All,
Dont know if this is approved or not??? I found these online they are two part arrows. Anybody seen anything like this before. Would be pretty cool for back packs, or whatever.
http://stores.thepathfinderschoolllc.com/-strse-213/Sling-Bow-take-down/Detail.bok
C
I dont think they would stand up to a 40# or higher bow, pluss they have to be pretty stif and fly like crap with that adapter in the middle of the shaft. Doesnt seem to be a safe arrow for a bow.JMHO And shooting an arrow out of a slingshot seems pretty dangerous and stupid to me.again JMHO
I'll "pass" on take down arrows.
Just what we need, more gadgets.
I made a dozen cedar take down arrows about 15 years ago just as an experiment. They flew great and in fact myself and illianabowhunter shot some of them just an hour ago! I would hate to guess how many shots they have taken but I am sure it is in the thousands.
They take some serious time to build and I am not sure what there good for other than they have a "cool" factor going for them! As far as flight there no different than any other arrow.
Been out a long time. I think "Too Short" (Paul Bruner) may have sold them when he had his Screaming Eagle store many moons ago.
wasnt trying to sell them or anything guys. Just thought they were sort of neat and wanted to share. LOL
C
Stallone used them in Rambo II with high explosive heads. :saywhat: Seemed to work for him. :laughing:
I made some a few years ago, seems like maybe a good idea for backpackers. Mine worked fine.
I made these a few years ago out of .308 Bear Magnum aluminum shafts.They shoot and tune like anything else.The joint makes them a little stiffer.It just takes a little more point weight to bring them in.I shot them a good bit but never got around to carrying them.They can go in a plastic tube and stow in a fanny pack or day pack as spares-theoretically.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/jbrandenburg/DSC_0013-1.jpg)
Take down arrows are cool! I've seen a couple of article on how to make them, but they can be figured out by the pictures. As said by others, they're more of a novelty, but they work just fine.
There is also a well established tradition of shooting arrows from slinghots, they're deadly and effective. At Mojam, Rattling Randy had some interesting prototypes of hunting weight slingshots. They looked effective and I think they're good for medium sized animals.
I would have never dreamed of 2 piece arrows!
I had a fiend back in the 80's who would take bent aluminums and cut them, add insert and screw them together to make complete arrows. They shot great and save him a bunch of $$$$.
Interesting! But I think that I will stick with my one piece arrows.
the 2009 suspense/adventure movie "the perfect getaway" features a hawaiian goat hunt using t/d arrows and t/d bow. i see no viable use or need for t/d arrows unless yer part of some covert assassin organization. :D
I have a buddy of mine that has permission to hunt a small woodlot at the end of a cul de sac IN a subdivision (deer eat the neighbor's flowers). He can fit his bear T/D and takedown arrows in a backpack and looks like he is just off for an afternoon hike. When he kills he field quarters them and waits till dark to bring them out. That way he doesn't offend anyone in the subdivision. They just think he's a crazy old hiker.
They are pretty neat and have held up to his 70# Bear.
QuoteOriginally posted by bawana bowman:
Stallone used them in Rambo II with high explosive heads. :saywhat: Seemed to work for him. :laughing:
You, sir, are awesome. :laughing:
I made some out of Al for friend 20 years ago. He used to pack his bow and arrows in the saddle bags on his bike.
I ended up using a slip fit as it was far easier to make, tune, and use. Plus they were straight. A threaded joint is really a pain to get aligned and straight.
They were cool and shot just fine. The spine change was so minor as to be non existant. I always made the joint at balance point and installed the additional pieces so they wouldn't change the balance point/FOC.
I had never even thought about a take down arrow, so I learned something today.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tree Rat:
I made some out of Al for friend 20 years ago. He used to pack his bow and arrows in the saddle bags on his bike.
I ended up using a slip fit as it was far easier to make, tune, and use. Plus they were straight. A threaded joint is really a pain to get aligned and straight.
They were cool and shot just fine. The spine change was so minor as to be non existant. I always made the joint at balance point and installed the additional pieces so they wouldn't change the balance point/FOC.
