope buck with that bow that I had stalked up on and was very proud of outsmarting his eyesight. A few of the other tradgear guys I shot with told me I was cheating and dismissed my buck. We argued quite a bit about it. But these guys were definitely in the minority though as many others came forward and stated that the hunt with other weapons. I still hunt with rifles as well, but if I hunt with a bow now it is tradgear only for ME, my choice not to be forced on others. Heck, I bought my wife a compound last year because she wanted to give one a try. To each their own. I don't think a crossbow should be used during archery season but I don't care if someone shoots one. Just my two cents. Elitist and bad mouthers seem to be the minority but they are out there. Sorry about the long post.

To each his own,personally I like things simple,YMMV.  :knothead:    :archer:

Ever go to an all trad 3D shoot and listen. You hear it all the time. Went to a trad 3D and they had a compound bow at the last target for you to shoot at.

I go to an all bow shoot and you have compound guys asking about my bow Not once do you hear them saying anything bad.

Glad that's been your experience, Craig.  I've been ambushed at open shoots and accused of wounding deer because everyone knows that a longbow isn't capable of killing game cleanly.

There are idiots and those who need to justify their personal choices in both camps.

If its legal go for it  . But I will say a cross bow is not a bow .But cross bows are way cool. all weapons are cool. Not every one just hunts white tails sitting in a tree stand.

I grew up on sticks and have always loved the simplicity and sheer fun. I think most of the resentment (in my opinion anyway) has to do with all of those mechanical contraptions being referred to as bows and advertisements telling us it will make us "better hunters". It's kinda like kissing a cold metal robot that everyone is trying to pass off as a pretty girl. That's my .02

I don't care what anyone else uses. I usually don't care if people judge me for what I use(to an extent.)

I didn't want to imply that this "forum" was hostile to other bows. I understand that it is a Trad specific site and I like that about it. So sorry if it came across that way. I'm glad to see all the positive and reasonable responses.

I got no beef. to each his own. but a crossbow aint no bow.

i have no animosity towards compounds or rifles for that matter (i still rifle hunt). As long as its ethical and legal hunting (no they are not one in the same). That said i do not hunt with or own a compound anymore because it is always about the gadgets and the speed and making it easier to kill animals with less effort, and to me that is not what bowhunting is about. I know several guys who routinely shoot at 100 yards with their compounds, even at animals, and that is basically like shooting a 30-30. To me that is not bowhunting.

as far as crossbows, i do not think they should be allowed in a bow season by anyone that is not disabled. they are essentially a rifle that shoots a bolt.....just aim and pull the trigger (if you dont believe this, watch the many shows on TV where a new kid is handed a crossbow they have never shot before and they shoot a deer with no issues, could they do that with a recurve?)

That said, they are not for me, but if used ethically and legally then i dont care if others use them.

I don't shoot longbows because of any other reason than I am better with them.  I do have a problem with some of the attitudes from modern hunters.  I think the set-up style hunts that they see on TV has something to do with it. I see land hoarding by the use of multiple tree stands, six or more tree stands, as an attempt to tie up the available hunting land around here is very common.  Guys leave tree stands out year round to keep "their places" to themselves. It just seems like the compound  and the growing number of "my shoulder hurts I need a cross bow" crowd are the main instigators of land hogging.

Bowhunting has a certain almost mystical attraction to me. It feels good to walk in the woods with a stick bow in my hand. I've shot compounds and to me it's just not the same thing. Not inferior or better, just different. For me, hunting with a crossbow has no attraction. If others like it, for whatever reason, and it's legal, have at it.

Is a crossbow with recurve shaped limbs more traditional than a reverse draw compound crossbow? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Bowhunting is just like fishing.

Fishermen can use a cane pole, string, hook, and a worm. Fishermen can also use the latest synthetic poles, fancy reels, artificial bait, bass boats w/fish finders. Both methods catch fish and each participant is happy while not quite understanding the other.

I use trad equipment, I hunt with fellow trad archers, I go to shoots with fellow trad archers. I shake my head and don't quite understand compounders. I guess we are both bowhunters.

Very well done Tradgangers   :clapper:  

Great dialogue without the witch hunt.  

I was recently introduced to what was termed the "fathead club".  What might that be?  It is the primitve sector of traditional hunting.  All wood no glass, no phenalics, no epoxys, just hide glue and sinew.  Knapped heads and arrows with cut in knocks and sinew.  I think the idea is that if you harvest an animal with that kind of setup you end up with a fathead!

I'm on year two of committing to trad bows and I've just recently discovered that within our own sport there are some levels of disdain.

Great thread...

~CB

My Mom always told me I could "get more with sugar than I could with vinegar". I think the best way to change someone's mind would be to let them see how much fun you're having.

Trying to make someone feel inferior or less doesn't build us up- it brings us down.  I'm not a big tent guy, but I have made a lot of converts this way.

I shot a compound for quite a few years before I switched traditional 100%, I have always had the attitude,"WE ARE ALL SPORTSMAN, AND HAVE TO STICK TOGHTER"! There are anti hunting groups that thrieve on the bickering amoungst ourselves, why let them win?

"If you want to hunt in a limited weapon season you should have to make the effort to obtain the skills it takes to be proficient."

Well, no elitism here.

My hats off to Mudd! You put into words what I have been feeling for a very long time. I grieve the loss of romance and adventure that our primitive weapon season once had.

I don't hate any of the equipment I've used or use. That would cover about everything at one time or another.

Its a bad road to go down; hating or berating another person's equipment or hunting style (as long as its legal). Such distaste can easisly be misinterpreted to extend to the man behind the equipment which would be even worse.

I have no interest in many forms of hunting equipment these days but, that is a personal decision that reflects only on me.

Shoot, the only people I have a sore spot for are those who still have use for a comb....where' I'd lay that hat?

"Cant we all just get along" Rodney King

To each there own we dont bash we just dont shoot the same things,welike to think were special .And we are   :campfire:

To each his own.Im know better or know worse

I hunt with what I do for me and respect others for what they choose. Some like vanilla some chocolate, its all ice cream.

Chromebuck dang did not know I was a fathead

I really don't care what others shoot. My son shoots both a compound and a recurve and we have our little discussions about the two but more in fun than anything.

I will say this though, my main concern is that whatever someone uses, they take the time to become proficient with that weapon and that they are ethical in the shots they take.

If you cannot stay on topic DO NOT POST.  Arguing about crossbows is irrelevant to this thread so don't please

Buxndiverdux,

"So what I have a hard time understanding is all the hate for the other hunting tools? We have chosen a higher level of challenge but berate others for their accomplishments with "easier" equipment. How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?"

A name is not necessary, but where did you get this information ?

Everything I have seen from Trad shooters for the last few years has been just the opposite of what you have found.

I apologize if I started that.

But compounds are indeed bows. The metal parts and assemblies are held in one hand and the string is held in the other, er, the contraption that holds onto the string is held in the other and muscles hold them apart. So they are my brothers or perhaps cousins, at the very least neighbors. I'm kidding. They're fine.

I don't care what someone thinks about my tackle.
I don't care what someone thinks about their tackle.
I don't spend time thinking about others' tackle.
I do spend my time being concerned with my own tackle.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:

There are idiots and those who need to justify their personal choices in both camps.

