Trad Gang

I was on a bear hunt afew years back. I was so excited going to Canada for the first time. It was very special to me and very new.
Well after meeting the guide and getting to camp I got to meet the other guys that I would be sharing camp with for a week. We all BS'ed and had a good time. Until we broke out the bows... There was one guy there that you just could tell wasn't very good with his bow. He said he had been shooting for afew years. But you could just tell that he hadn't been shooting long. Kind of reminded me of my 6 yr old putting an arrow on her string. Then we got down to shooting.. I ain't even near the best shot in the world but this guy had about a 3 foot shot group @ 15 yards...  He finally gut shot a bear afew days later. I just new that it was going to happen.
What do you guys think I should have done?? Should I have spoken up or kept my mouth shut like I did?? I mean on one side he paid his money.. But on the other I think everyone else in camp knew he shouldn't be hunting with that recurve... Was it unethical for me to be quiet??? It has bothered me everytime I think about it...

That's a tough one.  You don't wanna tell the man he's a lousy shot, that won't go over well.  

And you don't wanna just let him do poorly and injure animals.  I would think the safest thing to do is offer suggestions and help him shoot better?  Perhaps he had some flaw in his form making him shoot poorly.  I'm new and I had a couple of days of great progress when I made breakthroughs in one way or another, perhaps you could cause one!

Perhaps consult the guide and have him arrange some sort of accuracy test or something.

However the bottom line is that its his choice and decision to shoot, right or wrong and not yours to make.  Hopefully he felt rotten about gut shooting a bear and it inspired him to work harder at learning to shoot....or give up hunting with trad gear.

I think you did the right thing, paddle your boat and let him paddle his.

Well, that's tough to say. I think I would have talked to the guide first about your concerns. A quality guide isn't going to let just anyone go out start flinging arrows. After all, he's the one that's going to have to go in after a wounded bear. If the guide saw that guy shoot and let him go anyway, well that's foolish in my mind.

If the guide refused to say anything, I think I'd find a way to give the fellow a little coaching. If he was resistant to that, well, that's all you can do.

Unfortunately, the world is full of people that won't take the time to become proficient enough to hunt. And it's not just traditional archers. I've got family members that are like that. It's incredibly frustrating to have them ignore advice and offers to help them shoot better and then listen to how they "got a shot off" or "I hit him but we didn't find him." All we can do is diplomatically educate them.

I'm in the lane where I'm trying to mind my owm business! BUT if I see something that is cruelty waiting to happen I'll speak my mouth(so to speak)

I guess in that circumstance you where I would have talked to the outfitter!
If it eas bad form I would have tried to help him out.

We will all make some mistakes in the woods sooner or later, but if you dont have the gift of seeing that your shooting is really bad and might with almost certanty make wounding, someone must step up and give you the signals...


That said I really understand that you had problems telling it loud.
In the end it should have been the outfitter that should have stopped him!

Hard to say as you cannot judge everything from a target session. If he was hunting with other people and there was a real issue with his shooting then it would be up to them to step up. They would be in a better position to know if there was a problem and how to deal with it.

He was legal so that makes it hard. Though I won't hunt w/some guys because of what I perceive is less than ethical/justifiable, doesn't mean they won't hunt. Lead by example. Otherwise you;ll make a hard headed enemy.

OMT, no guarantees. Experience doesn't mean every shot is perfect. It does lessen the chances of crippling or losing animals however.

Did you offer to help him shoot better? Everyone needs a coach, even Tiger Woods, so approaching him from this perspective might have helped him tighten his groups and you would have felt better about trying to do something about the situation. Asking him something like; "If you like I might be able to help you improve your shooting by showing you some techniques I have learned over the years.". Maybe the guy was too embarrassed to ask for help.   :dunno:

three foot groups at 15 yards?

looks like a newbie when fitting an arrow to the bow string?

without a doubt, if i witnessed a bowhunter at camp shoot that poorly, i'd have a serious conversation with that person about heading out to hunt.  that person can do whatever they want, but at least i would have said what needed to be said.

and what about the guide/outfitter?  should they not care about the hunting abilities of their clients?  guess not, in this case ....

Some guys just can't shoot well on targets in front of others. You did the right thing. Just enjoy your hunt.

I hope thats the case with most people because I personally have seen the worse trad shooters on a 3D course who actually hunt but almost can't even make a lung hit on a Rinehart standing deer.

I wish my state would bring in the accuracy test for all bowhunters because its that bad!

