A longbow with no handshock [in hunting weights]- is there such a thing? I see comments stating this 'no shock' but is that a qualified statement?
What are the factors that make it so? The handle mass of the recurves I have tried and the geometry/design must be a huge factor in decreasing handshock. With the relative lighter/lesser mass of the longbow handles, seems like reducing handshock would be difficult.
Or am I stating this incorrectly; I'm talking about that feeling when the bow wants to jump out of your hand.
Fairly new to the sport and a lefty. I will eventually try every longbow I can get my hands on but so far that has been tough...like in one.
I believe when it comes down to actuality. . . no bow is without shock. A better description may be "not much hand shock", or, "I can still feel my arm after ten shots", or simlar.
ChuckC
My #55 Savannah longbow with an SBD string is absolutely dead in the hand. I attribute it to tuning (arrow and bow), string choice, and good design.
The tern you are looking for and have heard is "Dead in the hand"
Building a bow with no hand shock requires a good limb balance and timing of the limbs to stop at the same time. The pre load at brace height, or string tension is what determines if the limbs stop dead and transfer the energy to the shaft instead of back into the riser. In some cases when the mass of the outer limb is too much for the limbs to stop dead it gives that kick you are referring to even if the limbs are timed correctly and the tiller is adjusted to the pressure point on the grip.
If a bow is fairly well balanced the archer can usually tune the bow by using different brace heights and slight grip pressure adjustments to find the sweet spot.
The mass weight of the riser has very little to do with hand shock if the bow is designed and balanced correctly. If a bow needs more mass in the riser to absorb hand shock, there is something wrong with the way it's limbs are balanced or timed, or both. IMO
If you have never experienced a "Dead in the hand" bow I'd be glad to build you one with a guarantee.
I looooooooooked a long time to find a longbow without "hand shock".
Being a lefty like you our choices are some what limited on test bows.
After years of looking I found one that's perfect for me.
I suggest you talk to Allen Boice at Liberty Longbows. NO hand shock what-so-ever!
Bob
I do not have any experience with D style longbows but any deflex reflex longbow made by a reputable bowyer will have basically no handshock at all with a proper weight arrow.
There are several out there that would qualify. Don't take our word for it though. Try them and see. You have a fine bowyer up above that just offered to build you one with a guarantee. :wavey:
Good luck in your search!
I've never seen a bowyer offer that guarantee.
Until a bow is designed that is 100% efficient, there will be handshock. As Kirk stated, it can be reduced to the point, through tuning, arrow selection and proper design, that it is not readily felt. That is where the "dead in the hand" statement comes from. Most R/D bows have very little. Most "D" bows will have more. Just the way it is.
A well made reflex/deflex longbow, shooting arrows that weigh 10 grains per # of bow weight, should not have any noticeable handshock, no more than a recurve. Straight limbed longbows have a tad more, but even then, if properly built (tillered) and heavy arrows its should not rattle you.
reminds me of the statement for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...most of the energy is absorbed by the arrow ; some by the string and limbs and "some" by your hand...granted some bows absorb it somewhat better than others...just sayin
Kirk makes a sweet bow and they shoot dead in the hand. Wes Wallace also makes a R/D longbow that is dead in the hand. Adding an 8 strand FF string and 10.5 gpp arrows ensures I feel no hand shock. If you shot 8 gpp or less arrows I bet there would be some noticeable hand shock for both bows. Though it would be very minor.
3 piece Bob Lee takedown longbow
QuoteOriginally posted by beendare:
A longbow with no handshock [in hunting weights]- is there such a thing?
What you'd be looking for is a Thunderstick. Absolutely dead in the hand. Best ang for the buck out there IMO.
EVERY bow has handshock, longbow or recurve. You can absolutely reduce handshock with the right design, tuning and timing of the limbs.
Saying a bow has no hand shock is like saying an arrow shoots flat. Ain't so, never will be.
The least shocky bows I have shot are high end recurves and hybrid longbows (extreme R/D).