I think that hits the nail right on the head.  Unfortunately, the idiots are the loudest and sometimes some people are quick to judge a whole group based on one comment.

This thread saddens me as some of the posts made lend to the thread starters claim that some traditional bowhunters follow an elitist kind of mindset. Nothing positive can come of threads like these as it is a sort of "poke in the chest" topic.

There is no need to feel sorry for the Natives that hunted with inferior equipment, because it wasn't inferior, just different, and their skills were much better than ours.

I am not quite sure where all the elitist hang out, or who is being hateful toward others, and their choice of tools, since this is a traditional bowhunting forum. I would suggest try tuning it out, switch to another topic, or click the Report Post icon.   :dunno:

I am just very sad that they are allowed in the archery season.

The reason is that an enormous amount of work went into securing first laws allowing us to hunt with bows and second carving out a separate season for them. Modern arrow propelling devices are not "primitive" any more than in line muzzle loaders are. Lump all that modern stuff into a gun season and fire away.

From another thread:
Modern compounds are not considered bows in my opinion. They're a mechanical shooting device. Nothing "bends" anymore.The idea to invent the compound was the ability to make it easier for hunters to hold a bow at full draw.
The decline to the shooting device started with ridicilous high let-off percentages, mechanical releases, scoped sights and olympic style stabilizers. Archers don't need training wheels. I don't like compound shooters and I don't like to hunt together with them. I am not a fan of modern guns as well, I stay with my flintlock.
I try to sourround myself as much as possible with traditional archers/ traditional black powder shooters. At the local "wheeli bow club" 3D-shoots,I leave the compounders alone and I rather shoot alone. I have no desire to snail shoot with them.I tolerate them, but I don't have to like them or accept them as archers. There are more and more trad only shoots around, so I will frequent the local club a lot less in the future...

"I don't like compound shooters....." (Author unknown)


I understand someone not liking a certain piece of equipment. I don't understand someone not liking the person who uses it...assuming the equipment produces the judgement.

tecum-tha, that is exactly the kind of attitude the author of the thread was talking about.  Not sure where you obtained that  but all I can say is wow! That smacks of elitism and a high degree of prejeduice, something I believe there is no place for here and am saddened to see.  But as I have said before there are always a few to spoil the fun. Shame on him.  I for one will not let one bad comment like that keep me from enjoying the thousands of other entertaining, positive, enjoyable posts that are made every week by an outstanding bunch of people. Sometimes you just gotta take the bad with the good.

Interesting how contraversial threads seem to be popular! Cant really answer this question as I dont rank among "them". Wouldn't think it would be jealousy though because most that can afford trad gear could go to a wheely! Who knows, I just grab my curve and jump in the truck with all my gun huntin pals and it's off we go!!

I have been shooting trad since 86, added primitive archery to my bag of tricks around 1990 (thanks to the late Joe Mattingly making me bows to trade for) then in 2001 I added my first compound to my bag of tricks mainly has a meat winner/no holes barred Meat shopping tool. I shoot all 3 types very very well in their own respected yardages..

okay, I lived it and experienced all types of archers and I have the personal experience on what I experienced and what I witnessed said by folks who didn't know I shot all equipment.

compounders,, I've shot many 3D's in everything from archery hunter groups to Top gun groups and from my experience the top gun shooters had their opinions but most where based on what they witnessed on the course,, its a bad rap towards the sticks because some folks do not hunt and we also play around on the course, so to the target shooters 6 traditional shooters all doing the chicken scratch trying to find arrows behind every other target creates these opinions if its fair towards us or not.

most of the wheelie bowhunters green stake shooters  in my experience usually do not care who is shooting what,, you will get snickered at if you make a bad shot with a stick but anyone with another wheelie bow gets almost the same treatment.  these guys ain't as hardcore as the Topgun tourny shooters and I found many do envy us in a small way,, alot of these guys have a longbow or recurve or had one tucked away and usually because they do not personally know anyone who shoots a stick theyu don't bother even spending time with it,  all their buddys shoot wheels so they don't even mention the stick and jsut shoot wheels..  
within this group I've heard more slack from stickshooters within hearing distance where alot of the time I feel they wanted the wheelies to hear them heckling and I'm a stick shooter myself so I know what certain words mean,,  some wheelie shooters I know here locally got in verbal arguments with stick shooters after hearing smart comments and because of  this theres an animosity from a few that will be there till death I think.

stick shooters,, my fellow stickbow brothers that I've personally shot with all over the country,, I think most forgot where they started and seem to not like the wheelie shooters at all with really no real reason . I've been in these groups a thousand times since I was 16 and its usually cool and nothing is said until the stick shooters catch up to the wheel shooters and are stuck behind them,, here on our 3D's you have a minute to take the shot and alot of my trad buddys forgot that part in the rule book and seem to take it personal and hate certain local wheelie shooters that don't rush who I find are very friendly people and have no beef against us.. one guy known for having all the gagets even offered me his spare key to his truck to use his deer cart if needed after bumping into each other at a management area we both hunted..    face to face theres no problem but behind the backs stuff is usually said and I feel bad.

Primitive shooters,,, I love this part of archery but these guys are hard on everyone.. I've been in Primitive only groups that don't care what you shoot as long as its made from one piece of wood or you surely are not on the best of friends 1st to get the phone call list,, ha ha..                 I say that being funny but the primitive guys that I respect alot get messed with by everyone rather it for fun or stupidity but becauseof our slow dog leg bows that break alot, funny quivers, uglie looking fletch jobs.. there is nothing more awesome than the looks you get when a hardcore primitive group shoots thru on a top gun group at some 3D course and the primitives  all decide to shoot from the top gun stake because they are never shooting for score and they all miss,,,,,, I was there and it made my life complete!!

anyway I have no beef with anyone but when I was younger I would not get caught dead shooting next to a compound, I've had words with them because I refused to shoot inside a dart system with wheelies I didn't even know. I hated them because I really thought they talked crap about me behind my back but after being on all sides of the fences and getting to know alot of different people I now know our only enemy is the Atlatyl throwers,,, yeah watch out for those guys!! they throw everybody under the steam roller its like a secret Mason organization where nobody knows exactly what their plans or beliefs are and whenever you pass one your ears soon start ringing.....

QuoteOriginally posted by njloco:
Buxndiverdux,

"So what I have a hard time understanding is all the hate for the other hunting tools? We have chosen a higher level of challenge but berate others for their accomplishments with "easier" equipment. How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?"

A name is not necessary, but where did you get this information ?

Everything I have seen from Trad shooters for the last few years has been just the opposite of what you have found.

I've seen the elitist attitudes on many other forums and I obviously let those attitudes form my own perception of Trad Guys. But thanks to this site and it's members, I know that there are plenty of guys on here like me. I really figured this thread was gonna get yanked or that I would be kicked off the forum for starting it, but it didn't happen. There are good guys here. I'm glad I'm a part of it.

Welcome to the family.  There are lots of varied opinions and a few disagreements here or there but they stay polite. They only get yanked when they are not polite.  I don't even bother surfing other trad sites.  To much flaming going on.   Trad Gang is bar none the best trad site on the web.

