Trad Gang

And can ya tell me why, Thanks A Bunch ...

I have some CL strings for my vintage bows in particular a '59 Kodiak I still shoot.  Naw, I can't tell you why-there is probably not any difference compared to Flemish; but a good friend made some for me and I am happy to use them.

They are all I shoot.  I personally find them,
Consistent and a bit more user friendly.  To my mind they tend to shoot quite too bit that's just me.:.

I tinker with them from time to time.  The reason is because I make and sell them, so I try to stay familiar with them.

I'm still partial to flemish, but a well made endless will work just fine.

Chad

For me I like an endless loop dacron on my older recurves over a flemish.I do like a flemish twist on my longbows that take a FF tpye string.I do shoot an endless loop Angel Majesty string on my Harrison HSS,it is a quiet string with a pair of cat whiskers.

I still shoot dacron strings and the endless loop string lasts longer for me.

I prefer them on my older Bear recurves,they shoot good and look right since that is what came on them originally.

i can make an endless loop string the exact length i want it 1st time every time.

in dacron B50 they are less than half the price of a good flemish string and they work just fine for me.

Those who are sticklers for accuracy, like Olympic archers, use endless loop strings.  I'm sure there is a reason you don't see flemish strings on Olympic bows.  Must have something to do with accuracy at a level I sure can't shoot.  :(

ehhhhhhhhhh, they're all good - pick whatever type of bowstring makes you and yer bow(s) sing best.   :D

I do because I'm too lazy to learn how to make a flemish string.

I do and I use it because it's always worked so why change?

I do....make my own.

Cause I can!  :D  

Like Chad, make both for folks and the fact that materials have changed so much in the past 20 yrs!

When I started in the 70s, that was all most folks shot, too!

Consistency!!!

I do because Dan Toelke said so.  :)   Truthfully I've shot both... its just personal preference.

Flemish Twist for me, I think it's what a longbow should have on it..

I make my own endless and that's what I shoot. Flemish is fine, just make the endless quicker and better on getting them exact.

I also make my own endless loop strings.  My dad taught me to make them about 60 years ago.  I've built a few flemish strings but just never liked them myself so have stuck with the old endless type.  I don't think they're "better" than flemish, but I just like them better myself.  My old string jig has seen hundreds of strings built on it.

Joe

Count me in as a endless freak also. Make my own and TO ME it's just simpler and more precise. JMHO your mileage may vary.

I make and use both.  No real preference for eihter.  Just depends on my mood.

Thanks for all the replies folks, I appreciate it ...

I shoot endless, less stretching im my opinion. And more traditional... :o ))

I like a string that has very little or no twist to it. That can only happen with an endless string. So that's what I shoot without exception... unless I want to shoot a flemish string for a while and shoot them without exception.
  :D

QuoteOriginally posted by frank bullitt:
... When I started in the 70s, that was all most folks shot, too!

when i started in the mid 50's, you could ONLY find endless strings.

QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
I like a string that has very little or no twist to it. That can only happen with an endless string. So that's what I shoot without exception... unless I want to shoot a flemish string for a while and shoot them without exception.
   :D  

endless with no twists for me as well!

I made used Flemish strings until I watched Rob's tutorial on making an endless loop string and jig.  It looked easy, but more important for me, accurate, so I gave them a try.  I still make use the Flemish strings but 80-90% of the ones I build now are endless; it's much easier to consistently make them the correct length.

Also make endless which I prefer over Flemish.

Let me ask you guys with the experience with both strings a question.

Can an endless loop string cause handshock?

The reason I ask is that I like an endless loop string better as I think my Fedora shoots better with one, but I notice that it causes my bow to have a little handshock where it doesn't with the flemish. Both Strings are D97 by the way.

Plus my bow is louder than what I would like.

QuoteI like a string that has very little or no twist to it.  

Why?  I'll see if I can find the slow-motion video of a string with no twists on release--it has a "parachute" effect that can cost you a little bit of performance and add a good bit of noise.  When I make an endless string, I make it a point to allow enough for a little twist.

 

QuoteCan an endless loop string cause handshock?

