This is not meant to be a thread about which is the better head. I am not a novice having bowhunted well over 50 years and had something happen last evening that I only saw one other time many years ago. In years past I have mostly used multi blade heads but have used 2 blade on occasion. I have been hunting this year strictly with 2 blade.
Last evening I shot a doe that was relaxed and not on alert by any means. The shot looked perfect, tight behind the shoulder and mid rib. The doe flinched but stood absolutely still as if nothing had happened. About 20 to 30 seconds after the shot she twitched her tail a couple times, reached down and took a bite, then walked about 40 feet and stood for another 30 seconds.
I was beginning to think my eyes had failed me and I had missed her altogether. She then got wobbly and lay down and was dead in seconds. Upon inspection, the arrow had entered as I had thought and exited behind the offside shoulder and about 3 inches above the brisket. It was obvious she did not know she had been mortally wounded and probably never felt anything.
Usually an animal jumps into high gear when shot and leaves full bore. My whole point of this is, do you think there is more shock effect from a multi blade and is felt more over a 2 blade that zips on through quickly without the impact being felt?
Bill I had this happen to me twice last year with a wensel woodsman. I was shocked, but either doe didn't go but twenty yards. The one took one bound and just stood there as if nothing happened and then fell over. And the other did what you just described, except I could see the blood pouring out of her. Very interesting.
I have only had this happen once. I believe that if the 2 blade hits just right, it goes between the ribs without contacting any bone and the animal doesn't react much.
ive experienced the same thing a couple of time over the years
seems to me a calm animal quiet bow and super sharp broadhead may have more to do with it than broadhead style
just my .02
kevin
I have had this happen with many deer. Using both 2 blades and 3 blades. I think the three key factors for this to happen is: the arrow not hitting any bone, which would cause shock. A razor sharp head. Have you ever cut yourself with a very sharp knife? Usually you do not feel a thing.The last factor I believe is quietness of the bow. More often I have had this type of result with my longbow vs. my recurve.
jsut my two cents!
Congrats on the deer Bill!!
chris <><
Yeah, it all depends on what you hit. I've had the same thing happen, too. I once shot a big buck through the lungs and he took one hop and then just stood there until he fell over. The 2 blade head had slipped right between the ribs going in and going out. A 3 blade will increase the odds of hitting or nicking a rib, due to the width, but it can still happen.
I've had it happen often with woodsmans . I agree that it probably is a very sharp cut on contact BH and not hitting bone shot from a well tuned quiet bow. I sure do like it....! No drama of the 'blood trailing'
I have had it happen with both 2 and multi-blade broadheads. This year 2 of my does have had exit wounds HIGHER on the body than the entrance wound! :confused: It seems they are getting more and more wired where I hunt.
When I had the training wheels this happened all the time. My 500 grain arrow at 265 FPS zipped right through. I'd shot dozens of deer that just went about their business and tipped over or lay down. Unless I hit solid bone they never ran...just walked or stood there. This was with 3 blade razor-baks.
While all of the posts above is a factor...I think the single biggest factor that makes all of the above possible is a well tuned set-up that creates a complete pass through. Good arrow flight and a minimum of paradox make that possible. The deer just don't "feel" the impact to the point where they are freaked out.
Sounds like extremely sharp broadheads (2 or 3) blade are the culprit. Not that that's a bad thing. Especially since it sounds like the doe had no idea that you were there. I'm curious though as far as the missing the rib bone theory, did you check after you skinned the deer? Or do you still have her hanging? If you went in between ribs going in and coming out, I'm not at all surprised by her lack of reaction.
I think it depends more on whats hit (ie bone)...and also the flight action is a reaction to the noise intially. If they didnt hear a thing, and you didnt hit bone with a sharp head, you're right she likely never felt a thing.
I Havent had one fall over dead quite like that but I have had one walk off similar not acting like it was shot at all, no real reaction.
I think it could and does happen with a multi blade also.
Tradman's got it!
I agree with your hypothesis, but if it took 50-60 seconds for her to lose consciousness, then I'd be really concerned. If she ran out of there, she could cover 1/2 mile in that time.
I had that happen last year with a doe. I shot her with a Grizzly El Grande. She walked away about 5 yards then fell over.
