Trad Gang

I was visiting the local archery shop today to drop off a Bear skull and a Bobcat skull from animals I have taken in the past, as additions to a dislapy they have containg a Cougar, Elk and couple Black Tailed Deer Skulls..

An older fellow comes in who seems very new to trad, but is anxiously looking for suitable arrows for a new 50# Bamboo backed Osage Long Bow, he has just recieved.  He approaches the owner for advise...

He's really looking for "woodiies".  However, being a c-bow  oriented shop [that has recently entered into the budding x-bow sales in our  state] they have none in stock nor any others that are fletched with feathers...

He is immediately told 500 crabons won't work... as they will too light...   :knothead:   He is then told that 2219's cut to 31" for his 29" draw will be just the ticket [ they happen to have that size in stock] when tipped with 125 gn field tips.   :rolleyes:  

At this point, being the guy I am   :dunno:   I have to ask... "How far is that bow center cut "too" or "past" center?"  

He never answers, and the owner does not pick up on what I have just asked.     . At that point, the deal goes on, to the point of 12 new camo 2219's with basic 3 5" feathers to the tune of $100 ordered.

Finally, I get the guy off to the side and find out what type of bow he has. At this point he says "Do you think they will be too stiff?"  I shake my head yes, and give him my phone number and the suggestion he give me a call and possibly meet up with a few of the guys here, or who belong to Traditional Bowhunters of WA..

Sad  part was, I have about 2 dozen 2219's with brand new fletch and long enough for him which I don't even shoot out of center cut 58# bows.

I would have given him a few of these [if he chose to want to keep and shoot them], and the use of my indoor shooting range, and supplied various 300-400- and 500 series carbons for him to try before laying down that $$$.

However not wanting to up-set the store owner, him loosing the income, and me loosing his friendship,  I just bit my tounge thru all of or most of this...

Guy's if your new to this sport... DO NOT BE AFRAID TO ASK some questions before laying out that hard earned cash...

There are several guys and gals here, and possibly shooting trad. bows at the shops with ranges you frequent, many with years of experience... Take advantage of their knowledge... I and I'm sure most others who are passionate about this sport are also more than willing to help you out.

I'm carring my cell phone ..but still no call from him.. I'm not sure what more I could have said or offered in that situation?

Gene

I probably would have spoke up and suggested he shoot that arrow setup before buying. I wouldn't consider someone who sells something to someone they can't use a friend. JMHO


Rob

That kind 'a thing happens every day....it's to bad but what can you do. Just think about the ones you don't see.......

Most archery shops I have been to as a customer, even the older shops who were around before "modern" equipment arrived on the scene, possess very little knowledge when it comes to traditional bows. There are obviously exceptions to this rule, but those shops focus on compound shooters and all their various bells and whistles. Will the guys at the archery shop try to help you if you ask them for arrows? Sure. However, the advice they give (however well intentioned) is likely ill-informed. I certainly appreciate the desire to patronize local archery dealers. You are almost always better off posting a question on this or one of the other traditional archery forums and seeing whether that advice reaches some sort of consensus. You will at least learn something along the way and will be better equipped to ask your local dealer the right questions or simply have them order what you want.

Makes me appreciate my bow shop (the only trad bow shop left in the area). When I went in looking for arrows, we went through half a dozen different bare shafts until one flew pretty decent. I bought a dozen had them fletched, but left full length to do some tuning/learning. My kind of shop!

You have done what you could and I hope to run into someone like you if I am clueless on a subject.  Tough spot you were in.

I think I would have to say something. It would be better for your friend to have a repeat customer then one who ends up pissed.

you did good "carroll" i would have totaly done the same!

Tough situation... but then your friend (the shop owner), knowing traditional bows is a speciality of yours, and saying so to the customer, could have amicably included you in the conversation to get your thoughts on the matter.  

No shame in that... but then, maybe less profit.

