i have been working really hard on my form. when i come to my ancor in the corner of my mouth and "dig in" while i hunker down on my arrow my groups have tightined greatly.
the problem is the last 1 or 2 inches seems to be hard or at least i have to think about. is that stack or being slightly over bowed?
i usually don't notice thoes last few inches until i have shot 2-3 dozen arrows.
What kind of bow is it and what are the cores made out of. What are the specs?
A picture of you at full draw would help a lot as well.
Just a thought. If your groups are tight for a few dozen arrows, why not exercise yourself into the stack or extra weight? Sounds simple fix to what otherwise may not.
Same bow, same draw; but, done at 1/3 intervals & hold for a 3 count until full & 1/3 intervals back down. 10 reps w/each hand. (try 3 sets each hand) That is, draw the same intervals with the opposite hand using the string also. Quick fix in a week or less.
Might be your form, you might be in too closed of a stance. Might be how you draw into your anchor.
Could be a number of things including too short of a bow for your draw length, too much draw weight, or even a bit of target panic. Stats on your bow, draw length, etc. would help.
Get a scale and do an FD curve. That will tell you where the stack, if any, begins. Over bow is the killer of form, IMHO.
If it is either, you still have an issue. Everything said above, you've got to go to basics and find out what it is. A thousand things can be going on.
Do you have access to lighter or longer bows to experiment? Or just different designed bows....you have to shoot something else to compare.
A Bear Grizzly ( JUST A DAMN EXAMPLE, DONT JUMP DOWN MY tHROAT GRIZZLY FANS) may be smooth as butter for one guy, but stacks like hell to a guy used to a different bow....know what I mean?
62" one peice recurve. its dead on 65# @ my 30" draw. bamboo is in the core.... its a mojostik.
i shoot this bow a lot better then my other. maybe i'm just being too picky.
QuoteOriginally posted by straitera:
Just a thought. If your groups are tight for a few dozen arrows, why not exercise yourself into the stack or extra weight? Sounds simple fix to what otherwise may not.
Same bow, same draw; but, done at 1/3 intervals & hold for a 3 count until full & 1/3 intervals back down. 10 reps w/each hand. (try 3 sets each hand) That is, draw the same intervals with the opposite hand using the string also. Quick fix in a week or less.
This...
You could have the bow scaled to see if it does stack the last couple inches at the end of your draw.I have scaled a few bows that gained 6-7 pounds from 28-29 inches.
Perhaps you are getting tired after those few dozen shots.I would knock it off at that point.
You do not want to ever get into the habit of short drawing your bow.It can become a severe shooting malady thats hard to turn around.Do not go down that road!!!
Perhaps your bow is a bit heavy for you even if it does not stack.You might drop down a few pounds.
Your much better always getting to full draw with a lighter bow than coming up short with one thats too heavy.
You will get very good performance with the extra inch of draw length vs one thats too heavy and your coming up short and not getting a smooth release and or dynamic release which adds speed,a sweet feel and quietness as well to your bow.
last week i started drawing my bow left handed to try to build strength.....
i used to always shoot one arrow and go pull it and shot it again then go pull it again. for some reason i have got into the grouping mentality for some reason. (this is when i started noticing thoes last few inches) i think i'll start back with the one arrow and then go pull it method. as well as drawing lefty.
If the bow is marked for a 28" draw then it could very well be stacking at 30"
What kind of string angle in relation to your limb tip are you getting at full draw? Past perpendicular and you'll have stack.
QuoteOriginally posted by mmgrode:
What kind of string angle in relation to your limb tip are you getting at full draw? Past perpendicular and you'll have stack.
I was thinking that too as I read down through this thread.
QuoteOriginally posted by mmgrode:
What kind of string angle in relation to your limb tip are you getting at full draw? Past perpendicular and you'll have stack.
I don't know what that means. How do you check?
I would say over bowed. Try a lighter pound bow, at least 10# lighter if you can.
Blaine, you seemed to be shooting it good at my place!!!
Past perpendicular and the string is actually pulling the limb outward (out from the tips) instead of backward thus increasing the draw weight dramatically, but not gaining performance at the normal rate. That increase in draw weight over and above the normal draw weight gain per inch of draw is stack. (ex: bow normally gains 3 lbs per inch of draw length up to 28". At 28" the string angle becomes perpendicular, so each of the last two inches of draw to 30" each gain 5-6 lbs. )
Draw the bow to your full draw in front of a mirror (side view). Look at the angle the string makes with the limb tip. Or you could set up a camera and take the picture at full draw.
Let us know what you find.
Cheers, Matt
Doesn't matter; you're either overbowed at full draw or you aren't. "Stack" is just how the draw feels.
