do so many people shoot weights well over this recommendation? I understand it from a penetration stand point, but what about in terms of efficiency from the bow. I would be interested in knowing is there a point where we are starting to take away from what the bow is actually capable of in terms of handling a heavy arrow, and could a heavy arrow actually rob the bow of its efficiency and do more harm than good in a hunting situation.
i've done some work infront of a chrono with my 69#28" recurve. i found my momentum values kept going up until i hit around 1000gr of arrow mass. after that the momentum values started going down again. you can certainly go too heavy.
I shoot 12-13 GPP for everything. Works great!
The lighter weight looks better through a chrono thus making the bow look faster.
And faster doesn't necessarily mean anything when it comes to hunting. You need to balance it all. Penetration is everything. Of course, speed is a factor, but not the big picture.
All bows are different too, there is no "one equation" to handle all. You've got to experiment, much like ozy clint does.
Bjorn knows what works for him, we all should.It's part of the fun!
I like the way 9gpp shoots through every hunting bow I own. I see no reason to rob myself of accuracy by shooting a heavier arrow when 9 gpp will kill anything I plan to hunt. If my plans included Australian water buffalo, then I might come to a different conclusion!
Those recommendations are for the most part, a starting point/mimimum and the bowyers will not honor their warranty if you don't shoot at least the minimum. I know that Black Widow's warranty states no less than 8 gpp. Mike
What Ozy Clint said. One of the main reasons I do not give out Chrono specs. is that few folks actually will compare apples to apples. They will to compare a speed that they heard a bow got shooting an arrow that was 400 gr out of a 60 lb bow to a bow that was chronograped at 9 or 10 gpp. Or that was chronographed with a chrono that was not set properly and test taken under dubious \\circumstances. Or you give them an actual test and then they test it differently and do not get the same results.
I have found the same results that Ozy gave when using normal hunting weight bows. of course if you are shooting a bow that is 100 lbs and still an efficient those results will differ and it may even go to a higher weight before the momentum takes a downhill slide.
God bless you, Steve
To a point heavier arrow weight can help with penetration and make up for some short draw or light bow penetration faults, or perhaps allow for a more massive broadhead. However, unless one is hunting moose with a 50 pound longbow, going extremely heavy on the arrow weight just changes how many feet or yards of pass through you will get, while at the same time adding more arc to your arrow flight and limiting your distance that you can accurately shoot. In most cases for deer and elk 10 grains per pound will do just fine and less than that if you are using a heavier bow. My wife is shooting 435grains out of her 38@26.5" hybrid, it appears that is more than a match for the deer she shoots.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Bolin:
Those recommendations are for the most part, a starting point/mimimum and the bowyers will not honor their warranty if you don't shoot at least the minimum. I know that Black Widow's warranty states no less than 8 gpp. Mike
:thumbsup: Mike got right here....I don't think any bowyer want's to sell a bow that may get damaged by shooting to light of an arrow. When I think about shooting something 12-20 yards away speed is not an issue anyway. Heavy arrows also help keep thing silent!!
Tutanka, just because the arrow is going slower doesnt mean you not being efficient. I think it was O.L. that determined most well made bows are at there most efficient between 10-12 gpp, not there fastest, most efficient.
Eric
I agree with what McDave says. No need for over 9 gr./lb. and I hunt pretty big critters here way up North.
I worry less about speed than I do sound. I want a quiet bow. Silence kills a lot faster than speed.
what others up above have posted - bowyers will advise a minimum arrow gpp for their bows and will not warranty the bow if you go under that recommendation.
there is no detriment to any stick bow by going higher in arrow gpp. i think there was a member poll here at powwow that revealed most trad bowhunters are using 10gpp or more.
aside from the safety factor of the minimum gpp, the rest is all subjective.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
what others up above have posted - bowyers will advise a minimum arrow gpp for their bows and will not warranty the bow if you go under that recommendation.
there is no detriment to any stick bow by going higher in arrow gpp. i think there was a member poll here at powwow that revealed most trad bowhunters are using 10gpp or more.
aside from the safety factor of the minimum gpp, the rest is all subjective.
Rob, that poll is what got me thinking, I guess what I am really looking for is how does one know that he or she is getting the peak performance out of their setup. As Ozy Clint posted above his bow actually started to loose performance when the arrow weight was above 1000 grains. It appears that the only way to truly find out is to make up a lot of various weight arrows and shoot them thru a chrono. I guess I was thinking that the bowyer was taking the guess work out by listing the recommended not in all cases the minimum gpp.
A way to get the real scoop on a bow and arrow combo is ask the bowyer what he shoots out of his bow. You will probably get the best setup for that bow.
Heck that's what we do. . . .build our bows and then get the best arrow out of it to hunt with.
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by Tutanka:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
what others up above have posted - bowyers will advise a minimum arrow gpp for their bows and will not warranty the bow if you go under that recommendation.
there is no detriment to any stick bow by going higher in arrow gpp. i think there was a member poll here at powwow that revealed most trad bowhunters are using 10gpp or more.
aside from the safety factor of the minimum gpp, the rest is all subjective.