To me?.."Well Designed" is about 1/2 of it..the other 2/4ths?..is "Tuning" and "Form & Release"..and when all 4/4ths come together?..my Bob Lee TD Hunter Recurve and My Bushmen "American Native" hybrid longbow are about as shock free as it gets..which is very dead in the hand..especially my Bob lee but cause it's weighs 2-3X's what my longbow does.
But there's a reason why when it comes to the old school broom handle D Longbows that the old clich'e applied..
"Grip It & Rip It"
and you bess "Grip" it. LOL!
I swear, I don't feel ANY hand shock whatsoever with my Kanati LB. None. Nada. Nil. Zilch. And, believe me, I know what hand shock is. I have an osage bow(over built) I made several years ago that will flat rattle your teeth!
Granted, I am shooting fairly heavy arrows weighing in at 11.3 grains per pound of draw weight with the Kanati. But still, it is absolutely dead in the hand with my setup. It is definitely a real pleasure to shoot.
My Kanati may have some, but I don't feel it. And believe me, my left elbow will tell on any bow that isn't timed correctly. That's why I tiller by shooting and adjusting as needed when finishing a bow blank, or refinishing a bow that has some rattle.
This is one area where r/d bows have it all over the straight end bows, imo.
A 51 pound zipper sxt longbow, has no hand shock that I can tell.
Now I have shot a few bows that other said had VERY BAD SHOCK, Now with that said, I have shot the same bows and didn't few a thing.
Hill bows have been said to knock teeth out of the shooters mouth. Never had that feeling what so ever. It all comes down to how you hold the bow.
I owned a shrew bow with no pinch or staking and no shock. I Now own a Jerry Hill Stalker Deluxe and the same is true with it.. No shock when I shoot it..
So to answer Your question... YES there is hand shock free Long Bows..
A few that come to mind for me that have no felt hand shock are the Firefly and Hummingbird take down longbows .
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Mass can dampen the feel of this. But everything that throws or pushes something is automatically shoved right back. Longbows: If folks could handle them for countless millennia, so can we.
Arrow weight cures most. Energy has to go some where, best if it goes in the arrow.
Tune, grip and arrow weight aside, there are some hybrid bows that are very mild in the hand. ACS and Hill Country Wildcat are the two stand outs for me for the 3 pc, and both I have are not heavy mass weight bows. Kanati is about as dead in the hand as I have shot for a 1 pc hybrid. For a D shape I would say 2 tracks long walker is the best I have shot.
Had a couple top name bows that had too much handshock for me, got rid of them. Have shot Zipper STX, Hummingbird,and Silvertip 3 piece longbows and Hummingbird one piece longbows that had almost no reaction to the arrow being released. I usually shoot Dymond wood or Cocobolo risers so that helps some too.
Short answer, shoot ten top longbows you will find several that have almost no handshock. Roy
If you have arthritis in the thumb of your bow hand like I do, you will come to the realization that ALL bows have some hand shock just some more than others ... I have shot lots and lots of different bows LB and recurve and I have never had one not be felt in some fashion by my arthritic thumb.
I have shot some d/r longbows that basically had little to no handshock, my own Whips by Dan Toelke have absolutely none to me with arrows running from 10 to 13 to 1 grains of arrow per pound of draw weight. I have shot a couple of d/r longbows and a number of D shaped longbows that would rattle your teeth! My own Toelke Super Ds with the same weight arrows as my Whips have so little handshock that it is more like a pulsation than a thump. In fairness my own bows have been set up by me for me, the other bows mentioned were not of course.
Skinny, low stretch strings will help on the D profile bows, but you will still feel a bit of a thump. My Shelton has very mild hand shock with 9-10 grains per pound arrows. If I get some heavy ones made up, I'm sure it will be even less.
