Hey Guys,
Since moving over to traditional archery/bowhunting 3 years ago I've been shooting my two Toelke Whip R/D longbows and loving them. Lately I've been getting kinda interested in shooting one of his Hill style D-bows.
What differences are there likely to be between the two shooting experiences?
Will shooting the D-bow adversely effect my shooting with the 2 R/D bows?
Is a Hill style bow more forgiving/accurate?
Any advice greatly appreciated!
Ross
Read the HH bug got me thread,they'll answer all your questions.
it has to be more about how a bow shoots for you instead of just the pretty wood. I have been a longbow shooter since 60s with some target stints with target recurves. If you try to force a longbow to shoot different than it was designed, you may end up fighting it. Different makers do some different things that allow for differing shooting styles. As was said by the maker of Sunset HIll bows his bows need to healed to get the bottom limb working, which is how I shoot as well. It is possible to change the bows and make them so they shoot real nice for three under as can be made by John McDonald of Big River bows. they can also be centered and tillered for a single contact higher wrist grip style. For the standard Hill tiller and design, although there are those that have their own take on them, I always suggest to start out studying the shooting styles of those that have the long time best record and experience with them first, as in John Schulz and Howard Hill. while they may be more forgiving of certain shooting errors, they can also create problems if they are not handled right. As far as hand shock, some thump harder than others. If you shoot them with a bone on bone straight arm you may feel more than you are expecting. If you allow the broken elbow the thump will lesson with experience. If your shooting style is more like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqjNKC72dA&feature=related to something more like Byron Fergusson they will work for you. If it is exactly like Byron Fergusson, get a Patriot they are really accurate, forgiving bows with a little more shape to the grip. There is nothing wrong with shooting a more straight up static recurve style, I just wonder why one that shoots that style would want to shoot a different bow than what works for that style. To fully take advantage of the Hill style, in my experience, one needs to adapt the Hill philosophy as a whole package. It may be different than what you are currently doing with your Tolke Whips, which can be consider something in between a full gripped recurve to a Hill style longbow with perhaps a bit of the best of both worlds in the design. It's all good, it is just a different set of choices.
I will echo what's been said. Hill bows are a a real joy to shoot if you have the temperment and ability to shoot them in the Hill style. The more you try and force your own style and methods on them the less tolerant they are of those methods and shooting forms.
So much in trad archery is subjective and driven by individual tastes and talents. If you are a recurve shooter and buy a Hill style bow and expect to be able to shoot it like your recurve you will probably be disappointed.
I can hold my Hill bow like my recurve and when I do its erratic and has pretty dramtic hand shock. When I hold it and shoot it in the Hill style the experience is totally different.
You don't wear dentures do you? if so you may want to stick with your Whips bro...
you may find out their is a shocking amount of difference. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
i once had a friend of mine tell me the best way to shoot a Hill style bow is using someone else's hand. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
My own Hill style bows in reality have very little more hand shock than most other bows, with fast flight strings it may be less than many recurves with B50 endless strings. I have had some thumpers in the past, funny thing is, a couple of those got more blood on them than most of my other bows. If you shoot one of those with locked out form of course it will kick you, if you allow your bent bow arm to absorb the shock, after a while your timing will improve and the shock will not go bone deep.
Learn to shoot one and you will have one of the most accurate bow made. They will put down game. They dont shock anymore than many recurves I shot. Hill and Hill style bow are all I want to shoot. Master the technique and you will have one of the best hunting bows made.
Cahaba knows what he is talking about. Shoot a nicely weighted wood shaft for best results. They are excellent shooting bows!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:
Hey Guys,
Since moving over to traditional archery/bowhunting 3 years ago I've been shooting my two Toelke Whip R/D longbows and loving them. Lately I've been getting kinda interested in shooting one of his Hill style D-bows.
What differences are there likely to be between the two shooting experiences?
yes, there are shooting differences 'tween hill-style longbows and any r/d type longbow. lots of how that will go for you will depend on your form and shooting style, the design of the hill-style longbow (they are NOT all the same!), the arrow and string used, the length of the bow as it's compared to your true draw length, and your mental outlook.
Will shooting the D-bow adversely effect my shooting with the 2 R/D bows?
absolutely not - unless you want it to.
Is a Hill style bow more forgiving/accurate?
absolutely not - unless you DO want it to.