That's the way my buddy did it. Inside 20 yards they shot the same. Usually his shot was inside 15 yards.
Kind of cool. But thinking the joint would be a weak spot. Still kind of cool.
I think takedown bows and takedown arrows are a natural match for traveling and/or backpacking. The only reason I have to use a longer piece of baggage for my hunting trips (flying) is due to the 32 to 36 inch arrow case. I'd much prefer a shorter duffel. If anyone ever develops a first class td arrow system, I'd be all-in.
i'd think it's fairly easy to make a t/d carbon or alum. cut the finished arrow in half, then use a pair of point inserts into each cut end, and piece of threaded rod as a coupler (glue the rod into one of the inserts). tweak for the best spine - i don't think the added coupling weight would be more than 50-70 grains. for that matter, one could use a smaller diameter tail end than front end, for a kinda tapered arrow. hmmm ....
Thats a Pretty Nifty Idea! I like the Alum. Example, but would LOVE to see the Cedar Example too!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
i'd think it's fairly easy to make a t/d carbon or alum. cut the finished arrow in half, then use a pair of point inserts into each cut end, and piece of threaded rod as a coupler (glue the rod into one of the inserts). tweak for the best spine - i don't think the added coupling weight would be more than 50-70 grains. for that matter, one could use a smaller diameter tail end than front end, for a kinda tapered arrow. hmmm ....
Or a thinner walled for the back end ie; 2016/2013
increases FOC?.....
Shakes, there was an article in an old magazine about making wooden takedown arrows. It involves tubing, either brass or aluminum. Probably the right sized aluminum shaft will work. They had to be aligned properly due to the grain in the wood, but they seemed just as easy as the ones above.
i just whipped one up. it works just fine, shot out of a 52# longbow. i didn't have any spine issues either bare shaft or with these 5.25" full helicals i burnt.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/tda1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/tda2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/tda3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/tda4.jpg)
Those are neat, and if you want a practical use for them, go chase bear or lions with hounds, you'll find that take down anythings are life savers. It's nice to have 2 hands for that :)
Hey Rob...nice job! I'm starting to become a believer....
i dunno how it would be best to make a t/d woodie, i think that'd be tough to get the sections to join smoothly. :dunno:
but for a carbon or alum it's really too easy. i cut the shaft in two with a carbide wheel on a dremel, square up the ends on a sanding wheel, epoxy the inserts. the one i just made, i evenly bisected the carbon shafting and did not take into account the nock and point lengths. i'm gonna do another, but this time bisect the completed arrow, and maybe go 1/2" to 1" further forward for the cut - make it a tad more weight forward.
got to make for a most compact, stealth bow and arrow - a 3pc 58" or so t/d recurve or longbow and a pack of these little t/d arrows. :D
Rob, ole bud....does this mean you've joined up with a dark side Assassin crew? :laughing:
Didn't Van/Tx do something like that with wood and and alum joiner?
Here's an example of the wood t/d arrows that used to be available at Screaming Eagle (Paul Brunner-too short)...they belong to a buddy that worked for Paul at SE here in Missoula back in the day.
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/cuffnstuff06/takedown%20arrow/IMG_1259.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/cuffnstuff06/takedown%20arrow/IMG_1258.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/cuffnstuff06/takedown%20arrow/IMG_1257.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/cuffnstuff06/takedown%20arrow/IMG_1256.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/cuffnstuff06/takedown%20arrow/IMG_1255.jpg)
These were made to slip fit using two different sizes of aluminum shaft. The cut-in-half wood shaft is reduced in diameter for each shaft size, the smaller obviously slip fitting inside the larger....the larger is exactly the same diameter as the wood shaft. These are really well done and have a super tight fit and seemless transition.
-Rob
The portability / compactness aspect is appealing.
One of the reasons I consider my current takedown bow case:
(http://www.3riversarchery.com/images/Contest2010/WilliamAdamsTakeDownCase.jpg)
a prototype, is that it's too small to accommodate arrows for my 29" draw length --- the next version will be 34 and a half by 11 and a half by 3 and a half inches. (The other reason is I want to use nicer, solid brass hardware --- if someone knows of a source for small solid brass draw catches let me know.)
