Well a side affect of being me is not having the ability to leave well enough alone. After reading the Ashby report and other articles I'm making the jump, trading for some bonehead lites any advice, beside match bevel to fletch?
They aren't a cure all, fix all. Ya still gotta do the work. Best of luck on the switch.
Understood, not lookin for a fix just a smarter choice... The facts behind single bevels seem to be good
I carry some of each in my back quiver (Zwickey Deltas and Grizzly El Grandes), but I usually find myself putting the old, trusty Deltas on the string. I still want to shoot something with check Grizzlies just for comparison, but it's hard to change what works.
I just shot a doe with the Abowyer bonehead last weekend. My arrow completely smashed through the offside leg bone on the way out, deer dropped at 50 paces with a good blood trail. I was happy enough to order some more. The edges remained shaving sharp, but the tip bent over a little, I gave Abowyer a call and they told me to send it in to them. I shot a 550gr total weight arrow with 25% FOC, ( CX 400 spine with a Bone head, 43 gr adapter and 100 gr brass insert ) out of my 54# Kwik Styk.
Ben
Do your part get them sharp and put them where you are supposed to and you wont be disappointed.
The longer this single bevel idea gets kicked around, the more tempted I am to re-grind one of my 170gr Zwickey 2-blades. There was a post here somewhere before and I believe the end weight was somewhere around 146 gr. Think this will be fun to play with - after I have some venison in the freezer.
I like mine, Grizzly 200 gr.
On the way in.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc214/amicuspaint/neckbone.jpg)
On the way out.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc214/amicuspaint/neckbone2.jpg)
Gilbert
the main reason i am looking at them is the "spiral cut" which should create a bigger wound channel than a comparable 2 blade, not looking at bustin bone or anything,i have great penetration with my current set up, just thinking i could get more cut with a single bevel and its cut vs a std 2 blade..
QuoteOriginally posted by Dave Lay:
the main reason i am looking at them is the "spiral cut" which should create a bigger wound channel than a comparable 2 blade, not looking at bustin bone or anything,i have great penetration with my current set up, just thinking i could get more cut with a single bevel and its cut vs a std 2 blade..
X2
Not trying to steal your post brother but check out this hole.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Hunt%202011/Hunting2011101.jpg)
When someone talks about a two blade just leaving a slit I think they must be talking about a double bevel two blade, which also does the job by the way, I just happen to prefer single bevel because this is what I get. You can see the s shape curve to the hole and how it stays open.
I would like to try some single bevels also, but just can't seem to make myself leave the Zwicky Delta 4 blades.
God Bless,
Nathan
The only single bevel head I've tried is the Abowyer Wapiti. I only use them for moose and large game. So far I've taken 2 shots at moose and killed 2 bulls (Alaska-sized), getting great penetration and wounds. I watched both of these bulls spin and fall. The main thing I like about this head is the super-heavy build and durability. I'm not ready to buy into the whole spiral cutting wound channel thing...yet. I find them extremely nice to sharpen, as there are only 2 bevels per head to address. All mine are nightmare-sharp.
They do twist. They want to rotate when I pull them out of my broadhead target and you can see the S curve if they hit a spot that isn't shot out.
more pics please...
I"m not enamored with single bevel 2 blade broadheads. Yes, they do make a larger hole than a regular double bevel 2 blade broadhead and they do make good blood trails, but the same can be said for a double bevel 3 blade broadhead.
After a lifetime of shooting Bear, Zwickeys, and Magnus in both two blade and four(and a few others because an old bhd collector just HAS to try some others that seem so promising....), I have changed to the single bevel and the whole Ashby fandango. In all these years, we've seen a lot of game shot with the great old heads, and I will readily admit I've never seen an animal well-hit with a razor sharp well-made broadhead that was lost. Like many of you, however, I've helped search for animals that were never recovered and no one could ever truly tell what happened with them. Much of my experience has been with deer size animals, however I have not found elk or other larger animals to be significantly different.
Also, while I personally have little experience with 3 blade heads, some of the best hunters I know are SLAYING critters with them, and it's the same principle: good hunter, good shot, well constructed SHARP head, and that's all it takes.
Regardless of all that, I am incredibly impressed by the totality of Dr. Ashby's studies and results. Most of his findings are based on animals with the bone structure of an armored vehicle(in comparison to a deer, anyway! .......look at the thread on the Africa forum for some skeleton comparisons.) I remember when seat belts first appeared on cars....many people laughed at them and the crash test "dummies" that supported the development of all those additional safety features we "NEVER NEEDED BEFORE... ....unless we happened to hit something real hard!!!)
I never get behind the wheel intending to have an accident. I never plan to make a poor shot on game or at practice. Sometimes(!), I do. To my thinking, Ashby's work on arrow lethality shows some things I can do that increase the probability I will bring home the animal I shoot.
While elk hunting last month, I had one big Magnus in the quiver with my Brown Bears, knowing that arrow was set up to shoot just like the others. It was just a matter of having an empty quiver slot and just so many sharpened broadheads. Had a one shot kill on a bear with that same magnus a couple of years ago.... ... I'll never hesitate to use such a good head. However...had shot presented itself, my #1 and #2 arrows had single bevel heads on them.
Hey Dave, I too was thinking that the single bevel would produce a better bloodtrail due to the "S" shaped wound channel along with the penetration of a two blade. Well, the first deer I shot this year with one didn't produce a blood trail any different than what I have experienced with a standard double bevel broadhead. In my opinion, (based on 30+ years)the Zwickey 4-blades, Bear Razorheads,and other multi-blade broadheads put more blood on the ground with similar hits. (double lung, broadside)
I don't shoot but around 47 pounds and my arrows are around 10 gpi so I don't expect to blast thru shoulder blades or other heavy bones with ANY broadhead. What I do want is as much blood as I can get on the ground due to the thick cover I hunt in. I want the biggest broadhead that I can reliably get out the other side. Your experience may be different, but WITH MY SETUP I didn't see any great gains with the single bevel broadhead.
I tend to think people are: 1)looking for a dramatic increase in broadhead performance, or 2)thinking they'll be surprised at how much better a single-bevel head does something. My experience has it that these folks will be disappointed. I have no interest in discussing all the small/finer points of what a single-bevel can or should do, vs a 2-bevel. These are well documented. The rub is how well these differences equate to overall better RESULTS for the user. The only reason I might care about a twisting cut is if it definitely ups my recovery and success rate. So far, that point has never been proven. It's a matter of taking all the information at hand and forming your own conclusion. If you conclude it's an advantage for you...hop aboard. I feel safe in saying that there will never be proof-positive that single-bevel heads produce a higher recovery rate, and in the end, what matters the most?
I really like oldbohntr's analogy to the Crash Test Dummies. Maybe this matter just takes a LOT of time and results to accumulate the data. So many variables to look at. How many different shot (crash) scenarios can you picture? How do you measure every one of these factors? Is it possible to prove that a single-bevel (seat belt) would have made a huge difference? One good experience is not proof...it's a tiny piece of data. How much good is a seat belt on side impacts? Think a single bevel from a 45 pound bow will bust through a femur or vertebra every single time? With nobody collecting date (who could anyway?) all we have to go on...for real world results...is anecdotal statements and evidence.
Don't buy a sbb for magically better outcomes. Buy it and know it's 100% as good as a dbb...and just might be a little better in some regards. Or not.
Do you need some serious power behind a single bevel. I am currently shooting 45#. Is that enough?
QuoteOriginally posted by Uncle Buck:
Do you need some serious power behind a single bevel. I am currently shooting 45#. Is that enough?
Whatever works for a dbb will work for a sbb.
Re: Uncle Buck. No, you do not need "serious power" for a sbb to work properly. Actually just the opposite, if I shot forty-something pound bows, I WOULD WANT to be using sbb. It's not the weight of the bow, it's the efficiency of your setup as a whole i.e. arrow tuning, bow tuning, FoC, broadhead sharpness, equipment reliability, etc. dbb work just fine (obviously), they have for a long time. Again you have to look at everything in unison.
Re: Kevin Dill and oldbohnter are spot on in their assessment. Don't look to anything as being all encompassing and the end all, you will always be disappointed otherwise. I have shot a few deer with sbb and even more with dbb, I cannot conclude which is better in every circumstance. Having said that, I am heading down the road of committing to sbb's for a number of reasons (supported by Ashby's studies). When the deer poop hits the fan, and I do hit bone, I guess I'd feel better knowing I shot into it with a sbb. I have also had excellent outcomes on marginal non-bone hits with ssb's.
As far as really big animals, Asiatic Water buffalo and Cape Buffalo etc., if you have read Dr. Ashby's studies and believe what he has published, there should be no doubt in one's mind as to what geometry BH and bevel has a clear advantage. Over and over again the results are very predictable. It would stand to reason that this same information would apply to deer sized game as well, but even the good doctor does not make this claim, as he does NOT have the data to support it. If I am incorrect on this, please let me know.
This is not an argument, it's just a discussion of choices and options. It's supposed to be fun and interesting. For most of us, this is our passion, so aren't we lucky to have this forum to think about this stuff together? How boring otherwise.
Sincerely –
Kris
Heck Amicus...I've blown THROUGH vertebrae with a FOUR BLADE more than once.
Dave Lay....my 4 blades rotate going through also.
Our "Traditional style" heads are leaps and bounds ahead of the other BH's on the market (mechanicals in particular). A solid COC two blade (sbb or dbb), three blade or four blade is the way to go. I doubt I will get any opposition to this statement on this forum.
Kris
Check out these DOUBLE Bevel 2 blade holes...
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/ten20.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/cohuttabearwound1.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/cohuttabearwound2.jpg)
Well, I would hope they don't pull it. There's nothing disrespectful being said here, and I think it's exactly the kind of talk we'd have sitting around the campfire as hunting friends...whether talking broadheads, or any other part of our experience. As you said, Kevin, it adds a little data to our own limited experiences.
Everybody who's really read Ashby's reports knows its not all about how many bevels your broadhead has, nor that any other of his statistical observations are claimed to be the only way to go. He's assembled some data to evaluate some of the choices we have in our hunting arrows. It's more data and information than any of us could have done ourselves, and -truly- it is observed on animals that provide a real test for his equipment. There's no African Buffalo season in my state, so I can't even shoot ONE! His reports surely wouldn't have been as meaningful if he was shooting the animals we hope to every fall.
I've taken more animals with Zwickey Deltas than any other head, and next is Magnus. Ashby's reports didn't "condemn" heads like these. Nor does it indicate that one has to go for small diameter shafts, high arrow mass, FOC, high MA broadheads, or any of the other criteria he evaluated. It does give information to compare some facets of hunting arrow performance and we didn't have that before, at least not with this amount of data. It was offered to us for free, and I think he just suggested we take from it what we will.
Everyone on this forum is probably already way ahead of the general bow hunting community wrt the skills/knowledge that are more important than minor differences in equipment: ethics, hunting and shooting ability, limiting shot distance, broadhead sharpening skills, a quiet bow/string, odor control, etc.....all the factors that get us the right shot in the first place. But, whether your sport is traditional bow hunting, fly-fishing, or (shudder!)golf, it's only natural to discuss your experiences and equipment choices with your friends. That's why we're here on TG, right?
Great reading here guys I don't have a problem at all with dbbs matter of face my first trad deer took a phantom to the spine pulled stropped it good as new. I really.like how tough the abowyers look. I know nothing beats placement and a field point will kill if shot is good. I hope these abowyers are as good as they look.
"Heck Amicus...I've blown THROUGH vertebrae with a FOUR BLADE more than once."
I sure would like to see a pic of that.
I think when you blow through bone it has more to do with the power behind the broadhead.
The pic I posted is typical of what a single bevel is designed to do, regardless of bow poundage. Of course within reason.
Gilbert
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Heck Amicus...I've blown THROUGH vertebrae with a FOUR BLADE more than once.
Dave Lay....my 4 blades rotate going through also.
Terry, does it? its a honest question, not trying to be a smart arse, i have shot 4 and 2 blade deltas for about 30 years strayed once to sasquatches, but back on deltas, i always assumed the head stopped rotating as it struck meat, where a single bevel had more "rotation" inside the animal creating a larger wound channel. I shoot 60 lbs or so and 600 gr arrows and have few penetration issues. just trying to cut more on the way through....
Yes Dave....the entrance and exit wounds of most of my pass through kills have different angles.
Amicus, unfortunately that was back in the early 90s...back then I didn't think that sort of stuff would be that important for future reference.
If I'd have known there was going to be an 'internet'....I would have taken lots more autopsy photos for sure.