Trad Gang

Hey NY bowhunters.
Now that the season is winding down I thought to report my findings in my area of the state.
I am in Sullivan county, close to ulster county.

I did not have the opportunity to kill a buck BUT they are clearly growing into decent and some considerable trophy size deer.

Our 3 point rule (one side) is working! I have NEVER seen so many beautiful racked bucks in my area.
My brother killed a terrific 8 point and almost killed another a week later minutes after he was busted by a 20" spread 6 point!
My friends and neighbors have killed some beauties as well.

In the evening, We have seen many bucks chasing does thru my fields and into the yard at times.
Different bucks!
The rut sure brings them out!
I don't know if ALL folks are following the rules by passing up small bucks but it sure looks bright by me.

Perhaps my fellow New Yorkers could share some input on what they have seen in their neck of the woods........Philip

Philip,I am glad your area is been managed for quality,this for sure pay off.Next year will only be better.

It's worked here in PA, can't see why it wouldn't in NY.

Now when the only shot opportunity you have at a buck all season is on a 4-pt, broadside at less than 10 yards..........

If I could see a deer I could give you some input, but up in this part of the world that is easier said than done. I'm glad you think it's working out for you!

I can definitely report bigger and better bucks in my area since the 3 point rule began.

I also totally understand the frustration of the rule as well.
Most of us foam at the mouth waiting for Oct.15 here in NY to get in the woods and bowhunt!

Then a 4 point comes by.......  :banghead:  .

This happened to me many times, twice this season alone!
I did kill a doe however and felt blessed for it.

Normally when I see a buck, it's a spiker or fork horn. I am now seeing some dandy bucks!
They need time to grow.
........Philip

Yep bigger bucks in PA due to antler restrictions. We're still in catch up mode compared to other states but it was one of the better things we did here in PA.

Ron

It works! No doubt. You actually start seeing results in about 1 year.  Just ask J. Williams! (that was a dandy BTW)

This year they implemented the three point rule in cape may county NJ(southern tip on NJ) and I hope it works, Over slautering of deer(brown its down mentality) has descimated the deer pop. The three rule is the last bit of hope for this area.Glad to hear its working in NY

Here in Delaware County we will be going to it next year. I'm glad, I think it will only make things better.  Take a doe for meat and let the bucks increase their numbers.

Fantastic thread Philip. I have seen many different farms here set buck management rules and during the third and fourth year you guys will see huge jumps in your bucks. At that time you will wish your state had implemented a buck harvest rule years ago. Good for the NY state DNR.

QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Fantastic thread Philip. I have seen many different farms here set buck management rules and during the third and fourth year you guys will see huge jumps in your bucks. At that time you will wish your state had implemented a buck harvest rule years ago. Good for the NY state DNR.

Thanks Kentucky.
I can't lie. When this 3 point rule began 4 years ago, I was bummed out about it because I am not a trophy hunter by no means.
I was more than happy to take a spike with my recurve. In fact I was tickled if I did.

We traditional bowhunters are already at a handicap with our equipment!   :banghead:  

This rule has forced us to be disciplined.
The honest hunters anyway.
It is now showing the results.

Typically I would have shot a young buck and my hunt was over. Now, being forced to hold out is exposing some great deer that I would not have seen otherwise.

The apple trees were amazing this year and brought deer to them like magnets.

It's one thing to hear that it works but I am SEEING the results!!
I had a bunch of friends come over one evening after the afternoon hunt and all we talked about were the bucks we all saw that day.....Good Bucks!

This was not the case before these rules.

I hope the input from these antler restrictions keeps coming guys. It's very informative and most interesting......Philip

I have been seeing a lot of deer this year and some good bucks too even in areas that do not have point regs in place. Big buck sightings have been on the increase for me in the last 3 years but I think its due to hunters voluntarily passing smaller deer. I on the other hand a not shy about shooting tender deer. Thankfully the state seems to be on the upswing all over as far as numbers even in the areas that supposedly have no deer.   :dunno:

Izzy, an upswing??   :saywhat:    :nono:   Not all over!!

http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com/

yes

NO......none of those deer were taken with in 80 miles or more of where I hunt. I have watched deer numbers in a downward spiral for the last 10 years. I know to many hunters who are seeing less and less year after year. I understand how QDM works...I saw the results in Illinois when I hunted there. But letting a spike or a forky pass here will not make the difference in the areas I spend my hunting time!

