Well I made the mistake of shooting a few bare shaft to see how it looked and it was horendously over spined. But fletched they fly like death missles on a mission. I know I've seen threads on this before but my phone won't search the forum. So if you got arras that hit dead where you want do u worry about it?
Yes it will eventually cost you.
Rig up an arrow/point combo that has a weaker spined shaft that does bareshaft correctly. Fletch with chartreuse fletchings, and do the same with some of your existing arrows. Shoot both for a while, and you will see a difference.
In my book if your not properly bareshafted then you are taking a big chance. I see this all the time, people think their arrows are correct until they finally try bareshafting. Very seldom will your arrows be correct without bareshafting.
Troy
If they fly perfectly, then they fly perfectly. Bare shafting may help you get that perfect combination, but really I've never had much success bare shafting. My form probably isn't good enough.
I will say, there is a difference in arrows I once thought flew great and arrows that really do fly great.
I have never used bareshafting because of so many variables. For interesting reading go www.elitearrows.com (http://www.elitearrows.com) and read what Paul has to say.
Mount some broadheads and shoot 3 broad heads and 3 field points at 20 or 25 yards and see what you get. If all 6 group where you are looking i would say you are good to go.
You can get an arrow far enough overspined that it will fly straight again. The problem is it will shoot progressively farther left (for a right handed shooter) the farther you get from your target.
It's a shooting variable that you have the opportunity to eliminate through proper tuning.
What did people do before bareshafting?
With bare shafting, your arrow release has to be very good. If it isn't, bare shafting is going to frustrate and aggravate.
I tune my arrows to my bows with Stu Miller's free calculator program. It will give me the same results as bare shafting gives since I've compared it (tested) the shot bare shaft arrows against Stu's calculator, but Stu's program will give me the same results in one quarter of the time. So, I don't use bare shaft tuning anymore. I guess I'm lucky my arrow release is good.
Once caveat. The correct info has to be put into Stu's calculator program and if one or two boxes of info is incorrect, it will throw your arrow selection way off.
every person is diff.
for me Stu calculator has been a GREAT starting point. it gets me in the ball park.
then i start playing with tip weight from there. i go up or down in weight untill they bareshaft perfect. then i fletch.
i thought i was shooting good groups until i learned how to baresharft an arrow. now my acuracy is so much better than before.
In the beginning there was only bareshafting.........people put feathers on the shaft to get better flight more easily. You should be able to shoot arrows without fletching using FP's and get really good flight. Hold the bow straight vertical, relax and focus on your release. Bareshafting at under 15 yds or less won't tell you the full story BTW.
Once the feathers are on they will hide a multitude of sins.
Shooting through paper and looking at the tears works well too and you do not need to shoot out to 25 yds.
I drove myself nuts bareshafting for 3 years when I got into traditional bowhunting. I could get all my arrows grouping together at 20 yards but always had the bareshafts flying nock right. I was unable to get over that flaw and constantly stressed over it. I suspect it's a form issue as the result is the same with field points ranging from 150 - 225 gr. At the start of this season I screwed my broadheads on and fired away. Good arrow flight and they landed with the field tips - finally I gave up bareshafting and have been happier as a result. lol. Interestingly, my set-up is dead on with Stu's calculator (once I figured out the right way to input insert weight). I set up a new bow and some 600 spine arrows matching the data - end result was great broadhead flight without the stress of my previous experiments......
Bareshafting is just one of many ways to tune your bow properly. The bottom line is, if your broaheads fly tru and impact the same point as your field points, then you are tuned.
I am a bareshaft tuning fanatic by the way!!
bareshafting is important and honestly overspined should put a smile on your face because now you can double that point weight,, when its underspined thats when it really stinks.
bareshafting is not critical to make a good hit where accuracy is,,, bareshafting is only critical in utilizing every bit of your bow set-up and your arrows energy,,, ALSO bareshafting is also nice because once perfect flight is achieved you can then use any broadhead vs any fletch and if you get rained on and your 5.5" highback shields lay down flat you will still get perfect flight even with a huge 2" broadhead.
