Trad Gang

Hi all,

Was reading the thread on how far most shoot when hunting and almost everyone weighs in under 20 yards.  I also shoot best at the 15-17 yard mark.  I guessI am writing this is to see if others think it is a mental thing rather than a form or equipment thing?  

I mean consider this.  If you are to the right 1 inch at 10 yards that is pretty good, the way I understand things if you shot the same shot at 20 you would only be right of the target 2 inches.  But for me that isnt what really happens.  It seems like anything over 20 yards and my groups fall apart and there isnt any consistency.  Which makes me think more and more that it is a concentration problem, not an accuracy problem???

Does anybody have any thoughts or experience with this topic.  I guess it seems to me that archers might need to practice their concentration as much or more than their shooting?????


C

I agrre with you, my shooting goes to pot at 20 yards and beyond, idk why but at 15 and under i kill them 95% of the time.

If you are confident of your shot and have practiced it take it. If you can shoot a deer at 60 yds and it feels right do it. If a deer is at 10 and doesn't feel right, pass.
And yes, at longer ranges concentration plays a major part also, your arrow starts to drop off dramatically.

To me 15-20 yards is ideal as I hunt from elevated stand positions and that is an ideal distance for a better shot trajectory on both my targets lungs and not too far for my accuracy to suffer.

I live in az where 20 yards is a good but it more like 30 is the shot you get . So I shoot at 40 & 50 alot  so that 30 my groups are 6 in .

The chance of wounding a deer, instead of killing it, is greater at longer yardages.

My practice sessions include shooting out to 40 yds. I concentrate harder when shooting longer distances and I'm confident with my gear and ability out to 40.

I agree most of our bow shots are under 20 yds but it's a good feeling to know you have the ability to accurately place your arrow into the vitals beyond the 20 yd mark. Bottom line, you have to take your shots within your comfort zone or effective shooting distance.

If that distance is 20 yds and less, no problem but it wouldn't hurt during each session to try and increase that distance. The more you practice and concentrate your accuracy will improve at the longer distances.

I think, personally, the the demise of NFAA field archery was the demise of a lot of accurate shooting. We shot 4 arrows at ranges from 10 feet to 80 yards for 18 targets for the morning and the same for the afternoon. Think about how many arrows that is and how important shooting a good group is to be able to be competitive...and how  you learned to shoot and judge distances. Now you go to a 3D shoot and get one shot per target, and shoot, in a day, about 1/4 of the arrows we used to shoot. No groups, no yardage, no chance to understand the mistake you made if you miss and worse, no chance to repeat a good shot. Back then 40 yards was, for most of us, an acceptable hunting shot and many of us could do it. I can't do it as well any longer but I can remember being able to kill woodchucks out to 50 yards  on a regular basis.

If someone can stack arrows at 15 yards and their tight groups turn into patterns at 25 it is probably somewhat of a mental block.  The same good form at 15 yards should yield good results at 25.

I think for a lot of people, it gets exponentially harder becuase adjustments have to be made.  If you are an instinctive shooter, your sight picture from 10-17 yards probably looks the same so no real adjustments have to made.  Learn that one shot very well and most hunting situations will provide an animal in that window.  Out beyond that the mind works harder for the less familiar sight picture.

I have seen too many trad archers that seem to use lack of sights and wheels as an excuse for poor shooting.  With in reason we should be able to hold our own with compounders out to 25-30 yards.

It mostly has to do with how people practice.

Out to 20 yards with most trad bows, trajectory is not a huge issue. At longer distances it becomes a much bigger issue.

Out to 20 yards, you can have acceptable form and still be accurate. At longer distances, you must have great form to be consistent.

I practice out to 40 regularly and next summer I plan to set up my range so I can shoot out to 50 at least.

You just have to shoot a lot of arrows at longer ranges, the same way you did to become accurate out to 20 yards. You may find you need to change some things to hit at 40.

Bill I still shoot field archery, although the NFAA has dropped the max yardage to 50 for trad... It's 28 targets.. 4 arrows each a total of 112 shots not counting an animal round.. We normally shoot either 14 field and 14 hunter or a full course of 28 targets field and 28 targets hunter.. Field is the white target with black rings and hunter is the the black target with white rings.. Animal round is the old paper animal targets..

I still shoot the full range (80 yards) in practice..