I apologize for venting on another's thread, Wrong place to do that   :notworthy:   I glad somebody is having a good season!

When NY 1st implemented the antler restrictions, I messed up on what could have been my 1st NY deer.  I saw a buck walking toward me. It looked like a fork horn so I never got ready.  once he was standing 10 yards form me it was obvious he was a 5 point aka Legal!   :knothead:

Hi Ron,
It's a big and diverse state. I grew up just 10 miles upriver (west on the Mohawk) from you and married a girl just east of you in Scotia. My uncle took a buck from Hamilton County in the 50's that is still in the record books today. Try doing that now. Our state is changing from an industrial area to a wilderness area as work goes elsewhere. Here in the finger lakes, the area is changing from agricultural to mature forests. The deer hunting is excellent, much like the Adirondacks 50 years ago. I was trying to add to this thread, that in NYS we are actually harvesting some excellent bucks that rival what you see in magazines from other states. And I'm proud of that, and my state. But I am empathetic to areas of the state that are becoming more suited to moose and bear.

I remember when Gary Alt, the renowned bear biologist, was put in charge of getting PAs deer population under control. He proposed a balanced herd and antler point restrictions. He was literally run out of town and vilified by PA sportsmen. Now they seem pretty happy to be shooting decent bucks. Glad NY, my native home is following suit. Haven't been able to hunt there in years but I miss my home turf.

I was on a hunt in Hamilton Co. in the 80's where my friend shot a deer that scored 177 gross, 164 5/8 net.I know what big deer are. That can still be done with hard work and a bit of luck. My little piece of the pie was fantastic hunting just 20 years ago, now it's not. I average seeing 3-4 deer a year,this year I have seen 2. I have kept a journal since 1988 and my sightings continue to decrease and I'm just not sure what to do short of moving to another state!

I'm sorry to read what you say Ron.
Has your area been overwhelmed with development taking away deer habitat?

I once worried of this in my area. We were once a dairy farm community surrounded by fields of corn, alfalfa and people who cared for the lands.

That is no longer. We had our share of development, believe me. Lot's of woodland now developed with house's.

the deer where less and less.

They have since adapted and they appear to be thriving.
..........Philip

Happy for you guys!Here in Quebec the goverment would need to be kicked in th B... and hunters should change their way of thinking and doing.Year after year gunners kill their spikes and forkhorn over piles of carrot and apples.They would think I'm crazy hangin' up a tree wearing blaze fluorescent orange and holding a stickbow letting pass a young immature six pointer!But I do'nt regret it a second!

I hope they implement it around here, we pass smaller bucks only to have them shot up by gun hunters. That's why bigger bucks are hard to come by in my area.

I certainley hope it ends in the Catskills and does not spread to central NY. LIke it was said, NY is a large and varied state for hunting - there is no one management tactic that will work statewide.

I agree with Ron W. about the decline in deer numbers (at least where I hunt in NY)over the past 10 years or so. A large 1100 acre property next to where I hunt has been practicing QDM for over 3 years and has only taken one 8 pointer in those 3 years of QDM. During those 3 years my deer sightenings have been the worse I can remember in over 30 years. I have no idea as to why there are so few deer but there are less deer. Perhaps hard winters, too many does taken, poor habitat, preditors killing fawns or ???

here on long island it is getting better i saw 3 this year that was in the 130 class and had one 5 yards from me and i shoot right under him.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Thanks Kentucky.
I can't lie. When this 3 point rule began 4 years ago, I was bummed out about it because I am not a trophy hunter by no means.
I was more than happy to take a spike with my recurve. In fact I was tickled if I did.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

I don't know anyone given the chance to choose between two farms to hunt one full of spikes and four pointers and one full of 2-3 year old bucks that would choose the first.

