I wonder with all the talk about treestand safety how many people are saved by their harness but then die of suspension trauma. Seems it would do no good to be caught by your harness and unable to get back to the stand and die this way. I bought a CDS harness because I hunt in the mountains by myself.
Deer & Deer Hunting did a research project many years ago on that very topic. If (?) memory serves me, you had 2-3 min in any type strap or chest harness...
Recent research, albeit provided as a handout by "Silent Glide" belt harness, at the H-burg PA Sport Show, reprints a University study that showed people in 5pt harnesses still only have about 5 min till damage occurs and less than 10 min till people pass out from lost circulation!
If you hit your head and are knocked out... it doesn't matter cause till you recover it might be too late.
If I were to fall and not be unconscious, using Rapid Rails, I'm pretty sure with the Climbing rope/safety belt around the tree, I could get to the steps to continue down...
Buddy uses the life line system and then screw in steps... I'm not sure impailed on one of them in a fall any "device" would make much difference.
Being elevated for fun in the wee dark and cold has risks.
Be careful out there... think twice, move once!
according to tma there has not been one reported incident of a hunter dieing of suspenssion truma i do know some harness come with a strap that can be used relieve the pressure
Here's an OSHA bulletin sent to me:
http://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib032404.html
You should have your safety line setup so you can't hang in the first place unless of course your platform fails but then you should be able to get back to your seat or steps if you have them.
I keep a small, sharp knife permanently attached to my SOP in a convenient location but out of the way, just in case...!
Well, I know of a close call. This happened to a hunting buddy of one of my friends who is a game warden. He climbed the tree, attached himself with his treeline to the tree and sat. The strap holding the treestand up broke suddenly and the stand was tumbling down. The guy was hanging in his harness on the tree and couldn't do nothing in his thick clothing. The guys carried a two way radio and he reached the game warden with it. Luck had it, that he was close and had his climbing treestand with him. He rescued him with his climber. If he would have not have radio contact he would have passed out and possibly died.When he rescued him he was in "pretty " bad shape already....
I think the CDS II is a very good system and needs minimal further improvemments. I got me one as well (same price as a vest system without rescue system) and I like it pretty good.
Especially when using a climber it can be a life saver. And it can reused 1 times for a full fall arrest.That is two full falls.
One of the keys to regaining a footing and being able to save yourself after a fall, is to place the strap around the tree at a height that will prevent you from falling below the level of your stand platform at your knee level. The tether between you and the tie-off point has to be the right length. This allows a person to turn themselves and regain the platform by grabbing it and placing their knees on it. This should also prevent impalement on steps. If the tether line is just starting to snug up when you are sitting on your stand seat, then that should be about right. If falling, you will gain less momentum over the shorter distance as well and therefore hopefully suffer less internal damage.
Just some pointers I've learned thru teaching the IBEP course and personal experience.....!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Arrowest:
One of the keys to regaining a footing and being able to save yourself after a fall, is to place the strap around the tree at a height that will prevent you from falling below the level of your stand platform at your knee level. The tether between you and the tie-off point has to be the right length. This allows a person to turn themselves and regain the platform by grabbing it and placing their knees on it. This should also prevent impalement on steps. If the tether line is just starting to snug up when you are sitting on your stand seat, then that should be about right. If falling, you will gain less momentum over the shorter distance as well and therefore hopefully suffer less internal damage.
Just some pointers I've learned thru teaching the IBEP course and personal experience.....!!!
That is exactly correct........BUT......what would happen if the strap or chain holding the treestand to the actual tree breaks and there is no base to even attempt to return to ???
One could only "hope" that the person that hung the stand put "something" into or around the tree that would allow you to reach it with your feet. I have seen quite a few treestands that were hung by other people that make it a REAL LONG step up onto the stand itself. I like to make the last step very close to the base of the stand for exactly that reason.
Winterhawk1960
Very good thread. This is certainly something to think about and have a plan beforehand in case a fall does happen.
i like to put up my stands to where i step down onto the platform. My ladder (or climbing sticks)is put up at an angle that (if i am conscious) i can reach easily if the stands platform fails.
Be safe out there! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I had a buddy in a ladder stand have it break and actually fall away from the tree. He called a buddy to come get him. I hunt in very remote mountain areas and feel good about having the CDS sytem. I even tested it out. Worth the money to me.
I think your overlooking the obvious. A well made harness will keep your carcass from coyotes and other predators. You have to look on the bright side.
I'm staying on the ground.
I have 2 tree stands and have not had an accident in the fews I've been hunting. After reading this though and all the thing's one should do I'm starting to think Grey Buffalo may be on to something... the ground.