I try to subscribe to a personal philosophy of 'live, and let live'...meaning that I may have an opinion on the way other people chose to live, but as long as what they do is legal, and approved by the greater public...let them do as they please.  But here it is:  I have a personal disdain for anyone who uses technology to overcome skill and common sense.  That internalizing isn't just about wheels, bullets, etc., but it extends to all aspects of my life, including texting while driving.

There, I said it...I usually keep my opinions on this matter to myself.  This is probably the first time I've opened up about this in a public forum. I have enjoyed many of the posts under this subject.

Well I'll go out on a limb and say I have problems with compound bows....

Modern compounds (in my opinion) are thinly veiled arrow guns.  

1)  The limbs barely move (if at all)
2)  Two mechanical sights
3)  Trigger release
4)  Laser range finder
5)  Cams and cables providing mechanical energy

It seems to me the same thing is happening in compound bows that happened with muzzle loaders...  People can't help "reinventing" elements of the rifle.  

However, at some point it loses the elements of ARCHERY and fair chase; the essense of our long season.  

To each their own, but I'll stick to arching limbs and fingers on a string.

HaHaHa! Apples and Oranges.  :bigsmyl:

Much to give pause and careful thought printed here...

Once commented to some friends who shot wheels at an open 3D, "You guys take a long time to shoot, don'tcha?"

The guy, with good humor, turned to comment "No longer than you guys scratchin for arrows after the shot"  Touche! We laughed...good point!

Thing is at "open" shoots, many of us get tempted to "try" at distances we know are not within our skill set with sticks.  Ergo, "to thine own self (and limits) be true!"  :)

Only thing I take hombrage with is that our state has now put string guns into archery season. Since we had our FIRST archery season, decades ago, a bow was defined as "hand-drawn and hand-held in the presence of game".  Xbows do NOT meet that criteria...period.

I don't like changing 30-40 yrs of law to meet mfg's economic pressures. I've always supported those with physical limitations getting permits and using Xbows to keep in the game... reasonable accomodations. Othewise, they're not archery as defined by our state law...  

Aside from that, I've seen rancor on both sides... where compound shooters, at a club OPEN shoot once ridiculed my group for having fun and laughing while they were "concentrating"--- and told us to shush!   :eek:  

Being a bit of a rebel, I inquired if we were "Playing golf or shooting 3d?"  Just a hard-core target group with 3x maginfication sights ahead of us...the rest of the Wheelies hooted at the comment...easing the tension for all but the purists!

Live and let live is a good view: Divided we fall, united we stand! We need us all to keep in the game in today's anti-movement driven world!

I do think we need to take a stand when technology promises to corrupt the very precepts of what has been legally defined as "archery" gear--- when the benefits are largely to those who stand to make a corporate profit.

But that becomes a personal preference. I will fight against the mis-use of the equipment, not those who legally use it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Tajue17:
 I now know our only enemy is the Atlatyl throwers,,, yeah watch out for those guys!! they throw everybody under the steam roller its like a secret Mason organization where nobody knows exactly what their plans or beliefs are and whenever you pass one your ears soon start ringing.....

:laughing:    :laughing:    :laughing:

Yeah, and those rock throwers, too!

I live 7 miles outside of a town of 800 people surrounded by state and national forests and wilderness. We have an active contingent of ... well I'm not sure what to call them... but they make their own buckskin clothing and moccasins and self bows and flint their own arrowheads. They  out-trad the heck out of me. They smell highly authentic too. I feel more more deadly than them with my recurve, but I can't compete with being out there every single day. And not a day goes by that a compound shooter doesn't shop in my store and we talk about deer or rabbits or something.

Again, I don't feel hostile at all toward other hunters. Out here we HAVE to get along. Those wetsiders, on the other hand...    ;)

I just worry that we could loose our primitive weapon seasons because of very high tech compounds and lord have mercy cross bows. Other than that we hunters need to be brothers.......

I kinda side with Craig and Doc on this one....I have been to trad only shoots where the topic of conversation is making fun of guys using "training wheels", and having compound bow throwing contests, shooting at compound bows, etc.  Those very same "traditionalists" who mocked training wheels promptly could not consistently hit a 3D animal at under 20 yards, let alone in the vitals.....that is what upsets me...I belong to an archery club where I am one of maybe three stickbow shooters..and the other club members appreciate our equipment, and have never been looked down on.....and most shoots I go to are mixed, and most compound shooters take time to ask about my bow, and show a respect for my choice of weapon....members at my club who shoot compounds practice constantly...shoot field, indoors, 3d, whatever..but they shoot all year....they practice with their equipment....

I am sure there are many compound shooters who deride stickbow guys, but I very rarely experience it...perhaps I am just lucky...but I have heard more negative comments about compound shooters from the trad ranks than the other way....

In PA, when compounds were first introduced as part of the archery season...everyone moaned that they would ruin the seasons..when in fact, since then, PA has increased its archery season from four to six weeks......once again..compound hunters at my club and others I know spend just as much time in the woods scouting, hanging tree stands, and hunting as any other type of hunters do....their range may be a little longer, but where I hunt here....with the type of terrain...most hunters get no more than 20 yards anyway....and with the public land pressure here, open field shots are rare..deer don't hit fields till well after shooting hours, and leave well before....

I shoot stickbows because I like shooting them...not because I think they are better, or I am better for hunting with them..or any other reason.  I just like shootin them!

Life is too short to worry about equipment choices, ground hunting vs stand hunting...camo vs plaid.....if those people would spend more time practicing, hunting, scouting..than trying to decide what is trad, and what is not...things would be alot better....if what you are hunting with is legal as far as the state I am in..then you deserve to be in the woods as much as I do....

Let's face it, there are slob gun hunters, slob compound hunters, slob trad hunters..equipment does not constitute a person and his behavior....archery, hunting, trad, etc is a microcosm of society..there are good and bad in all facets......

Lee

for me it's not so much the "type" of equipment that is used but the way some people use it. MOST trad guys I've met are way more ethical than other so called hunters...here in Colorado I get fed up with road "hunters" that do drive by shootings...if I see it happen I turn them in to the game warden in a heartbeat ...never called in on a trad hunter..haven't had to !!

As far as trad hunters being more ethical..I have not had anything to base an opinion on as others...most of our road hunters are guys with guns driving down roads at night...not heard of any compound road hunters..must be different other places...

As far as ethics...I still believe these groups are merely a small sample of society as a whole...

In the past couple years, at trad only shoots, I have experienced....

At Baltimore Bowmen Trad shoot, several 3D animal targets were stolen overnight from one of the courses...in areas where only those who attended and shot the course would have known where to look...this past year, Kirk from Bigfoot Bows, in his first year at Baltimore, came from Oregon to have some bows stolen as well..'

A few years ago at Denton Hill..Leon Stewart had several bows stolen from his booth overnight, as well as other items from vendors being stolen...leading Denton Hill to increase the number of workers having to spend the nights in the vendor tents......

Dishonesty, lack of morals and ethics, etc exist in every aspect of this society we now live in....I do not believe the choice of hunting equipment is the deciding factor in the cause or reason.....we would all like to believe that we are in a select group of hunters who have higher standards because of the equipment we choose, but I have not seen enough conclusive proof to verify that.....through my working in the business and being an active participant also........

