Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: slowbowjoe on October 03, 2011, 07:12:00 PM
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So, just got my first set of carbon arrows (gold tip 3555's, full length,145 up front, with a 40#@28 Toelke Whip). All excited to shoot something that wasn't bent or broke. Shot rather poorly. Consistently, they flew with a corkscrewing pattern...spiraling, but not on center.
Called the shop that set 'em up for me, and he suggested I try some various weight points ( heavier and lighter ) to see what flies best. Don't know anyone around that shoots, so I'm looking for some advice.
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It sounds like you have a couple of problems. One is your nocking point height is off. This causes up and down error in arrow flight. Second is spine issues which causes right and left flight issues. I would take the time to read thru threads on here, and check out long bow tuning on OL Adcocks website as well. He provides an excellent explination that works for all trad bows.
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I am thinking your to stiff.Doin't know how long your arrow is.I shoot 35/55 GT cut at 29 1/2" with a 50 GR insert and 175 Gr heads from bows 45# to 51# @28",My draw length is also 28".Shoot like darts for me.Add more weight up front and see what happens.Might want to play with the BH and NP also.
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Yup I'd start by adding a good 100g to the front.
Eric
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Need point or insert weight up front. Check nock and brace height too.
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All good advice....my first though was brace height
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Corkscrewing shows that both the nock height is wrong, and that the spine of the arrow is off. Adjust the nock height first, then work on the spine, by adjusting point weight. You'll probably need to add some weight up front.
Go here: http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
You need to learn to tune your arrow to your bow. It's not difficult, but it does take some effort.
FYI, unless the shop you went to specializes in traditional, they'll probably not give you the best advice. I've yet to see a compound pro put a trad guy in the correct arrow.
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can I ask why it shows both of those maladies ?
ChuckC
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Yep, it's most likely an arrow-tuning, my-broadheads-are-wind-planing issue.
Before I had any idea about how an arrow was supposed to be tuned to the bow, I had a similar experience, and missed a fine buck as a result. I went home and, not knowing the real root of the problem, started rotating my broadheads a few degrees at a time and then shooting them to see how they flew. I hit on an angle that worked, rotated all my heads exactly the same, and tried them all out. They all flew true. I will admit, that was dumb luck, but not knowing any other solution, I hunted the rest of the season with that setup. (I had found an angle where the broadhead "wings" were not catching air that my ill-tuned arrows were whipping into.)
Not the best way to solve the problem, though, and it probably won't work at all in a lot of cases.
Archie
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
can I ask why it shows both of those maladies ?
ChuckC
Well, a corkscrew is basically the arrow moving in two separate planes. A high or low nock will cause porpoising, or up and down oscillation. A stiff or a weak spine will cause side to side movement. Combine them and you get a corkscrew.
Now, it is possible that he could cause that arrow flight by torquing the string and making the arrow bounce off the shelf, but it's more likely that he just needs to make a nock adjustment and a spine adjustment.
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Thanks for all the feedback, guys, it's really appreciated. Newbie here and still learning. I was thinking more point weight might help; sounds like that's pretty unanimous.Didn't think nock height or brace height though.
I called the shop who made up the arrows after shooting 'em ( a trad shop, sponsored on this site ), and was basically told to go get some points of various weights and see what happens, can't help you much if you're not here. I guess the advice was OK, but I hoped they'd offer a little more help, rather then telling me to go find some points. Good to know there's so many other folks willing to help.
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What kind of fletching ? do yo have vanes or feathers . What the others said also.
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Again, go to this site: http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
and educate yourself. You'll learn more than any of us can explain in a few short posts.
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Just a shot in the dark but how tight are your nocks on the serving? If they are very tight it is possible they are causing the "cork screw" flight.
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Sure it could be a tuning issue BUT do not overlook your release. When I have a poor release my arrows corkscrew. Those same arrows normally fly very good.