65# @ 30" ? If it is less that 60# @ 28" it's stack.
I agree that at that weight it is probably just a lot of bow for you, In which case you need to work at weight, have the bow trimmed down a bit, or find a lighter bow..
I use to have a 70# @ 28 Howatt Hunter around.. I kept it just for strength training, and shot and hunt with 50-55 @ 28 bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Blaino:
62" one peice recurve. its dead on 65# @ my 30" draw.
A lot depends on the design of the bow, but many 62" bows will begin to stack beyond 28" draw.
Take a 2X2 about six feet long and put a piece of heavy dowel (at least 7/16" at one end slightly angled up. Then mark the 2X2 from the dowel on down it's face to about 32". Put the foot of the 2X2 on the bathroom scale with the bow hanging by the string at the nocking point. Zero the scale with the weight of the bow and the stick on it and then draw it down while reading the scale. write down the weights starting at 24" and every inch after that point till you get to 31 or 32.
At some point in that range the bow is going to start stacking and you should be able to pinpoint where. This is a theoretical Force Draw curve that shows what stack looks like.
(http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac170/longcruise/Archery/Theofdcurve.jpg)
At 30" draw you may be a candidate for a bow that better fits your stature.
QuoteOriginally posted by Blaino:
62" one peice recurve. its dead on 65# @ my 30" draw. bamboo is in the core.... its a mojostik.
i shoot this bow a lot better then my other. maybe i'm just being too picky.
Since the bow is 65# @ 30", that's a lot of weight. Since you said the last two inches seems to be tough on you, I'm "guessing" you're overbowed.
Do you have a picture of you at full draw with that bow you can post? That will tell the story on string angle and if she's stacking or not. Kirk
Stack can make a difference too. I have several bows that are the same weight. Some feel lighter than others because of where the weight is in your draw.
I'm thinking it's a feel thing because I am shooting better now then I ever have. I'll try and get my wife to take a picture to post.
The reason you shoot better one arrow at a time, then go pull it, is the bow is too heavy for you. The time you take to walk to and from the target, short as it may seem, allows your muscles to recover enough to be ready for the next round of being taxed to their max.
Not having the bow weighed and recording what the gain is for each inch after 28 will forever keep the answer to this in the dark. I agree with others who suggest getting it weighed. Then at least you will know what your bow does regardless of how it "feels" and go from there.
I thought what Fred Eichler said about bow weight is interesting- he is 6-2 and over 200lbs and shoots a 54# recurve, even if he can shoot much heavier bows. His accuracy under real conditions is much better. He should know. The other point he made is it is difficult to get in enough practice shooting when over-bowed, as your form and stamina degrade much sooner.
Joshua
As a heavy bow shooter, I have a suggestion. Do like one of the other gents recommended. Work on your strength, via a training routine, of drawing and holding. Or get a little heavier bow. After a while you 65# at 30" will be just fine.
How I got up to the weights that I draw is that I always had a "strength bow" for training. It was always 5#-10# heavier than what I could shoot comfortably.
Then my "go to bow" was a breeze to shoot.
My 2 Cents.
Matt
i remember the early days when i used to think,
"I shoot heavy weight bows much better than light weight bows."
The reason for that was that i was pulling my maximum weight, and dropping the string when i couldn't hold it any longer. it was pretty darn consistent too.
it's easier getting off the string smooth with a heavier bow. You just hold till your eyeballs start popping out, and your finger go numb, and the string just naturally slides off your glove slick as a whistle. :biglaugh:
All humor aside here. I think you may have a little bit of both going on here. a 30" draw on a 62" bow is pushing the envelope on getting a decent string angle unless it's designed for a longer draw. i can get a hybrid long bow going out past 30" with no stack, but recurve's need longer risers to pull that one off.
how about posting a photo of your bow drawn to 30"? it's actually quite noticeable in a photo.
Here is a good example of two 60" bows. one is built for a longer draw length. look at the string angle and where the limbs are bending.
Hopefully you'll find this helpful. Kirk
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Paul%20s%20Sasquatch/PaulsBow002-14-1.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Paul%20s%20Sasquatch/PaulsBow007-15-1.jpg)
I just made a video of me shooting. Is there anyone I can email it to so they can post it here?
Kirk- will the video be ok or is a picture needed?
QuoteOriginally posted by Blaino:
Kirk- will the video be ok or is a picture needed?
Video would be excellent. :thumbsup: ... kirk@bigfootbows.com
Could be that you are not using your back muscles enough to draw the bow. Possibly using too much of your bicep and deltoid muscles.
kirk its traveling through cyber land......