Just saying my experience has been WAY better with trad hunters than with others in general...I shot compounds AND owned a couple archery shops as well over the years; most trad guys I've met do A LOT more practicing and true hunting than the guy that digs out his compound or rifle from under the bed a week before the season starts(if that)...in my opinion ;MOST dedicated trad guys are the cream of the crop...granted there are slobs every where you go...traditional archery is (in my opinion) more of a spiritual connection than any other "form" of hunting...at least it has been for me for the last 25 years

Situation: A guy pulls his weapon out "from under the bed a week before season" to go hunt. He kills 2 animals and is satisfied. The weapon is put away under the bed.

Is that a reason to dislike the man or his methods?

QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:
Much to give pause and careful thought printed here...

Once commented to some friends who shot wheels at an open 3D, "You guys take a long time to shoot, don'tcha?"

Therapy guy, with good humor, turned to comment "No longer than you guys scratchin for arrows after the shot"  Touche! We laughed...good point!

Thing is at "open" shoots, many of us get tempted to "try" at distances we know are not within our skill set with sticks.  Ergo, "to thine own self (and limits) be true!"   :)  


Only thing I take hombrage with is that our state has now put string guns into archery season. Since we had our FIRST archery season, decades ago, a bow was defined as "hand-drawn and hand-held in the presence of game".  Xbows do NOT meet that criteria...period.

I don't like changing 30-40 yrs of law to meet mfg's economic pressures. I've always supported those with physical limitations getting permits and using Xbows to keep in the game... reasonable accomodations. Othewise, they're not archery as defined by our state law...  

Aside from that, I've seen rancor on both sides... where compound shooters, at a club OPEN shoot once ridiculed my group for having fun and laughing while they were "concentrating"--- and told us to shush!    :eek:  

Being a bit of a rebel, I inquired if we were "Playing golf or shooting 3d?"  Just a hard-core target group with 3x maginfication sights ahead of us...the rest of the Wheelies hooted at the comment...easing the tension for all but the purists!

Live and let live is a good view: Divided we fall, united we stand! We need us all to keep in the game in today's anti-movement driven world!

I do think we need to take a stand when technology promises to corrupt the very precepts of what has been legally defined as "archery" gear--- when the benefits are largely to those who stand to make a corporate profit.

But that becomes a personal preference. I will fight against the mis-use of the equipment, not those who legally use it.

Said it better than I ever could.
Well put!!   :clapper:  

Jason

never said I wouldn't "like" the man because of the method of take ; AS long as it was legal...but in general I have a higher degree of respect for traditional hunters who work hard at their craft...traditional hunters have to work harder and smarter to harvest game in general...sometimes it comes easy ; most times not...A LOT of guys give up on traditional archery because their perception is wrong...ie:if you HAVE to harvest something to "be" successful...use a compound or a rifle it will definitely increase your odds...

QuoteOriginally posted by joe ashton:
I just worry that we could loose our primitive weapon seasons because of very high tech compounds and lord have mercy cross bows. Other than that we hunters need to be brothers.......

it has to be all or nothing,, around here the only folks shooting crossbows are handicap and I know off a couple handicap vets who use them because people chipped in and bought them as a gift. most people dont want anything to do with them, they are loud, heavy, and boring,and I hear they are a nightmare to tune..  yeah I guess like most compounds but don't forget those crossbows where around when ELB's where around so its part of the history.

as far as us losing the right to shoot sticks, I doubt it would ever happen as long as theres a community.  look at inline black powder rifles,,,,they are #1 BUT theres those others like myself who choose primitive and it will never change.

the only other way I'd say they would try to stop traditional bowhunting is if it didn't work or wasn't effective and we all know that will never be argued the success stories and photos are in the multi-millions..

I think what is important is when you encounter wheels or bystanders we need for the most part to act professional and ethical and don't show off and blow the shot which refects on the real hunt,, because what brought me here was actually seeing a guy shooting a recurve at a target butt in I think 85 and I thought it looked cool that he was actually hitting the circle, the sound of the bow and the sound of the arrows sizzling down range blew me away...

But I have no heroes or anyone that I ever looked up to that promoted or even taught me traditional archery or archery in general ..  I have to say it was that unknown person with the recurve that changed my life and if he was goofing off or missing everything I would of surely stuck with the Ithaca Double.

My only point is why do we even think more positively or negatively about a man because of the way he legally hunts? A lot of statements throughout trad archery circles seem to indicate a degree of condescension toward non-trad hunters, yet more respect for those who carry a stick. My contention is that the weapon doesn't earn my respect by even one single degree. The MAN earns my respect by what he does and how he behaves. Any guy can carry a weapon. If we assume the "weapon makes the man", that's a pretty foolish way to view people. There are a number of stickbow-carrying guys who might be better off shooting pool with their bows. I've seen some pretty ugly "tradditudes" in the 30+ years I've been hunting wheel-less. I personally think it's the "minority mentality" which causes some to constantly pick at the majority which does things another way.

Basically 100% of the comments I get from non-trad hunters are respectful and complimentary. They are struck by the success I can demonstrate. I hear trad guys talk about being "dissed" while shooting a 3D round with wheel folks. I think that happened to me once, about 25 years ago. I walked up to the guy and smiled. I used my mentor's favorite line...looked the guy in the eye and said "Meet me in the deer woods". THE LAST thing I do is pay attention to the chatter coming from a target guy's mouth...but then...I don't really give a fiddler's fart about 3D ranges. I hunt.

My mentor? He's a dedicated wheel man. He helped me get into a recurve 30+ years ago. He's still killing big deer. If he ever heard anyone from the trad community diss his bow, you know what he'd do? He'd walk up to you and smile. He'd extend an invitation.

"Meet me in the deer woods".

I am not jealous of compound bow users, or crossbow users, or even rifle hunters (I do use a rifle at times).  In fact, I sometimes pity certain people who I see as overly caught up in the consumerism of outdoor sports.

My observation is that those people who consistently take only the easy way, and wish to purchase the advantage that by rights should be earned with dirt-time and archery practice are cheating themselves.  The time and dedication required to be a proficient hunter cannot be bought.  Spending $thousands at Cabela's on all manner of electronics, precision weapons, blinds/stands/scents/camo etc. may increase my "success" if measured in sausage, but likely won't increase it if measured by my level of satisfaction.  The point is that for me, the satisfaction comes throughout the process of developing skills, and can continue year 'round.

Kevin...I agree ; the respect goes to the man...I am more than just a little prejudiced to the trad shooters though...it truly is an art form...from the bowyers that make them to the people that shoot them...it's a brotherhood of people doing it the HARD WAY...nuff said by me; over and out...

I think compound shooters are every bit as prideful as traditional bowhunters and they have the window decals to prove it.

Doesn't bother me a bit.  

Fourteen months ago I was one of them. I wasn't lazy. I wasn't an unethical hunter. I didn't love smacking a mule deer any less than I do now. I didn't bite the heads off baby rabbits or kick puppies. I didn't hoot and jeer every time I saw someone with a recurve. In fact, just the opposite. Every deer I killed with a compound was inside of 25 yards. And when I got rid of my last compound I didn't sprout wings and a halo.

I don't care for the bigger faster deadlier flames-and-sparks-and-explosions-and-electric-guitar way modern archery equipment is sold, but I understand it. They're talking to testosterone soaked 20 somethings who are looking for excitement. They're not talking to 50 year olds looking for something quiet and deep.

