OK I've been bitten by the Hill bug and the Hill Thread is not helping at all. I sold my Mathews and looking to get my 1st longbow. I've read "Hunting the hard way" and really love all the Hill bow pics posted here. My questions are what should I look for in a new longbow especially a Hill bow? I shoot a 50# recurve but heard the longer longbows I can shoot higher poundage easier and thinking about 55 or 60#. Also any links or books to read up on hill bow shooting technique would be great!
jay
Jay-
If you've been shooting 50#'s comfortably, I would stick with it for your first Hill bow. Later, if you want to move up in poundage, I would consider it then. I do all my hunting and 3-D shooting with a 50# Hill bow.
I shoot 68" bow and my draw is 27 3/4", if your draw is shorter you could go with 66", if your draw is pass 29" go with a 70" bow.
I always go with bamboo limbs because I like the way they preform especially the carmelized bamboo, but it would be your preference if you want something different.
I believe it's in Hunting the Hardway that there's a section that Howard talks about his technique. The best way to describe how to hold the handle is heal down with more pressure coming from the ring finger and little finger as it's wrapped around the grip.
Join us on the Hill thread.
Darren
Pulling a 50# recurve may actually feel easier than a Hill of the same weight because of the design. I wouldn't try heavier unless you were going that way already. Some curves end at 2#/inch and hills are usually about 3 I believe.
My personal opinion is that considering any different "shooting technique" for a Hill style bow is a mistake. The only difference you should notice from your recurve is the grip shape which will require a lower grip involving the heel of your hand more when gripping the bow. I shoot Dan Toelke Super Ds a majority of the time and find something very special about the feel of the D bow at the shot. Mine are 64" bows and they easily accomodate my 29" draw and at 2 or 3 pounds heavier draw weight they will shoot the same speed as my d/r Whips. They are more than any of my bows "even quieter than they are fast".
G F Asbells book(s) have a good longbow section, but there are really quite a few. Hill, Byron ferguson, Schultz, and others teach form.
Listen to the guys above....don't go heavier just yet! Try one at 45-50 and see if it's your cup of tea!! :thumbsup:
if you have no problem with 50# then by all means get your first hill or hill style longbow at that holding weight. these are not r/d longbows and the limb design will be backset, straight or bellyset (string follow).
now here's the real important part - make sure the length of the bow is in proportion to your exact draw length. if you do this correctly, your new 50# classic american flat longbow will not only feel as smooth as yer recurve, it may feel smoother yet. click on the first link in my sig line to read lots more about that ....
Thanks everyone! I have a 26" draw so 64" bow would be plenty for a smooth draw. I'm not too worried about the weight. I have read Asbells section on longbows as well for reference. More curious of the backset like Rob mentioned.
Probably going to wait for a good price on a used one to save $.
Jay,
your sig. line says you have a 45# @28" bow..that would be around 40# at a 26" draw...jumping up to 50# @ 26" would be plenty of 'jump'. Most guys switching from recurve to longbow will shorten their draw a little due to hand position, and that could only be 1/4" or maybe 1 1/2" depending... So I think a 64 - 66" bow would be creamy smooth for you, no matter if it's straight, backset, or string follow.
your hand size is critical for good handle fit...make sure you know the handle length and depth of any bows you are looking at for best fit...i.e. Guys with a palm width under 4" will find a handle of around 4" long to be a good fit.
For a Hill bow with fiberglass, you take 60" and add in the last number of your draw length. So, 60" + 6" for your 26" draw puts you at 66" bow. You "can" pull a 64" "all bamboo," non-glass bow, with a 12" riser, out to 26."
That same length in a glass bow, 64", with a typical 14" riser won't be nearly as smooth out to 26". Can it be done, of course, and with a 50# bow you probably will just pull right through the stack, but for your 26" draw the 66" is the way to go.
with pretty much all stick bows, and Definitely with the hill style afl's, longer is always smoother if not better. :)
I need to update my signature. Last year I put Black Maxx limbs on my GM so I'm pulling 50, 51 lbs at 26 now. Thanks again for the input on length.
Longer will feel better. I'm at 28inch Hills are all 70inch. Smoooooth!