Is there a size of carbon shafts which will nestle inside Carbon Express Heritage 150 arrows? If so, would that be "livelier" than an aluminum insert?
I love innovation. If Rob DiStefano likes it, that is all the recommendation I need.
Matt
Interesting thoughts. One thing that occurred to me:
I would consider making the cut below the fletch somewhere...probably at my cresting (yes, I hand-crest my Bemans). The shaft would not be split exactly in the middle which is theoretically where the most flex (stress) occurs. I would then be able to use my cresting design to conceal the joint. The end result would still be arrows that are much easier to travel with, or backpack, and they would still have the aesthetic appeal of a one-piece arrow.
Wow, Rob, I think you just may be on to something right there. That is a really nifty idea. Heck man, make'em and sell'em!
be interesting to see how a rear sectioned t/d arrow performs. the other question is, how long will the longest section be?
fwiw, i just made a pair of carbon t/d arrows that are cut asymmetrically with regards to the shaft itself, but will render equal halves when the nock and broadhead lengths are added into the equation. the results for a 29" arrow is a 13-1/2" front end and 15" back end (for the shaft alone). i'm waiting for the epoxy to fully cure on the insert adapters, and then will test out both types (bare shaft and with 5-1/4" full helical burnt fletches), to see how they fly and perform. i need to also compare 1pc and 2pc arrow weights and foc. the fun never ends, eh? :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/tda9.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/tda8.jpg)
that woodie t/d arrow appears to be all about carefully turning down the cut ends. not easy, i'd think, with what's an 11/32" dowel. plus, there is no locking of the aluminium sleeves, and it's a friction fit all the way. if a section of woodie could be chucked into a lathe and then dead center drilled for pair of glued-in bushings, that might just work. :dunno:
If you watch one of his videos he talks about how the cut/joint needs to be made front of center.
I'd post it but I did that last week and the thread got pulled. Search Youtube for "SlingBow DVD"
QuoteOriginally posted by MikeW:
If you watch one of his videos he talks about how the cut/joint needs to be made front of center.
I'd post it but I did that last week and the thread got pulled. Search Youtube for "SlingBow DVD"
your topic post was removed because it had nothing at all to do with traditional archery/bowhunting, sorry. we'd do the same for atlatls and xbows and blowguns etc.
you do NOT need to cut the shaft in any particular place for "foc balance". the feller in that utube video appears to have no clue about arrows and traditional bows.
for the 29" feathered t/d arrow in the above pics ...- the twin alum insert and 1-1/8" 8-32 thread steel rod weigh about 75gr.
- with 250gr up front, the foc is 22.2%.
- with a 125gr point it's almost 16%.
the 29" beman ics 500 hunter/venture, w/3-fletch + point insert and no point digitally weighs 334grs. adding a 250gr point makes the mass weight 584 grains.
Rob,
Is that a piece of all-thread beteween the inserts?
If you guys say these shoot OK then I'm a believer but the anal retentive me wants to think the joint won't flex and will affect paradox. Kind of like and old style fishing rod ferrule before the ones that flexed.
You might be correct. Best way to know is check point of impact on t/d vs 1 pc arrows. Proof is in the pudding. Even a difference in POI might not be a deal breaker.
If the joint in the middle of the shaft doesn't flex like the original shaft,you have a stiffer shaft.You just tune with more point weight.
Since this thread started,I took mine out and shot them a couple times.I hadn't touched them for 2 or three years.I couldn't remember how much tuning I did initially but did see that they had 200 gr points and that isn't a common weight for me.They shot very well and seem to fly straight.I found one that was uncut and it had a 145 gr point on and they all grouped together.I don't have a bare shaft one.
The joint seems to have added app. 74-75 grs.