I believe over the years there have been to many doe permits, and the State has not managed their forests for the benefit of wildlife. A huge problem is poaching with little chance of that changing.    Kentucky TJ, as far as choosing a farm to hunt with little buck or big bucks,just getting permission would be something, but never having taken a deer with Trad. gear, it would be a shame to have a good shot [ I have had 2 in 30 years ] and not be able to take my first deer because he was one point shy of the legal requirements. I feel the only way QDM could possibly work in New York would be to make it State wide, no exceptions and to shorten the gun season.....That WILL never happen, here I go venting again.....sorry!   :notworthy:

I remember when Gary Alt took over in PA. I had the opportunity to talk to him about it at a bear tagging. I was one of the only ones there who agreed with him. I live in the Adirondacks and can have 15 deer in th efield in front of my house, not one a buck or only a small spike. Have seen 3 decent deer here in 4 years. We could do with better management around here. I think the small bucks and too many does is killing the little guys. They wear themselves out chassing the girls and then succum to the harsh winters. Fewer does and more bucks would help solve this issue. I'm real glad some are having population success.

I'll give you my take on the flipside. Long Island use to have a lot of big deer but now that you can shoot multiple bucks after filling you doe tags and that you can use your buck tag in the shotgun season I have seen the nice bucks go down hill. I know of pleanty of hunters that will shoot a real nice 10pt or 8pt and then shoot a spike too. If they would go back to anteless only in the 3 week shotgun season things would get a lot better.

Mint....interesting!! See, every area has a different situation! I for certain do not have the answer.

Ron, and anyone who is curious about the area's he likes to hunt......

They need land managent. I know you and I ghave talked about it in detail.

The Adirandacks and this Forever Wild Bull crap needs to be balanced. Basically what is being done is the whole Park (largest in the US) is left to be a mature forest. Untouched!  I will not go into who helped get it this way as I know it will ruffle feathers.

This northern half of NY state needs to managed for everyone!  It would be in NY's interest to do logging in certain areas. They do not need to strip the land of all trees. They could set aside Untouched area's but to leave the woods alone is senseless. If a fire starts they put it out, that's an oxi moron if I have heard of one.  

Logging would provide jobs and revenue to the state. It could make a healthier land balance and increase wildlife.

The increased wildlife would bring back hunters who have given up on the wilderness and much needed business to the small towns that cover the park. To me its a no-brainer.Then they can impose antler restrictions there.

3 Point antler restrictions are great! I was adamantly against earn a  buck when it came out in WI for the first year. The common argument was people who thought they would see "el macho grande" and not be able to shoot him. Well come on, how often is the first deer you see and are able to shoot at, the biggest buck of your life?  The following years our group saw much improvement to Buck size and we saw MORE bucks than ever.

I understand for people who have yet to shoot a deer with a bow, it would be frustrating to have to let the first deer you ever see pass. I am still waiting for my first as well and will not be picky if legal. I am for antler restrictions though as I saw 16 spike bucks last year and never anything larger than a 3 point.

If the new found restrictions bring about a healthy population and balance, you will have more chances in the following years. I am all for that and would participate in the programs. There has been much research on the herd management practices they are proposing and using. Studies show they work provided everyone works together. If you dont do your part then you are the broken link not everyone else accused of being a potential problem.

I think what MINT is describing is a deer reduction management tool. They are trying to get rid of deer numbers by any means necessary. If they cannot get numbers down with hunters, then they spend money on hired snipers.

Bring on the 3 point rule to my area. I will eat does given the opportunity. Or they can forget about it. I certainly could care less at this point in my life.

I would love to eat a doe.....if I could see one!! Let alone get a shot at one!

Charlie, there are enough deer in the Adirondacks that if you are able to adapt and read sign more than just  looking at tracks and rubs you will kill a deer there with some regularity. The numbers are nothing close to what we have down here but there are enough. I have a close friend who kills a buck every year in Schroon, Minerva or Indian Lake all of which have low deer densities. I have never heard him complain that there arent deer in the Adirondacks. My cousin, (No, Not Ray) kills at least a doe during bow season and a buck during gun season every year in Indian Lake, very low density.

        Before I started bowhunting again I hunted there more than in the southern zone and saw deer 2 out of 3 times, some close shots that I could have made with my longbows.

       And there are big bucks there as there have always been. Not like some imagine but they are there. They get big by age and low hunting pressure and not nutrition. Thats a hard deer to hunt and takes more time invested than I can put into it but they are there.