Right now there is a sea change going on in bowhunting with guys moving from wheel bows to trad. That's a very good thing. I hope it happens slowly. I'm just glad I woke up in time and nobody chased me away.

QuoteOriginally posted by PaddyMac:
 

I don't care for the bigger faster deadlier flames-and-sparks-and-explosions-and-electric-guitar way modern archery equipment is sold, but I understand it. They're talking to testosterone soaked 20 somethings who are looking for excitement. They're not talking to 50 year olds looking for something quiet and deep.

Right now there is a sea change going on in bowhunting with guys moving from wheel bows to trad. That's a very good thing. I hope it happens slowly. I'm just glad I woke up in time and nobody chased me away.

Couldn't agree more, except the marketing leads to things like this, which happened in the 2010 Archery season. Posted by me on PBS site 2 years ago:

What kind of information are Archery dealers giving people that are new to bowhunting?
Drove to a local WMA today after a call from my Nephew, needed help tracking a doe he shot early this morning. (He shoots compound and is becoming quite accomplished at taking game. I've Got nothing against it, that's how he chooses to hunt.)

After about 2 hours of tracking we found his doe and got her out to his truck.

When we arrived at the truck there were 2 hunters there taking an afternoon (Beer) break at the truck next to my Nephews. Both were sporting Brand new compounds complete with all the gizmos and gadgets. And the latest and greatest expandable broadheads.
Now for the sickening part..... Neither had ever shot their bows! Both bought them Friday, had dealer mount their sites and peep, slap on a quiver and nock point and they hit the woods Saturday before daylight.

Started talking with them about the effective range of their bows, and both agreed the dealer told them they were as accurate as a rifle out to 100 yards. Told them to just hold 1 of the 6 site pins on target and they couldn't miss, (as long as they used the right pin). Also went on to tell us how the dealer assured them each pin would be effective within a 10 yard range. I asked exactly what did that mean? They proceeded to explain to us how each pin would put the arrow inside a 6" circle for its set range. No need to site at the range, just set the pins equal distance apart inside the site and it's set.The 20 yard pin if held on target will hit within a 6" circle from 20 to 30 yards, the 30 will do the same out to 40 yards, and so forth. If we had 8 pins we would be good to 100 yards.

At this point my Nephew chose to head for the house to tend to his deer. I stayed behind a little longer to continue this enlightening conversation.
After another 15 minutes of these guys rewriting everything I have ever known about archery, I convinced them each to shoot at a sand pile a short distance away. Being the kind hearted person I am, I set one of their beer cans on the hill to shoot at. Told them the distance was 30 yards after walking it out and back to set the can.
They each took 2 shots..... closest only missed by 3 feet, 2 of the arrows were never found!
Finally convinced them to go and have someone teach them how to tune and shoot their bows before trying to hunt with them again this season. They thought maybe I was right about that.
As I was getting into my truck one of them said; "Maybe next year we'll be able to use a crossbow, no way I can miss with a red dot scope on my side!"

What kind of idiots are the so called outdoor shows and dollar hungry dealers turning loose in the woods with us?


I've been shooting Trad since I was 5 years old. 52 years now, was just called archery back then. Most all my friends in the 70's, 80's, and 90's  shot cable guns. I didn't care then and still don't care what they choose to shoot. As long as they are proficient with their weapon of choice.

But if you try to tell me my weapon is inferior, you better be willing to back up your words. I can put more arrows in to a kill zone faster than any cable guy, and in the past have out harvested them as far as ratio of kills to shots. And I don't have to waste time considering yardage of the shot being presented.

As long as others aren't like the idiots above, I don't care what they use. Just know how to use it, and let me do things my way.

Ragnarok and Jeff Strubberg nailed my thoughts pretty much.

Most of my friends in this state (all of my family now) hunt with compounds, so I'm certainly not anti-compound.  

And I do think some folks are somewhat amazed when I show up at a local 3-D shoot before it really opens, get first in line so I don't have to wait for groups (or just skip the first couple targets while they look through their binoculars), and literally shoot 40 targets and return to my truck while some of the early arrivals are still warming up on the butts.  And I still have all my arrows.   :)

Ha.  What irks me is that guys who could have accessed the archery season all these years (and some tried but it was too hard) now do not need archery skills to access the archery season.  They wanted the access without the requisite work that went with it.  That is disappointing to me.

While agreeing with much of the sensible things said here, I have been reminded of something: Over the years and many trails I've walked, I have grown to be a bit intolerant of intolerance. Maybe that's bad...maybe not. I've just long ago angled away from using the man's tackle to judge the man. I've met a large number of "traditional bowhunters" (over a few decades) who I (personally) didn't think qualified to own their bows. I've kept these thoughts to myself however...the same way I do many other judgements.

I know that in camp, it's not the weapon I'm relating to: it's the man. That said, I've had just as much hunting philosophy in common with many wheel and firearm friends as single-stringers. The person determines what weapon they choose, and how they behave on the hunt. That in turn is what determines who I want to sit or hunt with. The presence of a custom bow and wooden arrows does little to convince me that I share hunting philosophies with its owner.

Lastly: While some trad folks are busy not liking the methods of "modern archery" and its users, I'm 100% sure the reverse applies...and why shouldn't it? "I saw a couple longbow shooters trying to shoot the 3D course today. Those guys were missing 25 yard shots completely, and gut-shooting things like crazy. They shouldn't let someone like that be in the woods. They are bad for hunting, and bad for our reputation as careful hunters and conservationists".

I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy thinking the actions if a few people cause the judgement of many.

I think I agree more with what Kevin Dill is putting out here than anything I can articulate myself.  

I took little Miss Poundcake on our Youth Day hunt yesterday.  She is 10 years old and was hunting with a rifle.  She shot a small buck last year on youth day and the adults decided that kids that had killed a deer would have to follow the club management rules.  Well, a 4 point is the only deer we saw and she really wanted to shoot it.  The lessons/discussion on voluntary restraint ensued.  We covered some wonderful ground, sitting in that tree waiting on the light to disappear.  She has only shot longbows but wants to know when she can start bowhunting.  We discussed compound bows as an opportunity to start carrying a bow to the woods at a younger age to be able to ethically hunt with a bow.  Rifles and compounds have a role in developing hunters IMHO even if their ultimate destination is traditional archery.  Voluntary restraint, woodsmanship, conservation etc are all universal ethics that should be promoted by all "weapon camps."  None of my best friends hunt with Trad and they have taught me a LOT about hunting.  I hunt Trad exclusively because it is all that interests me.

On another note, our state just opened a bear season and the regulations exclude broadheads that aren't "expandable."  Who do you think that was directed towards?  I believe traditional archers will always be a minority and we need to vocally support all ethical hunting so that we have a leg to stand on when WE are discriminated against.

Dillbilly for President!

QuoteOriginally posted by Buxndiverdux:
I was drawn to the longbow by a thirst for more of a challenge, only to find that I have felt like more of a true hunter than ever while carrying it. There is so much more of a spiritual side of things while hunting with Trad Gear. I feel more connected with God and nature in general. I completely realize that I'm still hunting with "technology" far superioir to what the Inidians carried, but it's still a stick and a string.
I took the challenge head on knowingly giving up at least 50% of my effective range to hunt with the long bow. It was my personal choice to do so. Noone forced me to choose the longbow.
So what I have a hard time understanding is all the hate for the other hunting tools? We have chosen a higher level of challenge but berate others for their accomplishments with "easier" equipment. How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?
Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

I've never seen or experienced that in any of the places I frequent. Nor with any of my hunting buddies.

