Trad Gang

Just want to know if anyone else gets the results that I do.

I am bare shaft tuning and I can only get shafts that "should" according to all I have read, be WAY overspined to fly well.

I read tons on people posting how much lighter in spine most people could go but I try it and no way.

Are there others on here with the same results?

For example I am shooting a 55@27 blacktail recurve.
I draw 29.5 so am figuring 62lbs.

A 30.5 inch arrow with .319 spine
50 grain brass insert
With 200 grn point bareshaft hitting far right
175 right
125 almost together
I tried 300 grn fp just to make sure I wasn't getting a false weak reading, same thing...way right of fletched.

Problem is, besides myself telling me that this shouldn't be happening, is the shafts are only 8.9grns per inch so overall weight is only 446 plus nock and feathers. That is only 7 grns per pound.

This really is weighing on my mind and giving me a ton of trouble finding the correct arrows.

Thanks for your time.

Your not going to get that shaft heavy enough, say 9 gpi. The longer your shaft is, over the 28 inch or 26 inch, your shafts are spined at. The weaker they will act. I think that's why your spine is confusing you. Pick a stiffer spine, then add your weight up front to get where you need/want to be.

Sounds like it's telling you to get a stiffer arrow. My personal favorite for heaview wt. bows is the Beeman MFX Classic, it's 11.2 gr. per inch, get it in the 340 series (300 spine) put a bunch of weight up front ( I shoot 300 gr., 250 gr. head and 50 gr. brass insert) and start full length.  Cut about 1/4" at a time till it gets right. I would bet you can shoot this arrow, should be aroung 680 gr. and about 24 FOC. I have a 29.5" draw and shoot this exact arrow, had to trim mine to 30.75"  to tune.  Good luck  RW.

You have a longer draw than most folks and if you read the advice of people with 27-28" draw lengths you will not get close.  If you are shooting 30-31" arrows there is a huge difference between your arrows and someone who shoots 28-29" arrows.  

If you tune arrows by cutting shaft you will find 1/4" can make a big difference with carbons.

I shoot 31" arrows and have recently been using the Arrow Dynamics Hammer Head Lites for my bows in the 50-58# range.  These are forward weighted tapered shafts and with 125grain broadheads and a standard 31 grain insert I found you really do not need to add weight to the shafts to get the weight forward you want or to get enough weight/pound of draw.  

I also found the Tapered Shafts are VERY forgiving compared to straight carbons and tune in a much broader range of draw weights.  I use the Hammer Head Lights for four different bows and they bareshaft close to bullet points in all four.

I use the Hammer Head standard shafts for my bows in the mid 60# to 70# range with nothing more than 125 grain broadheads and standard glue in aluminum adaptors...

Again, because of the design/construction of the shaft they are very easy to tune.  The thin rear section of the shaft clears the riser and virtually eliminates the problems of archer's paradox (left to right contact with the riser),  The heavy front end adds weight up front, and strengthens the front of the shaft adding to strength and durability up front.  

I'm sold.

Much depends on what you wish to realistically wish to achieve in conjunction with the reduced required arrow specifications avaliabile due to your long draw length.

May wish to consider the Gold Tip Big Game 200 Black.

Arrow - 31"
Insert - 50 gn
Point - 250 gn
Tot wt - ~677 or 10.7 gpp
FOC - 21%
The arrow spine and the dynamic spine required by the bow are w/i 1#.

Not for nothing, but forget the magic 9 grain per pound stuff.  Get the arrow that shoots like a dart, and shoots quiet.  Then go kill a bear.  

I just shot a bear with an arrow that was 7 grains per pound out of a Damon Howett Hunter drawing about 58 lb.  It did more job than was needed.  In fact, some guys in camp that shot their bears with 180 grain 30-'06 had far less damage to their bears than I had.  

If you're tuned, you're tuned.  End of story.

I have two 66" Blacktail TD recurves and their shelves are cut 3/16" (-3/16) past center. I use a velcro side plate which is 1/8" (+2/16) thick. I also have a 30" draw length and I shoot 32" BOP (back of point) 2212 aluminum arrows with a 75 grain point weight. Both bows also have the same 7 3/4" brace height.