        Forest manipulation with logging would probably increase deer 10 fold. I personally like the idea of letting the land heal from 150 years of intense logging and revert back to wilderness (regrown wilderness if there is such a thing.)

 To stick to the thread topic the bucks are there (Dacks) as they have always been, not much improvement in antlers but theyre there. And it seems to me that in the Southern Zone, certainly there is antler improvement in many parts of the state due to self imposed restiction and antler regs (not my self imposed restriction, I like venison).    :knothead:

I don't see it in my hunting area on Long Island. In fact there is a section on LI that is teeming with deer, but because hunting is not allowed the deer as you might guess are scrawny. They were close a few years back to implementing a small hunt only to have anti hunters vandalize people property so the local leaders stopped the proposed hunt. Now I'm curious this year on how the crossbow season is going to affect us here in Long Island where they will allowed to be used in the special shotgun season. Already know a few compound shooters that are getting ready now with crossbows. I can oly imagine that the herd will be greatly impacted. One reason I wish there was a primitive bow hunt season, even for just a week would be special.

Ron,
I hear you man.
y place up north has very little deer. They are there, but not many. Where I hunt in the southern zone there are lots of deer. Lots of posted land too. Not a problem if the land is hunted, but if not when the guns go off the deer know where to hang out during the day. I have seen better bucks down there the last 2 yrs though. No ARs there & not sure I want them. I pass little bucks by choice and thats how I like it.

Deer hunting is so cool,so much to learn about them.I went to seminars,read so many books,seen DVDS,walked the wood.But guetting so much info is totally worthless if the doe/buck ratio is disbalanced.Here,in the area I am,there's just no rut activity,there's no competition among the few bucks.I've seen 1 shy scrape and 1 not so rub in acres over acres!If we can damage deer herd then we can manage two! Can't we? I dream of getting a mature buck with my longbow here.

All I can say for you New York guys is give it time. They implemented the 3pt rule here in Arkansas about 10yr ago and some areas saw immediate results others have taken awhile. The public land that surrounds my family's land here is one of those areas that has taken awhile. 10yrs ago if a fella killed a 70in 8pt he had himself a real trophy. Now in the last 2 seasons my dad got a 150in 10pt, My brother a 140in 12pt, and myself a 115in 9pt. Granted all were taken with rifles but please understand Im sharing this to show how the trophy potential has increased over the last 10yrs. Because of high hunting pressure in this area the numbers still arent great but more bucks are making it to be 4-7yrs of age to reach their potential.

So here is my view of the Alt management plan in PA. I like the antler restrictions because everyone's opportunity at a nice buck is now very good on both public and private land. What I didn't like is we implmented a two week concurrent antlerless rifle season. That reduced the herd pretty dramtically across the state. I think we could have cut that out after a season or two. I have no problem with proper deer management and I get it but sometimes what is viewed as a good practice can go off course if not adjusted accordinly. The other side of this debate is private versus public land. I don't think this plan worked very well in some areas because the plan was 'cookie cutter' and not orginally tailored to address public and private land but I suppose that would take some creative planning and real adjustments.

Ron

QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Vought:
 I don't think this plan worked very well in some areas because the plan was 'cookie cutter' and not orginally tailored to address public and private land but I suppose that would take some creative planning and real adjustments.

Ron

Ron you hit the nail on the head.

There is no "fix it" button. Just like all good Things in life, it will take constant work and re-evaluation.

My feeling is when they did away with the county by county doe allotment system and lumped it into larger management areas it compounded the problem,take area 2G where I,ve hunted for years it incompasses 10 different counties or parts of with a big variation in terrain.From big woods to an agriculture,I can't see how this big an area can be managed effectively,I haven't seen a noticable improvement in the more remote areas I hunt,there's always have been some nice bucks taken I took a 142 incher in the 80's but to say flat out the entire program is succesful I disagree.The herd is way down,how do I build the excitement in my younger grandsons when you can sit day after day in proven areas and not see a deer,and it's not the Game Commission's excuse that there isn't any feed out there,sure the mast crop is down this year but there's always has been other sources and that hasn't changed,there's more browse then before with that drastic herd reduction practice the deer just aren't there.