It would be interesting to put them on a spine tester,before and after.
carbon arrow spec's -
2 t/d beman 500 ics, 29", 250gr fp, bare=568grs, fletched=586grs
2 1pc beman 500 ics, 29", 250gr fp, bare=500grs, fletched=515grs
bow specs-
66", 52@29 mohawk sparrowhawk, d'02 8 strand bowstring, split finger release.
addendum -
all four 29" arrows were static spine tested on an ace model 107 spine-spine tester at .530 - there was no measured spine increase on the sectioned t/d arrows. the t/d arrow sections will all fit inside of 16".
test results -
i just spent over an hour shooting the t/d carbons and their 1pc twins. i was surprised to find no difference in arrow flight with the bare shafts at 10 yards. i mean NO difference. i know, i Know, i KNOW - there's a really stiff 2" center section on the t/d's that you'd think would radically alter the *dynamic* spine (at least i sure thought that would be the case), but i did NOT see, feel or hear any added spine stiffness at all. ditto for the feathered versions. the bare shaft 1 and 2 pc arrows flew beautifully, almost as if they were fletched. i could hit or scare the heck out of a soda can at that 10 yard distance with all four arrows (one each bare/feathered 1pc and t/d). going back to 20 yards the groupings opened but the arrows flew quite well as long as i did my part (form).
my assessment of these particular t/d carbons -
very viable, work like a 1pc for me, adds about 75gr to the arrow's mass weight, loses about 2-4% foc - if the shaft is cut so that the rear length is about 52-55% of the total shaft (not arrow). i still have no current need or use for t/d "stealth" arrows, but this was an interesting and fun project.
Now let's see a three piece!
QuoteOriginally posted by Sean Butler:
Now let's see a three piece!
heck, a four piece. why not? it'll work just fine! :D
My wife and I usually go backpacking for about a month every summer. I'd like to take along a lightweight takedown bow and takedown arrows, as I miss shooting my bow during the month we're gone. It would have to pay for itself, though, by harvesting enough small game to justify the weight of carrying it. We catch fish just about every night, and the weight of the fishing gear more than pays for itself, but even fresh trout gets a little tiring after 10 days in a row of it, and some roasted rabbit would be a welcome change.
that'd work out fine, mcdave. a cheap little 58" 3pc recurve, a six pack of t/d carbons, it'll all fit inside of about a 20-22" sack.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
Rob,
Is that a piece of all-thread beteween the inserts?
yessir, sorta - steel, 1-1/8", 8-32. i used a dremel w/carbide wheel to sheer off a machine screw's head to make it thread-only.
You can buy 8-32 all thread in many real hardware stores...usually in 2-3' sections for pretty cheap.
GT used to use them for their weight system so I found some in a hardware store pretty cheap.
Wonder if I still have that somewhere? :)
I've been going to a local archery range NJLOCO recently told me about directly from the job. That means I have to haul my gear with me all day, and to the range on my motorcycle after work. One of my 2pc longbows and a short piece of pvc tubing with 3 t/d arrows will slip right into the backpack I always carry. :thumbsup:
These will make life much easier for me. Thanks!
I have thought about the "two insert, threaded rod" method many times, but it's too sloppy for me. Unless you cut the threads yourself, you're at the mercy of mass produced (usually sloppy chi-com) hardware.....maybe if you faced the two inserts off in the lathe, then used screw tension to pull them tightly together....maybe. A tight slip fit is much better IMO, and gives you the option to make the joint as long as you want (2" in the case of the woodies shown previously). This makes the joint lest prone to breakage under shear force, and distributes the stress of the joint over a larger area.
I am probably over "engineering" the idea, but that's kinda in my nature.
The other thought I've had with this idea in reference to carbons is to use a, for example, section of .500 spine shaft in the rear and a .400 spine shaft up front....maybe a 1/3 length rear and 2/3 length front.
I think the article on making wood takedown arrows like Rob Taylor showed was in an old issue of TBM. There are times when hunting lions that it is nice to have both hands free and everything protected in a pack so when you slide downthe mountain your arrows or bow don't get hurt.
Yeah, insert thread size is 8x32 and PDP makes an aluminum insert tapped all the way through.