My 42# bow is spot on with Stu's calculator with a Form Factor reading of (0). My 37# bow is quite the opposite. My form reading with it is (+9). For some reason, the 37# bow really likes a stiff arrow.

I never look at the Form Factor reading with Stu's calculator until I have the bow I'm shooting with, tuned to perfection. That's when I look at the Form Factor reading and tweak it if it's off from zero (0).

On a side note, when I decided to re-fletch the arrow, I shot the bare shaft with both bows and I still get the same results which match Stu's calculator.

Many people who own a Blacktail recurve, "most" of them tell me their bow likes a stiff arrow too whether they are shooting a carbon or aluminum arrow.

Plentycoupe, Blacktails take very stiff arrows in my experience also.  I draw 31" and my 58# Blacktail needs a 31.75" .300 spine with only 145gr up front and it is still a touch weak.  If I try to shoot a bareshaft with even 200-225gr up front it will shoot very weak almost to the point it is dangerous, and a .320 or .340 spine can't tune and maintain a heavy enough arrow.  You might try a .300 spine and see if you can get a little more arrow weight.  Good luck....Shawn

You could try a gradual build out of your strike plate while using the broadhead of your choice.

Owned a Blacktail for years, it was 65#s at my 28.5" draw, shot 29.5" .400 spine with 225 grains up front, sorry but I believe something is screwie, you are still overspined. Shoot it thru paper at about 15 ft. with a fletched shaft and see what type of tear ya get. Shawn

Thanks for all the reply's. I am limited on supplies as am deployed right now.

Shawn: I do have 5575's that I cut to 31". In order to get them to bareshaft I have to use 125 points and that is way to light. I respect your opinion as it is what had me racking my brain so much. However, comma, I just don't think it works with me and how I shoot.

I will keep you up to date on the results I get.

Thanks again  all.

Jason

Jason, what kind of shafts are those that you mentioned in your first post? Did you spine them yourself? It's not unheard of for some shafts to be marked wrong.

If you're able to move your impact point back to center with the 125 grain heads, I don't see what's so screwy. The right combo with that particular shaft is a 125 grain head. You'll just need something different to get the weight you want.

I know Shawn is going to cringe at this, but the infamous Stu's calculator has you pretty close with your 5575/125 grain combo.

I disagree that you should just use a 7 gpp arrow. There is a reason that most bowyers won't guarantee a bow that is shot with less than 8 gpp. You'll need weight, especially since you are in Alaska.

If I were you, I'd just get some AD Hammerheads or the AD Trads. They'll allow you to use a lot of different point weights and the Hammerheads, in particular are very tough.  They'll give you good weight, too.  My full length Hammerheads, with a cap wrap, 4x4 fletch, the stock aluminum insert, and no point weigh 500 grains.

Gold Tip Big Game 100's should be more than stiff enough and let you get plenty of weight up front. I had 30.5" arrows with 100gr brass inserts and 175gr heads flying excellent from a 61#@27" Schafer being drawn to 30". Probably 70# at that draw and the arrows weigh 700grns. I was bare shafting them at 30yrds!

as much hasta do with the archer as with the arrow shaft, mebbe lots more.  do whatever it takes to get consistently well flying arrows that are accurate for you, not me or anyone else.  this goes beyond the charts and software helpers - it all boils down to you.  all of this is "an experiment of one" and only you can do it first hand.

My favorite bow is a 64" Blacktail TD, 54#@28".  I draw about 29" so the weight is probably more like 56# at full draw.  I'm shooting ACC 3-60s which are listed as .340 spine and have them cut 30.75" from bottom of nock to base of point.  They will group bare shafts with feathered using a 300grain point.  265 grain points work too but start to group a bit left(stiff)  Going down to 175 grain tips and the bare shafts are definitely stiff.  If I go down to 3-49 (.400 spine), I have to drop the point weight lower than I want.  I will say that regardless of what the bare shafts do, either of these shafts fly well when fletched with three 5" feathers and shoot broadheads (265-300gr. with the 3-60s, 125-145gr. with the 3-49) well.  However the 3-60s with 300 grain points (the combination that bare shafts well) is the quietest (heaviest), gives the best arrow flight, and is most forgiving of a bad release.