Antler restriction I think is a great thing. I wish they would take it from 3 to 4 points in Pa
NOW A WORD OF WARNING for you NY hunters If the NY DEC decides to start a Anterless deer erridication program because its the NEW in thing deer management DO everything in your power to stop it unless you feel like sitting in the woods for days or maybe weeks without seeing a deer it is a very tough to introduce new hunters into the sport when they don't see anything for days My Son is 13 he would rather play video games then sit for hours on end looking at trees

Earl Jeff......I sit for weeks now and don't see anything......so I guess it's already here in some areas!! There I go venting again....sorry!

No reason to be Sorry Ron when the public is being lied to with things like there are to many deer there destroying the forest. etc, etc.
Trust me there are other motivations behind this. guess I'm venting now ?

I hunt family land in Pa as well as NY. Before the Gary Although plan I would go down & see 150 deer in a week of bowhunting. Since the plan now I can go for a week and see maybe 50. Difference is I see much better bucks & the habitat is better. Needs to be balanced. I hunt in 3C. The doe season doesn't open until the first Saturday there because they overkilled the does in the area. I rifle hunt there a couple days as well. Feels good to pass on a small Buck knowing he will be there next yr. In NY if I pass on that Buck he gets shot on the next property over.

Tim, your right on. The days of seeing 50-70 deer in NY forest was a case of overpopulation I think. When I lived on the PA border I remember seeing the browse line all along 84. Thats not natural and is harmful to the ecosystem overall. I stay away from there to steer clear of in laws nowadays but I would imagine you no longer see that browse line if the deer population is so low.

The correct balance is the key to Deer Management not Not making money on licenses and Political pressure from Insurance lobbiest. Just saying We all know that wouldn't happen.

Lets not forget the farm lobbiest and the tree grower lobbiest which our DCNR is one of.My son and grandsons hunted with me the first day of rifle season half of us did not see a deer on State Forest and State Game lands and there's food plots in these areas.

Thanks to all for your input. It has been a very interesting tread and a learning experience too.

I want to make a note if I may:

I have a friend who lives near me in Sullivan County who says he has not seen a deer.
He swears they are disappearing.
Here's the interesting part of his theory;

He has not gone into the woods AT ALL in the morning.
He says he does'nt like "cold going to warm temps",
He only hunts the afternoon "warm going to cold temps" and gets in his woods at 3pm for rifle season and 4pm for bow season.

He never scouts and does more complaining than hunting. He has the best equipment, every gadget and I can't forget his scentlock suit.

I like to refer to him as "special".

Everyone else around him is in the woods and has either killed a deer or 2 or has at least had encounters with deer.

Maybe he's right. I no longer preach to him about hunting.
I simply tell him he's right.

Well I don't know about your friend, but I have hunted in the AM getting in before day light, Hunted till legal shooting time in the afternoon,sundown. I have gone at mid day for 3-4 hours and I have also stayed all day predawn till sundown. I have hunted Hamilton, Fulton, Montgomery and Albany counties. In over 80 hours I have seen one flag and a deer at 60 yards that I have no idea what it was buck or doe. Seems I would have seen something more than what I have......I did before,what can I say,maybe I just have a black cloud over my after doing this for over 40 years!

I would love them to pass a 3pt. on at least one side state wide. I think guys would love the results after just a few years. I like shooting tender deer as well so I shoot fawns and 1.5yr. old doe's that did not get bred the previous november. I have to disagree about letting a spikey or forkey walk, it will make a difference. It will take some time but it will make a difference. I still believe our biggest issue right now with the deer population is the damn coyotes. They are reeking havoc with our deer herds. I have a friend who has taken 54 coyotes so far this year and over a couple hundred in the last few years. He tells me that deer make up as much as 60-70% of their diet. Don't listen to DEC, they released a study saying the coyote pop. is only 6-7 animals every 10 sq. miles, come on what a joke. I have that many as I type this with 800 yards of my house alone. Kill off the yotes and I promoise the deer population would increase dramatically. Shawn

I'm with Shawn on this. A couple of years ago I starting passing on young bucks on my property. I know most of them get shot during gun season when they walk off my property but the ones that don't .... The last six bucks I have shot have been nice eight pointers and I love to think I let them walk when they were younger. I also think NY should go to a one buck system. This would encourge people to pass on younger bucks, The coyotes around me are very proficient hunters. They hunt in groups and "comb" the hills about fifty yards apart and four or five across. They take plenty of deer. Alomost nightly I can hear a pack howling.

