I have a new rule for myself. I place a 17 yard ring around me. If the animal is within that ring i shoot if the shot is right. Outside of that i pass.
jeremy
35 - 45 yards is too long for me and I'd feel like crap wounding and not recovering any animal at that distance because I know it is beyond my effective range.
if your confident you can make the shot,..go for it...makes no difference what the animal is sqirrel...rabbit....deer...pig...chineese chicken(pheasant).
i am new to trad, so i cant answer on yardage limit etc, but i have hunted extensively with wheeled contraptions and rifles and pistols, and have to say for me personally that no wounded animal is acceptable, period. Yes, when hunting, the possibility of wounding is a part of it and will unfourtunitly occasionally happen, but as an ethical hunter i feel its my responsibility to only take high percentage shots on animals i have no doubts about killing, and if i wound or miss then i know i have to work on it and become proficient at the range or that kind of shot before i will ever take it at an animal again. But these kind of decisions can only be made for ourselves. everyones experiances and comfort level and shooting style and shooting platform, etc etc etc is completely different.
So if it works for you and you feel comfortable with it then you are the only one that can make that determination. For me though, i will be taking only shots i KNOW i will make and stick to my self imposed limits.
Happy Hunting
Fin
For myself 25 yards is the max,feel more comfortable at 20.
Hey if you can make the long shots then get after it.I don't practice enough for that long of a shot.Its funny that I can bounce a tennis ball all over the yard at those ranges.Even out to 45 yards,but shoot at my deer targets that far Its either over or under.Guess theres something to aim small miss small.
I am disgusted with that line of thinking. I am sick to death of people saying wounding animals is a part of hunting. If you are an ethical hunter and know your limitations wounding should very seldom happen. If you can't shoot consistantly at a particular range in practice you have no business shooting at an animal at that range. If it is so important to kill an animal on video that you feel the need to take stupid shots on game get a .300 mag. I hope nobody buys any of your videos.
+1 jrstegner! I posted the first comment.... but it's gone????
Gotta agree after rereading your thread if your only wounding at 15 yards why would you want to shoot past that.
QuoteIf i wanted to drop them 100% of the time in there tracks i would use a 300 win magnum.
jeremy [/QB]
I may be wrong but I get the feeling you think it is acceptable to loose animals because you shoot traditional.?. I set limitations on my own abilities not my equipments and if something negative happens it is my fault and not the equipment I am shooting. I expect to find every animal I shoot.
I'm wondering why you wound animals at ALL ranges? If I missed/wounded an animal at 20 yards
I would never shoot at anything over 15 until I had killed several within THAT distance, and felt confident to try a longer shot; first time I missed that longer shot........back to ten or fifteen. I tend to go along with jrstegner.
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
I'm speechless on this one!
If I didn't know better I'd say we have a Troll here; and I wish we did! Yikes!! 300 Mag sounds like the right choice for you.
I read something very interesting the other day discussing this...long story short...some bowhunters (some were wheelies) were claiming to be willing to take shots at a game animal at 45, 55, even 65 yds. When challenged to make the shot at a target at these distances, where only the vital area was target material and it was surrounded by steel plate painted to match the target, many would not take a long shot because they "didn't want to ruin a $10+ arrow". IMO this places the value of the animal...to them...less than $10 and that seems unethical to me. Many folks ruined arrows and learned something about themselves...others backed thier claim. If one isn't willing to risk damaging an arrow under ideal conditons, why risk wounding an animal under field conditions? I thought it was a thought provoking way guage true capabilities by adding some personal risk. Any opinions on this? Try it with nice hunting arrows and post pics?....Might make an interesting string...although it might get rough to see too many beautiful broken woodies :D
Don't worry about yardage. Either you feel like you can make the shot or you feel like you can't. Glad you have thick skin...some folks around here can be a bit harsh.
thanks for the comments, i have new attitude toward distance
jeremy
Some subjects are off limits because any answer offends someone. This is one of those subjects. What I shoot and how I shoot is is my business. I keep it that way. I have myself and God to answer to. Not important what I so or do not do to anyone but me. I keep it that way.
This is one of those things where if I answer that you are wrong then you are offended. If I answer that you are right then everyone that thinks you are wrong is offended. Hmmmmmmmm,.