Rob Taylor - The guy from Montana who made the T/D woodies also sold them commercially from his residence. I still have three I purchased directly from him years ago and may still have his name and address around if anyone is interested. At this time of year it may take me a while to dig out and find though.
Z,
Cool...I know (or am told) that he made quite a few sets of them back then. Steve (my friend) still has an unmolested dozen shafts, one of which was in my pics.
-Rob
I've been thinking about this little project for awhile and Rob's idea pushed me over the Edge.
I made a little takedown,carbon monopod for my pocket camera.It's called "the Rob Distefano Signature Series" monopod.
I did some extensive tuning and found that a Victory V Force HV3,.350 shaft was perfect.I also had one on hand that was snapped in the middle.The two pieces are 12" so it makes a 24" monopod.I cut the blades down on a MA-3 broadhead plus dulled them and the point and installed on an aluminum adapter.The other end for the camera,has a piece of 1/4"-20 stainless bolt epoxied in,with a shallow nut attached..I footed the point end and camera end.
You screw the upper end into the camera and stab the point into the ground.The small,3 blade broadhead seems to stabilize fine.Remember-pocket camera.If you don't like the angle,tilt the shaft and push it in the ground a little farther.
Weight is a hair over 1 ounce.It will replace my small tripod that weighs about 1 1/2 lbs.
May not work in swamps or sand dunes.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/jbrandenburg/DSC_0021.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/jbrandenburg/DSC_0022.jpg)
Thanks Rob.
QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
... I made a little takedown,carbon monopod for my pocket camera.It's called "the Rob Distefano Signature Series" monopod....
dang, i dunno about that name! :scared: :thumbsup:
Hey this might be away to put all my broken arrows to use . Make one good arrow out of two broken ones . That camera idea is good.
As I stated earlier, the slip fit joint is much easier to build, and gives you a truer arrow shaft than a screw together joint. The fit of the insert in each shaft, insert to insert face, and threads all conspire to make your arrow less than straight. Whereas a slip fit just requires a tight fitting piece of shaft inside and glued on one half to make your joint.
The monopod idea has been done too. 3 Rivers and Kustom King have them.
http://www.3riversarchery.com/Hunting+Outdoor+Gear+Accessories+Miscellaneous+HeroShot+Camera+Adapter_c50_s46_p73_i8006_product.html
The slip joint connection would make it easier to build a straight arrow.I think it would lend itself more to aluminums.I'm not sure I would be comfortable shooting an arrow with a carbon to carbon joint,mid-shaft.
The reason I wanted to make the monopod,besides wanting one,was to play with that joint idea.The Victory inserts I had were lighter and more precisely built than the Gold tips.When tightened down on the all thread,the joint was tight and fairly precise.
The Gold Tip inserts would have been useless in creating a good joint.I think the biggest problem isn't the insert fit in the shaft or the thread fit but the fact that the first 1/2" of each insert has a wider (.200")unthreaded section.
This means when connected with the all thread,there is a 1" section of all thread that is unsupported.This can lead to a little lateral play.It wasn't bad with the Victory inserts tightened down,but I could get them to shift slightly if I deliberatly torqued them side to side.
When I built my take down arrows a few years ago,I made aluminum connectors,starting with an aluminum broadhead adapter.This gave me that smooth,wider shank to fit into the insert better.
The problem with my setup was that I turned down the adapters in the drill press by using a file and it wasn't precise enough.I had to keep the two arrow halves straight while the epoxy cured.If I had built them on a lathe,it would have worked much better.Still,they shoot well.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/jbrandenburg/Take-DownArrows.jpg)
I believe if someone ever wanted to manufacture a TD connector,it would look like the male part protruding from the shaft above,only double sided,1" of smooth shank,.200 diameter and threaded on both ends.This would be one universal connector that would work with every size aluminum and carbon arrow insert that used standard,screw in points.It would be cheaper to make than an aluminum adapter and one size fits all.Oh,and there should be a titanium version too.
This connection system,all aluminum would weigh about 45 grs.
Back when Rambo (movie) came out with the take down arrows. One of the guys who to shoot with us bought a compound bow with the take down arrows, it was a package deal I think Hoyt( not sure).