I think that is actually better in my opinion. If you look at how a deer reacts when hit with a firearm. The shock transfers through out the body; actually shocking the deer even if the deer is mortally hit.
A deer normally wont spook as much when there is no shock trama which means they will run less or resume what they are doing.
As for the two or three blade issue; from what I have seen a good solid 2 blade single bevel seems to cut better and if hitting a bone is more apt to break it.
Deer I have shot with 3 blade do create a slightly larger exit and entrance just as long as they dont hit bone. But they always respond to the hit.
I have never had 1 just stand there after a pass through hit from a 3 blade.
Its kinda like when you have cut yourself accidentally with a sharp knife; you dont feel it right away. We as people understand what happened and react. Animals dont if they do not percieve a threat.
Its all in whether you hit a rib or not, thats the impression I have gotten from my experiences and others I've chatted with over camp fires over the years.....if had...it would have been a different story. I've only shot one deer with a 2 blade....and I cut a rib in half.....I heard it snap, and he wasn't too happy about it. Took off like a bat outta Haties for about 70 yards.
I've had those same type instances you had many many times with 4 blades...I've even had them go right back to eating acorns.
Hit a rib, off shoulder,....different reaction no matter the head....and I also believe the sharpness of the head probably contributes also...as well as a quiet bow to stop it all from getting started in the 1st place.
That's my 2.... :campfire:
I am sure you are onto something Bill. My thought on your deer in this situation is I think if you inspect the ribs from the inside that the two blade head went in and maybe out also vertically between the ribs as well. That would even further reduce the shock effect not breaking any ribs.
Side note: A quiet bow has a lot to do with it also as well as the age of the deer as well.
I never checked if the doe had any broken ribs before taking her to the processor so don't know if that had any bearing. I have had several deer react slowly and trot a ways before dying but as I said, she never even lifted a leg to move for some time.
Happened a few times in my past..Made me think I missed ...NOT !!!
In over 4 1/2 decades,I've only had one encounter close to this.Last year I shot a quartering away doe antelope and got a pass through.Antelope are very high strung and usually run a long ways,like a race horse.
She took two or three jumps and slowly walked to a point 35 yds from where she had been hit,then lay down.Her head went down in a minute and never came up.I'd never seen anything like it on antelope.
As it turned out,what looked like a good double lung hit was a little low and just missed both lungs and was a liver hit.This doe had so little reaction that the others with her didn't even run.I had never seen that happen either.
A rib was cut in and out.The broadhead was a Grizzly,KME honed like a mirror.I believe the pass through was a big contributor and I think a polished edge also helped.I didn't get it at the time but after reading posts here,lack of sound probably helped also.
I was inside a plywood blind and the bow was quiet to begin with.
This was my shortest recovery on an antelope-35 yds and a liver hit.The only other liver hit I had traveled 200 yds but it wasn't a complete pass through-the fletch remained in for some distance.I remember Fred Bear stressing the importance of pass throughs,saying without one,an animal may travel 5 times as far.
I also am not convinced that number of blades would have made any difference in this case.
I wish it happened more often. i think there are other variables than just hitting ribs on the way in or out .Obviously how wired the deer is, but other factors such as Doe with little ones, noise of bow , just deer reacting differently to pressure. I haven't had one react like this for 6 years and my set up is way better tuned now. I remember feeling like " WOW that was awesome to see what is possible with a bow and arrow .....very ,very fast death"
Happened to me once with a black bear. Two blade, quick pass through, the bear flinched, looked around and went back to chewing grass.
Like everybody is saying, the head may not matter so much as long as you get a non bone or tendon pass through.... but GOOD LUCK with that.
Keep 'em sharp and shoot straight.
Shot a cow elk with a WW she jump , them with back to eating and just fall over within 60 sec .
Good topic Bill...
Sure she didn't go far and maybe didn't even know what happened....but I'm bothered by the fact that she lived so long!
I'm a firm believer in the more ya cut, the more they bleed, and the quicker they die!
With a perfect shot like you described with big 3 blades, I can't remember one not going down in 10 seconds or so.
Even back when I shot 2 blades, I never had one just stand around....