Hi Ron,
How's the acorn crop down in the Mohawk Valley? It's about zero around here, and I have really had to adjust my strategy, but after about 4 weeks, I found where they are hiding :-)

Izzy,
You are more than right about he deer hunting in Hamilton County. Statistically, sitting in a tree in the middle of six million acres and hoping for a deer to walk under you is a bit of a stretch. You need to work it a good bit harder up there, but they're there :-)

No mast crop anywhere I have hunted this year...I did run into a few beech nuts up north but not many!

I heard the beech nuts were good on the Cedar River too. All we can hope for is a good mast next year :-)

I may do a canoe or kayak hunt up north next year....just to do something different.

Guspup, Cedar river had a super beech crop this year more than I can ever remember seeing in my 25 years of hunting there. Cyclic Rivers can attest to that. We jumped deer off of a beech flat less then 100 yards from the truck on the way in. I also hunted with Ken at his place in Johnstown and you literraly could not avoid stepping on them on the skidder trails. Just my observations.

              Just yesterday I heard the craziest thing from a friend of mine. He had a tough year hunting this year with only doe and 1 small buck sen in the Adirondacks and he thought it was because most deer had never eaten beech nuts since the crop has been so poor for the last 5 or 6 year  and didnt recognize them as a food source. Poor Mother Nature cant do anything right these days.   :scared:    :rolleyes:

iF they ever implant a 3 point reg in the Northern zone it will be time to hang up the bow, they would need to specify areas. thank God we do not have the coyote problem North, they are not to blame here. healty beech nut crop this year but no acorns and as Charlie said something needs to be done as my hunting lives and dies with the mast crop, no apple trees where i hunt either. i was 3 yards from a large 8 point this year hunting South which was a blast!!! the call to hunt still burns STRONG in me and i prefer to hunt the mountain with a CHANCE to see deer rather then hunt South whith a good chance of running in to other hunters. as Izzy stated hunting North for bucks requires MUCH more then looking for tracks, a TON of leg work and knowledge of the land, even then to take one with the bow is a true trophy, my hats still off to Bowspirit for the buck he took on the mountain!!!!

Shawn,  Wapiti.
I agree with you guys entirely.
I did forget to mention about the coyotes by me as well.
We have plenty of them and they are having their way with the deer.
They need to be thinned out.......Philip

Ken coyotes are as big a problem up North as down here. I looked up some old posts of yours and you commented that you saw more yote tracks than deer tracks most times afield. Fulton county has a fair amount of deer killed if ya look in the reports, I think guys need to apply different strategies in your area but know bowhunters do kill deer up there. Shawn

QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Fantastic thread Philip. I have seen many different farms here set buck management rules and during the third and fourth year you guys will see huge jumps in your bucks. At that time you will wish your state had implemented a buck harvest rule years ago. Good for the NY state DNR.

Kentucky TJ is absolutely right that if AR's are applied in your area that you WILL notice more older bucks.I'm fortunate enough to live and hunt in the middle of the pilot AR area the DEC started 6 seasons ago and all the hunters,taxidermists and butchers I know have seen the difference as well.Not only are there more bigger bucks,but more bucks in general I believe.I took my 2 biggest racks ever,one this season and one in '09,and with a recurve and not a gun I might add.
The DEC is expanding the AR's to 7 neighboring WMU's,I believe,next year and I alotta the guys in those areas must be pumped.AR's work!

Wow! Some great input guys!

Like I said earlier, I have seen such great bucks since the 3 point rule began. Next season is only gonna be better!

To those of you that just got or are gonna get an antler restriction in your area.......
Be patient. Don't get frustrated.
Let the little guys walk. Kill a doe.
Hopefully a dry doe.
YOU WILL SEE MORE AND BETTER BUCKS.