The arrows came apart like tent poles with the elastic stretch things that kept them together. It's been a long time so I don't remember the size arrows, but they worked great.
Does anyone remember.
Takedown arrows, been done along time!
C.R. Learn, did an article, in the late '80s for Bow & Arrow Mag, about these. A Company in Arizona, made a tenon tool, to attach a sleeve of aluminum, for wood arrows!
Also was profiled a compression sleeve, to attach, 2 sections of aluminum shafts, for said purpose.
I have used, a section of Blackhawk carbons, to connect, 2117 shafts together for fine shootin, arrows! With the components available today, it's an easy do!
I also remember the shock cord, attachments used for takedowns. Like used for tent poles!
Heck, primitive man, used 2 piece arrows!
Nothing new! :readit:
Nothing new indeed, especially regarding the primitive arrow, with two sections and with exchangeable heads.
I remember reading an article on how to make one from the mid 70's, and other one on TBM from the mid 90's.
Nothing new.
nope, nothing "new" about t/d arrows. 'cept when applied to synthetic shafting, it's far more doable, practical, and tweakable. :readit:
I've made several of the TD carbon arrows using a plutruded(sp) Beman 400 hunter for the inside sleeve. I made sure to use heavy GPI shaft, like the CX Heritage 250's. My biggest worry was having the female end fracture.
I think the insert version would solve that problem.
Troy
I wanted to make some 2 piece arrows for backpacking, and this is what I came up with, after reading all your comments:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s175/mcdavid1944/arrowconnector.jpg)
I took 2 point inserts and cut off the flanges. I glued one of them halfway into one shaft. I then used the glued-in insert to poke the other insert into the other shaft, which automatically seated at the correct distance so the two inserts would butt up against each other inside the shaft when assembled. These are Gold Tip inserts, so they are already threaded 8 X 32 on one end. I cut off a section of an 8 X 32 screw, and threaded and glued half of it into the first glued-in insert.
I was worried that the glue from the second insert would be a mess inside the shaft and make it hard to screw the two arrow halves together, but that turned out not to be a problem. I just dabbed a little glue on the end of the second insert before I shoved it into the shaft, which spread along the insert as it was being installed. There was very little glue on the inside of the shaft, which I cleaned up with a Q-tip.
The insert that spans both halves internally keeps the arrow pretty straight when assembled. Not as straight as an uncut arrow, which doesn't move the gauge on my Arizona Arrow Straightener micrometer much at all, but it is straighter than my typical wood arrow after I get it as straight as I can.
I made the first one bare shaft, so I could compare it with an uncut arrow, which I haven't done yet, but I'll let you know how that turns out.
Does any company make takedown arrows and sell them commerically? With the new restrictions on mailing packages overseas, especially since a 29 in. arrow would be too long, I need to order some made. Any thoughts?
This is a great thread! it should go in the "how to"!!!
Thank you for doing all the testing and prototyping!!
It was a fun read and useful info!!
Thanks guys, enjoyed reading this!
this is a cool thread,how about a 2219 on the front an a 2016 in the rear.It would be like a footed shaft on steroids lol.I would like to see a slow motion film of one of these arrows flying.I was superised to read this really works.
TBM had an article a few years back about making take downs.
You guys are killing me here.Now I gotta get out of my chair ,go out to the shop and make a couple of these for my up coming Hawaii Pig hunt in March.
Oh Yeah,I thought this is a cool thread by the way.I will be using Robs all thread joint idea.I think it that is a great idea.Will see how they fly.
My best friend had made his own by swedging the arrow shaft. No glue in insert. Fred was a machinist and had a 34" arrow. He had made them to go on hunting trips. This shaft was a 2216. They flew like darts.
Interesting stuff!!!
Thought I would bring this back up since we are talking about take down arrows.
I'm gonna try some. If it works, I'll have some great arrows to take to Africa in August.
I'm wondering. Left wing feathers have a tendency to loosen/unscrew points. Might it do the same to threaded insert joints?