Had a buck I heartshot once go almost 500 yards into a swamp. When I finally dragged the brute out of the muck, it indeed had a hole right through the heart. A passthrough with a zwickey 2 blade. I was dumbfounded.
Wonder if the extra blade would have shortened that? The bloodtrail did look like a herd got slaughtered though, no lack of heavy blood. Sprayed everywhere. Adrenaline?
The calm bear I discussed earlier was out in about 30-40 seconds also. Heavy blood, just took its time to die I guess...
:dunno:
yup ......... with a Zwickey Delta 4 blade ,I shot completely through ......... Buck continued eating acorns while slowly walking , I could then hear his labored breathing and he fell over dead .
While field dressing I found that the Zwickey had passed dead center through the heart . To me this illustrates the fact that a sharp well placed arrow is not "painful" to the animal . Heck he just fell asleep after eating a meal , just like most of us !!!! ......... LOL
I have had similar reactions from deer on a few occasions but only on broadside shot deer. It seems that there is less trauma around an entrance wound on a broadside shot compared to a quartering shot if the quartering shot enters through the ribcage and not behind. Maybe it has as much to do with shot angle as it does with the type of broad head.
I have noticed much more trauma to the area around the entrance hole, on animals that are shot quartering. Some so severely that it looked like the animal had been shot with a gun. Although there is always some trauma around the entrance hole even with a 2 blade it has been much worse with the 3 blade shot animals. Again, much more noticeable on quartering animals. It seems to me that the level of trauma around the entrance is pretty similar between 2 and 3 blade heads on broad side shot animals. Don't get me wrong I love a 3 blade head just as much as a 2 but this is what I have noticed.
Yes all my broad heads are shaving sharp.
Bill
I like this thread. I have been re-thinking broadheads all season. For the last 2 years I have been using either Trailmaker heads (3 blades) or the HUGE Ace heads with the convex edge. Deer die quickly....the last one was only 45 yards or so and collapsed in full leap.
But my rethinking is based on two things....I have dropped down in bow weight, (51# vs 57#)and penetration has changed...no longer am I getting a immediate pass through. The arrow eventually comes out the other side, but it seems to work its way out, not zip through on initial impact. Also, the deer seem to react violently and run HARD.
These deer are dying quick...10-15 seconds....but I'm thinking about worst case....maybe a one lung hit...I would rather they not react so violently, and calmly hang around to die. I am really considering a strict 3:1 single bevel...any thoughts?
I've had a couple over the years when the arrow zipped right through them and they seemed to not react at all,just keep feeding and fell over. It's makes you feel good when that happens
doug77
Roger, cant go wrong with a single bevel. Definitely try it.
I think in my opinion its more noise than anything.with my deer shot with compounds they normaly ran 70 to 100 yds.with a perfect arrow,now with my recurve wisper quiet,i havent had one go over 50 yds..i shot them with 2,3,4 blade bhs..with the muzzy phantom 4 blade(just started using them)the deer reacted instantly to the hit and went 40 yds..snuffer 3 blade all deer shot with these deer didnt react as much as the 4 blade,and my 2 blades they didnt react as much as any head ive used.the 2 deer shot with 2 blades never went over 30 yds...pick your poison,put it where it counts and they all work well
Neat thread! I am just watchin' this one. Have killed several animals with 3 blades and a few with two blades. Same kind of experiences as have been written. Good thread!
I use a 3 blade and have had this happen a few times on hogs. The ones that acted like this did feel the hit, they would react to the hit with spinning around and looking as to see what other hog was messing with them, seeing nothing they would go back to feeding and rooting for a few seconds and then fall over dead
Roger, I don't see any reason why you aren't shooting thru your deer with those 3bl. at 51#'s?
Those trailmakers should be perfect medicine to shoot deer with your set-up.
#40, then maybe, but #51...what kind of arrow weight?
I myself would still absolutely take cutting more than tissue, than hoping, by shooting a narrow 2bl, that a deer wont react violently.
You just can't count on the non-reaction thing....as you can see by this thread....it simply doesn't happen very often.
I shot 2blades for 15yrs, Zwickey Deltas and Eskimos....shot a ton of deer and never once had one just stand and fall over....never even had one just walk away on a good hit.