The reason I ask is that I like an endless loop string better as I think my Fedora shoots better with one, but I notice that it causes my bow to have a little handshock where it doesn't with the flemish.Plus my bow is louder than what I would like.

Depends on a lot of variables, but I'd say it's possible.  Endless is generally noisier than flemish.

Chad

Doing a little research for the slo-mo...found that at Angel Majesty string material recommends several twists in a string made from that material, some shooters say that the parachute effect "absolutely kills" arrow speed...

Well, ther's a ton of slo-motion archery shots on You-Tube...I don't have time to look through them all.  I figure there's one of a string parachuting, if anyone wants to hunt it up.

Chad

Great feed back, Im surprised at the number of people that still use them, and why with no twist at all ?? Thanks Again, Adam

The only srings I trust on my bows are the ones I make. And since I prefer to make endless strings, that's what I shoot.

I am in the market for a new endless loop string.  If anyone here is interested in making one to sell me shoot me a pm and we will discuss details.  Just a heads up, No FF.

zach i can put ya on my supplier if you would like. PM me

TTT--still want to know the reasoning behind no twist at all.

Chad

I can't imagine how a well waxed string could possibly "parachute" with or without twists; which might explain why you can't find a video of it actually happening.  I CAN imagine a flat string making some wind noise, maybe even wind planing a little bit, which are reasons enough to have at least a few twists in an endless loop string.

I always twist mine a couple times. Just something my dad has always done and so do I. We've killed plenty of deer with them twisted and I'm sure Charlie has shot a few himself without it twisted. If it works for ya use it.

here we go again with myths and old wive's tales.

endless bowstrings, or any bowstring type for that matter, have NOTHING TO DO WITH "HANDSHOCK" on release.  "handshock" is all about the BOW and ARROW, and maybe the shooter, too.  NOT ABOUT THE BOWSTRING.  

"parachute"???  if you THINK that's an issue, and it IS NOT, do what most endless string users do - round off the string with a coupla twists and make it more "aerodynamic".

and before it comes up again for the hundredth time, if you make up two bowstrings with the same string fiber and strand count, both strings will be of equal strength.

either string type will work just fine and get the job done.  this is purely SUBJECTIVE stuff.  the only real diff'rence 'tween the two string types is HOW THEY ARE MADE and how they look.  not how they perform for bowhunters.  period.

let's get back to shootin' and huntin'.

Quote...which might explain why you can't find a video of it actually happening.  

I have seen the video--wish I'd saved it's location.  It's not important enough to me to spend a lot of time looking, as I don't have anything to prove.

When I make an endless string, I put a few twists in it--there's no reason I know of not to.  But, there might be a reason I don't know about--that's why I asked.  That's how I learn.

There are some well-known archers that feel that string parachute is a legitimate concern.  Obviously they are not only better shots than me, but smarter too--they don't get into these debates.  Only stands to reason that, if nothing else, it would add considerably to the string noise.

I just wanted to hear the reason for NOT putting in any twist from those who advocate it, if there is a reason.

Chad

what chad just said - i always put some twists in an endless string to "round it off" - looks good and won't parachute ... HAH!  :D

You can put a twist in the endless loop if you want to shorten the string a bit.  Other than that, twisting it a few times will have no effect positive or negative, IMO.  If your string is initially the "perfect" length, then twisting it a bit can bring it back to that length if it stretches.

Here's the very first instruction for an Angel Majesty endless bowstring.

"1. "Majesty" strings should be twisted between 20 and 40 times before installing the string into a bow."

Straight from the manufacturer.  AM is a bit different than other materials, because it has a coating on the strands, but I don't know that it makes that much difference.

I've e-mailed Ray at BCY to see what he can tell me.

Chad

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
here we go again with myths and old wive's tales.

endless bowstrings, or any bowstring type for that matter, have NOTHING TO DO WITH "HANDSHOCK" on release.  "handshock" is all about the BOW and ARROW, and maybe the shooter, too.  NOT ABOUT THE BOWSTRING.  