Comparing my setup with yours, I can see where you might be under spined.  The only way to know is try something stiffer.  My Blacktail (or the way I shoot it) likes a stiff shaft.  I've experimented with AD Hammerheads and heavy points, they work well too.  I'd ignore what other people use and what the charts show.  Shoot whatever works for you.The arrow you need is dependent on a lot of variables, yours and the bow.

It might be in the form or the way we shoot. I've noted that when I make a (bad) release that is not the way I do it properly, it makes the arrow fly like an under or over spined.

When I was in the arrow shaft business I bare-shaft matched hundreds of folks. The charts, calculators, etc. are a good starting point, but individuals and their bows don't always fit. You shouldn't be too surprised if the "standard" doesn't work for you. The way you grip the bow, the way you release, how your bow is set up- all of these things can affect your results. Go with what works, and forget the average.

+1 - folks, don is SO right on the money!   :thumbsup:

monterey nailed it. Sounds like your bow is cut past center. You can shoot those shafts if you build out your sideplate a little. Say, a piece of bootlace or a toothpick under the strike plate.

Good luck!

My arrow tuning results are similar and I am a short drawer. Bareshaft shooting Zipper SXT 51@27" (about my dl) and 30.5" GT 55/75 XTs with 250 up front came out consistently underspined. Couldn't believe it, but am shooting much better now at about 28.5"

After using Stu's and reading all the threads, I thought I would be overspined.  It was surprising, so Don appears to know that of which he speaks.   :D

from my experience your about right

how does 1 know if bow likes a stiff arrow? forgive me im a newbie to the trad way. thinking it has to do with the arrow kicking out in a certain direction

and another on cut past center that refers to ? sorry if it bothers anyone with the questions but 1 will never know until he asks the question n listens  for the answer, thank you.

QuoteOriginally posted by compound_convert:
how does 1 know if bow likes a stiff arrow? forgive me im a newbie to the trad way. thinking it has to do with the arrow kicking out in a certain direction

until your true trad form emerges, the one that's most consistent and feels best, you'll never know for sure what shaft spines and shaft types will work best for you.

that said, shooting into a non-directional butt, right nock is stiff spine, left nock weak.  many reasons for this and many ways to correct.  

in the best of all circumstances, getting local help/mentoring from a trad archery savvy person will cut down yer learning curve and spent dollars a whole bunch.  tough to cyber coach - and do be careful, 'cause you might get well intentioned advice that's just not what you need.

QuoteOriginally posted by compound_convert:
and another on cut past center that refers to ? sorry if it bothers anyone with the questions but 1 will never know until he asks the question n listens  for the answer, thank you.

if you lay down the braced bow on its back and sight down the limbs, using the string to bisect the limbs, what's considered "center shot" is when the string and the arrow plate meet.  that's not a true center shot. which is when the center of the arrow is in perfect alignment with the centered string - and to do that would mean the arrow plate would be 3/16" to the right of center (as with most compounds).

Another vote that Monterey got it.

My arrows are 31" 5575 GT trads with 175 gr. in a 30" draw at 50#.

My bare shafting with a single layer strike plate took on an expensive trek through heavy points and 7795 shafts which were flying crazy and 225 gr points. In fact you're sounding a lot like my early summer posts.

Then I learned on here about center cut vs. arrow diameter affects spine. It's pretty dramatic.

I added a layer of buckskin below my strike plate and everything immediately changed. But still confusing. When I went up to my 67 # limbs it got even crazier.

Then I took another layer of buckskin and masking taped it on OVER the calfskin strike plate and on my first shot of a 5575 bare shaft (at 50#) I was looking at nothing but nock as far back as I wanted to go. A 200 gr. point nocks slightly left. A 145 gr. point nocks slightly right.

I have a 3/16th center cut. So do you.

I'd experiment with building up your strike plate. You can do it temporarily, pretty easy. Mine is two layers of deer skin and one layer of HD velcro rug. When I go to wood arrows this winter I'll have to retune, of course, but arrow diameter and centercut are another important part of the equation.