Your "worse case"??? Especially with a one lung hit I want to cut as much of that one lung as possible!
I shot a few with those 2bls.over the years, one lungers...they went a long way!
No doubt in my mind if I'd used what I use now, they would have never made it as far as they did. Experience since using 3bls. has proven it to me.
There's simply no guarantee they'll just stand and take it and not run off...
Excellent thread....
I think there are several things which play to the deer's reaction to the "shot". All have been mentioned already... Here they are
Sharp BH
Quiet Bow
Deer at ease
soft tissue impact
2 blade/three blade BH
Complete pass through
I have looked back through my journal for the past 8 years and have found that of the deer taken during that time (11) 9 of them have gone less than 30 yards after the shot and 8 of those have just walked off a bit (less than 20 yds) and expired. Thes animals were all taken with two blade BH's that were very sharp, shot from bows in the 44-51 LB draw weight both LB and RC. All shots were 20 yds or under.
In two kills the deer were alert and a bit nervous. Both of those bucks went more than 30 yds after the shot. One went 60 yds full tilt and the other between 40 and 50 because he got caught up in a deadfall tree top. In both of these cases I did not get a complete pass through (arrow out of deer) but did get holes on both sides with arrow still in deer.
I suspect that this does happen more frequently with relaxed deer and all the specifics listed above. For those hunting in more pressured areas this may not be the norm.
Bill, those Wayne Co. deer may just really like you and feel comfortable around you.. LOL.. At least that ole girl did. Good question.
I've had it happen several times with 2 blade eskimos and once with a snuffer. Quiet longbow. Those shots were always side to side and at least a few inches behind the shoulder. The deer don't do anything, no break in the rhythm of their walk, no reaction what so ever. Walk themselves into the ground or stumble to the side like a drunk person trying to get their balance. It's never happened on a heart shot or a shot that angles between the front legs. I really like that shot of "slipping" the arrow through the deer. Like falling asleep on the hoof. Very peaceful way to put down an animal.
I shot a doe with a TUFF HEAD the other day, and had the same reaction. The deer was with another doe and a small buck. All three deer just stood at the shot, and then the doe I hit walked a few feet away and laid down. The other deer stayed for several minutes after the hit deer died. The arrow went between ribs and stuck in the ground.
I've had several deer react the same way with similar hits. The ones that run the hardest are with solid bone hits, like when the arrow hits the far leg on exit.
Good thread, I've shot 2 blades most of my life (although some did have inserts/bleeders). My first bowkilled whitetail, circa 1970, was taken at about 15 yds, with a bear razor head through the base of the neck. Penetration was complete and the deer just reached up and grabbed another apple. This stunned a 16 yr old, who couldn't believe what he was seeing. The deer chewed a few bites took 4 steps and fell dead. I have had a few more not react to the shot, including a pretty decent black bear and an antelope, over the past 40 years. I remember them all, but that first memory is still special. Keep 'em scary sharp. DK
QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
Roger, I don't see any reason why you aren't shooting thru your deer with those 3bl. at 51#'s?
Those trailmakers should be perfect medicine to shoot deer with your set-up.
#40, then maybe, but #51...what kind of arrow weight?
I myself would still absolutely take cutting more than tissue, than hoping, by shooting a narrow 2bl, that a deer wont react violently.
You just can't count on the non-reaction thing....as you can see by this thread....it simply doesn't happen very often.
I shot 2blades for 15yrs, Zwickey Deltas and Eskimos....shot a ton of deer and never once had one just stand and fall over....never even had one just walk away on a good hit.
Your "worse case"??? Especially with a one lung hit I want to cut as much of that one lung as possible!
I shot a few with those 2bls.over the years, one lungers...they went a long way!
No doubt in my mind if I'd used what I use now, they would have never made it as far as they did. Experience since using 3bls. has proven it to me.
There's simply no guarantee they'll just stand and take it and not run off...
I may be over thinking it...ground kills have been pass throughs, out of a tree have not been.