Now for myself I feel this way. I just don't care about others choices all that much... Doesn't bother me. As long as they don't bother me...

QuoteOriginally posted by Duckbutt:
...little Miss Poundcake...  

That, my friend, tells me way more about what a guy is made of than any creation found in his hand. Thanks for putting a broad smile on my face this morning!

X3 what KDill said.

mis-clicked....

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
While agreeing with much of the sensible things said here, I have been reminded of something: Over the years and many trails I've walked, I have grown to be a bit intolerant of intolerance. Maybe that's bad...maybe not. I've just long ago angled away from using the man's tackle to judge the man. I've met a large number of "traditional bowhunters" (over a few decades) who I (personally) didn't think qualified to own their bows. I've kept these thoughts to myself however...the same way I do many other judgements.

I know that in camp, it's not the weapon I'm relating to: it's the man. That said, I've had just as much hunting philosophy in common with many wheel and firearm friends as single-stringers. The person determines what weapon they choose, and how they behave on the hunt. That in turn is what determines who I want to sit or hunt with. The presence of a custom bow and wooden arrows does little to convince me that I share hunting philosophies with its owner.

Lastly: While some trad folks are busy not liking the methods of "modern archery" and its users, I'm 100% sure the reverse applies...and why shouldn't it? "I saw a couple longbow shooters trying to shoot the 3D course today. Those guys were missing 25 yard shots completely, and gut-shooting things like crazy. They shouldn't let someone like that be in the woods. They are bad for hunting, and bad for our reputation as careful hunters and conservationists".

I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy thinking the actions if a few people cause the judgement of many.

Could not have put it better Kevin.

I hunt with a lot of different weapons, and its interesting to see the different sides and reactions.
If i pull out the recurve, i take flak from the longbow guys and if i pull out the longbow i take flack from the recurves and selfbow hunters. If i pull out the compound i get flak from all the above, if i hunt with the muzzle loader  ect ..ect its Cloak and Dagger i tell you    :readit:

Before my wildlife career concluded in 2007 I spent 30 years as a "bowhunter/biologist" with increasing responsibility for evaluating and setting regulations.

Over the years I spoke to and corresponded with hunters from all walks of life, experience, and abilities. Very few were as avid, or thoughtful (my opinion) as many on this site.

However, most were upstanding folks I was proud to call hunters. A few though were so uninformed or knowingly irresponsible, I wouldn't want to share the field with them.  

A note: In a normal year KY Wildlife Officers will make about 150,000 license checks (hunters, anglers, and boaters). From these checks only about 12,000-13,000 citations are written with most of these being for  minor, careless infractions involving life-vests, boat driving, etc. This demonstrates that most sportsmen and women are upper tier in terms of abiding the law.

Some things I'ver learned:
--regulating ethics should be avoided except when the safety of others is at stake.

--hunters are often self-regulating when it comes to equipment choice and competence with same. In other words, the incompetent hunter will be unsuccessful and quit or get better. I admit some may do PR harm to our sport before they abandon their incompetent ways.

--There are folks that we are ashamed of and wouldn't choose to spend time with in all the equipment-user catergories -- as in nearly every other walk of life. Early in my career I was officed on a public gun range (Kingsbury FW Area near LaPorte, IN). Every year fellows would come in and ask for help loading their new mzzl. I've seen shotgun toters who would barely put 3 slugs on a 1/2 sheet of plywood at 50 yards and declare "Miller Time".

The good news is that poor examples of sportsmen and women are the minority. Except for a stupid headline or two they do no long-term,  broad-scale harm to the sport, our passion of hunting.

Unfortunatley I can report that I've witnessed otherwise fantastic bowhunters come to FW Commission meetings and make such rude, disrespectful, and sometimes bigotted comments(against other hunters)that they hurt the very sport they love. To some regulators we bowhunters, especially the "traditionalist", are seen as selfish, intolerant, and arrogant. I have no doubt, there have been decisions that hurt the majority of bowhunters to spite a couple who went on a public tirade.  

I can't tell you how many times I've had to "talk a decision-maker down" by reminding them that bowhunters are the most avid, hunt-loving, and law-abiding sportsmen in the field. We buy lots of equipment, spend much time hunting, and generally support our FW agencies. Oh, and we don't mind killing lots of does and cows!

One of the things we can do to promote ourselves and our passion is to relish the hunt, enjoy the kill, and be tolerant of those who have no interest or understanding how to milk as much of the hunting experience as we do.  

Every chance you get respectfully make a point of examples of law-abiding, positive ethics-driven hunter behavior.

That SC example of expandle-only heads???!! Did I read that right? Fixed-blade heads aren't allowed in SC Bear season?  I'm not an expandable head basher but in the case of thick, long bear hair I'd think just the opposite.

I am appalled and wish I could say I'm surprised, but in this case I can't.  

I am concerned that while most staff of state wildlife agencies are in-the-know sportsmen and women, too many people who have no understanding of how hunting and hunters tick are joining these ranks.

I never hired or promoted a non-hunter (except clerical). Would a car dealer hire a salesperson that doesn't drive?

Doc Noc Quote  

QuoteAside from that, I've seen rancor on both sides... where compound shooters, at a club OPEN shoot once ridiculed my group for having fun and laughing while they were "concentrating"--- and told us to shush! [Eek!]  

I've been following the posts and taking it all in here, wondering where it would go.....

When i saw this one, i had to post because this happened to me almost exactly.

I say "almost" because i was in the group behind the trad archers shooting with a compound bow with few young guys that had next years IBO freestyle champion ambitions. These guys were good shooters too, but were so serious about every shot it was taking a lot of the enjoyment out of it i was looking for.

As these guys mumbled and complained about not being able to concentrate with those guys ahead of us roaring with laughter, i realized i was going to have a lot more fun if i joined that group..... So i did...

There were 3 guys shooting home made long bows, and they were having a ball! when i asked if i could join their group, these guys didn't give my compound bow much thought at all except saying " How bout you shoot first, so we got a spot to focus on."  

After a couple targets all of these guys asked if i wanted to try their long bows out, and of course i did....and i could see right now why they were having so much fun. This stick and string stuff was tougher than it looked to get those arrows where you wanted them... The hook was set.

That was the turning point for me. And not so many years ago either. i sold my fancy compound bow two weeks later and bought a band saw.....   :biglaugh:    :biglaugh:

When i showed up in Elk camp the next fall with the first long bow i ever built, the guys thought I'd lost my mind....Since then I've built a few more bows and let the guys shoot them. Some of these guys i hunt with now are finally seeing the lure of a stick and string themselves...

I had to share that story with you Doc... hopefully a few others enjoyed it. Bottom line is that this brought a lot more FUN into the sport for me. I've always enjoyed a good challenge.   ;)    Kirk

thru the years, I've hunted with compound  bow, longbow, recurve bow, air rifles, and firearms of all kinds...(but never with black powder or crossbow. not because i don't like them, just because i never got around to getting a crossbow. i had a black powder .50 cal rifle at one time and it was stolen from me before i got to use it...)

i like 'em all.

i do believe they should be segregated in hunting seasons, though.

my point on it is get out and enjoy GOD'S great outdoors,family ,friends,or just by yourself ,me im never gonna give up hunting ,if something goes wrong and i cant shoot a bow,will do flinlock and pistol...