I'd have to say that 20 yds is a distance I am most comfortable with as it is where I practice most. I'd only take a long shot if it didn't feel long. If it feels long, it feels wrong, because I'm now debating the range internally instead of concentrating of my spot. The ten yard shots and the 30 yard shots are something that I concentrate more on. The reason being is that 10 yds is an uncommon range for me to shoot in practice generally as it is tedious. When I shoot at ten yards I accept nothing but the x ring and consider all else to be a miss. I am comfortable at 20 because it is the right mix of distance and walk for a good practice session with few arrows. When I have more arrows I like to shoot longer distances because I am able to sustain the desired workout tempo mentally and physically. I enjoy shooting for the same time amount it takes me to get to and from the target. I like about three at ten, 6 at twenty, twelve at thirty, and 24 at fifty. I find that at the longer ranges the trajectory is better ingrained with the higher shooting volume. Bottom line is deer aren't targets.  You have to figure out where you are most effective as a shooter and know your setup's effective range, the shorter one is your max hunting distance.

another point, I'd think, is that it's much harder to pick a SMALL spot the farther you get esp. if you'r hunting in the shadows, low light etc...I know for me, alot of times as light gets dimmer, it's really hard to pick out a small point and all I really am looking at is a solid slab of color when I look ata deer----I often pass on shots during the first/last 15-20 min. of light because of it  :rolleyes:  

but, the coyote I shot a couple yrs ago was 33 paces from my stand---never even thought about it---just pulled and let it go>>>-------> and just as dead as it would have been at 10 yds......so, some mental blocking as well, I'm sure, and not as much practice at further distances makes us NOT trust our instinct that far out cause it really hasn't been developed??  :knothead:

Shooting for groups is good, but I like to think that shooting to keep an arrow in the kill zone is  better all around. Shoot at a ball or something similar....like the size of a soccer ball. Kick it around shoot at it from many yardages. Use a blunt so you don't ruin it. A friend told me about this and I think it works. Don't think about how far it is....think on making the shot. Stump'n is also good to keep your hunting shots in tune. Hey, take the ball out stumping.....try it you'll like it. I also like 15-18 yards....lol!

First, I think it's a focus thing.  That's why most people start having trouble after a given yardage.

Second, it's a TIME issue. The longer the shot, the longer the arrow hangs in the air.  More time for your target to do something you didn't expect.

Good points! Yardages are most meaningful to those who practice at known yardages. IMO, this is where the train jumps track in hunting situations. Not to say you can't kill deer at "x" known distance; however, those distances are limiting in & of themselves. The comfort zone may be expanded from the confidence of NOT knowing the distance. That is, practice away from known distances to hone instinctive ability. BTW, Not a license to sling haymakers to excessive yardages. (I last measured my kill distance at 24 steps afterwards. Normally I don't even care to measure.) Just an alternative shot sequence to thinking distance.

Also, not meant to discredit anyone shooting any way they prefer. If it ethically works for you make it work.

I think repeatedly pounding the same target at the same distance for long periods with the goal of shooting tighter groups can eventually become a limiting pattern. When doing this, I find myself feeling that 24 yards is way out there. Yet when I go out with a quiver full of blunts and target squirrels, cone flowers heads and milkweed seed pods that after a while 30 yards is spitting distance, and after a week of it I can shoot pretty good out to over 40 yards. It seems my wife tends to pick targets at a consistent 43 yards when stump shooting after two weeks of stump shooting part of the way out to where we have been hunting these past years, a two mile hike.  Before arrows got so expensive, we used to go out and see what we could hit. Ground squirrels at long ranges, pigeons, passing bumble bees, clay pigeons, the more challenging the more fun. I think part of Howard Hill's success was just that, not always seeing how tight of a group he could shoot, but testing himself to see what he could pull off.  It is the difference between a target shooter and a multi-species hunter.