One thing I do see though. If you think its ok to hunt like you hunt,. Then why are you asking for other peoples opinions?
Answers I see. One , You do not really think its ok. but you want to justify it.
Two you want to stir things up just for stirring sake with an in your face post that you know will draw fire.
God bless you all, Steve
I feel wounds are a part of hunting, no one likes it but it is a reality IMO, im am putting a tighter nose on my shots to try to limit them. But the reality is they happen no matter the weapon or distance. If you say you never wound animals then i see you havent killed very many either.
jeremy
Well Jeremy I think you took the comments like a man. I think most people who practice diligently have a good idea what their distance limit for a particular shot should be. Shooting beyond that limit and hoping it turns out good, well for me personally becomes an ethical issue. I hate wounding animals because I took a shot I knew should have passed on.
Good hunting to you.
sixby, well said. I had no idea i would get this type of reation. i was like wow, i was just trying to see roughly where people were comfortable, i see people shoot really well at ranges out to 40 and i havent ever really asked anyone if they shoot animals that far. Im a simple guy, surely wasnt trying to strike a nerve with anyone
yikes. Raw is good thuogh. I have learned a lot from this site and its members, sometimes the hard way
jeremy
elknuts, tradgangers arnt sugar coaters they tell it like it is dont they. Gotta love em
peace, and im officailly cooling my jetts
over and out
jeremy
don't shoot at the critters you think you can hit, shoot at the ones you KNOW you cant miss!
I do not think that this is as much an ability issue as it is a maturity issue. In many respects.... $$$$$$$$$$
Jeremy, One thing is for sure my friend. You are welcome at my camp anytime and someday I would be proud to build a bow for you. I love the way you recieved what was said to you.
God bless you , Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
Jeremy, One thing is for sure my friend. You are welcome at my camp anytime and someday I would be proud to build a bow for you. I love the way you recieved what was said to you.
God bless you , Steve
thanks steve, your a good man
I never draw a line, they are always crooked. that is, I really don't know what I can do until I have tried a couple of shots on any given day. Sure I can hit a deer target on flat ground out to thirty yards most of the time, but a really nervous deer at 15 yards, when I am off position is a lot tougher for a ground hunter. I blew such a shot this year an hour after nearly taking the head off of a pheasant flying at about 50 yards this year. Defining lines are tough to predict on live creatures.
As long as arrows travel at speeds slower than sound, anything can happen, even on the "gimme" shots.
A wound is a horrible thing, they do happen no matter the weapon used.
The only way to 100 percent assure that it won't happen is... don't loose your arrow!
If there's any doubt, don't shoot.
You can only control what you do but nothing that the critter your hunting does. We all like to think we know what it's going to do based on the best information we have but in truth we are just kidding ourselves and making a "best guess".
I quit believing in "gimmes" and watch for the highest percentage for success shots then decide whether to take it or not.
Needless to say... I don't often drop the string.
I wouldn't dream of trying to tell someone else when to shoot or not to shoot.
It's not what you are willing to do when anyone is watching but what you'd do if no one were looking that defines your ethics.(IMHO)
God bless,Mudd
Deciding what shot to take or not is one of the most personal decisions in bowhunting.
I think a person can adopt tips from others about form, tuning, and practice strategies. I don't think one can borrow another person's ethic. Ethics become yours the instant you decide to be guided by them. I can't say I'll shoot this or that distance because someone else does or doesn't.
I think when one decides to shoot at a live animal the shot should be such a sure thing that the archer is absolutely shocked (and dismayed) if something goes wrong.
This off season I plan to use a practice technique I used for years with 'other' archery equipment. When practicing outdoors I'm going to try to make myself shoot more at 30 yards than at closer distances. I'll do this not because I desire to take 30 yard shots but to tighten my groups at 25 and under.
I fear I may get really bored doing this though, I like mixing it up.
Most of my practice to date has been at 20, 15, and 10 yards.
2008 was the the last year i shot a wheel bow and 8 of the 9 deer i killed were all less than 15yds.
I have always wanted to shoot trad but never did until that last year when it was so easy making those short shots.
Its funny but rarely do i see deer that are to far away. When your sitting around 4-5 big white oaks and pent oaks the deer are going to come by you 99% of the time.
