Trad Gang

first of all i would like to thank eveyone who gave good advice on my last topic. here is another one though. im using 2117 aluminium arrows on a 55# @ 28 recurve, now my draw is 30 1/2. i have decided to use 100 grain bh. im thinking that i may get away with the lighter bh since the arrow its self is heavy, but the con. energy is behind the heavier heads. basically my question is for my draw and the arrow weight of a smaller bh be the same, since there is more speed, than if i were to use a heavier bh. all i want is deep penetration on the hunts. any and all advice will be appreciated.

Wow, you are gonna be WAY overspined IMO. With 2117's, I am thinking more like 190 up front----depending upon your actual draw length, brace height, etc.

http://heilakka.com/stumiller/

draw is 30 1/2'' brace height is @ 7 1/2. over spined im new to this, not really understanding. so increase the weight then on heads n points. these were recommended to me the 2117 that is. the entire arrow is hitting strait with out kicking to any direction at 20 yards. any info more info will highly appreciated.

How long are those arrows? Is your recurve cut to center? What string are you shooting? What is your feather length?

He won't be overspined according to Stu's calculator. In fact 31" 2117s with a 100 point will be a touch weak for a 55@28 drawn to 30.5, depending on how far from center his riser is cut.  I've got longbows around the same weight and I draw them to a touch longer. 2117s are way too weak for me, even with 100 grain points.

I dont think you will see a difference with a 100 or 125 head. My 2117 full lenth weigh about 578gr.. with a 125gr head. If you have good arrow flight I dont see any reason to change anything. Arrow weight is arrow weight no matter how heavy the head is. BUT a arrow with greater FOC does shoot better.

My 2117s are a touch stiff for my 63@28 GN.. I draw 28"

another question being over spined can effect the arrow n its flight im guessing. what can happen being that i am over spined. im just trying to get all the info needed to have my bow n the arrows working as a solid unit.

Learn something new each day.

Btw, those arrows are going to be really light for you as well. It'll only weigh around 500 grains, which is around 8 grains per pound.  Your bow will be a lot quieter if you go with a heavier arrow.

You'd be better off going with some 2219s and a 145 grain head, which would weigh around 600. You could even go with some 2317s and a 190 grain head for a 635 grain arrow.

QuoteOriginally posted by m midd:
My 2117s are a touch stiff for my 63@28 GN.. I draw 28"

There's a big difference between 63@28 and 63@30.5.

arrows are 32'' i think or 31 1/2 they were never cut. 5 '' shield feathers which i want to go to the 4''

According to Stu, your bow needs 67.6# and your arrows are 65.4#. Pretty close. I am assuming a center cut bow with 1/16" of strike plate and a B50 string.
Pretty close.

QuoteOriginally posted by compound_convert:
another question being over spined can effect the arrow n its flight im guessing. what can happen being that i am over spined. im just trying to get all the info needed to have my bow n the arrows working as a solid unit.

They won't be overspined (too stiff), they'll be underspined (too weak).

To answer your question, overspined or underspined, you won't get good arrow flight.  Too stiff, and they'll hit to the left (assuming you're right-handed). Put a broadhead on them and they'll go further left.

In order to get you to a close starting point, you'll need a few measurements.

First get someone to help you measure an accurate draw length.

Second, you'll need to know what your bow actually pulls. Sometimes a bow can be mismarked high or low.

Third, you'll need to measure your center cut, or how far from the centerline of the bow your arrow rest is.

Lastly, you'll need to know what type of string your using.  Fastflight or b50. And how many strands.

With that information you can get a good starting point using Stu Miller's calculator. I've found it to get me pretty close with a variety of bows and shaft types. You might need a variety of point weights to find the right one for you.

I'd recommend not cutting your arrows until you're absolutely sure of what your actual draw length is. Often times new trad shooters will gain draw length when or if they need to change their shooting form.

QuoteOriginally posted by Spectre:
According to Stu, your bow needs 67.6# and your arrows are 65.4#. Pretty close. I am assuming a center cut bow with 1/16" of strike plate and a B50 string.
Pretty close.

That's what I get, too.