My journal(s) (not vey complete) show 31 traditional bow deer kills and 1 caribou. Bow weights were 65# (all pass throughs)57# (mostly pass through) and 51# (pass throughs have all been 15-20 yards after the shot, meaning the arrow worked it's way out the other side). Of all those kills, I only recall ONE deer just standing there and falling over. Yet it seems like it happens to other guys all the time? If a narrow 2 blade head makes that happen more regularly, I might change heads.
From this thread, what makes the most sense to me, is that the broadhead never hits bone so they don't realize they are shot. I am ALWAYS aiming for that off-side shoulder area, so I am always slowing my arrow down, and hitting bone.....I think... :dunno:
Good conversation though....it's not just about a clean kill, it's the CLEANEST POSSIBLE kill.
I think one of the Ashby reports talked about how much more spooked game is without a pass through.I found that interesting because a bunch of local bowhunters were recently discussing passthroughs and agreed (their best scientific seat of the pants observations).
Shorter trails to downed game the better!
o.k. I'll throw my hat in the ring. I have not had much in the way of blood trails with 2 blade heads. There are several of us that are "on call" to help with tracking and dragging and the same group of us have bear/caribou hunted together. I have helped track over 20 black bears, 3 were hit with 2 blades- (none of these bears were mine.)
Bear #1 was heart shot with a 160 gr. grizzly....complete pass thru. A little hair at the site of the hit and NO BLOOD until we found the bear. Only 40 yards from site of the hit. Thick Canadian bush. 65# longbow, 700 gr. wood arrow.
Bear #2 was a double lung complete pass thru. Hair at the site of the hit, intermittent blood on the 80 yard (+/-) and a lot of blood when we found the bear. 2 blade dbl. bevel. 65# compound, 450 grain arrow.
Bear #3 was what we believed to be a single lung/liver hit. Complete pass thru. Spotty blood trail. Brought in a tracking dog. Bear was not recovered. 2 blade double bevel. 550 gr. arrow, 70# longbow.
I have killed a few deer with 2 blade heads. 3 that come to mind are- (these were all my hits)
Deer #1 8 point IL whitetail, double lung 1/4 away. Complete pass thru. Found NO BLOOD until we were within 10-15 feet of the deer. Followed scuff marks and overturned leaves for 2 hours. Deer had made it 75-80 yards. 2 blade dbl. bevel
Deer #2 mature doe broadside. Appeared to be a double lung shot, complete pass thru. Blood on arrow fletching indicated "lung blood". Minimal blood for the first 30 yards. Deer was not recovered. 2 blade single bevel. I did say "appeared to be dbl. lung". I must have only got 1 lung or we would've found the deer.
Deer #3 mature doe feeding on acorns. Broadside dbl. lung. She jumped a bit at the shot, went back to feeding and dropped over dead in a few seconds. No blood trail needed!. 2 blade dbl. bevel
The last 8 animal I have killed were all taken with 600+ grain arrows and 3 blades heads. Bows ranging from 48-55#@28" and I draw 28". All have been complete pass thrus.
6 whitetail deer, all broadside or slight 1/4 away. 5 dropped within my sight, 2 went less than 20 yards. 1 doe made it about 50 yards and then died and slid down a steep ridge another 50 yards.
2 bull caribou both died within sight. One made it 30 yards the other around 75 yards.
I guess what this means is "it depends". I do know that as I have matured as a bowhunter I am much, much more selective with my shots and I am a fanatic about sharp and I mean SHARP broadheads. If I pull an arrow from my quiver in the morning, I pull a different arrow out in the afternoon and I touch both of them up before I go back out again. That may not be necessary, but it gives me peace of mind!
I am not passing judgement on any type/brand of broadhead, just sharing what some of my experiences have been. That being said, I have pondered trying the Simmons heads from the results I have seen on this site. I have also bought 6-250 grain VPA Penetrator 2 blades to use on the upcoming VPA Hog Hunt....at least I might use them. Those Terminators have sure done a nice job for me so far!
Mike
I had the same thing Terry described. Shot a Five point with a Magnus Stinger four blade, he kicked his legs took one jump looked around and went back to eating acorns.
QuoteOriginally posted by JoeM:
I had the same thing Terry described. Shot a Five point with a Magnus Stinger four blade, he kicked his legs took one jump looked around and went back to eating acorns.