I just bareshaft tuned some heritage 90's to my new used treadway blackforest and now its set up with 2" wide treesharks and 3 4" parabolic feathers and they fly like lazer beams..
I'm with A.S.. If the broadheads are flying great, you've done well! I also paper-tune my broadheads... It's not for everyone, but it gives me peace of mind and confidence :) !
I've done most of my fiddling with two different recurves, very similar in weight. and Carbon Express 250's (.375 spine) and 150's (.487 spine).
I started with the 250's because that's what the charts and stu's calc. said. I kept adding point weight till I finally go bare shafts grouping with fletched shafts with 250 grain points.
Later on a whim I bought some 150's and they far outperform the 250's even when they are set up to have the same dynamic spine. I have a 250 and a 150 both set up to 46 lbs dynamic spine in stu's calculator, and the 150 shoots straight, bullet holes in paper, could shoot a 3d tourney with bare shafts. The 250 clearly corkscrews in flight.
BTW Stu's Calc. says I need 75-80 lbs dynamic spine.
1st -May use Stu's calc to get me in the ball park.
2nd - I bareshaft to get me close
3rd - I use BH's to tell me the truth
Typically when I bareshaft 25 to 30 yard, then my 3BL 1 1/2 "BH's are likely to be on or possibly require merely minimal adjustment.
Often times I skip bareshafting and go straight to BH tuning if I am reasonably confident. No tuning method provides me the confidence that BH tuning does. Tuned BH's are the bottom line.
Lots of people think the arrows fly like "darts"...till they take the feathers off LOL Just about anything will fly with 5" feathers.
Problems come from people trying to combine the bs planing method with trying to acheive perfect bs flight. It doesn't seem to matter how many time the difference is explained, and it's simplicity, many fail to understand it.
Put big feathers on the arrow and you can shoot almost anything. Bare shafting, in my mind, is not critical, and maybe not even important. It is fine tuning, and if you are into that, listen up because several of these guys are good at it.
But. . . a stock Corvette goes plenty fast and drives plenty sporty for me. . fine tune it ? for me. . why. for another. hell yes !
If you are getting good arrow flight with broadheads. . well. . . . . . go hunt.
ChuckC
I never bare shaft......and I have no problems with arrow flight or penetration from bunnies to whitetails to hogs to 2000 pound bison.....but that's just me.......bare shafting may be needed for some by all means.....but I've never seen the need for me.
If I have good arrow flight with my set up I run with it.......and it has served me well.
Terry...Many professionals take privalages in their trade that seem to go against the grain because they possess elevated skills.
In no way am I trying to convey to you nor anyone else that I am being a wisenheimer. I too, wish learn something from your feedback.
What advice would you provide the author of this post in order to acquire optimum flight?
Its a process for me. I BH tune and they hit with FPs. Bareshaft tuning, well, lets say I can get it decently close with my current form. If I can get BH to group with FP then, given good arrow weight, I hunt. After season, I will again start tinkering with tuning a bit.
A good shooter can cover a multitude of tuning sins as has been proven with competition shooters, and slow mo photography
Good luck!
Brian.
Well here's my thought I put some 125 gr heads on my axis .400@28.5 inches drawn to 28in @ 57 lbs and holy goodness they flew like rockets I usually shoot 200 up front so I thought I'd just see how it looked and wow big deal even my 200 were really stiff but man they fly dead nuts. However if efficient is always better the less it works the faster it should shoot right?
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob W.:
What did people do before bareshafting?
To answer your question we used to shoot wood, fiberglass and aluminum arrows which gave you much more variation in shaft spine and the use of a good chart would put you where you needed to be. Check the chart, cut to length, fletch and shoot.
Carbons have less variation on spine so you need to bareshaft and fool with point weight and shaft length to dial them in.