I can't say its more so trad  than wheels but it comes down to people do not know how to tune and/or set-up a bow, they don't practice, they won't admit they are overbowed, or even with compound shooters some of those guys don't have a clue on picking the correct yardages on real animals (where you can't always reach their range finders) honestly for kicks everytime you meet up with other bowhunters ask to check out their arrows and see how many have dull broadheads,,, I knew a guy with a compound that when he shot deer there would be NO blood on the ground because it was like they where getting stuck with a field ppoint his thunderheads where so OLD and DULL.

I guess I keep my mind shut because who knows maybe the guys having a bad day but I judge myself and thats it.  

when I hunted with Ray Hammond he wanted to see me shoot to make sure I knew how to hit a boar and that was cool.

My gut leans with Rob #99.

My personal experience would tend to shade that a bit. About the time "righteous indignation" rears it's head and lures ME into sharing my perceptions, it turns out I'M the one who goes and muffs something I shouldn't!

They tell us that what we say we'd do in a tough situation is often not what we actually do when "stuff happens".

I HOPE I'd have quietly taken the outfitter aside and asked if he had a stand at 6 yrds for this guy cause there's going to be a problem out there!

But then SC, hindisight as they say, is always 20-20!  At the time, I hope I'd have done something... but regardless, the better question might be, "What would you do NOW?" if you were again in a similar situation?

QuoteOriginally posted by Tajue17:
... when I hunted with Ray Hammond he wanted to see me shoot to make sure I knew how to hit a boar and that was cool.

now that just makes good common sense and validates the hunt for both the hunter and hunted ... and the outfitter/guide.

I usually have to stick my foot in my mouth.

3' at 15 yards, maybe he had a medical issue!

I don't feel it is my place to tell a guy who has paid his money and traveled maybe some distance that he needs to just go home or has no business hunting.  That call is the outfitter's but it would be OK in my mind to tactfully bring it to his attention.  Tough spot to be in for sure when you want the most ethical thing to be done. The farthest I would go is to privately share with the outfitter what I had seen and leave the next call to him.

The outfitter is in a tough position too.  In most cases, the outfitter doesn't even meet the clients until they've taken time off from work and spend a chunk of change in travel costs.  Personally, I might have tried to help the guy out to improve his shooting the best I could. Maybe have a discrete conversation with the outfitter to give this guy some special attention by putting him in places where he is only likely to get less than 10 yard slam dunk shots or none at all (heavy brush area etc); not easy with bear though.  The problem with accuracy tests is they are pretty easy to pass with a sight because they are almost always given at a fixed distance.

I'm with Dave Mitchell on this one. Guides and outfitters have something to say about  how their clients are prepared for a hunt.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Tajue17:
... when I hunted with Ray Hammond he wanted to see me shoot to make sure I knew how to hit a boar and that was cool.

now that just makes good common sense and validates the hunt for both the hunter and hunted ... and the outfitter/guide. [/b]

X2

Ethics not only encompass the necessity of us as bowhunters to do the right thing but to be watchful that others are doing the right thing. Turning a blind eye is never the answer. Going about things humbly is.

I think you would all agree that if someone was taking deer illegally you would say something. How is this really different. Someone is unprepared to hunt and is going to wound an animal. That is unethical. Dealing with that in a gentle way is very important but it must be dealt with. In this case the guide should have been notified. How he dealt with it would have determined for me whether that guide was high quality or not and would have ultimately determined whether I would use them or recommend them in the future.

I know that we all can make a bad shot, and I hope that it never happens, but to knowingly enter into a situation where that is not only a probability but a strong possibility is just not safe.

--End rant...

Blessings all.

Every outfitted hunt I've been on has had a practice butt to warm up on.  The guides would hang around and observe the proficiency of the clients.  I've never had a person shoot 3 ft groups but have seen poor shots.  Those guys get put in close range stands and get schooled on shot placement.

On the other hand, I had a buddy when I first started bowhunting that was a very bad shot on targets.  But he shot and killed a bunch of game with one shot kills everytime.

If this guy had ten ringed the bear, would there be a thread here?  How many other unrecovered bears were there by the "good shots"?

Mike

QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Every outfitted hunt I've been on has had a practice butt to warm up on.  The guides would hang around and observe the proficiency of the clients.  I've never had a person shoot 3 ft groups but have seen poor shots.  Those guys get put in close range stands and get schooled on shot placement.

On the other hand, I had a buddy when I first started bowhunting that was a very bad shot on targets.  But he shot and killed a bunch of game with one shot kills everytime.