"parachute"???  if you THINK that's an issue, and it IS NOT, do what most endless string users do - round off the string with a coupla twists and make it more "aerodynamic".

and before it comes up again for the hundredth time, if you make up two bowstrings with the same string fiber and strand count, both strings will be of equal strength.

either string type will work just fine and get the job done.  this is purely SUBJECTIVE stuff.  the only real diff'rence 'tween the two string types is HOW THEY ARE MADE and how they look.  not how they perform for bowhunters.  period.

let's get back to shootin' and huntin'.

easy Rob. I'm not trying to argue with you, but I am smart enough to feel the difference between the two strings. I put some bow hush on my bow yesterday and seems to have made a difference. Regardless of what you say, I know what I feel with my bow when I shoot it.

So, unless the Endless Loop string is built to "exact" length for the bow & has no twist "at all" how do ya bring it back to perfect brace ht. after they stretch some, cause they "all" stretch "some" ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
here we go again with myths and old wive's tales.

endless bowstrings, or any bowstring type for that matter, have NOTHING TO DO WITH "HANDSHOCK" on release.  "handshock" is all about the BOW and ARROW, and maybe the shooter, too.  NOT ABOUT THE BOWSTRING.  
.

I can tell a difference on my recurve, there is a buzz in the handle with a endless and not with a flemish.  Same arrows, same brace height.
 But I'm just a kid compared to some in shooting a bow.

QuoteOriginally posted by L82HUNT:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
here we go again with myths and old wive's tales.

endless bowstrings, or any bowstring type for that matter, have NOTHING TO DO WITH "HANDSHOCK" on release.  "handshock" is all about the BOW and ARROW, and maybe the shooter, too.  NOT ABOUT THE BOWSTRING.  
.

I can tell a difference on my recurve, there is a buzz in the handle with a endless and not with a flemish.  Same arrows, same brace height.
 But I'm just a kid compared to some in shooting a bow. [/b]

maybe "buzz" is a better word for for what I feel instead of shock. Regardless, I feel it with the endless loop and not the flemish.

You're gonna have to tune your bow different for that string. Buzzing, noise, and vibration are all tuning issues. I shot and sold 100s of bows and I don't swap all the flemies out for endless for nothing......y because that's what I like and that's what works for ME. Almost every bow I sell still has that endless loop that I sold it with on it.  I've made a few believers and that makes my string maker very happy!

"bow shock" or "hand shock" is the prime result of bow and arrow issues, and maybe operator issues.  in the order of propelling an arrow, the bow limbs are the engine, the bowstring is the transmission and the arrow is the vehicle.  

if the string MATERIAL is hmpe polyethylene, it has far less elasticity than dacron polyester.  SO, if you spin up a string and twist up another string of the SAME fiber, there should be no difference in the "hand shock" category - you either gots some or you don't.  

BUT, if you go from dacron to hmpe there IS a possibility that the less stretchy fiber IS in some part responsible for the "shock", because you probably will need a different spine and/or heavier mass weight arrow as dictated by the higher performance of hmpe fiber.

but a string TYPE being responsible for "hand shock" - uh uh, not gonna happen, i've never seen any physics to prove that out.  if you think that's yer problem, look elsewhere for the culprit.    

Chad... it's just a habit of mine from a long time ago. I couldn't back up my observations with hard numbers like we can today, but I really liked the way it made a bow shoot... typically a bow braced well below suggested height.

I still make em that way and I still like the hell out of them... I do have to serve my silencers in place though.

I started out with B-40 and things have changed a lot with all string material since then. I don't think about it much. Just make em and shoot em.
   ;)

Folks, I really didn't want this to be a which is Better, Seriously, I was just wondering if anyone still shot Endless strings, thats all, but MAN did this take off, Not my intentions by Any Means ,,, Good Luck All ....

QuoteOriginally posted by AdamH:
Folks, I really didn't want this to be a which is Better, Seriously, I was just wondering if anyone still shot Endless strings, thats all, but MAN did this take off, Not my intentions by Any Means ,,, Good Luck All ....

don't see this thread as an "us and them", it's all good, just folks telling it like they see it and for all to make up their own minds about bowstrings.  like i said before, it's all good.  besides, nobody's brought up "skinny strings" yet.  :D

I went to shooting one recently, but I returned to the flemish.