Rob, that poll is what got me thinking, I guess what I am really looking for is how does one know that he or she is getting the peak performance out of their setup. As Ozy Clint posted above his bow actually started to loose performance when the arrow weight was above 1000 grains. It appears that the only way to truly find out is to make up a lot of various weight arrows and shoot them thru a chrono. I guess I was thinking that the bowyer was taking the guess work out by listing the recommended not in all cases the minimum gpp. [/b]
this is what's called "personal testing", and there is NO substitute for it! :)
stay above the bowyer recommended gpp and try as many different arrow mass weights and types as possible. you'll find something good to work with sooner than later. and, join the club - we've all been there when it comes to arrow selection and some of us are still sorting that out. ;)
however, rather than get all anal and techie about arrow weights, consider that most bowhunters are flinging feathered shafts at game within 20 yards or so. with the average 50# or so stick bow, that won't make much of a trajectory difference to get worried about whether you use 10 or 11 or even 12 gpp arrows. do the testing for yerself, but it's more thinking and concern than need be done. :wavey:
there ARE benefits to heavier 10-12gpp arrows, which includes a better release due to a more efficient use of transmitted limb/string energy into where it belongs, the arrow ... and therefore less "shock" to the bow hand as well ... and heavy, slower flying missiles will have an edge of sorts on penetration.
and lastly but MOST importantly - none of this stuff matters unless you can deliver sharp steel in the right spot on a critter.
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
A way to get the real scoop on a bow and arrow combo is ask the bowyer what he shoots out of his bow. You will probably get the best setup for that bow.
Heck that's what we do. . . .build our bows and then get the best arrow out of it to hunt with.
Mike
there ya go, tutanka - mike just gave the easy and fastest answer to yer concerns, and yer good to go! :thumbsup:
Most bowyers recommend this as they don't want to be liable for a bow that was in fact abused by shooting to light of an arrow for it.
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesKerr:
Most bowyers recommend this as they don't want to be liable for a bow that was in fact abused by shooting to light of an arrow for it.
that's all well and good if the customer tells the truth about things like dry firing and using too light arrow weights. it eventually becomes an ethical honor thing.
Who would admit a failure because they shot an under weight arrow????????????????????
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesV:
Who would admit a failure because they shot an under weight arrow????????????????????
only the righteous and honorable - all others need not apply.
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesV:
Who would admit a failure because they shot an under weight arrow????????????????????
i have enough respect for the bowyer to admit that it was my fault if i knowingly damaged a bow by shooting too light of an arrow
or damaged the bow in another way
i tend to shoot 10-11 grains per pound
and have never had an issue
kevin
Sooner or later every bow I have or had gets dry fired from a split nock or from 'I just screwed up when I drew it'. I would be scared of a bow that was so hot that it would blow up if I screwed up once a great while. My son prefers heavier arrows, not for penetration as much as it brings the arrow up into his sight picture more and keeps his point of aim closer in. Even though he does not split aim, he acknowledges that he can see the arrow. It has been my experience that I don't like the extra light arrows after shooting heavier arrows out of any given bow, but I found that my extra heavy bows did not care if I was shooting less than 10 grains per pound, the arrows were still plenty heavy anyway, I think it has something to do with the heavy bows not being as efficient as the lighter bows.
Some quite respected trad gangers have already responded. Still keep in mind that the gpp subject continues to be controversial at times and pops up on a frequent basis. Even experts may disagree.
The voice of the last gpp polls significantly contradicts some of the previous advice. See results below.
Poll results after 526 Trad Ganger votes from 06/29/2010
less then 8 ggp 1% (6)
8 - 9 ggp 9% (48)
9 - 10 ggp 29% (150)
10 - 11 ggp 35% (182)
11 - 12 ggp 16% (86)
12 - 13 ggp 7% (36)
more than 13 ggp 3% (18)
Poll results after 175 Trad Ganger votes from 10/30/2011
Under 8 ggp 1% (2)
8 - 9 ggp 5% (9)
9 - 10 ggp 28% (49)
10 - 11 ggp 42% (73)
11 - 12 ggp 15% (27)
Over 12 ggp 9% (15)
My intent is to enlighten you to the greatly varied opinions. Your personal confidence is paramount.
Note: Don't rule out over-all arrow design. For example: one of my set-ups is 560 grains at 30% ultra-EFOC shot from a 55#r. The other set-up is ~611 grains with 32% Ultra-EFOC from a 51#'r . I would typically think that an ~50 grain increase with the same arrow w/exception to a 1" shorter shaft would not even produce discernable penetration. The results are undeniably and convincingly visible. Even shooting a bow 4#'s lighter(51#'s), the results remain impossible to deny.
You may wish to sincerely consider performing your own testing. While I set-up and plan for the unexpected, I don't utilize the higher gpp set-up and higher Ultra-EFOC set-up primarily since the abuse on targets is personally cost prohibitive.
Note: I don't observe any discernable impact differences to 20 yards from a tuned arrow until I approach a 100 grain delta.
It remains imperative that you establish your own personal established confidence.
I think you need to decide what you want out of your arrow and bow. Are you looking for effiiciency? Make up a few different weight arrows, chrono them and compare the results with the energy / efficiency calcs from physics 101. You can extrapolate out to the most efficient set up. This will leave you with a very heavy arrow with a very high arc'd trajectory. If you want a heavy arrow with a quiet bow and a reasonable trajectory that is a different arrow set up. If you want a flat trajectory then a light arrow and a louder bow and possibly some hand shock are the results. As mentioned, you have to test and find what works best for your desired results.
I would give some very serious thought to what you really want your arrows and bow to do. Base it on what you hunt and then find the right arrow to you bow and what you want. I spent a ton of money before I found the EFOC arrows I wanted. Search all you want. Just remember it can be expensive.
Years ago you would not get me to shoot under 600 grains from my bows.Then they were 55-60 lbs. Now I shoot near 10 lbs less and almost 100 grains less and shoot thru most every critter I kill. Whodathunkit?RC