QuoteOriginally posted by Kenny New: Could be that you are not using your back muscles enough to draw the bow. Possibly using too much of your bicep and deltoid muscles.
Here is my post from another thread on heavy bows and back muscles. I firmly believe this:
Forrest,
Let me tell you how I started getting into Heavy Bows.
When I switched from Split Finger to Three Under, I realized I could draw more weight. I easily jumped up 10#.
I thought that was curious but I was also enthralled with the flat arrow cast and solid thump of the arrow hitting the target.
So, I bumped up to a higher weight bow. Shazam, I could pull it, as well.
Then, I kept going up and up in draw weight. There seemed to be no end until I hit 120#. That is pretty much where I have stayed.
But, I decided to go back to split finger. So, I started with a light bow (60#) and it was no problem. I had no issues with Split Finger until I hit 100#. Then, I could feel it in my fingers and the carpals of my wrist. So, I laid off 100#, for a while, and went back down to 80#.
After that became easy, I went back to 100#, and then back to 120#, using split.
A few other points;
1) God made me naturally stout. Strength was never a problem for me. But, I was never a long distance runner either.
2) I shoot long bows. My heavy bows are all over 66" – 72"long. So, there is plenty of draw before stacking starts to creep in.
3) Because of the long bows, I am able to go past "arm strength" and into "back muscle strength". I tried to shoot a 62" 112# at 28" Recurve. The stacking was so severe, early in the draw, that I could not recruit my back muscles. I did not like that short length at all.
4) Go both ways: Leo Markert taught me this. Get a lefty and a righty bow. Make sure you can shoot both sides. Muscle Balance is key. The "Odd" side does not have to be as heavy as your "normal" side. But, you need to work them both.
5) Use it or lose it. Once you build up strength, keep shooting. Or, it will go away.
Comment about injuries and warm up: I have a torn rotator cuff (just like everyone else). Because I use my back muscles, so much, in the draw I do not feel any discomfort when drawing the bow. I can draw 80#, 100#, or even 120# cold. But, that is not too smart. So, I do warm up a bit. I draw the bow a few times to half draw, then a few times to 3/4, and then up to full draw.
Anecdotal comment: I feel that drawing heavy weight bows has as much to do with "Muscle Memory" as anything else.
For example: Pull Ups. I could "lat pull down" more than my body weight but I couldn't do a pull up. I kept going to the "pull up" machine and working them. That was fine as long as I was on the machine. As soon as I tried the "free bar", nothing. Then a body builder buddy said "that machine is worthless", "pull ups are about muscle memory". He told me to jump up to the pull up position and "hang" as long as I could, every day for 2 weeks. Then, he told me to try one pull up. Bingo, I could do one. Then, he told me do one pull up a day, every day, I came into the gym for two more weeks. After two weeks, I could now do five in a row. And the story continues like that.....
So, after all these heavy bow draws, I have the muscle memory to do it. I can recruit more muscle into the draw, thus it gets easier and easier.
My 2 cents.
Matt
matt- can i email you my video and you tell me what you think?
Sure, send it to mhamilton@jacobshomes.com
Love to see it.
Here is an old video of mine.
(//%5Burl=http://s912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/Asgard2010/?action=view¤t=VID00002-20110206-1419.mp4%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/Asgard2010/th_VID00002-20110206-1419.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Here is a newer one showing a 83#, 100# and 120# Bow and arrow penetration.
Matt
(//%5Burl=http://s912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/Asgard2010/?action=view¤t=CIMG7222.mp4%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/Asgard2010/th_CIMG7222.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Here is Blaine's video.
Matt
(//%5Burl=http://s912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/Asgard2010/?action=view¤t=IMG_0451.mp4%5D%20%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/Asgard2010/th_IMG_0451.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
I did a pause on all three of your shots and put a 90deg square up to the screen on each. Of course, camera angles and the cant of the bow and who knows what other cyber factors might be involved, but you did not approach a 90deg angle on any of those shots. Going to say that if you feel this discomfort you described you may be a bit over-bowed.
definitely overbowed!
What's 90 degree?? I don't know what that means.
I'll also add that at 10-12 yards types tree shafts were touching. At the end of the video I point to the target to get my wife to show the group but she cut it off....
Blaine, your string angle looks fine...no stacking from what I could see. I'd try a lighter bow and see if that's the problem. I can tell you from experience that too heavy a bow can lead to bad habits that are hard to break.
Gents,
I may have to disagree here. The man is 6'4" with a 30" draw, perhaps more. I don't think he is over bowed. Look at him. He is a big strapping young dude.
I think he needs a Longer Bow.