-Jeremy :coffee:
In my rockclimbing days, we carried two loops of 7mm line in our pockets from which we could fashion prussic ascenders. If we found ourselves dangling in mid-air 20' below a cliff, we could laborously, but surely, work our way back up the rope to the edge of the cliff. It was easier to do using a rockclimbing harness, as we were facing the rope, but it should be possible to do this in a treestand harness if you can reach the rope behind you, and if it dangles far enough below you that you can work with it. If the rope dangled all the way down to the ground, you could use the same prussic ascenders to first ascend enough to loosen whatever was holding you to the main rope (probably another prussic knot using larger diameter rope), and then descend to the ground.
....one more reason too hunt off the ground !
I bought the Rescue One CDS this year and it is the only harness I'll use now. No worries now. I have practiced with it in my backyard and it works great. If I fall I'll just quickly lower myself to the ground.
Falls from treestands are not reported as hunting related accidents which is probably why the tma does not have record of a hunter dying from suspension trauma. There was a bowhunter here in Ottawa county that died from suspension trauma about six years ago. His climber broke. He was found hanging dead in his full body harness with his boots kicked off.
Had a friend who had a friends home made stand give out from about 15'. bad news. two broken legs spine issues and two years of rehab. Still not back to normal. Be careful guys.It happens.
I bought a climber, tried it a half dozen times in the yard, and I even shot from it.
But I have yet to take it out to hunt with. I hunt alone and it seems like a pain to haul it into the woods every day, set it up, climb the tree and then I read threads like this one!
I was gonna take it today but I had a nightmare of me falling out of a tree so I left it home:)
I'm still digging the ground for now!
I also purchased a Rescue One CDS this year. I think it is the best harness on the market today! IMO
I use a rock climbing harness and a prussic lifeline. If you fall you end up facing the tree and should be able to get onto your stand. I also set it up so that I can access my climbing sticks if the stand gives way. I figure that if it will help some guy climbing a mountain it will help me survive a fall of one or two feet.
JW
Ok Im not trying to put a damper on this but, in my opinion based on over 25yrs of emergency medical experiance, and mountainering experiance(High angle rope rescue instructor/ Assault climber USMC and death investigator for the Medical Examiners office)I doubt it .
I have to say that this seams like a extremely unlikely condition that would be sustained if you were hanging for a long period of time( greater than 12 hrs in my opinion) without the ability to even touch the tree.
The harnesses today are desingned so that if you fall it will keep you close to the truck and at worst the leg straps may constrict the Femoral arteries and that would cause damage to the legs and increase the cirrculation to the upper body(and you wouldnt pass out from that)But if you lift your knees that would releive the restriction on the arteries.
I have been in Harnesses doing training rescues hanging on the sides of buildings and cliffs for 3-4 hrs and never had any issues,our harnesses are not much different from the hunting style.
So I would not climb a tree with the fear of becomming unconcious and dying from your harness saving you from a fall. If you think smart and tether it corrrectly you should be able to regain you footings. Just my opinion based on my own experiences.
As I grow older I'm paying more attention to tree stand safety. Now days I favor tree rails and put them high enough so I can step down into the stand.
I also prefer limby trees.
As written above I set my harnass strap so I feel tension when sitting down. I can't lean over and touch the bottom of the stand.
In one of my stands I'm using a contraption called "Fall Guy". It is a black box with seatbelt strap inside. Once this box is in the tree, above the stand you take the strap down to the ground. A small string attaches to it so you can let it up the tree (auto winds like a seatbelt) and pull it down when you come back to hunt. I hook to this strap as I climb the stand. Then when I'm in the tree, before unhooking from fall guy I attach my harnass strap. You do have to keep feeding the strap as you climb the tree to keep it snug.
I'll have to admit, when hanging this system I had tree rails, haul rope, Fall Guy, lineman strap, and my harnass. At one point, in the stand I was pretty tangled up. I though, gee-whiz, a person could hang themselves with all this gear!
I love the view from elevated stands. I hope to always hunt from trees.
There are "relief straps" that are available now. You buy two, one for each foot to go into. They come in little pouches that attach to your harness. IF you fall, deploy these little foot holds, and alternate each foot for a few minutes. By pushing your foot down into the strap, you oush your body up and alleviate the pressure on your body from the harness and gravity.
I don't get it...I use the system everybody gets worked up over - 2 straps. One around my chest, one around the tree and a 9" connector strap. I have been using this same set-up for 30 years. The furthest I can fall is my butt on my seat.
I can't tip over, there is no way I can get below the platform, nor any way for me to dangle in any way shape or form. I've tried and tried...can't do it.
I even had the cloth material on my seat give way back in 2006. Startled me no doubt. But all that happened was my butt dropped 3" further from the play in the safety straps. I stood for the rest of the hunt and replaced all the seat material on all my stands.
I think I would take my chances with a harness and being able to get back to the tree or ladder than to hit the ground. BILL
I find it difficult to believe that I can't save myself. . ie get back into the treestand, onto steps, hug the tree and skootch down, or something. . unless I am badly hurt or unconcious.
I am not gonna just hang there and cry. All these things that are described are there to help you in case of an accident of this sort. Think ahead and use your abilities.
and yes. . . I have been suspended by a safety belt and harness, more times than I can recall.
Trad man. . you can tip over, you can break ribs (with the single strap) you can injure yourself from the fall itself, and if you don't strap yourself into the stand with little or no slack you will fall below the level of the stand.
ChuckC
Guys I hold an OSHA certification as a competent person and work at heights on a daily basis. I am a steel inspector. I wear fall arrest gear and have all sorts of different connecting gear for different situations. The same is true for my hunting gear.
Educating yourself about ways to prevent falls and the potential forces involved in the event of a fall is something everyone who hunts from an elevated stand should do.
First things first you should inspect all components of your system prior to placing into service each time it is needed. That includes the ABCs, anchorage, bodywear, and connecting devices. If you are unsure of something do not trust it and replace it.
Learn how to properly fit and don a harness. The leg straps should be worn around the thighs and not up at the crotch like I often see. This distributes forces to the largest bones in your body, the femurs, in the event of a fall. Have someone hoist you up in your harness and you'll see what I mean. It can be a real eye opener.
Next do everything you can to reduce or eliminate the possibility of a fall. Keeping yourself on as short a leash as possible while in the tree may at times prevent you from the possibility of falling off the platform, although it doesn't help if the platform gives way.
Next minimize free fall distance. The farther you free fall the greater the arresting force your body will see. When hunting I can't really visualize a situation where a free fall should be much greater than 12 inches. This as well as the design of the lanyard strap should keep the arresting forces low.
Rule number one in the event of a fall is don't hit the ground or any other object below. This is something you have to think about. If you experience a fall the attachment point between the harness and lanyard will will end up about even with the top of your head. In addition some or all of the tear outs on the lanyard strap will tear and its overall length will increase. When all this happens where will your feet be? Make some measurements of your gear and find out. You will come to find that your are much safer sky high in a tree than you are at intermediate heights getting into or out of the tree. Hmmmm.
In the event of a fall you need to have a rescue plan. If you hunt alone self rescue is the only option. Do yourself a favor and get hung in a controlled situation and practice your anticipated rescue plan. You may find in practice that things dont go as easily as you might have thought. Make adjustments if necessary.
Wow this all seems like work doesn't it? Just think though about all the time you put into scouting and hanging stands and checking arrow and bow specs and degree of weight forward etc.... This could save your life someday.
A case in point. I had a very real and dangerous situation occur last week on the return trip from bowhunting an island on the Susquehanna river. I rolled my kayak while wearing hunting gear and chest waders. Luckily I had practiced this situation during fair weather and the procedure for self rescue was almost automatic. I wound up with no lost gear, and was able to right myself and self rescue and just wound up getting a little wet and took a bruise to my pride as I had an audience to witness my debacle. I might note that some of the folks on shore were actually impressed with how quickly and calmly I recollected and continued to shore. Bang ego back in place.
Anyhow educate yourself and practice the worst scenario you can think of. It could save your life some day.
:thumbsup:
Trad man. . you can tip over, you can break ribs (with the single strap) you can injure yourself from the fall itself, and if you don't strap yourself into the stand with little or no slack you will fall below the level of the stand.
ChuckC [/QB][/QUOTE]
As I said in my post, the connecting strap is 9" in length. As such the farthest I can fall is 9" inches - to my seat. Dangling I can easly lift a leg and place it on the platform. As for tipping over, not only do basic physics say it can't happen but I have proved it can't happen. And as hard as I have tried I can't do it. 95+% of my body weight is below the strap. And if a 9" inch fall is going to break ribs....well then I have bigger problems and shouldn't be in a tree anyweays.
If the platform fails my climbing sticks are right there...with the top rung being positioned well above the platform to begin with.
When you look at harness design, most hunting products have very narrow leg straps compared to rock climbing,construction,or arborist harnesses with very wide leg straps. Climbers and arborists spend many hours suspended without problems,so why do we hunters want such narrow leg straps for a few ounces saved and a slight comfort increase? Are we not using the harness to protect from the fall and so then why risk suspension trauma with such designs? We need to re think design and use the best features of each industry to avoid these problems. Are we in the "something is better than nothing frame of mind"? Experts please chime in and thank you.