The guy who really knows about this is Big Jim Babcock.

My point is that I have seen what lots of guys consider good or perfect flight and sorry but I would not hunt with a lot of guys arrow flight. I agree that it has to do with the archer but come on, arrows that are made to be shot out of 70 plus pound compounds cut to say 29"s with 125 grain points should not have to be shot out of 60# or a tad more recurves. I am sorry no one can convince me otherwise. I never said not to do what ya want, I just know I could get a lighter spined arrow even with you shooting it too fly fine out of that bow and not have to play with the strike plate and all that stuff. Shawn

i hear ya shawn, but everybody's different.  and there's a learning curve to all this stuff, that's for sure.  a few years (decades?) down the trad road and things can change, for sure again.   ;)

Agreed Rob! Shawn

I would also like to say that carbons are spined on 14" centers, so take a carbon that say is 65#s on a spine tester now support it at 26" and center the weight at 13"s and see what it spines, a lot more I promise! Shawn

This is one of things I like so much about traditional/instinctive archery. Once you get rid of the pins and the biscuit and release, it's all witchery and can be very big medicine.

  :archer:

I look at it as only you can say whay will work for you. It can change from year to year, and if your new to trad it could very well change month to month.

If it shoots for you, then use it.

Troy

Shawn,
If you don't mind elaborating a bit please, what is it that you would do to, or suggest in order to get me shooting the lighter spined arrows?
Thanks for the input
Jason

Just draw about 3 inches less. Just kidding. I'm interested to hear what he says. Personally, I don't think you'll be able to. I mean, look at your results. With the first arrow you talked about, your were able to get them to bare shaft with the 125 grain point. Same thing with the 5575/ 125 combo. That tells you right there that that spine and point combination is what works for you. It doesn't matter what I, Shawn, Rob or the Pope, says should work, you've seen with your own two eyes what does work.

Since those combos are too light, you'll have to look elsewhere. Adding weight tubes to those shafts might work, but I personally don't have any experience with them and don't know if they change the spine or not.

You, like me, happen to be one of the people that the Stu Miller calculator can be beneficial to. It has been a great predictor for me and has gotten me close to the spine I need and the weight I want. Sure there is some tweaking involved. But I can guarantee you, that you could use a human version of the calculator, and you'll need to do same amount of tweaking. The final verdict will only come when you actually shoot the arrow.

Before that calculator came along, I used some old  tried and true formulas for finding the right wood spines I needed for my bows. I could get close, primarily because I shot the same style bows for years. There would still be some fine tuning needed. When I started shooting various types of bows, recurves, r/d longbows, horsebows, hill-style, etc, I had a very hard time getting the spines right. I ended up with fairly extensive test kits, both in wood and aluminum. I found the Easton charts not to be much help.

Then I started messing with carbon shafts. My first foray into that didn't last too long. This was before Tradgang, so my only source of advice was in pro shops geared toward compounds. More often than not, they had absolutely no idea what I needed, and more than once I bought a lot of stuff I couldn't use. I just stuck with aluminum, tolerating all of the bent shafts.

The last year, maybe longer, I've been fooling with Stu's calculator. It has been amazingly close to a most of the setups I've used over the years. That was my first test of it. To see if it concurred with what I knew worked. It did, for the most part. The first versions of it weren't as accurate as the current one, but they were still pretty close.

I did try to go with a lighter spine. I, too, had read that a lot of guys were really using way too much spine and that they would experience a joyous enlightenment if they'd just throw a few hundred grains on the ends of their arrows, or some such talk. Well, I tried it.

I added a lot of weight, it didn't work, and I ended up with 850 grain arrows. I went down in spine to keep the weight more reasonable. Same poor result. Now, like you, I've got a bunch of arrows that are too light in spine for me to get the weight I want.

But you want to know something interesting. I really don't use it for myself much anymore. I've been shooting Arrow Dynamics arrows out of several of my bows.  These arrows aren't in the calculator. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't matter anyway. I'm able to take one of those shafts, stay within a certain point weight range and get them to fly beautifully. Yesterday, in fact, before bow died on me, I was shooting 4 arrows, each with a different weight point (125,145,175,200). They all hit to the same point of aim out to 20 yards. The only tuning I need to do with those shafts is a minor brace height adjustment.