Joe Van
More often than not, there are very few clear shots past 20 yards where I hunt anyway. I'd rather test my patience and see if I can get them much closer anyway.
I guess I look at it different. I don't look at it as yardage but in my confidence if I can make the shot. I had a buddy come and help me get a buck out this year and he asked me how far that shot was and I said maybe 30 yards, he hit it with the range finder at 42 yards. I just knew I could make the shot and took it. I have also passed up deer at 10 yards where the shot didn't feel right. I guess it is a feeling rather than ranging.
I was on a caribou hunt a number of years ago. I shot a nice caribou at about 35 yards or so. I was so excited the guide asked me to "take a walk" so he could finish skinning and capeing it. On my "walk" I had another caribou at 20 yards or less. I didn't take the shot because he was on full alert. My only point being is that distance is not the only factor one has to consider when taking a shot. I killed two deer that traveled only 10 yards or so after my arrow deflected off of unseen twigs. I've also wounded deer because they were too close for shooting out of a tree stand. I agree that it is important to know your limitations as far as shooting accuracy is concerned but that is only one variable.
I agree that an archer should limit himself to shots that he's quite "certain" he'll make . . . even if he's occasionally wrong.
But, there's great irony surrounding this topic. I wish FRED BEAR were around to voice his opinion on this matter. It would be fascinating.
Read Mr. Bear's published "field notes" if you haven't already. He and his pals regularly shot at deer and other big game at 50 yards, 70 yards, and more. They missed. They wounded. And they just keep flinging arrows. (No, these guys weren't shooting better equipment than we have AND they weren't better shots than many of us on this site.)
Please don't tell me that times have changed. A shot that should not have been taken is a shot that should not have been taken, regardless of the era or the man shooting the bow.
I mention the above to provide perspective . . .
Mark
QuoteOriginally posted by mmilinovich:
Read Mr. Bear's published "field notes" if you haven't already. He and his pals regularly shot at deer and other big game at 50 yards, 70 yards, and more. They missed. They wounded. And they just keep flinging arrows. (No, these guys weren't shooting better equipment than we have AND they weren't better shots than many of us on this site.)
Please don't tell me that times have changed. A shot that should not have been taken is a shot that should not have been taken, regardless of the era or the man shooting the bow.
I mention the above to provide perspective . . .
Mark
Agreed, and I had a similar reaction reading "Hunting the Hard Way." No disrespect to HH, but he was both an impressive marksman
and he took a lot of ridiculously long shots and wounded a lot of animals as a result, at times requiring numerous arrows to finish the deed.
Yet any time this is pointed out, the immediate reaction is that, "those were different times." The truth is, they really weren't that different. I think it would be a good thing if we could get past the "sainthood" of some of these icons, and recognize that the truth, and possibly their motivations, were more complex than we typically acknowledge. But then again, I'm not a huge fan of hero worship in general (not to be confused with respect).
As to your question, Jeremy - I don't think you need to hear from others to know the answer. That decision can only come from you, and what you can live with.
QuoteOriginally posted by Smithhammer:
QuoteOriginally posted by mmilinovich:
Read Mr. Bear's published "field notes" if you haven't already. He and his pals regularly shot at deer and other big game at 50 yards, 70 yards, and more. They missed. They wounded. And they just keep flinging arrows. (No, these guys weren't shooting better equipment than we have AND they weren't better shots than many of us on this site.)
Please don't tell me that times have changed. A shot that should not have been taken is a shot that should not have been taken, regardless of the era or the man shooting the bow.
I mention the above to provide perspective . . .
Mark
Agreed, and I had a similar reaction reading "Hunting the Hard Way." No disrespect to HH, but he was both an impressive marksman and he took a lot of ridiculously long shots and wounded a lot of animals as a result, at times requiring numerous arrows to finish the deed.
Yet any time this is pointed out, the immediate reaction is that, "those were different times." The truth is, they really weren't that different. I think it would be a good thing if we could get past the "sainthood" of some of these icons, and recognize that the truth, and possibly their motivations, were more complex than we typically acknowledge. But then again, I'm not a huge fan of hero worship in general.