So many good insights I can't begin to remember to comment on each...   :(   Old age and all that...   :)  

First, I am deeply saddened by the types of things posted back a page or so about folks being sold a bow and a crock of BS to go along with the big "bill"...

I was a PT salesperson at a local big archery concession... I saw guys say and do things to sell a bow that turned my stomach. Years ago!

THAT...that attitude of "technology will make it insant success" is what kills us or will...not the choice of equipment.

It's been said eloquently here: The person, NOT the weapon. ATTITUDE...is everything.

We even get into pissin matches among ourselves on 2 blade, 3 blade, single bevel or not... blah, blah... y'know?  :dunno:  

I've shot all "fun" shoots, while a lot of you S'uthin boys shoot for competition and score. More power to you... I try stupid stuff on Foam and LEARN...NEVER to try it on live game!   :)   So fun shoots are my cup...

I, too, have seen guys trying to shoot from the big boy stakes with sticks and can't hit squat..or as my buddy's brother pipes up, "Ya hit em in the motor" for a ham shot!

We all do it... long climbs, hot days, many shots, fatigue and we falter...

There are days I practice pull a bow in the woods and KNOW..."today is a 15 yrd shot only day!" I can just TELL!

Attitudes of most..."most" trad shooters are more conservative in MY findings...but then...let me contradict myself: In recent years, I go to popular shoots and have to go day or 2 earlier each year to find a camping spot...more and more people...

are that many more coming to Trad...or just come to trad events?

Things have changed!!! No freakin doubt! People at shoots DO NOT evidence the quality attitudes around the camp, respecting others "stuff", nor any of the qualities so engrained in shoots I first attended for 20 yrs! Last 5 yrs, things are really changing...

Why wouldn't they? We're drawing from a much larger cross-section of society.

Now were back to lee Vivian's comments... it's still NOT the equipment...but the individuals and their values, mores and attitudes!

Some folks get damned by "association", but the truth is that our "distinction", as trad being "different" is fast changing from what I see as a broader spectrum of folks showing up at some trad shoots would suggest!

Best we can do is to be quietly firm in our beliefs, share our thoughts and reasons why we do what we do, out of respect for each other, the landowner, and most of all, the animals we hunt!

People who evidence that are found in very camp, be it gun, bow or stick... Xbow guys too...but now that anyone can use them, I see /hear all the "but I can shoot 80 yards now!"

Sigh...    

Party time!   :(

well last summer i went to a 3d shoot(open to all not just traditional)my wife had her little parker buckshot compound and i had my longbow...people looked at me like i had three eyes or 4 ears or something..it was interesting to see how fast the new mechanical arrow launching devices will fling a arrow!But i was looked upon as having the plague or something...oh well!  :archer:

Its not what's in their hand - its what's in their heart.  Shoot what you want.  Respect the game and the law.  All the rest is nonsense.

I shot a compound for several years, I dont have any negative feelings toward other bows. Its still hunting but for me, something was missing.
Going "Trad" filled a void in my life. I'm more spiritually connected to archery, my recurves and nature.

I actually wasn't aware that there is that much hostility, animosity or even concern. . .  I don't think there is frankly.
ChuckC

Pretty decent thread. I really wanted trad. I like it better than the wheels. This year was my first year full trad. I killed, and then lost one that could have easily been taken with a wheel bow. It was a close shot. The 1.5 years of practice just had not been enough to execute a 15 yard shot. Needless to say I got the training wheels out after than. Not too sure if I'll ever go back or not.

I love to hunt, I have a high respect for the game, I have a general distaste for all the marketing and hype on "the other side". But in the case of lost deer on an easy shot....Its a personal decision that was not easy, but its the one I made.


I really like this site alot, and will probably lurk mostly.

I guess I'm a compound traditionalist...

B

Last 3D shoot I went to,by the 3rd target the 2 compound shooters broke out their tools to adjust their bows because I was shooting as good as them.As the round progressed they surpassed me in score but both were very complimentary on my ability to shoot well at the begining.
For me,
Staying focus on shooting 20+ targets is very hard to do but I'm more concerned w/ the 1st arro over any other I shoot.

This is a great site. I have always figured the majority of people here were very open to all hunting and hunters.  However, I have seen the type thing this post was started to address.  It can be at times blatant, but most many times underlying in posts I read and stuff I hear.  I am not talking about the stuff that is related to the site being trad only.  That is all good.  Often it is just some good-natured fun, and I do not think most would say a thing to someone about their choice of weapon or not want someone to get into hunting unless they were trad.  

People show their little prejudices without knowing it.  We all do it at times.  Things like calling compounds wheelie bows, or acting like it is the end of the world when gun season opens; not my favorite time of the fall, but everyone should have their opportunity to legally hunt the way they want without someone feeling like they are being somehow wronged by it.  I know I occasionally get a little ruffled by some gun hunters or the xbow thing, but I have no issue with any hunting method or weapon. I get the longest seasons and more than my share of hunting time and  game.

I have belonged to clubs that were all traditional and some that were mixed. Although I enjoyed both I probably have more fun in the all traditional club.

Traditional and wheelies are like shotguns and rifles. They are not the same. You don't shoot skeet with a rifle and you don't shoot at deer 300 yards away with a shotgun. The problems occur when you treat them as the same. If you shoot traditional and you belong to a club where you're in the minority, you might find the targets set a little further than you'd like.

I was working at a tournament once where a wheelie shooter had (unknowingly to the rest of the range crew) had reset the stakes for traditional to where they were only a few feet from the wheelie stakes. One of the first persons that I ask about the course said that he had missed 12 out of the 20 3-D targets and that he would never shoot this course again. (As far as I know he never did.) The average score for traditional that day was about 50 points below the normal, and it took the fun out of shooting for many of the traditional participants. I'm sure that many of you have experienced this.

QuoteOriginally posted by bawana bowman:
 

Posted by me on PBS site 2 years ago:

What kind of information are Archery dealers giving people that are new to bowhunting?
Drove to a local WMA today after a call from my Nephew, needed help tracking a doe he shot early this morning. (He shoots compound and is becoming quite accomplished at taking game. I've Got nothing against it, that's how he chooses to hunt.)

After about 2 hours of tracking we found his doe and got her out to his truck.

When we arrived at the truck there were 2 hunters there taking an afternoon (Beer) break at the truck next to my Nephews. Both were sporting Brand new compounds complete with all the gizmos and gadgets. And the latest and greatest expandable broadheads.
Now for the sickening part..... Neither had ever shot their bows! Both bought them Friday, had dealer mount their sites and peep, slap on a quiver and nock point and they hit the woods Saturday before daylight.

Started talking with them about the effective range of their bows, and both agreed the dealer told them they were as accurate as a rifle out to 100 yards. Told them to just hold 1 of the 6 site pins on target and they couldn't miss, (as long as they used the right pin). Also went on to tell us how the dealer assured them each pin would be effective within a 10 yard range. I asked exactly what did that mean? They proceeded to explain to us how each pin would put the arrow inside a 6" circle for its set range. No need to site at the range, just set the pins equal distance apart inside the site and it's set.The 20 yard pin if held on target will hit within a 6" circle from 20 to 30 yards, the 30 will do the same out to 40 yards, and so forth. If we had 8 pins we would be good to 100 yards.