Compound Convert, an uncut 2117 is 33", without the nock. That makes them definitely too weak for you. You could cut them to 32" (measured from the throat of the nock), and they'll work with your 100 grain heads. You'll still have an inch to play with if you need to make them stiffer. I don't think you've got enough spine to go heavier in head weight, though.

Now, 2219's and 145's........nice setup.

Yeah, that's what I'd use. Actually, I did use 2219s and 145s for years. I just bent too many of them.

You know, we never did answer one of his original questions.

Regarding penetration, a 522 grain arrow going over 190 feet per second, will kill just anything you want to shoot in the US. In fact, I think it would shoot through anything you shoot at. However, if your going to be hunting any big boned critters, it might be a good idea to go with an arrow weight of around 10 grains per pound (635 grains in your case). For one thing, it will make your bow a lot quieter. You've got more than enough weight to still sling one 180 fps. With the heavier weight you'll get a lot more momentum, which is a better indicator of performance than kinetic energy.

Trajectory wise, even with a heavy arrow, you'll be plenty flat at hunting distances.

thanks every1, i going to the 2219's and 150 field points. 2117 r kind of weak since they are bending on me little by little when the arrow is hitting semi hard dirt. now i would take it that my point of aim (poa.), n the point of impact will be off. guess what im asking is i will have my bow shooting a little off, n will have to readjust then?

never mind i just read it it will still shoot pretty  flat

Its a practice thing.  Here are a cople extra "fine points" I know Looper and Spectre would give you:

1. Be sure your draw and anchor are as        perfectly repeatable as possible.

2. Body form must also be the same each shot.  Do not torque the bow with hand pressure or allow the bow arm to jump away on release....

3. Your aiming technique comes from the above two.  So, if those are bad your method of "aiming" will also suffer.

Good luck...  it really is fun

lots of caveats - be SURE of your draw length.  be SURE you employ a consistent form.  variations of either will make arrow selection more difficult if not impossible,

imho, what's most important about a hunting arrow is that it's no less than 9gpp for the bow that launches it, that the arrow flies straight and true as if it was on rails, and that the c-o-c broadhead is very sharp.  nothing else matters much.  all this business of foc and spine and shaft material and whatnot is just stuff to talk about and occupy space and time.

getting an arrow to flight straight and be consistently accurate starts and ends with the archer, not so much the arrow.

with stick bow arrows, speed doesn't kill - super sharp points stuck in the critter's right spot is what matters most.  you do what you have to do for consistent accuracy at hunting distances, within hunting venues.

with arrow selection, all of this always boils down to personal testing.  there is no way around this.  nope.  uh uh.    

Rick, what they said about a consistent form and anchor point is exactly right. Take a look at Terry's form clock in the Shooter's Forum. He gives a great visual for what a proper form looks like.  Don't be afraid to post a video of yourself for some constructive criticism.

You also need to make sure you don't torque the string. You must have a relaxed string hand. Too much tension will make it impossible to get good arrow flight.

Now, regarding your point of impact vs your point of aim, a fletched arrow with a field tip is going to go where you aim it, regardless of whether the spine is right or not. An incorrectly spined arrow, or having the wrong nock height, will cause the arrow to wobble, but it will still go where you aim it. You can shoot a wide variety of spines out of the same bow and still get a good group. They may not all fly correctly, but they'll all still go where you aim them. You can, however get so far off in spine or get your nock point so low, that the arrow will hit the riser. You'll hear a click and then all bets are off on the accuracy. Of course, at longer distances, the heavier the arrow, the more drop you'll have.

When you add a broadhead, or shoot a bareshaft, your tuning, or lack of it, is revealed. Take a look at this link:   http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html   and educate yourself.  There is a lot of good information there. There are other good methods, like paper tuning, that work just as well.

At this point, I think you're setup will be close enough that you can concentrate on developing a good form, a good release, and getting your eye accustomed to the arrow flight. You can always fine tune later. In fact, I'd just cut those 2219s to 32", put on some 145 grain field points and start shooting. I'd wait to get broadheads, until you are sure of what you'll need. You might find that you need a form change and end up changing your draw length.

Keep us posted as to how things go for you. Put in the time and you'll be ready to hunt in no time. Don't rush it, though. This is a lifelong pursuit and you'll save yourself a lot of headache by developing good habits early on.

The long draw length can be a real wild card.  Stu's calculator did nothing but confuse me, and gave no good help.  Evidently my form/release/style wasn't programmed in by Stu.

I draw 31" and shoot a 48# @ 31" Black Widow longbow, and bareshaft tuned a full-length 2216 by going all the way up to 250 grain field points.  I've got some 2117's, and if I remember correctly, at full-length I bareshafted them to around 175 grains up front.  The 2216s end up at 730 grains, but they fly true.  With 3-blade Wensel Woodsmans, they shoot straight on from 15 yards all the way out to 50 yards, with no left/right adjustments.  And the bow is silent, due to the extremely heavy arrow.

Archie

Archie, I have a long draw, too, and the calculator works pretty well for me. I just plugged your numbers in, and it looks like the 2117s with 175 grains is pretty darn close to what you need. Some variable can make a big difference in the recommended spine. Cut from center is a big one. So is the string type. One thing I think it doesn't account for is extra stuff hanging on the string. Silencers, extra serving wraps, extra nocks, etc. can have a pretty big effect.

I also think it's important to have accurate measurements. Both for actual draw length, and for the poundage of the bow. It can't, however account for a rough release, a little creep before the shot, torquing the bow, or anything else the shooter does.

I personally think it's a great tool, and have found it to be accurate for me on several different bows with several arrow types.

QuoteOriginally posted by looper:
Archie, I have a long draw, too, and the calculator works pretty well for me. I just plugged your numbers in, and it looks like the 2117s with 175 grains is pretty darn close to what you need. Some variable can make a big difference in the recommended spine. Cut from center is a big one. So is the string type. One thing I think it doesn't account for is extra stuff hanging on the string. Silencers, extra serving wraps, extra nocks, etc. can have a pretty big effect.

I also think it's important to have accurate measurements. Both for actual draw length, and for the poundage of the bow. It can't, however account for a rough release, a little creep before the shot, torquing the bow, or anything else the shooter does.

I personally think it's a great tool, and have found it to be accurate for me on several different bows with several arrow types.

I think the calculator is the cats ass! I love it.

I'm not knocking the calculator at all, not a bit.  But when I tried my 2216s, it only caused me a lot of frustration, several phone calls to Black Widow, and PMs to some tradgangers and Widowwallers that seemed to be well-versed in bow/arrow tuning.  Eventually I had to reject Stu on the 2216s and go with what was bareshafting correctly for me.  I half-expected to hear some responses to that last post to the tune of, "... there's no way those 2216s need that much weight up front for your setup, Archie!"  

I didn't plug in the 2117s, because I didn't have many to shoot, but I have dozens of new 2216 shafts I wanted to make work.  

Funny side note:  As a result of a couple goofy purchases, I ended up with a dozen of both 2117s and 2216s with uni-nocks, the only I've ever had.  The shafts are identical, same camo & nocks.  Inserts were attached to the shafts in a little baggie, so that didn't clue me in, either.   When I was bareshafting, I thought I had a 2117, but had accidentally grabbed a 2216.  I worked with that thing for days, changing tip weights and shooting, shooting, shooting the full-length shaft.  I had never shot 2117s before, but could not figure out HOW IN THE WORLD it was bareshafting identically to the 2216s!  I figured it out eventually, but for a while, I thought I must have severely messed-up form or something.

charts and software calculators work perfectly for some and not at all for others.  what does that tell you?  ;)

Rob, I think that Stu can be a great place to start, but I personally feel that some sort of bareshaft tuning is NECESSARY to end up with the right set-up.  By the way, here's a video of my form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhqb7868Qro

My release may not be olympics-clean, but I don't have bad form, bad enough to be outside of the parameters of a calculator's margin of error.