Any advice greatly appreciated!
you must shoot one, or two, or as many as you can - there is no substitute for hand's-on, particularly with hill-style longbows. be particularly careful about the bow's length and true holding weight at your draw length.
Ross
As Mr. Maher says: We're just cooler.
Okay, that's tongue-in-cheek, so go easy.
Longtime Hill/style straight handle shooter. They suit my hunting style. Likely, the big trad majority shoot pistol/locator grips which are limiting to me. BL, personal preference. If ever I switch, it'll be a longer hybrid w/straight grip because it can shoot my heavier arrows faster at less draw weight.
Sounds to me like you just need a good excuse to buy another bow. Your friends here are helping w/center shot info above. Good luck & pix please.
The Hill style bow has a lot of history and nostalgia. Howard Hill more than anyone is responsible for it's continued popularity. If you're interested in a Hill bow you won't be satisfied until you try one. Any traditional bow is a good choice but shoot the style that excites you.
http://www.shrewbows.com/shrewhill.html
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Cornfield_Buck.jpg)
I shot a Hill bow some years ago and had some elbow issues shooting it. It had lots of hand shock. It may have been due to my form but I will stay with my R/D bows. Try one they may fit your needs everyone is different.
I didn't know there were cons to a Hill style bow. A pro is that it works faster and longer than Viagra increasing the testosterone in you. I love the straight handle as Buddy mentioned also.
If you like your Whip, Check out Dan's Super D. It is a very smooth drawing D bow without any shock or teeth rattling.
What I hate about bad weather is, I go online and start reading stuff that will ultimately lead me to spend money, instead of getting out in the woods!. Seriously, I appreciate this thread, because I've always wanted to try a Hill-style bow, and I've seen a lot of them attractively priced in the classifieds lately. Hope the tips/opinions keep flowing.
QuoteOriginally posted by LongStick64:
If you like your Whip, Check out Dan's Super D. It is a very smooth drawing D bow without any shock or teeth rattling.
is the Super D truly a hill-style (basically straight limbed), or is it a mild r/d? no info or full length pics listed on dan's site.
there is a WORLD of difference 'tween classic hill-style and mild r/d (d-braced) longbows!
:thumbsup:
Ross, I shoot both Toelke Whips and Super Ds. the latter a majority of the time. The only "transition" to them for me was to simply "heel" the low grip a bit more which is only slightly different than shooting the Whip which you know has a fairly low grip itself. I shoot 11 to 1 wood arrows out of my Super Ds, 11 1/2 to 1 through my Whips. At the shot the only perceptible difference with the Super D is a very slight and not unpleasant thump, more of a pulse actually in the bow hand and I have shot bows with handshock that ranged from noticeable to literally painful. There is an enjoyment to shooting them that is somewhat hard to describe and in addition though every bow Dan has made me has been quiet, the Super Ds are ridiculously so.
Rob, the Super D is practically straight limbed, if you set the unbraced bow on a flat surface "face" or belly up, the tips contact and the riser is 7/16" off the surface.
Rossco= there have been alot of good advice on here from some very good shooters. Like alot said it takes a little changing to shoot the style of bow. I had several r/d bows that shot well and bought a hill and struggles, noted by someone, I didn't adapt. I read somewhere where Mr. Hill said, "guys will spend hundreds on bows, but not a cent on learning how to shoot them right." So, I went to see Mr. Bob Wesley and learned what I was doing wrong, and yes, shooting the Hill bow is more of an overall philosophy. I heard great things about David Miller's shooting school too.
Guys,
Thanks for all the great advice! As always I'm cut but the laser sharp insight (i.e. I'm looking for an excuse to buy another bow). How true!!!
I'm currently shooting bows at 52lbs and 49 lbs at my draw (27 inch) and want to go a bit lighter with my next purchase. What is a good (light weight) whitetail setup for a Hill style bow?
Put one in your hands and shoot it. Have an experienced Hill shooter with you to offer pointers.
I have an old Bingham project bow I got three decades ago. It has a longer handle but the handle is slimmer than a true Hill. I took it to an archery shop to get some arrows for it and as soon as the shop guy saw it he said I needed another bow. Not sure why he said this but he gave me three arrows to shoot. all with the same shaft spine but different tips and lengths. (carbon) At his shop range I put two of them side by side and the third was about 2" from the others. It was only about 10 yards but hitting his 5" orange dot with that group he never said anything else about me needing another bow.
If you don't hold it right it'll vibrate your teeth. If you don't have a reasonably clean release then groups are spread.
To echo the comments already stated, shoot what you want but try before you buy if possible. BUT, have that experienced Hill shooter nearby to help you. My experience has been trial and error which, for this style shooting and bow, is not advisable.
I enjoy mine more and more. I will one day own a true Hill style.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/Equismith/PICT1307.jpg)
I imagine everyone is different but when shooting about 13 years, my HH bows, Wesley special or Redman I never had any hand shock that I noticed.
I can't offer any better advice or insight than what has already been posted. I'll just chime in with my opinion that as an archer, you should treat yourself to the HH experience. If you give it an honest effort with a bow that is not too heavy for you, I think you'll like what you find out :) If not, you probably won't have a difficult time finding one of us HH fans to give that bow a new loving home :)
I just recently acquired a new HH Tembo 70" 50#@30.
I wasnt really sure what to expect when I first shot it. I heard many talk of the tremendous amount of vibration "Tooth rattling" that they get during the shot.
I havent experienced any of this. All I get upon release is actually a quite pleasant little thump letting me know the arrow is on it's way.
This style of bow should not be gripped with a high wrist"It doesnt like it". If high wrist is your style this bow may not be for you.
The pro's of this bow for me is that I find it the most forgiving bow that I have shot to date. I dont claim to be some kind of expert and havent been shooting trad all that long, but for me this bow plain shoots!!
Red Tailed Hawk,
I agree the "hand shock" that many describe has been a mystery to me. All I feel is that "pleasant little thump" that I find so reassuring. Well, I'm heading out right now with a friend of mine's homage to HH. Gonna go try to find some agreeable pigs or does on public land not far from the house. I'll be using my Sarrels Yukon with cedar arrows that Jason Ekin made for me pointed with HH broadheads. Talk at you all later :)
I am a dyed in the wool Hill Shooter. No Doubt.
Do I own bows that are easier to shoot, faster, more forgiving? Yep.
But, I love my Hills. Like it was said earlier, don't need Testosterone if you shoot a Hill. Just feels manly.
Oh, and boo hoo about the hand shock. Once you figure out how to hold a Hill, you will never have hand shock, and never look back.
Do yourself a favor. Buy a used one from the classifieds. They are always in demand. If you don't like it, you can easily re-sell it.
My 2 cents.
Matt
I think on the hand shock issue that arrow weight plays an important role. I shoot way over 10 GPP and have no problem with hand shock. I shoot 675 grain arrows from a 42# and 50#. They just happen to match up in both bows. Sometimes the Good Luck Fairy sits on your shoulder!
If you are shooting a 50# hill with 400 grain arrows it will probably show up.
The only con I can think of with any Hills or Hill style bows that I have shot is draw weights.
I have found if I try to shoot a bow that is too low in draw weight my arrow release isn't as clean as with the proper draw weight for me.
A little over a year ago I was shooting bows in the low 40's and as I progressed up in weight I found my release getting better and therefore my accuracy increased.
Now I shoot bows between 52# and 57#,
I think my ideal is around 54@28.
My two cents worth.
God bless,Mudd
God bless,Mudd
When I first tried a Hill bow I wasn't too impressed. I was all over the place.
Then one night I was watching Fred Asbell's "Instinctive Shooting" video and there's a segment where he talks about the differences in shooting a longbow and recurve. He picks up a Hill style bow and shows you how the limbs behave with different gripping forms. My epiphaney came when he shows how the longbow limbs react when drawn with a high grip and why you must use a low grip on long bows. It all has to do with how the bow is engineered and Hill bows are designed to be shot with the fulcrum (for lack of a better term)--the point where you support the bow handle at full draw--in the middle of the handle. Recurves are designed to be shot with the fulcrum just below the shelf. Again--you can see how the limbs work together (or don't) for both bows when he uses a correct grip for the bow in question and an incorrect grip. When I saw that it was clear as a blue sky what I was doing wrong with my longbow and its made all the difference in my longbow shooting.
My Outlook on the Situation: Take the TIME to Learn to Shoot a D-Bow Accurately, and You wont go Back!! There is something Extremely Rewarding about Shooting a Straight-Limbed Longbow and Hitting what You want, it is THE Greatest Feeling of Self-Accomplishment!! :archer: P.S. I Shoot a High Grip due to a Fuzed Wrist, so I guess that Adds to the Love!!
I own a bunch of bows, trad and otherwise ... and I sell many different style 'trad ' bows through my shop . I have access to pretty much everything an archer could want and when I head into the field I am usually toting a Hill style bow ...
To be honest , I have bows that are 'easier' to shoot , and I have recurves that are so easy to tune they are a joy to set up , let alone . tack drive shoot ... A 300 round with these bows is great fun ...
But in the field and forest I want "deer" accuracy ..... and I get this from my Hills . They ain't the fastest and they have a 'bump' ... but they are sweet , slick and robust !!!
And at the end of things they are are about as "ol skool" as I can go in a glassed bow ... I play with other bow styles , even hunt with them ... But Its the Hill style bow that floats my boat and has accounted for much of my limited success in the wilds , ... bringing home goats , hogs , deer , rabbits and foxes ...
Could I have dome with another style bow ? You bet !
Would I want to ?
Not really ...
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
I own a bunch of bows, trad and otherwise ... and I sell many different style 'trad ' bows through my shop . I have access to pretty much everything an archer could want and when I head into the field I am usually toting a Hill style bow ...
To be honest , I have bows that are 'easier' to shoot , and I have recurves that are so easy to tune they are a joy to set up , let alone . tack drive shoot ... A 300 round with these bows is great fun ...
But in the field and forest I want "deer" accuracy ..... and I get this from my Hills . They ain't the fastest and they have a 'bump' ... but they are sweet , slick and robust !!!
And at the end of things they are are about as "ol skool" as I can go in a glassed bow ... I play with other bow styles , even hunt with them ... But Its the Hill style bow that floats my boat and has accounted for much of my limited success in the wilds , ... bringing home goats , hogs , deer , rabbits and foxes ...
Could I have dome with another style bow ? You bet !
Would I want to ?
Not really ...
That pretty much sums it up for ya. I love my Howard Hill Big Five, I have all kinds of bows but my Hill is my favorite to hunt with and to just shoot they are simple and fun and deadly in the woods. My Big Five is a no frills workhorse not a bow rack queen, pretty much bomb proof and a proven taker of game.
Getting a ton of great advice here guys. Thanks.
What about this:
1) Are these bows just plain harder to shoot?
2) Is a low-40's Hill type bow good for whitetails? I wanna add a lower weight bow to my collection but I also want to make sure it won't disappoint in the field.
Question 1.... no!
Question 2 ... they will punch through any white tail in the US with a good sharp 2 blade broadhead.
God bless,Mudd
1) Harder to shoot? No. Different--Yes! If you had never hot a bow before and picked up a Hill Bow and had someone who knows their way around a Hill bow teach you how to shoot it I don't think there's any real difference in the learning curve. But the fact is that few people actually start on Hill bows. So they learn how to do things differently and when they get a Hill Bow in their hands they try and shoot it in the style they learned as a recurve shooter and have a hard time trying to understand why they can't get the bow to perform and why it has so mu h hand shock.
2) Hill bows like big heavy arrows. In my experience you hunt with a Heavy hill so you can throw big arrows at repectable speeds. You can hunt with 40# Hills I suppose....but I've never done it. Suppose someone will be along and tell you how they do it.
Question 2 ...
What Mudd said .
QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:
Getting a ton of great advice here guys. Thanks.
What about this:
1) Are these bows just plain harder to shoot?
2) Is a low-40's Hill type bow good for whitetails? I wanna add a lower weight bow to my collection but I also want to make sure it won't disappoint in the field.
try one. you've to try some. get thee to a shoot or rendezvous and try LOTS.
all the words in the world ain't gonna help ya one bit - git out there and shoot and find out for yerself!
i shot my highest 3d scores w a 44 lb hill bow nate steen put one of his wedge grips on it and the guy in 2nd place was surprised he had been in another groupwhen he saw whaty i was shooting well im certainly not the best archer you have ever seen and hill bows are not the fastest but they have afeel to them and when you are in the that bore ahole in it conncentration mode and you connect with it you will know it imho
Well said Ron. Once you've shot a Hill, you will want to buy one. Once you've bought one, you will want to buy another. Then you will want to build one. Then another. Then another. You can never go wrong with a Hill longbow.
justin
Question 1: I think Kentucky Jeff has answered your first question pretty well. I changed from shooting a bare bow machine to a Hill style longbow back in 1984 and have shot them ever since along with some self bows.