My Kanati has NO noticeable hand shock, but to be honest, it is a hybrid, definitely not a D profile. I think Jason gets rid of the shock by making extremely efficient bows. I have had mine since 2007 and I am still amazed at the speed even with heavy (11-12 gpp) arrows. Oh, and Kanatis are also very light weight, so you don't have to have a hefty bow to have minimal hand shock.
If you want to shoot a Hill style longbow, you will need to get used to at least some shock. The string follow bows like my Shelton tend to have less than straight or back set bows. It is certainly not uncomfortable to shoot.
Tomahawk SS! smooth and dead in the hand. Kirk makes a great bow as well as do many others like A&H, Black Widow, and on and on... Just try as many as you can and see which one you like best.
here is another question concerning hand shock...do you feel more hand shock with your arm fully extended and locked out ; or less hand shock with a slight bend...for me I experience less with a slight bend at the elbow...I "think" the slight bend acts somewhat like a shock absorber...anyone care to chime in ?...thanks
Hand shock is a relative thing. I am with those that say all bows have "some" hand shock. If you think your bow does not have any, shoot it with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot. Better have a soft place out in front for it to land though ;) .
Yep, "Dead in the hand" was the term I was looking for and the one longbow I tried felt like a coiled spring in my hand on release. The whole 'Physics' of this is interesting. I knew there had to be more to it with so many guys loving their longbows.
Thanks Kirk for the long explanation and to all for the informative comments. I'm going to wait until I develop better form and get up to my shooting weight before I start collecting more bows. [Actually, the truth; I told myself no new bows until I kill something with this first one]
I would think that less shock not only makes a bow more fun to shoot but more accurate with less tendency to develop bad habits- flinching, gripping etc.
Some bows flex all the way into the handle too, that has to create more shock on release. And I would think the straight handle bows have more shock. vs. ones with more > forward. Kudos to the bowyers that have it figured out!
I purchased a terrestrial long bow on here from GreyBeard,I couldn't be happier with a purchase it was made by a tradganger r/d style longbow 60 inch 53@28 feels like 48,smoothest drawing bow I have ever owened no hand shock and a Joy to shoot.
End your search with 3 words.....Big River Longbows.......
I like St. Joe longbows, very quiet and stable. :)
Maybe I'm just still numb from my partying college days, but I don't notice handshock in longbows - even straight limbed Hill styles.
I ordered a Dwyer Original Longbow today just so i could say i have a Hill bow. Just kidding, the first bow i ever owned was a Dwyer Original Lonbow and i ordered a 56 pounder.
Well i have a 30in draw so you can imagine my suprise when i tried to draw and shoot that monster but man was it fast. I can't remember much handshock but it did have some but i was new and overbowed.
The one i ordered has a beavertail grip and they stain there woods to give them a darker rich look and i think it was $420 something delivered.
I know there is a great mystique surrounding HH bows but for the money and looks i'll take that Dwyer anytime.
Joe Van
I have a Leon Stewart Slammer and I cannot feel any hand shock at all. The riser is quite small and I think Kirkill above does a good job of explaining why riser is not that impt.
My new Kempf 58" longbow has no hand shock and with the TS-1 string I have on it, is deadly quiet.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
Hand shock is a relative thing. I am with those that say all bows have "some" hand shock. If you think your bow does not have any, shoot it with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot. Better have a soft place out in front for it to land though ;) .
That doesn't prove anything. If you shoot your bow with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot, then how is it NOT gonna hit the ground?!? Hand shock or no hand shock it's gonna hit the ground if you don't hold onto it! Never saw a bow that sticks to an open hand, unless it's glued to it.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here. No one is saying a bow doesn't move upon releasing the string and the arrow leaves the bow. Hand shock is an unpleasant "jarring" of the bow hand from the shot. The bow simply moving or vibrating a little isn't hand shock.
Say what you will, but I'm telling ya right now, my Kanati has NO hand shock.
I have shot some 3 pc. longbows that were virtually shock free, with the extra weight in the riser. ACS for sure! But if you want a one piece bow that's as light as a feather and super fast and quiet as a mouse...u need to try a Centaur or a Kanati!