Originally field archery split from target archery in 1939 because the participants wanted to practice in hunting situations at unknown distances and field archery was born with shots at ranges of 20 feet to 100 yards all unknown.. Later with the advent of sights the yardage was changed to known and the distance shortened to 80 yards as a maximum.. A field course is great practice even for the instinctive shooter like me, knowing the yardage isn't an issue but hitting the target is.. Also for those who may not know this each 14 target set has 10 targets that you will shoot all 4 arrows from the same position. There will be 3 more targets that are called walk-ups and you get to move closer to the target after each shot. That leaves 1 target where you will shoot all your arrows from one distance but will move laterally between each shot. This target is called the 35 yard fan. The 3 walk-ups are 80-70-60-50 yards, 45-40-35-30 yards and 35-30-25-20 feet. That last one is called the Bunny target. The other two are known as the 80 yard walk-up and the 45 yard walk-up. The targets where you shoot all 4 arrows from the same position are at the distances 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 and 65 yards. So the farthest distance, from which you will shoot all 4 arrows, is 65 yards. Most ranges are not on flat ground and often there are shots both up and down hill and plenty of side hill shots as well. Then there is the Hunter course with similar ranges except at odd distances

I often take my more advanced students to the range here in Waco and we walk the course shooting from both known and unknown distances..

Javi - I guess the surgery was a success if you're already posting up all this great info.  I'd like to shoot that course with you sometime.  Hope you're feeling pretty good.

For my self I feel that the possibility for errors is proposal to the distance.
To much can happen from release to impact @ longer distances.

My killzone is in my mind ca 25 yards! Why?
Because if I make tast rule I'm not going to shoot at 35 yards in the heat of the moment.

Still I'm confident out to ca 45-50 yards, and practice at those distances reguraly for being able to deliver good shots also for recovery if thats needed:)

QuoteOriginally posted by Green:
Javi - I guess the surgery was a success if you're already posting up all this great info.  I'd like to shoot that course with you sometime.  Hope you're feeling pretty good.

Yep surgery went well, no problems and now all I got to do is sit on my butt all weekend... Hope all my friends hitting the woods this weekend get a good one..

Rob, we'll hit the field course soon my friend..

I think your right on the money... Recently at a shoot we had a night shoot where only glow sticks were visible hung on to "Kill Zones" of various 3d targets at unknown ranges [ I confirmed about 12-25 yards the next morning ]... It was totally dark.. You could not even see your bow in front of you. I shot a 50 out of possible 60 ... 5 points for a kill zone and 3 for a bodyshot [ head and legs did not count]. I missed 1 of 12 animals completely.

Definately it's a concentration thing, at least for me, as the following morning I shot the same set of targets and by "Overthinking too much" was able to only score a 30.... Reverts back to the old "pick a spot and conentrate" in my case.. Try this type of shooting sometime... It was my "First" time and really opened my eyes.  :eek:  
Gene

To keep your hunting distances in focus....next time you do a 3-D do what we call hunters scoring. Inside the 8 ring is a 1 or kill. Outside the 8 ring[body] is a -1 [wound]. A miss is a miss = 0. The scores at the end of the shoot will open some eyes!

20 for me can be harder than 25 and 30.  I think it is about my max gap and or the point trajectory kicks in more, and my brain doen't line up the shot so well at that range.

I think the biggest reason we pratice and shoot at shorter ranges today is that arrows now cost $80 -over$100 a dozen,,,lol.

QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
Bill I still shoot field archery, although the NFAA has dropped the max yardage to 50 for trad...

They dropped it to fifty? Really? Good grief. That round was standardized in 1942 when folks shot simple backed bows and wood arrows. But I guess it's too hard for today's archers using fiberglass limbs and carbon arrows.
 

I determine my max yardage by whether or not I can focus on a golf tee at the distance I am shooting (20 yards for me). My eyes are getting old.

i know as most of us do that we can shoot further, the saints of bowhunting did.  where it is thick so this is what dictates, if i had a place to practiced at 60 yrds would shoot a deer there

i agree with not being able to pick out a spot within the spot at long distances.  i practice at 40+ yards a lot even though i never "plan" to shoot that far. i figured it would make my 20 yard shots feel closer.... with that being said i had a deer last year that i was going to shoot but she didn't take the next step like i wanted her to.  after the hunt was over i steped it off to 37 steps. it was a bright sunny day and i could see her very well.  i figured that was why i felt so confident that i could have made the shot....

For me, shooting longer distances becomes tougher as with the heavy arrows I shoot, beyond about 20 yds or so, the arrow drop is a big factor. It takes a lot more time shooting those longer shots to dial in.

Shooting at the hay bale, I have fits with it. But like was mentioned before, start shooting judos or blunts while stump shooting, and I shoot much better.

But in the end, when shooting at game instead of pinecones, its boils down to at what distance can I be perfectly confident my arrow will make a killing shot. It varies a little from year to year, depending on how much shooting Ive done. But typically for me,about  20 is my max.

Let's face it, even with unmarked ranges in 1942, it wouldn't take those gap shooters more than a couple of rounds to get the distances memorized.  I wasn't around in the 40's, but I can tell you neither the shooting stakes or the targets moved on field rounds in the 50's and 60's; and I don't remember competing against anyone who didn't use a sight, gap or string walk system.  I'd argue todays traditional bowhunters are better shots and restrict themselves to shorter ranges because they believe it's more ethical to do.  Most of you know the stories of many bowhunting greats in the past taking shots we'd consider unethical today.

Well, shots at whitetail deer are save up to about 20 yards and then after about 32 yards.
In between the reaction of the deer to the sound of the string will make for high shots or even spine shots or misses, because the deer's body is no longer there where the arrow was intended to be. I shot once a deer at about 38 yards, and it never new what hit it. This deer was feeding and was holding very still. So I took the shot and took out its heart. In the low light, I thought I missed, because the arrow passed fully through and looked like I shot over its back.
I once shot at a deer at 27 yards, and it duck my arrow and I shot over. I try to avoid the shots over 20 yards. Only in special circumstances I take a long shot beyond the 32 yard line.

Certainly, I used to hunt where there was a large oats bail. Every day I would round the corner and put my broadhead on that bail with my 90 pound longbow, point on. It was nearly 80 yards out, I have long point on for some reason. one day there was a fat doe feeding on that bail, I put the point on her and released, it looked like a perfect shot, then the doe took a couple of calm steps forward and the broadhead stuck in bail right where she was standing. I learned a good lesson that day. Keep it shorter and even then I wait until the deer is not likely to move unexpectedly.  I do shoot at them when they are walking and in close, I find that to be a predictable shot, since the deer's own motion helps to conceal my motion.

I switched to shooting the compound stakes at 3d shoots this year. Payed no attention to the yardages. Was only 20 points from my average the first time out. Now 30 feels like 20. Once your brain gets a chance to soak in some of the mental pictures it can figure everything else out pretty quickly.

I think standing at a known yardage and flinging arrows at a circle does nothing for our shooting after we have good form.


Rob

Targets are for fun, hunting is for real.  When targets suffer and die slowly and painfully from poor shot placement then maybe shooters might take the ethics issue more seriously.  Target practice, and attempting to kill real animals, are two entirely different exercises that should be treated accordingly.

I wonder how many that swear by the right to go long on critters (just because they can do it in practice) would do so if, say, they forfeited something valuable to them for every bad shot on animals that they made (their bow, car, pet, paycheck, a piece of their anatomy equitable to the unfortunate animals loss, etc.).  How would it feel to know that, before you shoot, the arrow you are about to release will have REAL consequences...to YOU?  Still think those long lobs are as attractive in that situation?

There are no hard lines when it comes to hunter ethics.  The shooter is free to make their own choices and just walk away from the outcome, regardless of what it is.  As an ethical archer all one can do is hope that, for the bad actors or those that just don't know any better, there's a lesson learned somewhere along the line.

Clint Eastwood "Men must know their limitations"

It is about practice, the farther away that I shoot, the better I become at shorter distances.

When I was younger and shot more often.............I was a much better shot.....but, I am getting better........My goal is 4-5" groups at 35 yds.

Great shot execution may be acquired in short order or not in a lifetime. Beyond that it is 90% mental and 10% mental. The mental focus challenge is part of every shot.

For some, longer shots, such as extending the range from 10 to 20 yards, may yield much greater than calculated accuracy degradation. Loss of focus, modified shot execution and loss of confidence at the longer distance are a primary contributors.

Successful hunters who consistently score, know their effective hunting ranges. They accept and live by them for a given time and also as the situation dictates.

I also think it is largely a focus issue. I seldom practice at long range as it is extremely hard to pick and hold a precise spot. Rather, I tend to shoot the target as a whole without concentrating on a single point - thus groups get very wide. (I do know a lot of guys that do practice at greater range and perform quite well, but I am not one of them.) When I move back cloer to my comfortable distances, I find that I once again begin to focus on an exact impact point , and the groups get better.

I dont worry as much about yardage, as my comfort zone. That said, every practice session I shoot to 45yds, at least a few times. I have taken deer, with my recurve, at 35yds, last buck was 27yds. If you practice the long yardage shots, even if you dont plan to take them, you will see your 25 and under groups shrink tremendously. It is like adding softwar to your computer hardrive, you will pick it up. I dont have to change anchor or facewalk, just shoot instinctive, and follow thru, good form, really shows up at longer yardage, so does bad form.!

Just so people understand I am not saying you should shoot long distances in hunting situations. Every situation is different and sometimes a longer shot is a safer bet than a close one. I read this thread as having to do with accurate shooting. I simply believe that being able to shoot well at short and long distances is desireable. I do take issue with this statement by Swamp Yankee..."I'd argue todays traditional bowhunters are better shots and restrict themselves to shorter ranges because they believe it's more ethical to do". We must be going to different shoots because the level of accuracy I see, even in the 15 to 20 yard range is definitely not up to par with what I was seeing in the 50's, 60's and even 70's. In fact, a lot of the shooting I see is extremely bad.  And today's equipment, for most of us, is much better and higher quality. As for ethical...for each of us it's different because  our skills sets are different and the conditions we find ourselves in can vary. Shooting distance is only one of them. It's raining here today...is it wise or ethical for me to be hunting? I've lost deer on days like this just because blood trails vanish quickly...so distance to the deer is not the issue. Recovery of the game is. So, if the rain lets up a bit, and I decide to hunt, I will most likely not hunt on the swampiest part of my property where trailing is tough on a clear day.
Having said all that I do believe that we should all know and live within our known effective accuracy range when it comes to hunting. I also believe that most of us are not as accurate as we could be at many ranges....even the close ones.

Again, hunting shot distance has nothing to do with accuracy for me. All about my personal ethic shot zone. As said in other thread, just because I can hit a bullseye at 50 yards doesn't mean I should send an arrow at a moving game animal at that distance. Everybody has seen what game reaction can do at 20 yards, at 50 a perfect shot can go from heart to back leg in a split second of air travel time. I personally choose to not take that chance.
Wounding game is not high on my list of accomplishments.
I like Bill's response above. Very personal choices, go with what feels right for you.

the further the shooter is from the mark, the greater the angle of failure to hit the mark.  this is true of any aiming sport, particularly free form aiming sports such as archery, darts, bowling, baseball, basketball, etc.  

stay within your consistent accuracy range.  

wanna shoot more consistently at 30 yards instead of 20?  that's a matter of consistency of mind and tackle.  lotta folks are capable of achieving such a goal, but don't have the time for either.

It isn't about the distance to the game for me; it is about the state of the game and the conditions. Many times I've not taken a shot at 10 yards simply because the game was on alert and the shot just wasn't right but I've also taken game at much longer distances because the conditions were perfect for that shot.  Many of you talk about accuracy as if it is a bad thing but to me being accurate is what it is all about, once I have drawn the bow it is about shooting a target, the hunting is done...  
Know your limitations and shoot within them, practice to be better and learn to read the animal... sometimes that 10 yard shot is not the best choice...
I've been shooting targets and hunting for 50 years and I can assure you that today's traditional shooters are NOT better than those of yesterday and the average traditional hunter of today is nowhere near as good as those of 50 years ago.. That isn't necessarily the fault of the archer, but more a product of today's environment. Fifty years ago if you were into archery it was a lifestyle for most, not just one of their hobbies. And before you get all upset, I know that for some it is still a lifestyle and outside of work it is their life, but the average young folks of today have too many outside activities to compete with archery. Just look at the club I shoot at, fifty years ago you could find the same 20 or so people there nearly any summer evening shooting and walking the trails. Sunday afternoon there would be families picnicking and shooting together, now you may see one or two people on a Sunday and they are in a hurry because the football game is starting.. Folks just don't have time anymore.

In the old days I shot a wheel bow and could hold a 6" group at 100 yards. Back then I killed all my game at 15 yards and under. In 1976 I went back to the long bow and still kill all my game at 15 yards and under. Why would someone shoot beyond 20 yards. It seems to me that some are bringing their wheel bow mentally with them into TRAD Archery. Getting close to the pray is the best part of the game.

K-Mag has it for me, it is all about how I feel about the shot! Sometimes the greenlight comes on at 40-50 yards and sometimes it does not at 10 yards. I never think distance but go with my gut feeling. Killed deer at 3ft. and also at 47-48 yards with my recurves. I always love what Javi(Mike) hasto say, sometimes I do not agree but always respect his opinions very highly, he is dead on about this one, I have watched hundreds of guys and gals shoot the last 10 years and talk about hunting, too be honest 70% of them should not be allowed in the woods with a LB or recurve. Sorry but it ain't they are terrible shots but out of those 70% half of them have arrows that are so badly matched to their bows I worry about penetration and sharp broadheads!! I do agree it is about getting close and I shoot most of my deer 10-12 yards, but if it feels right 45-50 is not out of the question. Shawn

the problem with that reasoning if your off an inch at 10 yards so you would be off 2 inches at 20 yards is that a tradbow isnt gonna be like a rifle  ,your gonna start to have a lot faster drop off, and you would have to compensate for that but def. a mental thing that could be overcome with practice.

QuoteOriginally posted by TSP:
Targets are for fun, hunting is for real.  When targets suffer and die slowly and painfully from poor shot placement then maybe shooters might take the ethics issue more seriously.  Target practice, and attempting to kill real animals, are two entirely different exercises that should be treated accordingly.

I wonder how many that swear by the right to go long on critters (just because they can do it in practice) would do so if, say, they forfeited something valuable to them for every bad shot on animals that they made (their bow, car, pet, paycheck, a piece of their anatomy equitable to the unfortunate animals loss, etc.).  How would it feel to know that, before you shoot, the arrow you are about to release will have REAL consequences...to YOU?  Still think those long lobs are as attractive in that situation?

There are no hard lines when it comes to hunter ethics.  The shooter is free to make their own choices and just walk away from the outcome, regardless of what it is.  As an ethical archer all one can do is hope that, for the bad actors or those that just don't know any better, there's a lesson learned somewhere along the line.

Jees, did you hit my thoughts right!  Too many people often walk away never to look back at a poor shot. Who cares if the animal crawls away to suffer and die slow....just go and take another shot tomorrow.   I CARE. And I'm glad I do.

YORNOC, I would rather shoot at a calm deer at 40, than a deer that tense and at 20. The sound of a trad bow at 35-40 seldoms spooks a deer real bad if not on alert, at 20 the closeness of the sound can having them reacating quite differently. Again, not condoning long shots, but again if it feels right I shoot. I agree wholeheartedly with Bill, todays trad shooters are no where near as good as ones of the 50's,60's and into the 70's.  Bill and I have attended the same shoot for years and Bill can shoot and I would think he would say the same of me, but we see acouple hundred people at this shoot and as I said 70% of them should not be allowed to hunt live game! Shawn

I responded earlier...you became proficient at 20 yds and under through practice...alot of practice, dedication and concentration.

Put that same dedication and concentration to work on shots 25-30 yds and you'll be amazed at what your bow/arrow will do. Get rid of that mental block. Spend a day stumpshooting at longer distances and find out what your setup will do at those distances.

I found out in Wyoming years ago, a 40 yd shot at mule deer in the Prairie is a "gimme". There is nothing between you and the animal but clean air. If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

I had a customer who claimed never to shoot past 20 yds, in fact, 15 yds and under were his norm. I cringed when he told me he had a high rack 8pt 25 yds away, totally relaxed, broadside, looking the other way and he passed. If had listened to me and incorporated long distance shooting in his sessions, he might have been dragging that deer out.

We stump shoot together a few times a year and he now has no problem hitting at 30 yds....dedication and concentration. The last 2 bucks I killed were roughly 35 and 38 yds, from the ground. Never knew what hit them.....I can hear the ground shaking now above Fred, Howard, 'Ol Ben and Jack Howard.

QuoteOriginally posted by joe skipp:
I responded earlier...you became proficient at 20 yds and under through practice...alot of practice, dedication and concentration.

Put that same dedication and concentration to work on shots 25-30 yds and you'll be amazed at what your bow/arrow will do. Get rid of that mental block. Spend a day stumpshooting at longer distances and find out what your setup will do at those distances.

I found out in Wyoming years ago, a 40 yd shot at mule deer in the Prairie is a "gimme". There is nothing between you and the animal but clean air. If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

I had a customer who claimed never to shoot past 20 yds, in fact, 15 yds and under were his norm. I cringed when he told me he had a high rack 8pt 25 yds away, totally relaxed, broadside, looking the other way and he passed. If had listened to me and incorporated long distance shooting in his sessions, he might have been dragging that deer out.

We stump shoot together a few times a year and he now has no problem hitting at 30 yds....dedication and concentration. The last 2 bucks I killed were roughly 35 and 38 yds, from the ground. Never knew what hit them.....I can hear the ground shaking now above Fred, Howard, 'Ol Ben and Jack Howard.

Right on... Them old boys ain't doing nothing but clapping for your post.. that's what's shakin the ground...  :D

The greater the distance to the target the more room there is for the mind to wander .... with your arrow in tow.

Form, concentration, tuning, or aiming errors at a short distance will be magnified geometrically at greater distances. Imagine a cone from your nock beyond the target. If you're off an inch at 10 you'll be off more than double (if everything is the same) at 20. This is one reason shooting at longer distances is a good way to discover areas the archer can improve -- your areas needing improvement are more evident.

I remember the late 60's and early 70's and the recurve shooters. On average I think they were much better than the average recurve shooters today.  While there are great shooters today I also believe many compound fellows develop shooting issues and go 'traditional' to have an excuse for missing. I'm sure I know far more about how one is supposed to shoot than I did in those days, but I was a much better shot at age 16-20 than I am today (dad burn it!).

Where I hunt a clear shot greater than 20 yards is uncommon. In the woods a 20 yard shot can seem much further. I'm extremely reluctant (read no way) to shoot more than a yard or two past 20 on white-tails. I'll admit, I'm not a good enough shot with my recurves to be shooting 25+ yards. However, that's not the whole story. When I hunted with compounds I was very confident of 50 yard, even 80 yard target shots (known yardage). But, in 34 years hunting with them I only took 2 shots longer than 30 yards -- killed em both.

As others have said, an unalarmed deer can randomly move and turn otherwise great shot execution into a miss or worse. My self-imposed limit is 20 + or - 1-3 yards. I prefer 15 yards over 10 (I don't like deer hearing the bowstring rustle my nose hairs).

I need to do what I did for years with the compound (again as others have stated above).  Next practice season (I ain't changing anything mid-season) I need to shoot a lot more at 40-50 yards with the recurve to make the 20 and 25 feel like gimme shots.  

I think it is very important for an archer to wire his thinking to expect to hit rather than miss.  I believe "aim small, hit small" (keep it positive),

Currently I try to end most practice sessions with 30 yards shots.  I think next year I'll start at 40 and end with 40.

Shawn, I definitely agree. I prefer close shots...but of course individual circumstances determine what happens. Each situation is different.
I'm not so worried about my bow noise as I am just normal game movement. I had a caribou bite at his butt at 30 yards and I wounded it because of this. My only wounded animal in 28 years. I still lose sleep over it to this day. I spent three days searching for it passing on many other shot opportunities along the way. It was my fault, and the animal suffered badly because of my poor judgement. I knew I should have waited till closer but I took the long shot. In the seconds of arrow flight, he spun and bit at his butt.
Never again. I'll wait till I'm close.
Everybody else can shoot at 100 yards if they want, but not me. I wont.

QuoteOriginally posted by joe skipp:
I responded earlier...you became proficient at 20 yds and under through practice...alot of practice, dedication and concentration.

Put that same dedication and concentration to work on shots 25-30 yds and you'll be amazed at what your bow/arrow will do. Get rid of that mental block. Spend a day stumpshooting at longer distances and find out what your setup will do at those distances.

I found out in Wyoming years ago, a 40 yd shot at mule deer in the Prairie is a "gimme". There is nothing between you and the animal but clean air. If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

I had a customer who claimed never to shoot past 20 yds, in fact, 15 yds and under were his norm. I cringed when he told me he had a high rack 8pt 25 yds away, totally relaxed, broadside, looking the other way and he passed. If had listened to me and incorporated long distance shooting in his sessions, he might have been dragging that deer out.

We stump shoot together a few times a year and he now has no problem hitting at 30 yds....dedication and concentration. The last 2 bucks I killed were roughly 35 and 38 yds, from the ground. Never knew what hit them.....I can hear the ground shaking now above Fred, Howard, 'Ol Ben and Jack Howard.

Joe, I totally get what you are saying and have experienced such out west. But just because I choose not to take that long shot... means that buck is there for you to shoot bro! He's all yours! I am lucky enough to hunt where my encounters are closer.

This may REALLY burn some bridges....but just because Fred, Howard, Ben and Jack shot bombs doesn't mean its okay for the world to do so. A big name doesn't mean they are flawless and all knowing.
But ALL DUE RESPECT TO EVERYBODY.....You know what you can do and what feels right, be it 100 or 10. Shoot straight and go with what feels right. Lets drop some game this year!

QuoteOriginally posted by joe skipp:
If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

Why?  What's wrong with coming home empty?

You know over the years anchor points have moved higher and higher, this is especially true of those shooting 3 under, a high anchor point limits the effective range and shortens the point on distance. I expect this is a contributing factor along with eastern hunting mentality to the 20 yard maximum range some would like to see as a limit along with the advent of 3-D as a practice venue instead of field archery.  If you look back at those who we consider the pioneers of modern archery they were shooting much greater distances and were anchoring on their chins or with the index finger in the corner of their mouths which greatly increased their point on aim and their effective distance.

I think trad archers as a group have evolved a close in hunting ethic that works for a lot of situations and hunters.  If you hunt Mulies in high open country, Sheep or goats in the mountains, etc...  you would most likely focus on shots out to 40 yards and become proficient at them.  If your life depended on the meat you brought home, I also believe you would develop longer range shooting skills and would use them.

Ethics are deeply personal.  The law determines what is legal and illegal, most often based on a societal ethic.  Beyond the law it is up to each person which personal version of ethics they practice.

Heh, if my life depended on it, I'd be setting snares, not shooting a bow! But yeah, very personal thing for sure.

I had a friend that insisted that no deer could be shot past 18 yards.  From his perspective he was right. He was shooting a bow that was marked 50 pounds and he had a two inch shorter release than he was willing to admit. He was shooting carbons that were excessively front loaded and way too heavy for is rig. With that slow of an arrow, I would not shoot more than 18 yards either.  Since then, he has gone back to cedars with a heavier faster bow and likes his actual shorter and more accurate shooting style. He now says no deer should ever be shot over 27 yards away.  I have years when I know I am good out past forty and will shoot a deer that is calm and in good setup out to 30 or more, then there are times when I know that I will keep it under 25 yards and still only when the situation is right.  I will not ever try to tell anyone what is right for them. On any given day or situation it may be right or wrong. Same goes for draw weights and arrow weights for deer. A perfect flying lighter weight arrow out of lighter weight bow shot from a very accurate shooter can be deadlier farther out than someone who gets sloppy arrow flight from a too stiff and heavy of an arrow and a too heavy of a draw weight. I have seen lots of shooters have a shorter draw when they shoot at game than when they shoot at targets or are testing their arrows. The result is an arrow that is way over spined when shooting at a deer, which results in a reduced  accuracy range and reduced efficiency in the killing ability of the broadhead.  Everyone needs to be honest with themselves and know what they can and cannot do with their setup on any given day and situation.  It just takes experience, shooting live targets is a different test than 3d targets and small game opportunities is the time to take those experimental shots which tests ones abilities, not deer or elk.

As a note: the mass weight and FOC has very little to do with the distance one shoots if they are truly shooting instinctively.. only those who gap, string walk or face walk have to worry about such things...  :D

I never measure yardage until maybe after a shot. I put up my bow pick a spot a take the shot. If I don't think I can make the shot, I won't try, or I'll try and miss. If I say 'I can make that." I shoot, I hit it. Yeah some times I miss too. I guess I'm saying it is mental. Yesterday I took a doe at 33 yards. I never thought it was that far. I put up my bow, drew, picked a spot and watched my arrow sail way out to a kill shot. I practice at all kinds of distance, but I never measure, just point and shoot. Keep your bow arm up and focus on the spot until you hit it.

How dare you shoot at a deer 33 yards away. Just kidding.
I could have shot a 19" wide 8 pointer yesterday, if it was not so hot and I did not have an HTM tipped arrow on the bow at the time, squirrel fever. I could have swapped arrows quick enough, but that may have broken the vibe. The squirrel would have appreciated it, but then he was only 25 yards out, he was easier to field dress and easier to pack out.

I find it highly interesting that most of us will take a 20 yards shot at a squirrel and call it ethical.  Yet shooting at a comparitively huge target like a deer or elk is unethical at 25 yards for many of the same folks.  For me it is based on my being comfortable with the shot.  I would happily take a shot at a standing elk that was not aware of my presence at 40 yards on a good day.  Other days I wouldn't shoot 20.

ill stack them at 15 yds but 20yds idk. some days im like ya baby im a god and stack them at 20. then other days its just depressing.  im going to just start firing away at 30-35 yds alot to make 20 look easy.  for compounds i will hunt out to 40 yds but i practice to 60 yds