That stinks,and he should call you if he was smart.
 I think it was P.T.Barnum that said "theres a sucker born every minute"

That's a pretty common scenario, unfortunately.  I've heard some pretty horrendous suggestions coming out of archery proshops.  Some of the worst offenders around here are the shops that have a smattering of traditional stuff. They basically recommend what would work out of a similar weighted mildly cammed compound. I've seen them put guys in an arrow that has over twice the spine they need and less than 7 grains per pound in weight.

I understand being ignorant of any given subject, but to be ignorant of the needs of a segment of your customers is frustrating to say the least. Even a few hours of study could get them relatively up to speed.

I had the same thing happen in a Cabelas- sales guy pushing Rage BH's to a new compound shooter like that was his only option.

Then I got some bad advice at Home Cheapo regarding some products for an Ipe sign [I double checked with mfr].Plenty of bad advice on the internet too...its everywhere really.

The way I see it; 1.A guy has to be an educated consumer, 2. and develop a strategy for determining WHO to get your advice from. Plenty of guys who  "Learned from a guy who learned from another guy"....and none have ever really learned the correct technique....but don't take that from me! Grin

I believe I would have said something. The closest trad archery shop to me is in Little Rock, Ar. The man who owns it and does most of the work in it is a traditional shooter.

Happened to me when i first got started, but there wasn't anyone there to save me.

Stupid is as stupid does!  Is this the local shop that I visit? I have helped a few folks in front of the owner.  While not amused he let me guide them in the right direction.   Pro shops are normally so far off on arrows that I cringe when I hear shooters asking for them.

I think I would have tried to save the new guy from wasting the $100 and hopefully also him getting a bad start into Trad archery  with gear that would not work for him ...    :dunno:

Gene, Don't think there is much more you could do. I believe I've been in that store in Vancouver, nice folks but only the big guy, not owner seems familar with trad gear.

I would expect good advice from a pro shop.  I think you did well, especially taking him aside.  I have been at this long enough to have started asking questions out loud and boxing things into a corner.  That quickly establishes that the pro really doesn't know.

I would also have expected my friends to be real people, and give good advice, including "I don't know" if appropriate, and not be pro shop wizards that have little experience but know it all.  I have seen enough of that in my life.
ChuckC

You said he ordered the arrows that the shop suggested.
Expect his call after the arrows are taken home, and he shoots them long enough to realize something isn't right. If he doesn't just give up, at that point he will be ready to pay attention to you. Until then, you have done all you can.

I'm one of those guys that wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut. Politely, I would have injected myself into the conversation to save this guy some grief and wasted $$$

Need to put this on the quote thread, "You can't fix stupid!" Good on your offer L.E. When he comes around you just may have made a good friend.

Gene,
You may have done the right thing, but the shop would have made the same amount of money selling him the right shafts for the bow. Sounds to me like your friend just didn't want to be bothered with doing what I'm sure he knew was needed to sell this man the proper equipment.

I've seen way to much of this going on in shops that cater primarily to cable guns. And to be honest, I no longer stand by and let it happen. If nothing else I will at least offer a trad shooter advise on how to properly go about selecting shafts. And I'll do it in front of the salesman.
Even my 16 year old grandson knows it isn't right, he actually gives my cell phone number to people he doesn't know if he hears them getting bad info in a shop. He doesn't hesitate to jump in and tell the salesman he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Gene, I'm surprised that your friend the shop owner didn't ask you to assist him in helping the guy out.

At the pro-shop where I frequent, the owner and I are acquainted enough to have respect for each others' knowledge... his compound bow knowledge and my standard bow knowledge. For kids and newcomers to traditional archery, he always gives me the nod in providing them with guidance.

He knows what good business means, and that is to be honest and helpful to his customers. Whether that help comes from him or me is of no consequence to him. He understands that his customers' satisfaction is the key to returning (and spending) customers.

I hope that fella calls you for some assistance. One of the biggest frustrations for new shooters... are the arrows/tuning!

- Dave

Gene I know it's hard to listen to wrong advice ,, I too keep my my opinions to my self , If your in someones else business and you speak up you could look like a know it all, however if the imformation is plain wrong ,, let them know that you have been there done that, and that there are better options that would work better , I bet everyone involed would thank you !! your right it's a hard thing to listen to !!  :dunno:

That's a tough spot Gene. Good on you for the effort. You know the old saying... "You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

Lanier

Clay and Stujay....