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
Hand shock is a relative thing. I am with those that say all bows have "some" hand shock. If you think your bow does not have any, shoot it with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot. Better have a soft place out in front for it to land though [Wink] .
QuoteThat doesn't prove anything. If you shoot your bow with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot, then how is it NOT gonna hit the ground?!? Hand shock or no hand shock it's gonna hit the ground if you don't hold onto it! Never saw a bow that sticks to an open hand, unless it's glued to it.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here. No one is saying a bow doesn't move upon releasing the string and the arrow leaves the bow. Hand shock is an unpleasant "jarring" of the bow hand from the shot. The bow simply moving or vibrating a little isn't hand shock.
Say what you will, but I'm telling ya right now, my Kanati has NO hand shock.
Sorry that you took my post personal Douglas. I did put a wink at the end. When I said SOME, I meant some as in very little. If your bow has absolutely no hand shock at all, I will take your word for it. Peace.
I've got Jack Harrison's longbows. One of the reason I do is that HH style and many other longbows were almost unbearable to shoot. I have terrible shoulders (4 surgeries) and Jack's are pain free.
QuoteOriginally posted by Smithhammer:
My #55 Savannah longbow with an SBD string is absolutely dead in the hand. I attribute it to tuning (arrow and bow), string choice, and good design.
I have a 45# Martin Savannah (x-mas gift) and my initial experience with it is the same as above. I don't have a lot of experience with other bows and I don't believe I ever will after shooting this one...super smooth shooting bow. (I am shooting a Dacron 12 strand string with muskrat silencers and arrows that are close to what I need. I will let you know if this changes with tuned arrows once I get this thing fully tuned)
A string follow longbow, will have less felt recoil at release than a straight end, and considerably less than one with 1.5 inches of backset. Many R/D Longbows have less than a traditional longbow, unless it is a string follow. Design matters.
Bows with a forward handle, will have less. The best thing is to try one first. Heavy limbs or limbs with denser wood will feel heavy and transmit more vibration, than lighter limbs like Bamboo, Red Elm, or foam.
Large handles sometime pick up more vibration. If you shoot with a rigid style, elbow locked and shoulders aligned with your bow arm, you will feel more.
If your thumb is bothered by the recoil, look for a smaller handle, and then use a light grip, holding the bow with the last two fingers.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
Hand shock is a relative thing. I am with those that say all bows have "some" hand shock. If you think your bow does not have any, shoot it with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot. Better have a soft place out in front for it to land though [Wink] .
QuoteThat doesn't prove anything. If you shoot your bow with an open bow hand and don't grab it at the shot, then how is it NOT gonna hit the ground?!? Hand shock or no hand shock it's gonna hit the ground if you don't hold onto it! Never saw a bow that sticks to an open hand, unless it's glued to it.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here. No one is saying a bow doesn't move upon releasing the string and the arrow leaves the bow. Hand shock is an unpleasant "jarring" of the bow hand from the shot. The bow simply moving or vibrating a little isn't hand shock.
Say what you will, but I'm telling ya right now, my Kanati has NO hand shock.
Sorry that you took my post personal Douglas. I did put a wink at the end. When I said SOME, I meant some as in very little. If your bow has absolutely no hand shock at all, I will take your word for it. Peace. [/b]
Didn't take it personal, Bill. Just wanted to clear things up about what hand shock really is. :)
Yes. It's possible. Light tips and a good tiller.
There's so much personal variation here that, clearly, the answer is not black and white. I've shot some of the "mine has no hand shock" bows that others have listed here and found them to be much more "alive" in the hand than I expected. I can and have shot my Black Widow longbow for hours with nary a whisper of shock, nor hand or elbow discomfort.
I suggest that you hook yourself up with various bows via some loaners, shows (like Kalamazoo), shoots, and test programs to see how they work for you. Bows are like anything else... cars, guitars, recliners, etc.... and all of us choose based on how they fit us and how we fit them.