It is a JD Lund bow. I have love JD's bows. I have a Mojostick that you will have to pry out of my dead hands.
But I ran up against a JD Lund 62" 112# at 28", that I could not draw.
I bet the 62" bow stacks like a Mutha at 30".
Put a 68" longbow in his hands, I think he could pull 65# all day long.
My 2 cents.
Matt
I agree Matt.... a bow doesn't need to hit 90 degrees before it starts stacking.... if you watch that video in slow motion you can see the pressure on the fades just after 28". i down loaded this into an editing software and looked at it frame by frame.... the bow is stacking.IMO
I'd bet good money she jumps 6-7 pounds in the last two inches.
i sent you an email with that edited clip Blaino. Kirk
this is a two frame video. you'll need to watch it a half dozen times to see what's going on here. watch that lower limb when he drops the string.
(//%5Burl=http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Archery%20videos/?action=view¤t=Stackingpoint.mp4%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Archery%20videos/th_Stackingpoint.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
I agree Matt.... a bow doesn't need to hit 90 degrees before it starts stacking.... if you watch that video in slow motion you can see the pressure on the fades just after 28". i down loaded this into an editing software and looked at it frame by frame.... the bow is stacking.IMO
I'd bet good money she jumps 6-7 pounds in the last two inches.
i sent you an email with that edited clip Blaino. Kirk
Kirk,
I think this may be the first time anyone has ever agreed with me. And it is great that it is a Bowyer. I will mark it on my calendar.
I would be curious to see him shoot a longer "longbow" or a longer "recurve".
Matt
put one in my hands and i'll shoot the heck out of it!!! :laughing:
Her ya go Blaino... This shows you two different bows and the different string angles. the recurve with the sharper string angle is just starting to stack up.
The thing to look at here is where the limbs are bending.... typically as a rule of thumb the string angle dictates when the bow stacks....
BUT.... How the limb loads up depends on the geometry of the limb design, the length of the "working portion of the limb", and where that working limb section is located.
You do not need a longer bow at all.... just a bow that is designed to draw to 31-32" without staking up on you. Both of these bows are being drawn to 29". The lower bow is only 60" long and that design draws to 32"
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Paul%20s%20Sasquatch/PaulsBow007-15-1.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Paul%20s%20Sasquatch/PaulsBow002-14-1.jpg)
Okay, I will modify my statement according to Kirk's comment.
You don't need a longer bow, you just need one designed for your draw length.
Matt
I find the behaviour of that lower limb to be very strange. :confused: Is it really leading off against the upper limb as much as it appears. Wonder what that says about the design of that bow?
Kirk, you make an excellent case for the bow stacking but I'd still like to see an fd curve on it. Your pics of the two recurves are especially enlightening.
When I look at the video and pause it, the angle appears way under 90 deg. But, the cant of the bow could give that appearance.
sit on a chair, lift your feet slightlyoff the ground and draw it back. If you can pull it back you're overbowed
So if your not overbowed you shouldn't be able to pull the bow back with your feet off the ground. That makes no sense to me?
Could it be too much weight, if your tired after 3 doz arrows. It is the weight. As hard as it may seem, it takes time to work up in weight. First, shoot every other day, or rest two days. Shoot for form only, without a target. Sometimes targets force you to think about aiming, when you should be working on form as you build up to a heavier bow. Otherwise, your reinforcing bad habits.
To work out with a heavier bow, without an arrow, draw back 12", stop, then continue drawing to 18" stop/hold, then to full draw stop/hold. Reverse the process letting down. Repeat 3-5 times RH, then LH. If it is hard, then you are looking at too much weight, and you should repeat this exercise, no more than a few times a week. Increase it gradually. Be conscious of any pain in the shoulders, or elbows on off days,or after a day of rest. Rest is important, that is when the muscles gain strength. If you lift your arms above you shoulders, or rotate and feel pain, stop. You may experience rotator cuff impingement if you try to work thru the pain. Rest and don't shoot until, it feels better.
QuoteOriginally posted by rrowslngr:
So if your not overbowed you shouldn't be able to pull the bow back with your feet off the ground. That makes no sense to me?
Okay, I tried the feet off the ground thing. First I drew a 60# while standing, then sitting with feet off the ground. No difference.
Then, I drew an 85# bow while standing, then sitting with feet off the ground. No difference. I will string up a 100# HH in the morning and try that.
Matt
If I had a 100# bow I don't think I could draw it sitting or standing. Your a beast Matt! I'm glad someone else didn't get that theory.
Okay, did the 100# bow thing.
100# is not that easy to draw standing, much less sitting.
Pulling my feet off the ground just made it awkward. Doable, but awkward.
Matt
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