If we are killing does and letting little bucks live, 2 things will happen.

1- The obvious answer is the buck will live longer and develop a rack

2- By taking a doe we are bringing the buck/doe ratio to a more balanced level......
Which means the bucks will seek out these "fewer" does......which means we SEE more bucks. Racked Bucks. Keep it coming. Great tread!
.........Philip

I say shoot only fawns and with a bowyou should be able to avoid button bucks. It is tough to say buck to doe ratio's are skewed when guys are not see many deer. Shoot a fawn you killthat one deer, shoot a big doe and you kill her and the fawns she was gonna have in the spring, you kill 3 for 1 when ya shoot an old doe. I hate to even shoot a 1.5yr. old doe without fawn but will instead of that 1.5yr. old buck. I passed a ton of sm. bucks this year but I will admit due to my lack of hunting time lately whatever walks by tomorrow morning is in trouble. Shawn

QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
I say shoot only fawns and with a bowyou should be able to avoid button bucks. It is tough to say buck to doe ratio's are skewed when guys are not see many deer. Shoot a fawn you killthat one deer, shoot a big doe and you kill her and the fawns she was gonna have in the spring, you kill 3 for 1 when ya shoot an old doe. I hate to even shoot a 1.5yr. old doe without fawn but will instead of that 1.5yr. old buck. I passed a ton of sm. bucks this year but I will admit due to my lack of hunting time lately whatever walks by tomorrow morning is in trouble. Shawn

I agree Shawn.
The doe I killed this season was a fawn.
I did say in my previous post "hopefully a dry doe".
Good for you on passing up the small bucks!
Good Luck in the morning.Be Safe.......Philip

There are a lot of yotes in the northern zone. Difference is because of fewer deer they have to hunt harder for their deer too. Antler restrictions where I hunt up north would be a tough pill to take. I love a big rack but I like meat as well. Don't give me a shoot a doe line either. Like stated by Ron there are areas in the nz where seeing a doe can be a blessing. AR are good but not for the entire state.

Sorry to hear that.
I used to hunt in Indian Lake/ Lewey lake back in the day.
I killed a deer most every year with my bow up there along Rt. 30. between Indian and Lewey lake campgrounds.
I only killed one buck though....spike.
But plenty of deer, back then anyway.

I did hunt in Warrensburg once and saw a magnificent buck. I was not able to even draw my bow as he came out of no where real quick! Never heard him coming as it was raining and the leaves on the ground were soft as carpet.

I'm not suggesting Antler restrictions statewide.
I was sharing what it has done for my area.

Good Luck...........Philip

When Gary Alt gave us our new deer policy(antler restrictions and high doe harvests) he said our buck kill would triple. Well it has plummeted. I'm a taxidermist and all our numbers are down from what they were before ar. Yea we're seeing nice bucks killed, just less than before. There is no doubt they work but you can't kill of all your does, If you have to hunt public land in Pa. you are an unhappy hunter. If you have private land to hunt you're blest. I'd like to move!!

QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Keller:
When Gary Alt gave us our new deer policy(antler restrictions and high doe harvests) he said our buck kill would triple. Well it has plummeted. I'm a taxidermist and all our numbers are down from what they were before ar. Yea we're seeing nice bucks killed, just less than before. There is no doubt they work but you can't kill of all your does, If you have to hunt public land in Pa. you are an unhappy hunter. If you have private land to hunt you're blest. I'd like to move!!

I can understand why AR's wouldn't be very beneficial under those conditions.Hopefully your DNR sees the light and does something about not allowing so many does to be taken.

QuoteOriginally posted by J.Williams:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Keller:
When Gary Alt gave us our new deer policy(antler restrictions and high doe harvests) he said our buck kill would triple. Well it has plummeted. I'm a taxidermist and all our numbers are down from what they were before ar. Yea we're seeing nice bucks killed, just less than before. There is no doubt they work but you can't kill of all your does, If you have to hunt public land in Pa. you are an unhappy hunter. If you have private land to hunt you're blest. I'd like to move!!

I can understand why AR's wouldn't be very beneficial under those conditions.Hopefully your DNR sees the light and does something about not allowing so many does to be taken. [/b]

:thumbsup: