I've killed 2 deer this year so far (1st 2 with a recurve). One gut shot which I recovered, and one liver shot which I did not recover. I know what happened with the gut shot, but not really with the liver shot. When I shot I was confident of the shot, the release felt good, I feel that I had good concentration, but the arrow hit high and back.
What I'm struggling with is the fact that I cannot decipher where I went wrong on the shot. If I don't know what I did wrong, I don't know what to work on. I'm really struggling with how am I to know that when I shoot, the arrow will go where I look? With my old method of shooting arrows, a miss, or poor hit could always be tied to something done wrong.
I've practiced alot, tuned my arrows, etc... Its a little hard to accept this result after the work put into it. My confidence is low right now. I'm not quite willing to go back to the old way. Right now I feel I should move from 20 yards max to 15, which feels like quite the handicap, even for trad shooting.
Is the lack of absolute consistency something that you need to accept as a trad hunter? Perhaps there are some people that cannot hunt trad, just like not all people can run marathons?
Anyway, It feels like I'm at a turning point. I've tested the waters before and always enjoyed trad, but now that the rubber has met the road I'm not sure I can keep up. I mean I want to, but don't want to fool myself. Kinda like the time I started training for a marathon and found out that my body would not take it, I'm just a 5K kinda guy.
The natural tendency is to look at the deer and shoot. That's middle deer and that's to far back. Focus on where the arrow will EXIT and think vitals just above the rear edge of the foreleg. "Pick a spot" is a tired expression but PICK A DIME SIZED SPOT AND MAKE THAT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE for the moment of release.
Practice, practice, practice. Stumps, squirrels, rabbits, the first clump of grass you can see come daylight from your stand, etc. I carry five broadheads and two blunts and I shoot those two blunts very often. At least four times a day when out hunting.
Shoot one arrow per target. That is what counts. Only the first shot.
I understand where you are coming from. The best way I have found to get over the lack of confidence is to shoot just like Stumpkiller said. As for shooting at deer keep it within 20 and aim for the fur that protrudes from the "elbow" It always gives me a small spot to focus on. Good luck and don't give up on it.
"Is the lack of absolute consistency something that you need to accept as a trad hunter?"
Absolutely not. If you can't hit your within a few inches of your spot with your first arrow, in my opinion, you have no business hunting.
That being said, are you totally missing your spot, or are the deer moving on you? If you are shooting while a deer is looking at you, it may not be your performance that is causing the misses. Or if the distance is too long.
How do you perform on small game? I'd suggest sticking to small game for a while to determine if it is indeed your shooting, or if it's just your shot choices.
I have a hog set up in the yard-hogs are what I hunt the most often. Shoot like you would on the hunt-if you hunt from a stand set one up in the yard of shoot from a window or garage roof.
I hunt from the ground so that 's what I focus on. Shoot one arrow at a time -with some time in between.
when i first switched, the big thing i was doing wrong was bending my bow arm at different angles, thereby lengthening and shortening my draw length from shot to shot. maybe your doing something similar??
Are these cold shots?
Don't beat yourself up over this kind of thing and don't listen to the criticism. It happens to everyone regardless of whether or not they will admit it, and if it hasn't happened to them yet, one day it will.
It doesn't matter if you're hunting with a trad bow, a compound or a rifle, sometimes bad or accidental shots occur. And, if a bad shot isn't enough to be concerned about you can just as easily put an arrow into a deer just perfectly and it will run off and die without you being able to recover it. I've done that several times and I'm not the least bit concerned about it.
The suggestion that you stick to small game doesn't make any sense either. They are just as important in the scheme of things as the large stuff and wounding one of them is as critical as wounding a deer.
Take a deep breath, find a comfortable range for your skill level and work on your shooting. Don't quit hunting.
Sounds like string jumping to me because of your shot placement. Deer react so quick you can't even see it. The move they make to jump is down and if they are going to turn back in the direction that they came from it gives you a high and back hit which is what you are describing. You might need to quiten the bow down or just get lucky. LOL
Sometimes you can do everything right and stuff just happens.
It could also be that you could be taking the shot when the deer is slightly alert,. Same thing happens. Taking the shot at exactly the right time is extremely important.
God bless you, Steve
Take the short shots. Yes limit yourself to 15 yards if that is what it takes to give yourself total confidence. i practice out to 30 yards, but almost 100% of my shots are under 15 yards.
Look at some of RC's posts on here. i would wager that his average shot is around 10 to 12 yards. Find your comfort range and stick with it.
Make the first shot count in your practice sessions as Bjorn said above cause that is the only one that counts when you are hunting.
Good luck to you sir!
When you practice only shoot one shot at a time,like what bjorn and Rastaman said it's the only that counts.
Also want to add that if you are hunting out of a tree stand pratice shooting from a elevated position , a 8 foot ladder in the back yard shooting down hill is all thats needed . Im not a great shot at all but I do take alot of deer with my bow . I also like to keep my shots at 15 yards if I can so dont worrie about that . If I can convince a deer to climb my tree I will shoot him even closer :bigsmyl: , I like them CLOSE enough to hear them chewing acorns . Folks hunt diffrent but this is whats its all about for me .
i
I couldn't agree more with with landman. However, another's comment "Can't hit within a few inches of your spot with your first arrow, you have no business hunting." It's inherent that we strive and look for consistency but to carry it as far as that writer did is silly at best. Confidence can't be under estimated so focus on the positive and work on the rest, and good huntin.
Silly? How is that silly? I'm not saying that people don't miss. We all do. And I'm not saying you need to put every arrow into one hole, but do you mean to tell me that you think it's okay for someone to hunt when they can't hit what they aim at with reasonable certainty? There absolutely is a certain amount of accuracy needed to hunt. I think being able to keep your arrows on a pie plate at your maximum hunting distance is a long accepted measurement of acceptable hunting accuracy. To be able to do that, you need to be able to "hit within a few inches of your spot." Period. A pie plate is only 9" in diameter.
As to hunting small game, I've shot who knows how many dozens of squirrels over the last 30 years. When using a broadhead, I can count the number I've hit and not killed on one hand. The same thing goes for rabbits. The overwhelming majority of the time a hit is a kill.
Definalty a turning point in your bowhunting careeer.
Is the lack of absolute consistency something that you need to accept as a trad hunter
I agree, absolutely not. Are you not consistent?
Break things down. If its not you, its not you. If it is you'll hit the smoking gun in time. If its deer jumping which it likely can be, there is no good answer, not all deer react to the same set of rules as the last.
Is 15 yards a hinderance? Well it is only if you let it. My last animal was at 5 steps. Heck 90% of my animals are under 10 yards. So I guess the next question would be what would you define as success which would lead into a hole nother cano worms we dont want to delve into right now. If killing is how you define yourself as successful (again I am not asking for an answer as much as getting you to think about this), than you'll have to learn to be a better hunter to get within 15 yards instead of 20, or 20yards instead of 25, or 30 instead of 50... You get my point I'm sure.
Definatly admireable that you are concerned enough to fix this if it happens to a problem that you can fix...but realize you may not be able too. Only you can answer that question. None of us seen what happened on those two deer.
When you get back on your feet and you're ready to chase tundra wookies (bou), holler. That'll really ruin your idea of being a good hunter lol. But it's a heckuva lot of fun and every once in awhile one gets close enough to keep you coming back for more.
QuoteWhat I'm struggling with is the fact that I cannot decipher where I went wrong on the shot.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that you shoot with nail-driving accuracy when you practice at your preferred hunting distances, but can't seem to make the transition from practice shots to hunting shots? That's what most of the previous comments seem to assume, and if that is the case, their advice seems on-point to me.
On the other hand, if you shoot practice shots where you miss and don't know why, then more practice or hunting small game isn't going to help. What you need is to attend a class like Rod Jenkins' class, or to find a personal coach. Several times I have been in the situation of missing and not knowing why, and had people like Rod point out something I was doing that I was unaware of, and when I changed whatever it was, that solved the problem. Once you become aware of why you're missing, it becomes relatively easy to solve the problem. Doesn't mean that some new problem isn't going to crop up, but at least you're aware of how to solve the old problem.
If shooting instinctive and not getting consistancy, try gap or point of aim.
Use what works. Practice like hell.
Tough call. Agree w/others trad ain't for everyone. Much appreciate your ethical concern. We'll support you either way. Suggest small game practice & shorter kill shots on larger game until you can extend when confident.
Yeah, but putting them all in a pie plate is not "hitting within a few inches of your spot" if your are focusing on a dime sized spot. A 9" pie plate is 64 square inches! LOTS of room. :thumbsup:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Stumpkiller/Bowhunting/HPIM2297.jpg)
Bow Bum - it's good you are discouraged. Shows you care. Start at closer distances and move back gradually. You don't want to tire yourself out being frustrated at 25 yards. Poor practice just reenforces poor shooting. Shoot from 7 to 10 yards for a while just concentrating on form and a consistant anchor.
Out on the lawn with a plastic milk jug and blunts is a great practice. A milk jug is about the size of a whitetail deer's vitals.
I have two thoughts. One is, if you don't already do it do more practice shooting from a tree stand. The sight picture is different than when on the ground. And do this with some practice broadheads.
Second, deer will often move at the sound of the shot. There may be nothing at all wrong with your shooting. Last year my wife, Laura, who is dead nuts on under 20 yards, shot a buck and the arrow took him in front of the left hip and exited in the middle of the rib cage on the other side. He was perfectly broadside when she shot so the angle of the wound (Entrance to exit) indicated the deer moved even though she did not notice it in "real time". The deer, in my mind at least, had veered to its right at the sound of the shot so it hit a bit back and exited the rib cage on the opposite side. I cannot think of another explanation as to how a broadside shot turns into such a quartering away shot.
Just read on TG where on 10/10/10 G. Wensel missed a shot at a big'n!
Just read on TG where a down hill shot resulted in a exit wound higher than the entrance wound.
I've wounded and or completely missed with modern compounds and crossbows alike!
Some days, I shoot groups like the best of them and other days, I can't hardly get a group. I have come to base my confidence on my first shot at an unkown distance. More often than not my first shot is truly instinctive. And, that is the shot you will find in a hunting situation. Not to say I haven't had to follow up once or twice!
I do this practice all the time to build my confidence. Take one shot at a distance of about 10yrds; pick a spot and think of nothing else.
Go do something for about 15 minutes and return to shoot again.
10yrds builds your confidence.
Now, go do something for 15 or 20 minutes and return to shoot at an unkown distance; pick a spot and think of nothing else!
I do keep my unkown distance under 22yrds (my backyard) and try to work out to that over a day.
I find that most of my so called 1st shots are in a deer sized vital area. I am then confident enough to hunt.
When I do miss a so called 1st shot, I try to think of times I missed with that compound or from now on G. Wensel on 10/10/10!
I expect to kill deer with my trad bow, but I also expect I'll miss some too! Everyone has bad days and second thoughts, you're not alone.
Some pretty good advice and I don't have to add much.I really admire your ethics and concern.Stuff does happen,no matter how hard we try and I believe you can improve the odds if you decide to stick with it.We don't have a pin or a bead to put on that "spot" and under stress,our concentration often isn't as focused as when we are shooting in the yard.
Regarding the issue of possible string jump,I have to ask,did you grunt to stop either deer.
That is a popular method these days and it puts deer on high alert before the shot.I like a standing deer myself but if a deer is walking and I feel I can make the shot,I will give it a very small lead and shoot.As much as I prefer a shot at a standing,relaxed deer,even they have a better chance to jump than a deer moving forward.
The walking deer is making noise and has to reverse directions to drop and bolt.Stopping deer and shooting at them with a weapon that shoots a projectile only 170 fps or even 300,can lead to a miss or much worse.
Stopping a deer when using a weapon that shoots 800 fps or more is a whole different ball game.Just some food for thought and that shot can be easily practiced with the help of a friend,a long rope and a milk jug.
Well whatever you decide,good luck.I'm impressed with your attitude and know you will work it out.
Do you practice on one of the foam deer targets? 20 yards shooting at a big bag target or anything other than the deer shaped targets create a false sense of confidence when your target changes to a deer. They do not simulate what actually we are trying to do. Also going from a dot on a target to a solid colored deer is very different as well. I figured out years ago to practice as I play and my confidence now is over the top when drawing down on a deer even at 20 yards.
Back then I could stand and hit around a dot at 20 all day long. When I went to the deer target my effective range immediately went to 15 yards until I built up my confidence. Doesn't take long either. Within a few weeks if you shoot quit a bit you should be back to your 20 yard and even farther max.
Five K's and marathon's are worlds apart. You are merely and likely trying to bridge a very small gap. The issue is that the gap is 100 ft. crevace. If you believe you can't cross, then this train of thought will likely prove you right.
Absolutely can not decipher what were the issues with the previous shots. You will greatly improve identifying an error by having, owning and perfecting a personalized routine. Strict adherance to my routine serves me well in both practise and hunting situations. At the moment of truth, focus more on your routine and change nothing.
This correspondence is no way intended to be a lecture. You are likely much closer to attaining your objective than you believe. I am far from being immune to committing errors and frequently do. We are just human and some of us are more human than others.
Your concern is admireable but don't let it stand in the way of attaining your objecture.
Have faith...believe....and enjoy the journey.
You should be commended for your attitude and desire to be an ethical hunter.
I didn't read anybody elses comments above, but I'm sure most of those guys gave you solid advice.
My only advice is to not quit. You'll have ups and downs, and you're down right now. But hang in there. The up side is just around the corner.
Our gun club is open to the public the two weekends before firearms season for "Sight In Days". We make spotting scopes and targets available. I see guys come out there with their rusty old 30-30, a cigar box of shells; some of them 150gr, some of them 170gr; some Winchester, some Remington. They shoot 5 shots without touching the paper at 100 yds. Suggest they sight it in at 25yds and they get all belligerent. They finally poke a hole in the target and say "Yep. She's right on". These guys are not hunters. Someone who practices regularly, works on improving his ability and is truly concerned about a miss has my vote as a hunter. I think all of the posts had a similar line - shorten up the distance until you get some confidence back and stay with it!
There are a billion variables with any shot at an animal. Animals will and do move often at the shot. I am also itching to make my first traditional kill but recently had some intensive form training and have been working hard on that. Relaxation in your physical form is important, tension can lead to unperceived errors in shooting, such as torquing the bow due to too much tension in the bow hand. I would suggest doing some serious work on your bow form. This is not to say that you don't have good form but strictly form work WILL improve your overall shooting. Taking a target out of the equation makes it easier to assess your form. Take a single shot at a blank bale, then assess your form through your shot cycle. Then repeat and work on consistency. The form work that I have been doing over the last 5-6 weeks has helped my target shooting considerably. Give it a try and listen carefully to the advice you are given.
Best of Luck,
TomBow
The longest shot in bowhunting is about five inches and it's from your left temple to your right one.
Shooting under pressure is not the same as shooting at a bale and never will be. Ask a trained police officer or infantryman how often they hit what they are shooting at under pressure. The honest answer is "not very darn often".
You made two shots, you recovered two deer. Yes, there's room for improvement, but you did well!
"Yeah, but putting them all in a pie plate is not "hitting within a few inches of your spot" if your are focusing on a dime sized spot. A 9" pie plate is 64 square inches! LOTS of room."
Sure it is. If you're focused on a dime-sized spot in the center of a plate, the worst you can do and still hit the plate is to be 4.5" from the center. In my mind, that is "a few inches". Maybe I should have said "within a feather-length". The group you posted above are all within a few inches of each other. That looks to me like a grouping of someone with the skills required to hunt deer at whatever distance that was shot, other factors not withstanding.
At any rate, I think everyone would agree that you need to have some measure of consistency. And there most certainly is a degree of accuracy a hunter needs to have before he shoots at a deer. The last thing any of us want to see is someone slinging arrows willy nilly and hoping for a hit. That is a sure recipe for a lot of bad things to happen.
I'm not saying this is the case with Bow Bum. Not at all. However, he admitted to losing his confidence and asked a question. I suspect that he was just taking a too long of a shot at the deer and they were moving on him.
Restraint is necessary no matter what the weapon may be.
These are all great advice, and I realy learn a lot from them! Like most said, get close, practice the way you hunt, only shoot at game that don't know you are there!
Good luck and keep at it!
Thanks for all the advice! I really appreciate it.
For lack of other recources, I've used the pie plate as my benchmark. I've done alot of 1st arrow analysis, and grouping based off that I determined 20 yards was max. I've shot a decent amount from the elevation of my garage roof, and have not noticed any ill effects as long as I maintain form. Maybe the pie plate is aaload of crap? A pie plate group is nothing special really.
I tried to shoot tonight, and you can about imagine how that went! This is certainly not an issue to have right in season...
Thanks and best regards,
Brian