One thing to consider when choosing a 2219. Easton doesn't make this size anymore.

ok cut the arrows ( 2117 ) now there at 32''. went n got a few new field points that range from 125 to 175 will be checking those today. my form is pretty much the same. i do get good groupings mostly in the range of 2-3 inches @ 20 yards hope to tighten them up though. i just want to thank every1 for all there help. i want to learn this sport pretty good so i may pass it down n teach the little ones. 1 thing i have noticed though you cant learn this all in 1 day. all though i try    :bigsmyl:    :bigsmyl:

Have to agree with Rob, Stus calculator has never worked for me, not even close as a matter of fact.  Nothing like good old experimenting on your own. Take everything with a grain of salt, Spectre for example in his fir post had no clue you were close with spine, due to your long draw and the increased weight because of it. Shawn

Should also say that if you are grouping 2-3"s at 20 yards with good flight, you are one of the better shots out there. Most trad guys cannot do that consistently with 3 or 4 arrow groups. 10-15, yes but I have shot with a lot of folks and most(90%) cannot do that all the time. Shawn

anyone who can consistently group 3" at 20 yards with a bare stick bow is in serious contention for the trad world indoor archery title.   :D

Rick, that is stellar shooting. You might just be a prodigy. I think I'd be finding some 3d tournaments to enter.

Decided to bite my lip.

not like that guys been shooting for compound for a while i use three arrows. i do the have the ones that go way off. not saying that that im the best or even good but at a target im ok n confident. its all about not rushing the shot, n thats a known distance. you got to be good when your an active duty scout sniper, the same basics are used from rifle shooting. and i was not shooting like that right off the top, got to watch the what i say here. on another note. the 2219 have quieted the bow but the arrows r kicking to the bottom and right. another question i shot some plastic vanes they were ok, but was told that they through the arrow off. thanks for all the help, n i will never bring the grouping size again, promise.

Compound Convert, don't worry man.

I think a lot of people worry too much about little things. Howard Hill said to not worry about the quirks of a bow and to just shoot it.  That's what I do.

I recently started shooting a recurve bow for the first time in my life too. I have been using compound bows since I was 12 years old and there is just NO challenge to them.

And it took me a few tries to get the hang of the recurve bow. But, I shoot pretty decently, I think.  I'm shooting 4-5 inch shot groups at 20 yards myself with a few strays every once in a while.

My broadheads fly better than my field points, so I have to change the weight on the field points.  It's not an emergency though.

And I think you're right when it comes to basic marksmanship. When you have a foundation in the principles of something like shooting then you can generally apply it to other things like archery as well.

I'm not a trained sniper myself though. I'm just a guy in Arkansas. I've taught myself how to do everything with recreational sports that I practice. I didn't grow up with a dad that knew anything about the woods, fish, guns or bows.

Last year I knocked out a culling buck at 225 yrds running approx 20mph with a brain shot with a "weak" .270.  That's just because I practice and I try to remain confident in my abilities. It also helps to know the ballistics of your ammunition and the drop rate at distance.

So, I have no doubt that you've transitioned to traditional archery pretty well. Have fun with it. I know it's excited me and given me a new challenge.

I wouldn't worry too much about the technical mumbo jumbo. The indians didn't have weight charts and they killed plenty of wild game with chert arrowheads that all weighed differently.

I can't give you any advice, because I'm new to this as well, but just remain confident in your abilities and have fun with it. It's just a new challenge.

The great Japanese ronin samurai Miyamoto Musashi said once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things. Pretty much, once you devote yourself to mastering one thing and do it well, you have a better ability of mastering other crafts and expanding your abilities. You develop your discipline and know how to master your crafts.

Good luck with this season.

Rick, I hear you. We're just messing with you. There are a lot of good shots on here. Some are tournament winners.

Yes, plastic vanes will give you some odd flight. They will bounce off the riser and give you some odd flight, especially at close distances. Some use them with a stand off type arrow rest. They are waterproof, but they are louder than feathers. Don't try to tune your bow with them, if your shooting off the shelf.

Are you shooting those 2219s bareshafted, or with fletching? If, bareshaft, they are hitting low and right, that would show a high nock and a weak spine. However, a nock point that is too low will cause the shaft to hit off the shelf.

When you bareshaft, only change one variable at a time. First, you want to get the nock height in the correct spot. Then you can work on getting the windage right. Also, make sure you make your fletched comparison arrows exactly the same as the bare shaft. Length, insert, point weight all have to be identical.

It's alright to post about your groups. A lot of us post pictures and videos all the time.