For me it was most definitely a learning curve because the longbow needed to be shoot in a different manner to what I was used to. Once I did that my shooting improved very quickly and later on I found I could shoot my longbow just as well as the machine and my field archery scores averaged about the same.
To me you have to WANT to shoot a Hill style bow and be willing to accept that they are just a different type of bow and shoot them accordingly.
Question 2: What Mudd said. I think one of the fallacies around today is that all Hill style bows are slow when this is in fact not true. I have seen many times where a well designed Hill style bow has out performed a semi-recurve (I don't consider them longbows).
One last thing; your Tolke Whip is of deflex/reflex design and not reflex/deflex. I know the Bowyer himself incorrectly calls them reflex/deflex as do most people on this forum. However, a bows limb design is described by what the limbs do when leaving the handle of the bow. Deflex/reflex and reflex/deflex are opposites and can not be used to describe the same thing. If people have a flat tyre they don't say they are going to deflate it when they mean they are going inflate it, do they? I wasn't having a dig at you with these comments mate; it is just one of my pet peeves because it has led to a lot of confusion in the Trad scene.
All the best with your decision making and I hope you give a Hill style bow a go. :)
if you are shooting your Whips with a fairly straight arm, you may find that you will like a shorter draw on a saddle or straight gripped Hill. I am not so sure that a lighter bow than what you already have will fill the job you would want it to do to your satisfaction. Even though they don't loose as much of a percentage of their cast with a heavy arrow, they tend to be slower and if your draw with one is shorter that will reduce your cast as well. While some advocate super heavy arrows to reduce hand shock, I am suspect of the bow or how they are using it, if that is what is needed to make it work for them. 9 or 10 grain per pound should be good enough. I find that the average cedar shaft is, most of the time, adequate. I have only once gotten a set of arrows that was so light that I felt compelled to do a partial soaking in Watco oil to up the weight a little. There is nothing wrong with having a lighter Hill style bow, but you will be soon enough be getting a heavier one. The Hill spread or swing draw form allows for a very strong draw. The difference for the leverage would be similar to picking up a bucket of water close to your side versus with an outstretched arm. Most people develop some form of a spread leverage sooner or later, it the natural thing to do with a low grip. Even the rotational draw is a form of it, but I my opinion, probably better for a fixed target.
Perhaps you should find someone that has a bow that would fit your draw length requirements and borrow it to give it a try in a calm environment.
Going to shoots to try bows can be good, but it may be more difficult with sales pressure and lots of folks around, for you make a clear headed and careful analysis of the bow and how you are shooting it.
Just my 2 cents:
I switched from Recurves to Hill Style longbows this August and the switch was relatively quick and easy. At the same time I made a faily large step up in draw weight of around 10 pounds (55 to 65+). I bought my first Hill longbow in late July and was shooting accurately enough for hunting within an hour. I admit, that was close, as the range got a little longer it took a bit more practice. Regarding hand shock, I barely notice it at all. The one difference I would say is that when shooting my recurves I hold the riser VERY loosely. With just my index finger lightly around the grip. That doesn't work so well with the longbows as it will try to jump out of your hand. Still is it anything that rattles fillings from your teeth. Absolutely not! Shooting my Schulz at around 66# and a 650 grain arrow and the "hand shock" is negligible.
I also have one other "opinion" and you know what they say about opinions! :bigsmyl:
A quieter bow will have less "hand shock" than a noisy bow. Perhaps this is just me but it is sort of like shooting loud firearms, some of the felt recoil is between your ears. To me a quieter longbow just feels smoother on the shot to me than a noisy one.
Regarding the question about shooting a Hill style bow and moving back to your Tolke Whip R/D bow, I bounce from my Hill's to my Massey "Longhorns" without a problem. Once you learn the technique of shooting a Hill style long bow(heel of bow hand down) you should be able to bounce back and forth without problem. I'm actually hunting with a "Longhorn" this season with my Hill "RedMan" as my backup. Same arrows with the same point of impact. Practice and you'll be just fine.
i have no problem going back and forth 'tween hill's 'n' 'hawks with nary an issue. then again, i shoot them all the same way. :)
Rather than using the word thump to describe the sensation of a loosed arrow from a Hill I think all would agree that the feeling of "the bow feels alive" would describe it in more detail.. The only thing I don't like about the Hill experience is that I haven't saved enough money to get another. Someday soon, someday soon.
A pro is if you have one, you can take pics like this ....
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/dave27615/spikefrost.jpg)