That's the shop... Unfortunately, Dana "the big guy" was busy at that time "hooking": another customer up with the "newest and greatest" all new Carbon, Hoyt Garage door opener.   :knothead:  

Please guys.... Kind of keep this on "the sly". As I still want to be "welcome" there in the future..    :bigsmyl:  

Had Dana not been busy, I'm sure the outcome would have been much better....

BTW, Dana is setting up a Monday night "Traditional Bowhunter League" scheduled to start on Jan 9th.... I'm looking forward to joining in.  If, they will still let me in and the swelling in my right elbow goes down by then.   :wavey:

Gene, used to live in the Ridgefield area, and that would have been slick to get together, but now live farther north outside Chehalis so a bit far to join the league. But if I get a chance I'll stop by a say hello.    Stuart

Your story reminds me of my return to trad in 89 and my first arrow purchase. I bought my first recurve, referred to the Easton arrow chart and bought the recommended 2219 shafts for my 50#@26" bow. Of course they came out of the bow sideways. It took me a long time to find anyone who would take these tree trunks off my hands for free.

I will always speak up when I see someone being steered in the wrong direction on traditional choices. If questioned by the person with the bad information I will say" I have made 138 longbows, won the state selfbow championship twice, helped run a city owned, public indoor range for 15 years and spent Tuesday and Thursday evenings at the range tuning bows and bare shafting arrows for people free of charge", end of discussion.

One local pro shop has my phone number and has guys with trad questions give me a call.

Your phone will probaly be ringing when he gets those arrows in and sees they dont shoot.lol

Well, those guys usually don't know beans about trad bows.  They probably do pretty good with their compound and x-bow setups though.

I went into a Bass-Pro shop in the Louisville area and they even had a few Bear bows for sale there, but after talking with their "technicians" for a couple of minutes it was obvious they knew very little about trad bowhunting.  

Sure is hard to stay silent when someone is being led astray isn't it?

You might meet the guy again when he puts that 'poor shooting' bamboo/osage up for sale in craigslist.

Gene,  Tricia, Morgan, and I will be at the league shoots.   I was in the shop shooting today and helped a new shooter get the right arrows.   I gave him three of mine to take home since they had to make his up.   The shop had him two full spine groups to heavy in carbons.  I worked with a couple of recurve shooters who's brace height was at 5.5 inches.  They were sold strings that were to long.   I twisted their strings up as tight as I could and got them to 7 inches.  I am meeting one of them to give them strings I made them that are the proper length.  I will keep your secret.  I always try to keep an eye out for trad shooters when the big guy who knows trad isn't in the shop.

Thanks Clay  ;)  I'll be looking forward to shooting with you and the girls...

Thanks' also, for helping out the guys you mentioned..   :clapper:    :clapper:  

Gene

The sad part of this is there are so many people who are new to the sport and feel that anyone who owns a sport shop is a expert. While most who own/work at sport shops are in the know about what is the latest rage, most steer folks in the wrong direction just trying to get a sale of some sort. I have seen this first hand with archery,fly fishing and muzzleloading to name a few.

Gene,
For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing.  I was once in a similar situation. I let the customer know that I thought I could save him some heartache and money, and suggested an alternative.  He looked at me like I had two heads. After all, who was I to dispute the 'Pro Shop's' advice.
Some people have to learn the hard way.

As someone who shoots all forms trad bows fishes bamboo rods and shoots flintlock pistols and longguns I have found that you better know your stuff when dealing any non specialty sporting goods stores and sales people they just don't know the technology and generally can only give rudimentary or bad advice, so don't be shy help a new guy out and maybe keep the shop guy from looking foolish as well

once went to a sporting goods store that had sights mounted on the wrong side of their compound bow risers....yeah I told them...had second thoughts about it though

Your a good guy Gene!!! Happy new year

Gene - I'll be at the Monday night league also, hopefully with my son. Hoping for a good turn out. See you guys there!