I believe in bare shaft testing
Back in the day (I know, hush up and go back to the day). . we used to change to broadheads well before the last few days before the hunt. Our arrows flew well (we shot them, they either flew well or we got others that did)and we practiced with them. It was fairly well presumed that they wouldn't fly the same as a field point, so you actually checked.
After practicing with broadheads, we hunted. Period.
I am trying to make a point here. That is, sometimes we think too much and strive for too much perfection.
A question. . if carbons are truly that much more perfect, "have less variation in spine" wouldn't it make sense that a chart would guide you even better than the wood, fiberglass, and metal shafts, which had more variation ?
Why did our arrows of old fly fine when they had so much inherent variation, but now they can't possibly fly fine unless we dial them in with serious fine tuning.
Why did we even go to using feathers, or leaves or some sort of guides on our arrows and not simply bare shaft tune them ?
If the fletched arrows fly well with broadheads, what difference does it make if they bareshaft or not ?
I know. . to achieve Zen-like perfect flight. Good luck. My head hurts already.
ChuckC
I have been able to shoot real weak HFOC arrows and ones over stiff with carbon and get decent flight. The ones that bare shaft fly the best and allow the most forgiveness. The way I figure it if it flies well without feathers it will fly great with them. If you need a bunch of feather or a high level of consistence to shoot well then what happens when you get a little off your form or your feathers are wet? In the past I have had a tendency to be too stiff. It has always caused the most problems with a little change in my form, grip, or release. If your arrow is coming off your riser and maybe your rest it will do all kinds of stuff with little changes. I have found I don't need perfect form or prefect release to bare shaft. I just have to be reasonably consistent. I actually have to be less consistent with the right spine shaft.
Chuckc
It is not that hard a thing to get. If an arrow flies great with a field point and the broadhead, then that is great. You are probably set provided they go to the same place that is. If your arrow doesn't fly great or has consistency issues then you need to tune some. A bare shaft is just a way to see what the arrow is doing when it comes off the bow without the feathers correcting or over correcting to confuse the issue. It just tells you what to adjust. It is not rocket science or all that difficult, It really is a fairly simple thing to shoot a bare shaft. It has been around a very long time. It is not new.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to get the best flying arrow you can. It is part of the fun and makes a huge difference in accuracy. The difference between a so so tune and good tune is about half the group size. Well worth the time to me.
I also used to just get wood or aluminum arrows and get them to fly well by the chart. Then shoot broadheads and tinker with them so they shot well. Then just shoot the broadheads to hunt. Honestly I never had that great a tune back then so everything shot to the same place. Now I do.
Wood, aluminum and carbon are way different in the way they react, flex, and how long they take to stabilize. It is not just a thing of consistence in spine you deal with when using different shaft material. If that was all there was to picking a best shaft, aluminum would be king because on a new shaft it is probably more constant than most carbons. Until I crease one which would be about every day.
I think carbon is the hardest to tune for me because it is so quick reacting. As fussy as they can be at times to figure out, in the end, I find then to shot real well and be the least costly to shot and I can get FOC easy.
I can go get carbons about anywhere. I can't get wood arrow anywhere around there and don't hear about big piles of top quality wood shafts for low buck arrows. I don't recall the last time I saw a good selection of aluminum shaft sizes in a store.
Shoot what you like to shoot and how you like to do it.
For the one that would like to have more info on bareshaft tuning, wher can one find a great tutorial? Even beter, a video/dvd on the subject?
Don't know if it is right for you or not... but I dont dare Not bareshaft!!!
Why because it gets me hitting well bare, FP and BH... maybe not perfect, but danged close!!!
But I try to stack the deck using skinny carbons, EFOC, or a well tuned arrow....
Here's a link, the section is about two thirds down the page.