Since you are new to shooting, keep practicing at short ranges focusing on form and release. Often a good release will make a "so-so" matched arrow fly well.
Are you shooting a tab or a glove? I do not think one is better than the other but one may be better for your style of shooting. Try them both!
Often times we are the cause of our issues, not our equipment!
Good luck
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there is no substitute for bare shafting, starting at 5 yards, making nocking point height (up down arrow flight), and point weight and/or arrow spine adjustments (left right arrow flight wiggles) as needed, and steadily move back to 15 or 20 yards, adjusting the bare shaft as need be. LOTS will hafta do with how mature and consistent is yer shooting form, too.
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That ACS sitewill be very helpful; thanks, Looper, for lots of good advice. I appreciate all the other input also. I'm going to pick up some points today and see how it goes. I had the bow tuned pretty well for my woodies, but I guess I need to retune for the carbons.
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Originally posted by slowbowjoe:
... I had the bow tuned pretty well for my woodies, but I guess I need to retune for the carbons.
the static and dynamic spine range of woods are very similar, but not at all for carbons which will have stiffer dynamic spines. the differences can be like night and day. carbons are actually easier to tune as they're quite tweakable. with woodies, it's almost mandatory to have a good spine tester! i'd have serious troubles without my ace spine-spin tester!
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I've had arrows that corked screwed a little and after opening up the nock gap so it wasn't so tight to the string the arrows flew like darts. I took a dremel tool with a small grinding wheel and made tight enough to hold the arrow to the string when bow was pointed down but loose enough the arrow game off the string when tapping on the back of the string a bit. Now I do this all the time with new nocks. Just happened again recently with new nocks again. I can get them to do it a little when my release is bad. Just my 2 cents. How did your last arrows fly coming out of the same bow?
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I also suggest getting a second opinion. I thought I had the same problem but I couldn't figure out why my arrows weren't impacting at consistently different spots at different distances. So I had somebody look over my shoulder and I saw a corkscrew and would ask "Did you see that?" And got a "Nope. I saw a side to side wiggle." (paradox) What I was seeing was an optical illusion.
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Well I can tell you even full length you are well over spined. You should try .600 spine or use at least 225 up front and most likely more. Shawn
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This happens any time you have a non-trad shop set up arrows for you. They don't know beans about spine. I guarantee you if a wheel bow shop sets up your arrows, you are going to be way overspined.
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Well, it was a trad shopthat set me up. Anyway, I ordered up a test kit of points, and will try 'em as soon as I get 'em.
Previous arrows were shooting well, but got beat up and shortened from breakage, and I see corkscrewing with some of those.
They do fly a little better out of my 5# heavier centershot recurve, so I'm thinking spine issues are the major part of the problem.
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so the arrows are bending up and down from one thing, and side to side from another thing, meanwhile they are spinning round and round cause of the feather thing, so how can you tell ?
ChuckC
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
so the arrows are bending up and down from one thing, and side to side from another thing, meanwhile they are spinning round and round cause of the feather thing, so how can you tell ?
ChuckC
What are you asking, exactly?
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He didn't fletch LW feathers with a RW jig or vice versa did he? Just a thought. It's been done before. Chad
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Cheney, I'm just making a back handed comment that there is a bunch going on and changing a bunch of stuff at the same time doesn't tell you what it was.
Heck, I had a similar appearing situation years ago and simply changing broadheads fixed it.
Who'da thunk ?
ChuckC
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That's what I figured. You're right. He needs to change one thing at a time.
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i would try a heavy weight up front, bare shaft tune and work on your release. i changed my finger position on the string a little and it made a big difference in my shooting.
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I agree with Chuck, change one thing at a time to learn from this experience. It's very rewarding when figuring out how to make things better. There are simple rules to follow for a basic setup to create a base, but enough variables to make it difficult for others to know forsure the right advise, in my opinion. More than one way to get to California.
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Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Well I can tell you even full length you are well over spined. You should try .600 spine or use at least 225 up front and most likely more. Shawn
I agree with Mr. Leonard. I have a 47 pound Whip and shoot the same arrows in it. I need 250 up front to get good flight. I would be looking for some .600 spine arrows.
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I'm just about sure there are a lot of "duct tape" cures to bad arrow flight; but if a guy wants to get to the bottom of it and not have to monkey around with weird or inconsistent success, getting those arrows to go STRAIGHT out of the bow (i.e., well-tuned) is the first and most critical step.
I learned an awful lot of arrow-flight "theory" from Ken Beck's video on arrow tuning. I would recommend watching it. I know it's on the Black Widow owner's DVD; don't know where else.
Archie
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not sure if this was mentioned because I didn't really read through everything but when I'm helping friends bareshaft tune their arrows and I see cork screwing where the bqack of the arrow is actually spinning in a circle 1st thing I look for is the follow through,,,,, could you be slightly jerkign or tourqing your bow hand upon release,,,, if you are not sure take an elastic and keep over wrapping it on the end if the arrow shaft right where the arrow draws to when you have it at full draw,, now have a friend draw that arrow back with your bow till it hits the elastic like a draw stop and carefully shoot it makign sure the bow is held verticle and still..
if that arrow still corkscrews then theres alot off with the set-up but otherwise its your form,,,,, 90% of the time it should maintain swing in some direction showing the spine vs bow until its tuned but I hardly ever see cork screwing.
its possible but just some things to try,, good luck.. T
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Shawn Leonard won't stear you wrong, he knows his arrows.
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Joe-did anyone mention Stu Miller's chart to help you get in the ballpark? Use Stu's chart and it will save you a lot of grief! Just punch in your bow/arrow data and you'll get the info you need! Google it or PM me and I'll get it to you. Good luck!
Kenny :bigsmyl:
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OK - just got a test kit of tips, set 'em up and shot a while- 200 points definitely shoot best... not quite straight (still some corkscrew), but hitting close. Ran out of daylight. Will work with nock & brace height some tomorrow. Will also shoot 'em with my 45" centershot recurve for comparison.
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Well I've had a couple of tuning sessions, observed carefully, and so far : 200 grain points shoot pretty nicely, 175 or 225's are pretty close also.
Point weight was off, as many suggested. Bow needed tuning
( brace height up alot, nocking point down just a little.
Now they're grouping pretty well, though there's still a tiny bit of wobble in flight. Brace height was found down to 1 turn up or bown, nocking height within 1/16".
Allowing room for some bad releases, I'm seeing arrow flight is nearly optimal; will continue to fine tune. I want to thank you all again for being so helpful.
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Well I've had a couple of tuning sessions, observed carefully, and so far : 200 grain points shoot pretty nicely, 175 or 225's are pretty close also.
Point weight was off, as many suggested. Bow needed tuning
( brace height up alot, nocking point down just a little.
Now they're grouping pretty well, though there's still a tiny bit of wobble in flight. Brace height was found down to 1 turn up or bown, nocking height within 1/16".
Allowing room for some bad releases, I'm seeing arrow flight is nearly optimal; will continue to fine tune. I want to thank you all again for being so helpful.
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What is the tiller on your bow? from string to fade out, top and bottom limb.
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For what it's worth, I'll bet your arrows are straight fletch. Straight fletch is great for target practice and for tuning. They will show you are out of tune quicker than a helical. But, make sure you have helicals for hunting.
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3 fletch,5" left wing helical, shield cut. I'll check the tiller tomorrow. Hadn't thought of that at all.
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Best I can tell, both upper and lower limbs ate tillered pretty equally @ 19 & 1/2". Silencers are set where they were when I got the bow; wondering if they may be affecting performance also. Shot one of my best groups ever this morning, which was nice - still wanting to see the arrows fly straight, and the bow smooth out a little.