I dont know if its just me but I dont notice any hand shock in any longbows I have shot. I even had my index finger removed because of an injury.I even have nurve damage and this is the hand I grip the bow with.
Lord willing I am about to adress this problem. I plan on building a high performance string follow three piece takedown this year. It will be a 66 inch model available in either a top mount or belly mount short riser. I have to say that to the best of my knowledge that string follow is where its at if you want a true D longbow that has very little shock. Personally I have never shot a longbow that feels better at the shot than a string follow.
I may eventually build this in a onepiece but at this time I am going to do this (Lord Willing) just because I don't believe anyone else has.
Look for a press release sometime aroung March or even a bit earlier. ( Again , Lord Willing)
God bless you all and have a great New Year, Steve
the two "deadest in the hand" bows I've ever shot were Jim Neaves original double carbon and a turkey creek double carbon. those bows were amazing...no felt shock at all, zip zilch nada. And I'm one of those guys who can "feel" it when others can't.
larry
It isn't the mass weight of the handle (or lack thereof), it's the limb design.
Generally speaking, a straight-limbed bow will have "some" handshock, a mild reflexed limb will have a "little" handshock, a more extremely reflexed limb will have "less than a little" handshock.
Of course, it also depends on the GPP arrow one is shooting. Generally speaking again... the heavier the arrow, the more it absorbs a bow's "excess energy".
It think that in many cases when someone says "the bow really likes heavy arrows".... what they are really saying is that the bow "feels" better if you shoot heavy arrows, lol.
And Larry is correct, the double-carbon Centaurs and Turkey Creeks are among the most "dead-in-hand" longbows you will ever experience. I haven't shot ALL the bows out there, but I think it would be difficult to find a bow with LESS handshock than those two marvels of bow design. But of course, neither of those bows are true d-bows. We call them longbows nowadays, but really they are hybrids.
- Dave
Handshock is very subjective. Of my housefull of heavier straight handled lb's none concern me w/handshock.
Every once in a while I string up my old longbow made in the 70's and remind myself what hand shock realy is :-) Some of my newer bows do have some more noticble than others. I would say my favorate is my St. Joe River longbow. Dead in the hand every time.
Almost all well designed d/r longbows will not have any detectable hand shock these days. I have not shot any d/r longbow that I can feel handshock in and I know what to look for. I have a cheap made imitation of a Hill bow that will rattle your teeth.
Target form amplifies hand shock and a more flexible fluid form nullifies it. I think at times folks make to big a deal out of what they feel. I keep looking for that Hill style bow that shoots itself. I was thinking a while back that my Pete George yew had a bit of a thump to it, just to find that it is about the same as a very fancy recurve. I thought, 'oh my, what a sensitive wimp I've become.'
St. Joe River long bows are very dead in your hand. You would be hard pressed to find a smother shooting bow
It is my go to bow and will go to the grave with me.
Too bad it was left handed. Right Mudd?? :laughing:
The 2 deadest in the hands bows I have ever shot where a 60 inch Northern Mist Baraga drawn to a true 28 inches and Steve Turay said that was the sweet spot with that length and Black Swan Hybrid 1 piece 62 inches long and I have shot alot of bows over the years and can feel like Larry every little bit of it.
The "deadest in the hand" long bow by far that I have ever shot is my Don Dow Stick Bow...It is amazing!!
Deadest in the hand longbows will always be the heavy D and r styles. AH Sasquatch, New Sentman, As you decrease the D and R towards a more D shape you can keep this attribute with judicious designing. However it will not be a true D bow until strung. My New limb design is approching a D when strung with no loss of deadness in hand but I feat I am getting close. The trick to me is to get the perfect bow. In the longbow department that is going to be a D shape when strung but have the speed and shootability of the D and R.
I know someone that is getting verry verry close to that but its a secret. In fact they may have gone and done it.
God bless you all, Steve
Grains-per-pound makes a big difference. I try to never shoot less than 10 gpp if at all possible.