As to your question, Jeremy - I don't think you need to hear from others to know the answer. That decision can only come from you, and what you can live with. [/b]
that was a really good post, both of them. I enjoy shooting at game at long range, 35-45 yards always have prob always will. But im now changed and i realize its just not for me now. I know it decreases my chances greatly and the game doesnt deserve it. Look back at all the post. wow!!!!!! Poeple are as passionate about this site as anything i have ever seen, pretty impressive. im sticking to 3d targets for now at that distance they dont move.
jeremy
Jeremy, one thing you will find is that the better shot you become the better chance you will have at getting an arrow in a deer. The problem then becomes what happens after you release the arrow and what does the deer do. When I was half as good a shot as I am now I had 7 straight years with 7 arrows released and 7 whitetails down. A couple of yrs. ago I released 4 straight arrows at completely relaxed deer under 15 yds. and shaved hair off either the chest and back of three and doubled lunged the 4th. Alot can happen after the release and it's our obligation to be the best we can and stick to our personal limits..you're on the right path my friend and keep working at it!
under perfect conditions I will 'consider' 25 yards, but prefer 20 and under.
Years ago I hunted with a guy who said things like "you can't track them if they are not bleeding so shot!!!" I only hunted with ONE DAY, and never again.
i think that robhood23, bill carlsen, mmilinovich, and smithhammer summed up my opinions on this thread.
i agree w/ their responses x2!!
also, regardless of what people think there is no substitute for hard work practice and confidence in anything we do, especially hunting..
I don't really 'judge' the yardage with my trad bow with anything other than my mind. If I feel like I can make it, I take the shot.
That said, that distance is really about 17-18 yards. Anything beyond that and I'm not comfortable. I try to have all my set ups allow for a 10-15 yard shot to stay well within my comfort zone.
Howard Hill acknowledged that early on in his hunting with a longbow he took long shots. He wrote about limiting his shots and how he would be more effective than taking longer shots at game. I will find the exact passage in "Hunting the Hard Way" this evening.
Today many traditional archer has lowered that distance and believes that longer shots are always "unethical". We try to put a number to things and measure it and say, okay here is the standard of practice, the limit. Ethics are what you do when no one is watching us.
There is more "societal pressure" to be efficient in our taking of game. A clean kill is the ideal of course. Bowhunting by it nature is rarely ideal. The outdoors are not a lab where one can control all variables to perfection. Anyone that has hunted for anytime would acknowledge that fact.
I recently read some writing by Gary Sentman in which he described wounding an elk, due to glancing off an unforseen branch. A variable that he simply did not have control over. He wrote about having to shoot multiple arrows at long distance in pursuit to get an arrow in the elk. That is his ethics. He could have just let the elk go off. But he pursued, even with fading light and adapted to the situation at hand, running to the animal to get in position before darkness fell. Making every effort to get another arrow in the animal.
What attracts us to self-imposed limitations on our equipment or method in taking game? When we no longer have any degree of uncertainty in shooting at game, then something about the adventure of hunting is lost. We all have that with bowhunting. We learn about ourselves, our abilities, our determination to see the hunt through with each adventure. No matter how far the critter was from us.
If we call ourselves instinctive shooters then how do you judge distance. I cant tell how far a deer is 25-30 yards. I do know when a deer is close enough to shoot and when he isnt but I cant tell you how far he is away in yardage. Three years ago I shot a buck that I just knew that I could make the shot on. The shot was right on and I watch that deer die. He ran about 10yds and then walk another 70 and fell over. I hit that deer right were I was looking. My buddy said that was a long shot and I said it wasnt that far. He hunts with the wheels so he ranged it at 36 yards. I just felt comfortable with that shot at that time so I took it.
when in doubt let them walk.
I always love to see people get mad and try to force their ethics onto others which is both silly and in it's own way unethical. You have every right to determine what is ethical for you. You have no right to judge others based on your ethics. I have very firm opinions on ethics and hunt with people of like ethics. That doesn't mean I can push others around to meet my ethical standards.
I passed on four does with young early season this year. Lots of folks would have shot them. A few trad archers I know would have and said so. It violated my ethics to do so and I didn't. Normally I will shoot to 25 yards at deer and 35 at elk. In open country if I know I can make the shot I would extend that to 35 and 45 yards. On the other hand I have passed on 20 yard shots at elk since I did not feel I could make the shot cleanly in that situation. Every situation and every hunters skills are different. For someone who hunts from tree stands you will hear a different story than from an open ground desert hunter.
So while I support everyones right to their ethics and opinions We all need to remember they are just that. Are the Inuit unethical when they spear kill a sleeping walrus or gut shoot and track an animal until it dies? They have been doing these things for millenia. For them it is a way of life and is within their ethical behavior patterns. How about whale hunting. Inuit do it to live yet you and I cannot. Ethics are far more complex than one or two peoples opinions.
Kind of hard to answer,I don't shoot known yardage for practice and don't try to guess yardage on an unfamiliar course, I try to let things fall into place and let the arrow go. If it looks right under hunting circumstances I take the shot, if it doesn't look right I wait until the shot develops or the animal leaves/or busts me,as far as the older guys go they had a business interest in hunting,I think you risk more when more is at risk,(hope that makes sense.)Does that make taking questionable shots alright? Certainly not,even if a lot of the practice at the time was on field archery courses that had some far distances,not 3D courses with "ethical hunting distances" unfortunately the respect for the animals didn't seem to be there at the time,and this type of thinking eventually led to the seasons, limits, and laws we have today,and thankfully so, or we may not have the animal populations that we do.Wait for your do-able shot to happen,unforeseen circumstances will sometimes bite you no matter how prepared you are,don't take anything for granted and be prepared for the worst,it will often happen.
2x on Mudd's. I used the word "gimmee" in one of my posts on here early this fall regarding coyotes and I think I jinxed myself so bad I have only been on full draw on two grouse since. Never again.
But that said, I feel comfortable at 20 yards with a clear shot but I've passed on closer shots because of the chance of hitting brush or branches or the alignment was bad. Under ideal conditions I would take a 25 yard shot, but nothing longer I don't think. But I do shoot at my target regularly at 40+ yards and not too pathetically. I wouldn't pass on a 40 yard shot on a 3D course.
I do shoot long at quail though, figuring it's almost always either a kill or a miss.
I had a fork mulie buck jump string on me once in my training wheel days and I had that horrible green yuck on my feathers on the passed thru arrow. I was up all night tracking little tiny pin head drops of blood in tinder dry sagebrush with a gas lantern. Bad berries. Dark thoughts. Then all of a sudden there he was, about a mile away from where I shot him. I almost gave up not just bowhunting but all hunting after that. It took a long time to get over it. I don't want to feel that way again. So I try to be very careful.
On deer and similarly sized animals, I keep all my shots 20 yards or under. Preferably well under that yardage, even though I am proficient in practice out to 30 yards. I would push the yardage a little if a shot at an elk-sized animal presented itself, but not much.
Incidentally, every animal I ever lost was my fault and those losses could have been prevented by simply being more prudent in terms of shot selection.
Diamonback, I love that iron deer concept for those who think they can hit long yardages. For anyone who hasn't had the opportunity to shoot an iron deer it is quite the humbling experience, even at close range. Your mind plays tricks on you.
I personally don't take shots unless I feel they are a sure thing. I passed on two pigs this year at what I estimated at 30 yards. I asked myself "Can I hit a perpetually moving softball sized target at 30 yards?" and said "NO". I spooked them trying to close the gap. I can live with myself though.
The contest for me is not 'how far can I shoot' it is 'how close can I get'. Sometimes you can get very, very close.
Hey Jeremy,
I just wanted to commend you on this thread. When I saw your original post I knew you were gonna get a lot of flack from everyone and I really expected you to fire back in defense. Instead, you took the comments like a man and obviously did some soul searching. Your responses were great and not defensive in the least. You took something that I fully expected to become an ugly debate and turned it into a positive discussion on shot ethics. You even went back and edited your original post. Well done and you've definitely earned my respect.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
John
QuoteOriginally posted by jsweka:
Hey Jeremy,
I just wanted to commend you on this thread. When I saw your original post I knew you were gonna get a lot of flack from everyone and I really expected you to fire back in defense. Instead, you took the comments like a man and obviously did some soul searching. Your responses were great and not defensive in the least. You took something that I fully expected to become an ugly debate and turned it into a positive discussion on shot ethics. You even went back and edited your original post. Well done and you've definitely earned my respect.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
John
many thanks,
jeremy
Ethics is very interesting as most people hold others to higher standards than they really practice themselves. This all comes down to a decision each of has to make and live with.
Hunting seldom compares to practace even 3d, so I practice
At least 10 yard further than I will let myself shoot hunting
sort of aim small miss small so far this has worked well for me
but can be agonizing not taking a shot but less than tracking
a bad one
I dont have a line I have ethics. I owe it to the animal.
For me it's just about 15 yards for now, though it might go out by 2 or 3 with practice - if I find a single bow that contains the best features of the individual ones I shoot now.
I don't even think about how far it might be, and never consider to shoot or not shoot.
When a situation presents itself, I subconciously(sp) shoot or I don't. It's like I KNOW it's a good shot or not. I double lunged an antelope at 60 yards once, it was like there was no place else that arrow could go but right in the pocket. Never realized it was that far until afterwards, and I've passed up shots under 10 yards. Never hesitated on either instance but I can't explain either one to you.
Wounding is never an issue for me...you have to actually HIT the animal to wound it :D
Good thread...everyone is different. I personally don't feel comfortable past 25 yds and even at 25 the shot has to feel right. I much prefer 20 and under.
As with Biggie, I never really think about yardage, but rather how the shot feels...it just so happens that it starts to FEEL bad at about 25 yds ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
The contest for me is not 'how far can I shoot' it is 'how close can I get'. Sometimes you can get very, very close.
x2
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
I don't even think about how far it might be, and never consider to shoot or not shoot.
When a situation presents itself, I subconciously(sp) shoot or I don't. It's like I KNOW it's a good shot or not. I double lunged an antelope at 60 yards once, it was like there was no place else that arrow could go but right in the pocket. Never realized it was that far until afterwards, and I've passed up shots under 10 yards. Never hesitated on either instance but I can't explain either one to you.
:thumbsup:
There is no distance at which one can shoot and never miss.
For those who haven't read my thread titled "A Huntin Story", I blew a shot on a nice 12 point back in Nov. I shot the deer in the spine from a distance of 12 yds. 12 frickin yards. I can shoot the pecker off a gnat at 12 yds. But on this day I did not. I eventually recovered the carcass 8 weeks later.
There is no distance at which one can shoot and never miss. Every shot is its own beast. To classify shots as "take" or "No take" based on yardage alone is false logic. Shoot enough game and you will blow a shot inside your sacred yardage line.
Whatcha gonna do then??? Only shoot game within the length of your arrow??
Dang, this thread makes me want to stick to shooting targets and buy my steaks at the grocery store.
Every situation is different. I had a bad year last year recovering deer. When I would shoot them they would "duck" so bad that even when I aimed low I barely even scratched their backs. There would be a very small amount of blood on the arrow and NO blood on the ground. My whole camp did grid searches and everything we could to find those deer. The only thing that matters in the end is that you give it everything you've got. **** will happen and when it does all you can do is take it.
To shoot or not is the single most important decision I make during a hunt. Missing bothers me a lot. Wounding bothers me a lot more. Mortallly wounding and not recovering becomes part of my life as a hunter story.
In 45 years of bowhunting, more than 100 shots at big game, I wonder about the outcome of 4 shots (did the deer die or not). Unfortunately, I know the outcome of 1. Every shot was taken well within every parameter of my personal ethic set but still, like some have posted here, it didn't work out.
Equipment selection and practice are great fun for me. All of this 'fun' is aimed at increasing my opportunities to shoot and to make good on shots I take.
On average I'm sure I shoot every day, sometimes several times per day. I hope to hunt one more time before my season closes on Monday. So far this season I've missed one shot (14 yards) and killed one at 8 yards.
Yep, yardage matters to me - is the shot under 20 yards or not? I thought I was an instinctive shooter in the early 1970's. I wasn't and I'm still not. So knowing the distance is part of my shooting equation.
By the way, I have no idea why 20 yards has been an important distance for so many bowhunters over the years. It was when I was 16 and still is at 57.
The average kill-shot for a recurve/LB has been about 14 yards (state surveys) for more than 40 years. The average for compound shooters is only 3 yards further. FYI, in IN and MO (only surveys I know about) the average rifle kill is only 37 yards. It is tough to get a longer clear shot in eastern forests.