If this guy had ten ringed the bear, would there be a thread here?  How many other unrecovered bears were there by the "good shots"?

Mike

Yep.........

I won't criticize your decision regarding this fellow's poor warm-up shooting.   I would have shot better groups beside his and then offered like a few have written above, "I've been instructing folks in archery a long time.  If you aren't satisfied with your groups I see a couple things I could help you with."

If he accepts then let the coaching begin.  If he says he'll be ok without the help, you wouldn't fix anything by commenting upon his personal hunting ethic.

Poor shots seldom make good hits on game. Great shots sometimes make poor hits on game.

If I were the outfitter of someone like this I'd put him in a stand where NO game will show up or where the only shots possible are point blank. To heck with repeat business.

I have had guides give proficiency tests-generally take the form of "let's shoot BH at that 3D target over there". I'm in favor of that. If I were running a hunting business that's what I'd do.
But to answer the question presented here I'd have kept my mouth shut and minded my own shooting.

Hunting is such a personal endeavor. You have people from all walks of life that may participate in the sport. With that you will have different stages of growth from beginner to experienced. You will also have casual hunters who may not even think of the hunt till the first frost. Then you have the guy like me and a lot of you. For us the season never ends. Having guided you see this often and this is not only bow hunters it is rifle hunters as well. The stories are never ending on the things that happen. But the one thing that is for certain no matter what we all have the right to pick up a weapon and by a license and go hunting.


 I guided a nice guy who was in great shape and could keep up in the hills going after elk. He shot a compound and shot in front of everyone before heading in the back country. His shooting skill where fair. As we hunted I could tell he did not have many animals under his belt and was some what new to bowhunting. He missed two elk one morning which did not surprise me. Back at camp I saw him slip of with his bow. I waited a little bit then walked over. I found him adjusting sights which bothered me a little but the thing that happened next really bothered me. After he shot and we retrieved his arrows I  found an arrow with a broad head missing. So I started to dig for it and found it. As I inspected it I saw no epoxy or hot melt on the insert. I said to him the shop that put your arrows together never epoxied your inserts in. He informed me they where. I said no there is nothing on this insert. He said I built the arrows and used fletching cement to glue them in. By the way these are aluminum arrows. I said to him that will never hold you need hot melt or epoxy. He then became a little upset and informed me he found it to work good enough from his experience. I stoped there I had nothing to fix his arrows with any way and if I pushed there was going to be a problem. He never connected he missed everything he shot at and it was at least 4 elk he missed. But if he did and say he hit rib even I have no doubt that arrow would come flying back with the broad head stuck in him.


 With that being said what do you do? The only thing is education. I can not give some one experience that comes with years in the field. But I can give them solid facts that can shorten there learning curve. I know for a fact that if I have 5 hunters in a camp and I have a outline of a elk on paper. If I then ask them to draw the bone structure of the front leg and shoulder. Then add heart lungs and liver just roughly. They more than likely will all fail. But if after they fail and I pull out my anatomy book go over it with them and have them draw it again they will remember it the rest of their lives. This is some thing that takes 15 minutes and should be mandatory but I guarantee most don't know.


So what can we do? We need to pass are knowledge on to other hunters. We all have to be active. I don't want to start a big mud slinging thing here. But if you are to the point where your level in the sport has brought you to chipping your own heads and building your own bows that's great. But we need to realize that not every one can do that. Maybe a guy that will be to that point down the road should be shooting a carbon or aluminum arrow that they did not build themselves. Maybe an emphases on good form and shooting habits should be in order with out being looked down upon. Some people just don't need a variable of a wood arrow in there program in the beginning. The should not feel inferior or think they are cheating. We all start some where. So help out who ever you can and hopefully we will see less of these problems.  

Scott Teaschner

I'm not gonna say what you should have done.  What's done is done.  It appears to me though you are bothered by your lack of action.  Not calling you out, please understand.  This happened years ago though and it still bothers you?  

I witnessed a hunter kill a buck before a doe on public land.  Public land rules stated  that you needed to kill a doe first.  I reported the guy to the DNR.  I felt bad at first, like a snitch.  But looking back on it I know I did the right thing.

It's my belief that one of the biggest problems with men, and society as a whole, in todays age is that we're too passive.  In-action is killing us.

I'm not advocating being a bully or a hot head.  But with some tact and intestinal fortitude we should be standing up for what we feel is right.