LBR

I am in need of a Dynaflight 97 flemish string. I don't know alot about how much this stretches, but I can tell you it needs to be around 56 7/8- 57" length after it has quit stretching. With that in mind, what length would I order to begin with ?  2 bundle is fine, I guess.

Bow is Martin Dream Catcher 50#@28, 60 AMO. I'd like to avoid so many twists that installing puffs is a p.i.t.a.  I would order on your site but I don't know what length. If I order too long, I end up with too many twists to achieve correct b.h.

Thanks Charlie--an honest answer is all I wanted.  Didn't learn much from it though--lol.  I understand sticking with what works for you.

Lamplighter, I'll send you a p.m.

Chad

QuoteI do have to serve my silencers in place though.

I imagine that would work about as well as twisting the string--just thought of that.

Waiting on a further reply from Ray at BCY--had to give him more detail.  He did say they recommend some twist in all of their strings.

For those that don't know, "Ray" is Ray Browne--head honcho at BCY Fibers, one of the top two bowstring manufacturers in the world.

Chad

my flemish string got messed up this morning and since im leaving in the morning for denton hill i had to buy a endless loop string from a local proshop so i could shoot.  set it up how my other string was and gave it time to settle. fired 3 arrows at 10 yds and broke the nock off one and all 3 were touching feathers. will work until my new strings come in

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
...i had to buy a endless loop string from a local proshop so i could shoot.  set it up how my other string was and gave it time to settle. fired 3 arrows at 10 yds and broke the nock off one and all 3 were touching feathers. will work until my new strings come in

"will work until my new strings come in"     :laughing:

That is all I shoot on my Bear T/D's beacuse they WORK FOR ME...

What's a heavier string? Let's say 1 inch of a 12 strand ff string for example? What's going to weigh more, 1 inch of 12 strands with no twists or 1 inch of 12 strands with 4 or 5 twists? In my mind when you un twist the 4 or 5 twists in that 1 inch of string, it'll be longer than 1 inch meaning more material and more weight. I know it may or may not be that big of difference....everyone has done their own testing but there are so many variables in testing its hard to say....but a lighter string will mean a faster arrow.  But if you want an easier time tuning a flemish is the way to go. Heavier strings will absorb noise and so will the twists. I personally like to work to perfect some things so that's why I like wood arrows and endless strings because once you get them right there isn't anything better...that's just my opinion.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
...i had to buy a endless loop string from a local proshop so i could shoot.  set it up how my other string was and gave it time to settle. fired 3 arrows at 10 yds and broke the nock off one and all 3 were touching feathers. will work until my new strings come in

"will work until my new strings come in"      :laughing:  [/b]

shot pretty good with it this weekend but it just kept stretching. would get in braced good then shoot half a 3d course and just to twiste it mid way to keep the brace hieght.  but ya shot pretty good with that string on it

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
...i had to buy a endless loop string from a local proshop so i could shoot.  set it up how my other string was and gave it time to settle. fired 3 arrows at 10 yds and broke the nock off one and all 3 were touching feathers. will work until my new strings come in

"will work until my new strings come in"       :laughing:   [/b]

shot pretty good with it this weekend but it just kept stretching. would get in braced good then shoot half a 3d course and just to twiste it mid way to keep the brace hieght.  but ya shot pretty good with that string on it [/b]

was the string fiber dacron?  it's either that and/or poor construction that gave ya stretching fits.

Where is Rob's tutorial on making endless loop strings?

Any help appreciated!

topic archives, how to - resources ....

endless spinning (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000100)

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
   

quote:

---

Originally posted by sawtoothscream:
...i had to buy a endless loop string from a local proshop so i could shoot.  set it up how my other string was and gave it time to settle. fired 3 arrows at 10 yds and broke the nock off one and all 3 were touching feathers. will work until my new strings come in

"will work until my new strings come in"        :laughing:    [/b]

shot pretty good with it this weekend but it just kept stretching. would get in braced good then shoot half a 3d course and just to twiste it mid way to keep the brace hieght.  but ya shot pretty good with that string on it [/b]

was the string fiber dacron?  it's either that and/or poor construction that gave ya stretching fits.

---

yup dracon. had to rush to find a string and only could use what the local shop had. that was some stretchy stuff haha.