:dunno:
last year was my first year in a ladder 2 man stand im a big guy so i got the 2 man for just me and i sat in the middle lots of room and has the safty bar. i gun hunted from it last year. this spring i went up to check straps they were good to go i took a light weight bow with me just to give it a try and let me tell you i was not liking it with the bow. so i made a ground blind insted of using the stand with a bow just did not feel right up there with the bow better safe than well you know. maybe after a few more seasons in it ill take the bow up there but not this year. my buddys rip me about it just leanining in the tree. i told them if you want to use it go for it.just dont move it. i have donated a few climbers and lock ons to the farm through the years and they put them all over might end up donating the ladder stand also but for now it stays where its at just incase i do want to get up in it. i did use one lock on set it for a seat at just the right height to sit with my feet on the ground. they really busted on me for that one but it did make a nice tree seat. and just to get them i wore my harness it was funny good times with good buddys
See, user name!
Go for it dude. You did more than most by trying it out.
They don't sell those any more for a reason.
ChuckC
Stalkin. . I am no expert, but I think that the fall restraint design we use is purpose designed, and improving all the time based on input from users.
We do not normally suspend, we normally sit in the tree. The suspending part will likely never happen to most of us. When it does, I am guessing, based on experience, that the suspending time will be pretty short unless the person is very injured or unconsious or maybe if they "freak out".
I am not certain why you would not be able to get turned around and do some self saving while wearing a full body device, but as we have heard, there are occasional problems.
I suggest each of you see what it feels like to suspend, just off the ground. See what it takes to "save yourself". Have a buddy there to help if need be, or keep it so low you can for certain save yourself by simply standing up. Do it in your hunting gear.
Might open your eyes. Coming off the stand wearing the old belt systems sure opened mine. . wide.
ChuckC
I have been "Lucky" bowhunting for over 30 years without a fall. Used to do the Screw in steps, hang on stands, then migrated to a ladder stand.
Couple years ago I got a climber, and purchasede a vest type safety harness, that actually has a sling support seat for my rear end, along with the leg straps. I can't imagine falling from a tree, and I'd rather take my chances with a well dedesigned safety harness.
There has been some very good conversations on here that have made me think about taking this to the next level as far as descending the tree.
There is another option: Petzl GriGri 2
My son is a wilderness EMT, ski patrol @ Crested Butte, and spends the month of June on Mt McKinley doing high mountain snow/ice search & rescue during the climbing season. I'm 65 and have been hunting out of trees since the late seventies. But I know I'm no where as agile as my early days. Anyway Zach set me up with a GriGri Belay devise with assisted braking. I use my Seat of the Pants harness and replaced my long tether on the back of the harness with just a locking carabiner that is attached to the GriGri. The GriGri attaches to my ascending/descending line (11mm static climbing rope) that is attached above me in the stand down to the base of my tree.
The GriGri allows you to belay down your rope by using the brake lever above your head therefor it needs to be close to your back of your head so you can reach it. I assume this is very similar to how the Rescue One CDS belay system works. You can looked up GriGri on U-tube to get a better idea except most videos will show it used with a climbing harness in front of you rather than a tether behind you. The devise runs about $95 and can be used with climbing rope 8.5 to 11mm. Tippit
man if you would have seen the 'harness's we repelled out of helicopters with....I remember sitting on the line off one of the towers getting hollered at in training LOL. My legs didnt go numb....but my hips were killing me. A rope harness, aroudn your waste and around your groin on both legs. After 3 days I prayed I never saw a harness again.
Joking aside, if you have a step or two above your strap on stand, you SHOULD be able to get to one of them. Stepping up into a hang on stand isnt the greatest of moves.
I also have mine tied off high enough there is no falling down. Heck I fall asleep leaning foward half the time. The biggest concern I had was falling off on the off side of the stand (no steps)....if the stand is there, and my strap is long could make for an interesting climb back in. If the stand falls out, I would think you should be able to hit the steps....something a guy might want to practice with a couple buddies some time a foot or three off the ground.
makes ya wonder if you're really concerned having the climbing rope handy so you could strap back on the tree and coconut climb up or over to a step using just your boots....
Stopping a fall is only half of a solution.
Deployable Relief Steps, or Stirups should be on EVERY harness sold... but they're not.
Buy em, put em on, forget about em.
Miller Fall Protection makes them. Google search 'Miller Relief Step'... or you can get em on the bay. Cheap insurance.
Something else to keep in mind, especially using a climber. You have to be careful you don't get the strap or laynard under your neck. I know that sounds kind of dumb, but it's easy to do when climbing up the tree in a climber, or pulling up your bow, etc... I suppose the chances of your stand falling at the exact instance your strap is under your chin is gotta be a million to one....but.....you can't be to careful.