-Jeremy  :coffee:

Well said Scott well said. Proud of all you guys here concerned to do the right thing. Didn't know so many felt the same as I. Many of you know from my PM's & e-mails my sincere take on ethical hunting. It's a near mission of which I must be careful not to alienate but to instill sound ethical principles.

MOF, I thought that is exactly what TG was all about. Do your best, offer what constructive criticism is warranted (sans attitude), & leave it better than you found it. Nossir, I'm no expert. Have a long way to go. Good stuff!

Hey Scott,

i have no idea what you are talking about the need for epoxy on inserts. I have taken at least a dozen Roosevelt elk using hot melt glue on my inserts with aluminum shafts.... i actually prefer using hot melt glue so i can rotate my broadheads.

Granted.... Fletch tite would be a poor choice. but there is nothing wrong with using a good hot melt glue on inserts for hunting. I've taken at least 40 big game animals including wild boars with aluminum shafts, and have never lost a single broadhead unless you shoot a rock after its passed through.

When you go to an outfitter to hunt it's the guides responsibility, not yours to say something. In most cases they would probably send a rifle back up for this guy. a lot of outfits use a rifle back up with bear and moose for all archery hunters, and even rifle hunters.

These guides have seen it all. it has nothing to do with ethics, it has to do with dollars and cents to them.... i think if i was a guide and saw that kind of shooting I'd tell the customer that if he gut shot a bear with that set up, its going to cost him double to track it and dispatch it...... a wounded bear is a very dangerous animal.

i couldn't have kept my mouth shut if i would have been there. i'd have told the the guide to send a back up for this schmuck and gave him a wide berth. At that point its a little bit late to be giving archery 101 lessons.    :rolleyes:  

The last outfitter i went to would not let us hunt boars without a rifle back up until we showed him how we could shoot our bows first, AND...secondly we hunted together and both of us carried high powered hand guns on our hip. Then he let us stalk our own boars....We both harvested our boars with a bow, but that 357 mag  was a big comfort a couple times. Those russian boars are nasty beasties....

Kirk

God gave me 2 ears and 1 mouth so I try to listen twice as much as I talk. I'd probably keep my mouth shut but it would be tough.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
These guides have seen it all. it has nothing to do with ethics, it has to do with dollars and cents to them....

Understand... AND this requires a certain responsibility from me if I am to act ethically, i.e. to avoid those that promote hunting in that way.  ;)   (I also understand that this is not entirely true for all that provide this service)

Blessings to all. A good discussion and lots of good comments and thoughts.

I was on the other end of this one this spring. My first sharpenable broadheads that I'd gone over and over and over on a stone. I went over to a friend's house, a guy who has been shooting trad since before the sun was invented, to shoot into his 3D targets. First thing he does is pull one of my arrows out and feels the broad head. Didn't say a word, but there was that bob of an eyebrow that if you pay close attention to things you can't help but notice and him holding a "sharpened" broadhead like it was a rock. Didn't say a word. I was embarrassed, but more than that, I got the message, and it sent me back to the TG search mode, videos, Murray Carter, a file, stones and strop. Next time he felt my hunting broadheads in September there wasn't a flicker of recognition. Complete poker face. Just verrrrrry carefully got his fingers off that Terminator and put the arrow back in my brand new Great Northern taking the time to carefully line up the blades to the slits. When you know you know but you don't always know when you don't. Sometimes we need help with that.

It wasn't comfortable getting the message but I'm glad I did when I did.

I say whisper. If he's listening he'll hear it. And if he's not, yelling won't do any good.

Delicate issue to be brought up carefully.  IMHO its the guides responsibility in this case, but a friendly hint from others may not be a bad idea. BUT, you NEVER know when comments can open a nasty can of worms. Lots of different people out there, you've gotta be ready for anything.

It seems like a good idea to bring it up with a pat on the back and some advice when you're alone with the guy.  Maybe suggest an aiming technique or something to get him through the hunt, advice on short shots, that type of thing.

Nothing good comes out of calling down someone who is having trouble in front of others.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
three foot groups at 15 yards?

looks like a newbie when fitting an arrow to the bow string?

without a doubt, if i witnessed a bowhunter at camp shoot that poorly, i'd have a serious conversation with that person about heading out to hunt.  that person can do whatever they want, but at least i would have said what needed to be said.

and what about the guide/outfitter?  should they not care about the hunting abilities of their clients?  guess not, in this case ....

I 100% totally agree Rob.

I'd probably just recommend that he puts a few more arrows on the string at once.