Yep....looks like someone missed my post....it happens also with 4 blades...had it happen many times.....so, its not just exclusive to 2 blades.
I also agree with Curt on the 51 #s....but I don't know the arrow weight or draw length.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
QuoteOriginally posted by JoeM:
I had the same thing Terry described. Shot a Five point with a Magnus Stinger four blade, he kicked his legs took one jump looked around and went back to eating acorns.
Yep....looks like someone missed my post....it happens also with 4 blades...had it happen many times.....so, its not just exclusive to 2 blades.
I also agree with Curt on the 51 #s....but I don't know the arrow weight or draw length. [/b]
I got a chuckle out of the acorn similarities :thumbsup:
Since I have been shooting grizzlys every deer I have shot has died within sight. Most of them only jumped at the sound of the string ran 15-20 yrds and then turned as if to see what made that noise and then start to walk off only to drop dead a few steps latter. On a couple of those deer, I actually split a rib. I firmly believe that a super sharp two blade is the reason for that behavior.
Gilbert
I think Dnovo hit it early on. Depends more what the broadhead hits than the shape; but the shape may determine what it hits. I put an arrow sporting a single blade (two edge) through a small buck and he just flinched a bit but it may well have been from the bow noise or sound of the arrow hitting the ground beyond him. Went between ribs coming and going. He kept walking (I would have taken a second shot if he'd presented one) and eventually teetered over.
Often they kick their hind hooves out when struck - but I imagine if you walked up undetected and poked them with your finger they'd do the same. They know something touched them, and they can see ahead and to the sides so that leaves one direction to kick at to escape. If you evolved in the prey role along with coyotes or cougars you'd do the same, I'm sure.
whats the weather like too,,, I wondered about this myself but I added in what if the broadhead was freezing cold and then what if it was warm,,, do they notice that???
you folks that hunt warm and freezing climates for the same species, do you notice a difference?
Nah. My bow's so fast the broadhead is warmed up by the air friction. :D
I guess it could be a factor. Most nerves are near the skin, though, and the blood warms up a broadhead pretty quickly.
The cold air rushing in on a collapsed lung might be a factor as well. Be a tough one to test (but a great campfire topic!)
intresting stuff..... :campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by JoeM:
I got a chuckle out of the acorn similarities :thumbsup:
Yeah...I was amazed....that deer did flinch, then paused and looked around, and right back to feeding. I had one other one jump and also took a few steps, looked around and went back to feeding and fell over.
I've also had a couple do the o'l double bound n trot to stop and stop and look around and get weak knees and go down...
I've also had a few do the o'l double bound n trot to stop and stop and look around and start picking their way around in a simi circle trying to get down wind and get weak in the knees and go down...
Most of them did the o'l double bound n trott to stop and stop and look around and decide to leave by walking off in the direction they bounded and get weak in the knees and go down...
All with Zwickey Delta 4 blades.
I'm thinking it's a hit bone vs not thing, both penetration and bolting.
By the way, my arrows are 640 grains.
I have some older Grizzly heads, I think I'm going to use them for the rest of the season and see what happens.
All of this is speculative....i just wish the "not-bolting" thing was something we were able to duplicate every time.
I hear ya Roger....and I would suspect that any animal shot that the arrow did not completely pass through cleanly would have a fright n flight outcome.
Interesting how some folks don't want to agree just to dissagree. Some folks sure have an obvious pattern of doing so, and against the same people over and over. So obvious its like some sort of weird stalking type of obsession. I wonder how many deer they've really killed? I bet a lot less than they lead you to believe.
I had this happen to me this year twice. Shot two does, didn't hit any ribs and they jsut walked off like nothing happened. Seconds later, they tipped over. I think like mentioned if you don't hit bone there's no shock factor.
Yeah Charles....I hear ya....it does get old...and most are much more transparent than they realize. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
This thread has been very interesting and does reveal a lot. It shows that there is no hard and fast way or results. It shows that you can never predict animal behavior too many scenarios and varibles.
I think most people are just posting what they have experienced. Thats all I did. Not sure why that would be considered "transparent" :confused:
Gilbert