Rob is right on with the longer is usually better view. Also, riser length will play a role. A shorter riser with an even D bend will allow a bit shorter length.
I make mine with 17 or 18 inch risers and either flat or with a slight back set. Even at 66", they will not stack out to 32" of draw. The ones with back set, while slight, is a bit progressive which does not allow the tips to get too whip ended in the bend.
what would be best for a new longbow shooter? dished or locator grip? Of course I will try to shoot some before buying but all the great pics online is killing me LOL
QuoteOriginally posted by Jayb:
what would be best for a new longbow shooter? dished or locator grip? Of course I will try to shoot some before buying but all the great pics online is killing me LOL
only you can tell, not me or those guys over there. ;)
i understand yer enthusiasm, but if you can't try before you buy, yer gambling. and you know what that means ....
Rob's right.....get a bow in your hands. one thing about the Hill bows....in your weight range you can find used ones pretty often, but until you find the right fit, you'll be paying shipping charges.... :)
I know i should try out first and thanks for the advice.
There are LOTS of Hill-style longbow shooters in Tejas JB!
You will have no trouble checking out longbows and various grips if you go to a trad shoot.
It will probably cost you less to drive and check it out than the shipping on a longbow....
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
My first hill bow was ordered for me bybob wesley when I. Attended his school. He determined my draw to be 27 1/2 and he ordered a 70 lnch bow .l don't remember his exact words why. But I think it was çertainly because it would ßhoot the best for me,.bobs bows were as long also and he drew 28 .any loss in speed is trumped by.all the other qualities we shoot hill bows for someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree, Flynn. 70" bows seem to work best for me, too. I only draw about 28.5". After awhile, a 70" bow doesn't seem overly long.
For the standard Hill tillering on the relex models for my 26 plus draw I prefer the 66" length, I would be tempted to say that I would prefer 64" in the string follow from the few shots I have taken with a string follow Hill that was 66" long.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jayb:
what would be best for a new longbow shooter? dished or locator grip? Of course I will try to shoot some before buying but all the great pics online is killing me LOL
aside from bow length and holding weight, there's not much else that's "best" about bows for YOU, least of which is the handle/grip, which is a very personal thing. consider your hand size and how you will hold the bow. if you wish to do the hill-bow-hold-thing with a full hand/palm grip, make sure the handle will accommodate YOUR hand. not much else to say 'cept try before you buy, and even then, over time, you will more than likely make changes to both bow and arrows, let alone form changes. welcome to trad! ;)
For me, I can't have a bow that is really too long. As long as I can get it in the truck - I'll call it good! My Hills are all 70 inches, I draw 28. I've always thought that if folks really had to feed themselves with a bow - there would be more longer bows.
Not to hight jack the thread, but what is the best Hill style bow maker today? Are HH the best?
Some great advice given. Best to have one in your hands, only you can determine what feels right.
For me it was a 70" dished grip, I draw 29".
My first hill bow was ordered for me bybob wesley when I. Attended his school. He determined my draw to be 27 1/2 and he ordered a 70 lnch bow .l don't remember his exact words why. But I think it was çertainly because it would ßhoot the best for me,.bobs bows were as long also and he drew 28 .any loss in speed is trumped by.all the other qualities we shoot hill bows for someone correct me if I'm wrong.
QuoteOriginally posted by David Yukon:
Not to hight jack the thread, but what is the best Hill style bow maker today? Are HH the best?
there is NO "BEST". never has been, never will be. there are oodles of current hill style bowyers and each is capable of creating an extremely good shooting afl (american flat longbow). however, if you want that howard hill name on yer longbow, you'll need to go with a howard hill.
again, none are "BEST". there is no such thing.
Ditto what Rob said--there is no "best". I own several "Hill style" longbows by different makers (at least six different bowyers) and they are all fine shooters. We are blessed to have so many fine choices.
While there is no best, there are differences between makers and there are differences from bow to bow even with the same maker. The best bow is the one that I like the most, depending what day it is and what the barometer is..
I have 2 sunset hill bows that are 66 long and thay are string follow. Very nice shooting bows. So string follow dicctates differrent considerations for drawlength and bowlength which nate has worked out for his bows. I draw 27.5.
your hand size is critical for good handle fit...make sure you know the handle length and depth of any bows you are looking at for best fit...i.e. Guys with a palm width under 4" will find a handle of around 4" long to be a good fit.
Nate,
This is something,that i think is often overlooked in discusion of this style shooting.I think it warrants further explanation,if you would please.I know some like myself,who have small hands,have issues,with grips too big.What would your oppinion be as to proper grip to hand size and how you determine it?
wallace mountain longbows are top of the line. Longbow master.com
TTT
Back up in hopes of Nate seeing it.
other site sunset hill archives
Traxx,
when I make a bow for someone, I get their hand tracing and size the handle accordingly. Alot of Hillstyle longbow bowyers make 'standard' sized grips and you hope they fit you. I like to see the handle long enough so that the heel of the hand doesn't overlap the bottom of the grip, that's a no no. Also, I like to see the knuckles spaced correctly on the backside of the grip and you have to shape the back of the grip to fit the finger size. Done correctly, the handle grip will melt into your hand and you can control the bow very easily. If the grip doesn't fit, you will have problems shooting the bow. Fortunately, most bowyers will remake handles to fit your hand. I just like to save a step and fit the handle the first time.
IF you ascribe to the full palm, heel down "howard hill" grip on a classic afl bow handle, then for sure a custom tailored handle is essential. for the rest of us, it doesn't much matter at all since the bow hand's palm touches only air. :)
Well, I am certainly no expert on Hill-style bows. I've only had my Shelton for a few days, and it is the first straight grip bow I've had since the little lemon wood recurve I got when I was 8 years old. I can make some observations, however.
I have been shooting my other bows with a grip much like Rob describes with some success. When I got the Shelton, I first tried the low wrist "Howard Hill" grip. Then I experimented with the "Rob DeStefano" grip that I had been using.
For me and my bow, the Hill grip just works a lot better. I am much more consistent and groups are much smaller. I have also noticed that the bow is WAY quieter when using the low wrist grip. Don't ask me why, it just is. Old habits die hard, so I still catch myself raising my palm at times. I usually hear it first, but my shots also seem to wander off target a bit. The bow is pretty forgiving, so the hits aren't way off...just off.
When I use the Howard Hill form, this bow is almost magical. The arrows seem to guide themselves to the center of the target, no matter if it is 10, 15 or 20 yards. I haven't tried much longer ranges as I am still tweaking and tuning. This morning I reserved my string as the serving that came on the string was too fat for my nocks. I also experimented with nock point below the arrow nock. Much to my surprise, it is easier to nock an arrow from a back quiver that way. I'm not sure it made a great difference in terms of accuracy, but it didn't hurt it either.
I'm not saying Rob is wrong. I'm just saying it looks like, for me, the low wrist grip is going to work better. Don't be afraid to experiment until you find what works for YOU.
Don't over think the thing.
Give me the palm down. I like the powerful feel the heel down provides. Shove it and shoot!! I hate a small grip on a Hill bow. The 2" dished grip on my Yellowstone Hill fits my hand perfect. The finger joints wrap just where they should across the back of the bow, and the pressure is right on. My Tembo grip is a 1 3/4" dished. Too small. I didn't realize that Craig made the grips different size depending on bow weight or I would have requested the 2". The smaller grip floats in my hand and feels like I'm searching to hold it. Lesson learned. My Wesley will have the 2" dished!!
Find what you like. One size and shape does not fit all!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Molson:
Find what you like. One size and shape does not fit all!!
:readit:
Well, the nock under the arrow thing just isn't gonna work for me. :saywhat:
Molson, never heard that before--the part about Craig making the handle size based on bow weight. Makes no sense at all to me why that would be the case.
QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
Molson, never heard that before--the part about Craig making the handle size based on bow weight. Makes no sense at all to me why that would be the case.
Craig's words, not mine. That's what he told me when I asked him why the dished handle on my new Tembo was smaller than the dished handle on my Hill Yellowstone.
Regardless... What does make sense is to specify the grip you want when you order. Don't assume...
Molson, well I always do specify the grip I want but don't always get it. And, no, I was not suggesting those were your words. I just meant that it makes little sense to me to make a grip based on draw weight rather than the archer's hand. My hand is the same no matter what weight bow I'm shooting. ;)