At this point my Nephew chose to head for the house to tend to his deer. I stayed behind a little longer to continue this enlightening conversation.
After another 15 minutes of these guys rewriting everything I have ever known about archery, I convinced them each to shoot at a sand pile a short distance away. Being the kind hearted person I am, I set one of their beer cans on the hill to shoot at. Told them the distance was 30 yards after walking it out and back to set the can.
They each took 2 shots..... closest only missed by 3 feet, 2 of the arrows were never found!
Finally convinced them to go and have someone teach them how to tune and shoot their bows before trying to hunt with them again this season. They thought maybe I was right about that.
As I was getting into my truck one of them said; "Maybe next year we'll be able to use a crossbow, no way I can miss with a red dot scope on my side!"

What kind of idiots are the so called outdoor shows and dollar hungry dealers turning loose in the woods with us?


I've been shooting Trad since I was 5 years old. 52 years now, was just called archery back then. Most all my friends in the 70's, 80's, and 90's  shot cable guns. I didn't care then and still don't care what they choose to shoot. As long as they are proficient with their weapon of choice.

But if you try to tell me my weapon is inferior, you better be willing to back up your words. I can put more arrows in to a kill zone faster than any cable guy, and in the past have out harvested them as far as ratio of kills to shots. And I don't have to waste time considering yardage of the shot being presented.

As long as others aren't like the idiots above, I don't care what they use. Just know how to use it, and let me do things my way. [/qb]

I respect your opinion but I think many of us forget that there was a time when Fiberglass recurves were the big new compound of it's day. I am certain that there were plenty of guys roaming the fields in the 60's with a brand new bow they had never shot that the dealer told them they "couldn't miss with" and the Nels Grumleys of the time thought those guys had no business being out their. There will always be irresponsible guys in the woods no matter what they are hunting with. Not limited to compounds.

Mortgage, kid in college, another kid with braces, long hours at work, family committments, kids sporting events..etc etc,  What someone else legally hunts with is about 128th on my list of things to worry about.

QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
I actually wasn't aware that there is that much hostility, animosity or even concern. . .  I don't think there is frankly.
ChuckC

I belong to two archery clubs, maybe 300 people in both, never had anyone say anything to me but have heard some traditional guys say stuff about compounds. Only thing a compound guy would do is ask questions and small talk with you, never hostile.

tuscarawasbowman: just to be clear, that wasn't my post.

But...

I just had an experience yesterday. I was out hunting invisible wabbits and saw nuttin' and climbed down off the mountain and then saw a vole (a fat short tailed mouse) and it was running from clump of grass to clump of grass and I couldn't get a shot at it. I was skipping along behind it trying to maintain good form. And there I was at full draw kicking at the clumps trying to get him to run. This is alongside some wheat stubble on a Wildlife Management Area in about 2 inches of snow. And I'm drawing and undrawing and hopping and kicking and drawing. And then I look up at about ten yards away from me in a big jacked Ford pickup -- which I never heard! -- with two "kids" in orange on a dirt/ice lane who, I'm sure, couldn't see what the hell I was aiming at. And one of them said, "I don't know what you're doing, but that is a pretty cool bow."

True story.

I could care less what other people hunt with.  I just like to catch bass with my home made plugs.  Trout on my home made fly's.  Deer, squirrels and rabbits on my home made bows.  

One day I hope to catch trout on a home made split bamboo rod.

Today I brought home a 60 year old Lefever shotgun because I can't stand the way today's 8-9lb, 2x4 looking, over/unders look.  

I'm with Mudd, hunting is more than killing, there is an air of history if not romance that goes with it that I like.  I mean really, would anyone even watch Robin Hood if he was known for his compound accuracy.

Sorry I got on a rant and didn't answer your question.  

I don't know any traditional archers that are "hostile" to other bows, with the possible exception of cross bows.  

I can't answer for them.

Wow, Mike I didn't know that you did all of those things. I have made a bow or two, caught bass and bream on a fly that I made, but making a lure, and catching trout are two things that have eluded me. I have thought about making a flyrod however.

QuoteOriginally posted by 7 Lakes:
...........hunting is more than killing, there is an air of history if not romance that goes with it that I like. ............

While I agree, I think it is important to point out that we can feel that way to an extent because we have excess food, time, and money.  In the past most people went out and killed stuff to eat and cloth themselves.  White there has always been some spirituality in many cultures around hunting, it was not universal among all hunters or cultures at all times.   Often hunters were thankful for what they got as they should be, but Face it, in the past most hunter went out and did everything possible to kill something. They didn't think it was so fun and a great time if they came home empty handed to hungry family, tribe or whatever.  .

I find it funny how we go around about a difference in equipment based on a minimal real world difference in actually usage.  Most people do not shoot that far with a compound.  I know may compound hunters and they do not shoot much past about 30 yd on rare occasions hunting and most times a lot less. Most of them have never shot in any kind of organized target shoot, and do not shoot very far at all in practice or hunting. Do some research on average kill ranges on the compound bow hunting sites.   I have and found most times it works out to be about 20 yd.  Hard for me to understand all the fuss about another 10 yd. or less average for a shot with a compound vs. a trad bow, and that is about all it is in many parts of the country in actual hunting conditions.  If you need some sites and let off to shoot well and hit what you shoot at, that is just fine with me.  Make a good shot.  So what they shoot accurate and can hold the bow longer than I can.  I can draw and shoot a close moving target faster then they can figure range and hook on with their release.

How you dress, look, or talk hasen't anything to do with how you act/interact with people.

So shooting a stick bow or compound has nothing to do with you being a jerk.

Well it's easy. If you can feel superior to the guy having backstrap for breakfast whilst you're chowing down on tag stew because you chose a "purer" way to hunt. That's how you'll roll

i was a staff shooter for pse for 3 years..our group was told to be quiet many times we had a hell of a time shooting around the 3rd year something happened to me..i quit having fun shooting i was coming home with headaches from the pressure of people expecting me to win..one day i happened to be in nixa mo an went by blackwidow an came home with a recurve i have never looked back.
    the only regret is that i didn't  do it 10 years sooner. i don't think there is a group of people bar none that are better people that would help out damn near strangers than the trad community!!! i have seen it in action
    so let the comments fly..i know the truth..

I see what happened PaddyMac. Sorry about that I fixed it.

ive been shooting bows since 1984 (age 18 ) i started with recurves & played with a compound ( hoyt buck )for about a year then went back to the wooden bows . i went on my 1st hunt in 2006 (africa ) with my blackwidow & then again in 2009 ,the same year i lost a dear friend to cancer ( he was comming on the hunt but never made it ) god rest him , he used a compound & before the trip we agreed that on the hunt we`d try each others bows .i went over to compound after the trip & went back to africa with it last august .i took 5 animals with 5 arrows .
the biggest a gemsbok i shot at 20yds (65lb compound )& didnt recover it     :knothead:     my wheel bow`s up for sale & my lovely girlfriend got me a buffalo for xmass     :notworthy:    my point i dont think one is better than the other ,just different like all of us   :campfire: