Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: grump on January 01, 2012, 02:54:00 PM
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Just got a used HH Big Five 53#@28.5.
I'm used to recurve (Bear Grizzly) and don't know how to cut back on the hand shock of the HH. Does brace or string or arrow choice have much affect on the hand shock. The HH is great and I like it's accuracy but shooting it I brace myself as though I was going to touch an electric fence. Don't know anything about the HH, my wife got in the summer at a yard sale and kept it from me till xmas. Is there a way to lessen the shock or do I have to grin and bear it?
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Many will find that a low wrist will help with perceived hand shock. If you are using a straight wrist (high grip) lower the base of your thumb down onto the grip on your Hill. You hand will be something like it looks when you are doing a standard push up. There is a thread over on the Shooter's forum called "Grip Question" where I posted some pictures of what I'm talking about. See if that helps with how the bow feels.
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How heavy is your arrow? Recommended brace height for a Hill is 6.5 inchs.
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1. Heel down if you try and hold it like a recurve it can and will bite you
2. Shoot 10 gpp of arrow weight or more.
3. Brace height should be between 6 and 6.75 IMHO
With 1&3 I can shoot 8.5 gpp fine but 10 plus is smooth.
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Loosen your grip and just allow the back tension from drawing the string to hold the bow in your hand. Dont "grip" the bow until after the release. Theres a trick to it. Takes practice. Also put a little bend in your elbow and rotate your hand so the bow sits more towards your thumb and less so in the palm.
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Originally posted by grump:
Just got a used HH Big Five 53#@28.5.
I'm used to recurve (Bear Grizzly) and don't know how to cut back on the hand shock of the HH. Does brace or string or arrow choice have much affect on the hand shock. The HH is great and I like it's accuracy but shooting it I brace myself as though I was going to touch an electric fence. Don't know anything about the HH, my wife got in the summer at a yard sale and kept it from me till xmas. Is there a way to lessen the shock or do I have to grin and bear it?
Good advise so far....Funny, that was my first and one of my most memorable unpleasant experiences. Fortunately, I now shoot the hills and don't feel the pain....could be many reasons for your dilemma.
I grabbed a bow that had tiller problems coupled with my ignorance in matching arrows to the "stump" I was determined to master. Could be you are shooting arrows that are too light?? As already mentioned, grip is also a contributor but I don't think that alone would cause such an unpleasant experience but I cannot see how you grip your bow.
No doubt there is hope...I absolutely love shootin those sticks now...Don't lose hope - there are good answers to your questions here...
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I guess I got lucky. From the first Hill bow I shot I didn't notice the hand shock , and I was shooting arrows that were 9gpp. Maybe it was that the grip, which was a cross between locator and dished, put my hand in the right position? Good luck.
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The key is in your shooting form/grip not in changing the string. Straight end longbows like heavy hunting weight arrows.
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Originally posted by bucksbuouy:
Loosen your grip and just allow the back tension from drawing the string to hold the bow in your hand. Dont "grip" the bow until after the release. Theres a trick to it. Takes practice. Also put a little bend in your elbow and rotate your hand so the bow sits more towards your thumb and less so in the palm.
Not that Bucksbuouy isn't correct but there is another "camp of thought".
This is paraphrase from what Leo Markert instructed me to do......
Grab that bow in a death grip, keep your arm bent (like Howard Hill), continue the death grip thru your enitre arm, up to your shoulder. In other words, be strong with it and you can reduce hand shock.
I have a D shaped bow that will knock your teeth out, unless you hold her just right. If you do it right, its all good.
POINT: we are all different. Figure out what works for you!
Matt
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I tend to agree with the above. But more than anything I feel you MUST heel the bow with your hand. A recurve type of grip changes the dynamic fulcrum of the bow and throws the tiller off on a hill style longbow. Fred Asbell demonstrates this VERY graphically in his "Instinctive Shooting" video. Once you see it demonstrated the light will go off and you'll understand.
I shoot a 70# style hill bow and if you hold it wrong (high grip) it most certainly will create a lot of hand shock. With a low grip its a piece of cake. By changing my grip by just two inches I'm shifting the fulcrum of the bow and the limbs work together and stay in tiller.
Also, as mentioned, heavy arrows help.
But a low grip is a must on a flatbow. On some of the reflex/deflex designs you can get away with a high grip. Not the case with a Hill bow.
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When you grab the handle, squeeze the grip with your pinky finger then the ring finger and lastly your middle finger. Your index and thumb don't need as much pressure. When you hold it this way it gets the bottom limb working as it should and the rear of the grip on the belly side should put the pressure in the meaty part of your palm under your thumb. When your drawing keep your elbow bent but still pushing the bow towards your mark.
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Your bow has forgotten it's training, send it to me and I'll re-train it for you and send it back to once I am 100 percent sure it's ok.......lol
You already have some of the best advice you could get.
Please keep us posted on how you are getting along with it.
Happy New Year!
God bless,Mudd
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Never try to shoot a Hill like it is a recurve. When I shoot a recurve it fights me when I try to them Hill style, the inverse is true when trying to have a longer than natural recurve draw with a longbow. If all else fails put a padded fast flight on it, but first try to emulate everything that Hill does with his bow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqjNKC72dA&feature=related
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I'm with Raging Water, Howard Hill and John Schulz on this issue. You have to grab onto it. I don't mean to be contrary (though my wife would disagree here), but holding a Hill style bow with a loose grip will most certainly thump you pretty good. That's been my experience anyway. I also agree that you must use a low wrist grip to reduce shock. Howard Hill told John Schulz to "...grab hold of it." Howard knew a thing or two about straight limb bows.
Other things that you can try to reduce the bite a bit include heavy arrows (as others have said, and don't be afraid to go to 12 grains per pound of draw weight. These bows aren't necessarily rocket launchers, but heavy arrows don't seem to noticeably hurt performance at normal hunting range. Another thing that can help is using a skinny, low stretch string. Just make sure you pad the loops well. I like 18 strands in the loops (10 of D97 and 8 of B50 works well). You may be pleasantly surprised the difference a new string can make, especially if the old one is a heavy old dacron string.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the size/fit of the grip. If the grip is too big or too small, it will be difficult to grip the bow in a way that will be comfortable to shoot. I have short fingers, even though my palms are fairly wide (think medium glove fingers with a large glove palm...no I can't find gloves that fit for squat).
I recently acquired a Northern Mist Shelton (see my signature for specs). The grip was not over large, but just enough to give me less than optimum grip. So I removed the leather grip wrap and put a thinner one on. It helped but not enough. So that wrap came off, and I moved to the drum sander. I wanted to keep the grip as close to straight as possible, so I only removed about 1/8" of material, making a VERY slight locator grip. So slight, it is difficult to notice. I refinished the area and replaced the grip...again. That 1/8" made a huge difference in the feel, shock, and my accuracy. I didn't make the bow more accurate; it was already more accurate than me, but I made it shoot more accurately with me holding it.
That's kind of a long way of saying, no, you don't have to just grin and bear it.
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grab more with the middle, ring and pinky fingers. Like Matt said some Hills like the Death Grip
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Personally I feel a locator grip on a Hill bow will help more than a straight grip. I have a Hill Sirocco and I find the bow a please to shoot. I do use wood arrows but I don't heel the bow. I would think the more tension in your bow arm would contribute to the feel of the bow.
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i do the opposite of conventional wisdom - allow only the web and thumb meat of the bow hand to make contact, do NOT grip the bow, allow your bow hand pointer finger and thumb to touch and hold the bow lightly, your middle, ring and pinky fingers lightly *touch* the bow handle back. you will hardly feel any "shock", even with the worst mule kickin' stick bow. been shooting hill style longbows this way since the 60's, and it works for me (and others), might work for you, too.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hand1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hand2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hand3.jpg)
while yer at it, angle the bow hand slightly - you will never need to wear an armguard.
minimal string clearance ............................................................... lots of string clearance
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/gr1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/gr2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/rob4-1.jpg)
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With all due respect to the opinions offered about gripping a Hill lightly, Pavan's video above (thanks Pavan, those are literally great shots :) ) shows how to hold the bow the way Hill thought best...FIRMLY, and with some degree of heel-down. He definately did NOT hold the bow 'lightly' or loosely and he definately DID 'grip' the bow such that he had decent control of it...the bow doesn't just sit in the hand by only string tension, you need to wrap your fingers around the riser and hold the darned thing! That said, each shooter is obviously different so some experimentation is best to see what level and angle of grip works for you and what fits your hand, arm and bone structure best.
All in all, if there's one thing that effects how well a Hill will appeal (or not) it'll be how you hold it. It's a learning experience. If in the end you decide you don't like it then I'll be more than glad to take it off your hands (really...). :D Great bows.
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Good advice in this thread. To the OP - I had the same problem when I switched from a recurve to a Hill but once knowledgeable TradGangers got me (and my grip) straightened out, all has been well.
Keep at it - it gets better! :D
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Shoot a heavy arrow, they like heavy arrows.
And learn how to grip it just so, whatever method that gives you the least pain.
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Brace height 6.5,10grns per# my Wesley is dead in the hand and quiet as a mouse.D97 by Oliverstacy Im Out..
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Congratulations on one of the finest lb's made! I'm w/Matt on this one in that a tighter grip works for me (35 years). Shot through a severe wincing shoulder injury (non archery related) last year. This will teach how NOT to hold the bow. Immediate feedback! My grip is firm w/all fingers plus maintain your pose until the arrow reaches the target. HS is not an issue holding the bow correctly IMHO.
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Low wrist with even palm pressure against the whole handle with a firm grip works best for me to minimize, but not eliminate, the "thump" from a Hill LB. In my experience, LBs have more handshock than recurves, but not all are unpleasant.
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30coupe - "using a skinny, low stretch string. Just make sure you pad the loops well. I like 18 strands in the loops (10 of D97 and 8 of B50 works well)"
I understand your 18 strands for padding, but then how many strands of low stretch do you use for your skinny string?
Thanx,
Gary
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Originally posted by Zbone:
30coupe - "using a skinny, low stretch string. Just make sure you pad the loops well. I like 18 strands in the loops (10 of D97 and 8 of B50 works well)"
I understand your 18 strands for padding, but then how many strands of low stretch do you use for your skinny string?
Thanx,
Gary
I know guys go less, but I usually use 10 strands. I have gone as low as eight, but they seem to have more creep and don't necessarily gain a big performance edge over 10.
All the extra strands in the loops are B50, so the 10 strands from the main string and eight short strands of B50 for padding. I have also used D97 for padding but found no advantage, and I feel better cutting cheap B50 into little short chunks. :rolleyes:
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I don't worry about hand shock until it pops the lid off my chew can or knocks the change out of my pockets. On one of my bows, a recurve, I held the bow much like Rob demonstrates so I could clear my coat and not bother with the arm guard, but I found that after a long practice session, my thumb felt like it was sprained. This past September I tried it with a lighter left hand recurve, I had a ruptured disc and cracked ribs, and the bow, as my chiropractor called it, bruised a nerve in my thumb joint, so I changed the grip to get a bit more of my hand onto the bow. I must add that I have had a line of work that did not do my hands any favors over the years. Planting a longbow so that it contacts bone lower than my thumb is a lot better for my thumbs and with my longbows keeping the joints bent and not topping out or forced straight gets me the least amount of shock, although I am not really try to squeeze blood out of the handle either, tight enough so that it does not move in my hand on release.
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The harder a bow kicks the harder I choke it till I win.
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Originally posted by JamesV:
The harder a bow kicks the harder I choke it till I win.
:laughing:
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^ like Rob said
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Thanx 30coupe
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Well, guys, I learned something today. When I got my Shelton, it came with a string, so I just strung it up and started to shoot. It braced at about 7", so I figured that was where it needed to be. I worked on grip, swing draw, etc. It shot great, but there was some hand shock, especially noticeable after shooting my Kanati.
I made a skinny string, thinking that would help like it did with my Mahaska. It helped, but not quite as much as I had hoped. I was stumped! I had the string braced at about 7" or just under, like the one that came with the bow. Then I read a post by mikebiz in the HH thread about bracing his Hill bows between 5.25 and 6" so the arrow had more string time and hence more cast.
I thought it couldn't hurt, so I started to unwind my string and shoot. At 6.25" hand shock was noticeably less. At 6" it was essentially gone! I'm now at 5.75" brace height. I have no noticeable hand shock, the bow is still quiet as a mouse fart, and I may have picked up a bit of speed as a bonus!
Ain't life grand!