They aren't nearly as finicky as any of the other shafts I have, and weigh enough that I can shoot normal weight, inexpensive broadheads and still have the total arrow weight I want. The Hammerheads, in particular are the best stump shooting, small game shaft I've ever used. (side note: there's one coming in the mail to you with the other shafts)

Anyway, I hope everything goes well for you.

in the long run, it's mostly about the shooter and not so much the bow, arrow, string, etc.  though carbons can be a bit finicky due to the vast range of their static and dynamic spines.  

some folks absolutely require a small range of arrow spine or bad things happen.  others can make major weak or mega stiff arrows fly consistently well and accurate, and there are more than a few trad gangers that are so blessed.  

in short order you'll know which camp you fall into, and if your arrow spine requirements are pretty rigid, you'll have yer work cut out for ya.  it is what it is.

Rob, are you saying that a person could shoot a bareshaft well with a variety of point weights? We're talking about getting a perfectly tuned arrow here, right? Not just getting a fletched arrow to hit the target.

I mean, I can take a bunch of fletched shafts that are spined over a pretty wide range and keep them all in a pretty small group.  For instance, the other day I shot my wood test kit out of my 50# Hill. The spines range from 50-55 to 80-85. With 125 grain tips on all of them, I was able to keep all 14 arrows on a paper plate at 18 yards. Some had a wobble, but they still went where I aimed.

Now, if I would have shot them all bareshafts or with broadheads, there's no way I could have kept them on that plate. I don't think a shooting machine could either. In fact, I know it wouldn't.

And, even though all of those shafts hit my target, there was one that was the best 65-70. The 60-65 and the 70-75 all worked, too, but it took bareshafting to reveal the best for me.

I just don't get what you're saying. If a mechanical device, the epitome of form and consistency, couldn't shoot a bareshaft perfectly with different point weights, how could a human being?  The only way to do that would be to adjust the draw length accordingly. That's the only variable that matters. The way a person grips the bow or string only adds negative input and can only detract from perfect flight, not improve it.

Sure you can cheat the system, so to speak. Use a bow with more centercut; use a tapered shaft; use a larger fletching; or what have you, but the archer himself and the way he interacts with a bow is a fairly defined act. Don't we all strive to be able to shoot as accurately as a machine?

Think about it. Saying a person could shoot a variety of spines is exactly the same as saying a person could shoot a variety of nock heights or a variety of strike plate thicknesses. Sure, you could still hit where you're aiming, but you wouldn't have perfect flight, which is the point of all of this.

looper, both bare and fletched arrows.  bare shafting is always the first choice for testing, then move on to fletched ... however, even bareshafting can have a fair range of adjustment based solely on the shooter's expertise.

years ago, during my carbon shaft trialing i spent a ton of time and money sussing out a large variety of shafting.  there was no way that 29" beman 340 or even 400 bare shafts would fly well for me at 55#, and only 500's with 200 to 300 up front flew like darts at up to 15 yards.  go figure.  this is not a good or bad thing, we're all just a tad different and not all built from the same cookie cutter mold.  the gist of all this is to do yer own arrow shaft testing.

I would only add this.... I don't know what the expertise level of the individual with the origional question is. I am certainly no expert, I'll add also. A few weeks ago I had never shot a bare shaft in my life. I went out to try it, just a few arrows. I had already PM'd Shawn Leonard about what I should expect. I was super confused cuz I was banging the bullseye with a straight shaft one after another. THEN, I started concentrating on my form and boom, way overspined as suggested. I was not anchoring well. Snap shooting. If the individual in question is experienced and just shoots that way, i'd say get some tube weights and bump up your overall weight and go for it. Otherwise, Shawn was dead on for what I needed up front to get good flight. I mean dead on. I hadn't reponded back to him, so thank you, Shawn. My bow is much quieter and much more forgiving. I'd consider what he is saying, just my 2 cents. Good luck.