A well tuned arrow will fly better and penetrate better. In order to get maximum penetration and accuracy I find BS tuning to be very helpful. BS tuning is not something anyone 'has' to do-it is a choice. Not everyone sees a need for it, personally I would not bother putting feathers and varnish on a shaft unless I BS tuned it first.
http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
Just ordered some 100 gr brass inserts.... So ill make sure to let ya know how it goes
good feather guidance covers up any sins of the shaft. you can take that to the bank.
with a NEW carbon brand/type/spine, i bare shaft for flight before fletching. once i know how the bare shaft flies, having been cut to my arrow length and with my selected point weight, i'm good to go therein with that particular brand/type/spine of carbon shafting. carbons are extremely consistent and their dynamic spine is very different from their static spine. there COULD be some ROTATIONAL static spine differences with carbons - i've done the random spine checking and found that can be true - but i've found that none of that matters at all since the dynamic spine takes over and they all fly extremely consistently.
so, bare shaft a new kinda carbon, dial it in for straight flight, yer good to go with feather fletchings. since using ad trads and beman ics 500's for the last 5 or 6 years, i've yet had a need to re-test either for bare shaft flight ... but i did so last week with the bemans and absolutely no change in great bare shaft flight.
NOW with ALL woodies, i always spine each one on an ace 107 first, and then bare shaft each one for flight. yep, every one and every time. and then they get fletched or become tomato stakes - woodies can be THAT inconsistent. :D
all bare shafting starts at no more than 10 yards and proceeds to 20 yards. they should all fly like darts on rails, as if they were fletched. aside from the physical attributes of the shaft, the rest is up to the shooter's form. always consider shooting form as part of any arrow flight testing - it's there whether or not we like it, or even admit to it. ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by David Yukon:
For the one that would like to have more info on bareshaft tuning, wher can one find a great tutorial? Even beter, a video/dvd on the subject?
I started getting into bareshaft tuning after watching a blackwidow video where ken beck demonstrated on video in slow motion what to do and how to do it.
check @ black widow bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
I never bareshaft......and I have no problems with arrow flight or penetration from bunnies to whitetails to hogs to 2000 pound bison.....biut that's just me.......bare shafting may be needed for some by all means.....but I've ne er seen the need for me.
If I have good arrow flight with my set up I run with it.......and it has served me well.
Terry,
One of the guys I shoot with semi-regularly is the same way. He can pick up one of my arrows and shoot it out of a bow 20 pounds lighter than mine with no wobble at all. Drives me crazy!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
all bare shafting starts at no more than 10 yards and proceeds to 20 yards. they should all fly like darts on rails, as if they were fletched. aside from the physical attributes of the shaft, the rest is up to the shooter's form. always consider shooting form as part of any arrow flight testing - it's there whether or not we like it, or even admit to it. ;)
true dat... :clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
I never bareshaft......and I have no problems with arrow flight or penetration from bunnies to whitetails to hogs to 2000 pound bison.....biut that's just me.......bare shafting may be needed for some by all means.....but I've ne er seen the need for me.
If I have good arrow flight with my set up I run with it.......and it has served me well.
Terry,
One of the guys I shoot with semi-regularly is the same way. He can pick up one of my arrows and shoot it out of a bow 20 pounds lighter than mine with no wobble at all. Drives me crazy! [/b]
i'm pretty much in the same camp as terry - i can pretty much make *ANY* arrow, any spine, any length, any weight, any ANYTHING work for me as long as i do my part. not everyone can do that (no brag, it just is what it is, for what it is).
however, taking a little bit of time to get a shaft to fly true without a guidance system means that the fletched shaft will spin relatively true faster after paradox than if the shaft wasn't tweaked for straight flight sans fletching. it could also mean a flight difference when the hunting arrow's feathers are soggy wet and near useless - then yer only at the mercy of the broadhead's flight characteristics.
and that's all i do - get the bare shaft to fly straight. i'm not much concerned with where it lands with respect to its feathered kin. if it's synthetic shafting (alums, carbons), i only need to do that ONCE with just one shaft and never again. with organic shafting (woodies, cane) i've learnt to check each one. as always, ymmv! :)