I usually speak my mind. I feel it's unethical too hunt big game if you shoot that poorly. I would have pulled him to the side and explained that to him and then tried to help him with his shooting.

I hate to see game wounded or suffer.

Maybe I would have tried to help him out somewhat. But he has every right that I do to be in woods as far I know.

Believing in a proficiency test in order to get licensed is a whole nother issue or debate.

Are you telling me 3 foot groups are not normal?

When bear hunting in New Brunswick, Canada back in the day, The outfitter invited us ALL to shoot at targets to "sharpen up" after a long drive.

He did'nt say that he "needed evidence" of our shooting abilities, but that's what he was doing.
And I totally understood it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kituwa:
Are you telling me 3 foot groups are not normal?

at 15 yards???  surely you jest, sir.   :D

3 feet @ 15 yards is not a 'group'...its not even a 'cluster'....well...you could call it s a cluster 'something' I guess..          

If I were in your shoes I would have kept my mouth shut.  I would have done the same as you.

Hah!

Kirk I feel you may have not completely read my post. If you would have you would have read the word HOT MELT. This was not to list every thing that does work just to show what does not work and an example on educating.


Paddy I like your whisper phrase I will have to remember that and also try to practice it more.


BeNoIt well said.

Yes it was a joke,though if you saw me shoot you might not think so,lol.

All good points.

I would lean toward offering help. It may have been his equipment, the setup was wrong to the point no one could shoot it. Were the arrows the problem, string height, nocking point, or was it his form? No one wants to see someone gut shoot and animal, or get mauled by a angry bear.

when you see a archer fumbling like a newbie when attempting to nock an arrow to string, you become suspicious that something is awry.  

then seeing said archer spray arrows at 15 yards pretty much sums up that this person should NOT be hunting at any distance - it sheds foul light on both trad bowhunting and other weapon type hunting, does a disservice to the person him/herself, is not at all good for the guide/outfitter, and is NOT the ethically righteous thing to do for the game we want to swiftly put down dead.  that gut shot bear being the case in point.  

this is NOT to shed a negative light on the poster!  who hasn't at one point or another in their lives made a mistake and not offered your opinions and help?  for starters, ME.  i try to learn from my mistakes.  to err is human, and i admit to my humanity on almost a daily basis.

a tactful and serious conversation with that newbie archer would be in order.  and if it didn't bear fruit, time to inform the guide/outfitter and let the chips fall where they may.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kituwa:
Are you telling me 3 foot groups are not normal?

:laughing:

One of the funniest things I've heard on this contraption in weeks.

But what was he shooting at, a barn?

But all that said, there was a thread somewhere this summer about qualifying tests on military bases. No sir. I'm not for that.

I didn't read all the commens, but to me it was not on you to tell him, if he was alowed, to hunt with is bow or not... That said I would of expected the guide to say something. At least see if the guy was able to do better at 12 yards, or 10 yards, and from there tell him that this was the distance he had to shoot period!

one more thing, I have a friend who own a bear hunting outfinting in Quebec, and she told me one day that after having bow hunters shoot pourly at games, they don't offer bow hunt anymore, so maybe saying something to tha guide like Gonzoso said would be a great thing to do!!

you did the right thing.  If any one had a dog in this fight it would have been the guides.  Just my opinion.

I jumped to the end and missed reading some comments.  Here we go back to proficiency testing.

You were shooting at 15 yards.  What if his limit is normally 10, or 8.  What if the baits were placed less than ten yards from the tree and that is what he was told ahead of time by the guide service.  

I have been on three guided hunts and they ALL were closer than 15 yard shots.  The first had his baits 6 yards from the base of the tree.  

There is the potential for a lot of misunderstandings here that we don't know about.

I am not condoning bad shooting,  but, hey, lets make the proficiency testing at 50 or 75 yards and if you can't shoot that far. . . tough.  Never mind that you normally won't shoot farther than 10 yards at a critter.

Do we really know all the facts ?
ChuckC

If I am a participant in the hunt I will focus on my hunt. If I am in any way running the hunt well that's another matter and the guy with the 3 foot group becomes my responsibility.
As a participant I don't need to or want to usurp the authority of the people running the hunt.

I would either have offered to help the guy out or kept my mouth shut depending on his personality. I was very lucky in that when I started hunting I had friend take me under his wing and really help me out. I'll always appreciate that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry Green:
3 feet @ 15 yards is not a 'group'...its not even a 'cluster'....well...you could call it s a cluster 'something' I guess..    :laughing:    :laughing: