Trad Gang

I hope nobody takes this the wrong way because my point is not to stir up anything but there's an observation I've made that I think needs to be addressed. I was talking to a friend of mine that shoots a compound about archery and hunting. I asked him if he would ever take up shooting traditional archery and he said he has always thought about making the switch but has been put off by several different trad guys over the years that look down on him or treat him like a lesser person because of the fact that he shoots a compound. He said its bad enough that it put a bad taste in his mouth for traditional archery all together. I must ad as a former compound guy and from observance that in some cases he has a point. I have run into on many occasions trad guys that talk about compound guys like they are losers, bad or not real hunters and just somehow almost like an enemy of sorts.
          So that being said, my friend is a great guy that has on many different hunts packed into the mountains, stalked and shot elk, deer, bears from very close and is an incredible hunter that doesn't deserve to be put down by trad guys for shooting a compound. My main point for writing this is I think we in the traditional archery world need to reach out to compound and gun hunters, be friendly and there friend to develop in them the desire to take up the traditional way of hunting instead of driving a wedge inbetween us. And in writing this I know there are many bad eggs in every group, sometimes that makes it hard to not despise the compound guys but we also have to remember there are some trad guys that are less than appealing as well.
    Also at the end of the day we are all outdoorsmen that love to hunt (again not counting the bad eggs) and we are on the same team so to speak. If it wasn't for all the people that hunt in some fashion, the trad world might lose some of our freedoms to people much worse such as the anti-hunter tree hugger types.  
    In conclusion I would like to say some of the best people I know that do treat everyone kindly are trad guy's, many of whom are on this site. I am not trying to slam our group as much as I'm trying to hold us to a higher standard. So to all a challenge to reach out, be kind, make friends with, listen too, and leave a positive influence on every compound guy you meet. I we go about things this way I think we'll have more and more people to share our love of traditional archery with.

:campfire:      :campfire:

I have voiced the same sentiments before and was condemned for being a "big tenter." All the while we complain about lack of hunter recruitment, loss of land to hunt on while a lot of us could see our biggest enemy if we would wipe the fog off our shaving mirror in the morning.

:clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:

I agree with the above, but.......

It goes both ways. I get looked down upon if I take my bow into a wheelie bow shop to tune arrows or something.

Tell your buddy it is just like driving. We are all In cars, and use the same roads. Some people drive ignorantly, some dont.

Whether sticks or compounds, there are good people in each tribe, as well as some not so good.

I think everybody worries about everybody else way too much, in all areas of life.

Boone,how right you are. It goes both ways unfortunately. In a perfect world,we would all
see past our differences,find common ground,and
realize what we have IN COMMON. We all need to
understand how right you are on our COMMON enemy,
THE ANTI-HUNTER.

How else am I supposed to be better than everyone else if I'm not really   :confused:  

I try my hardest not to be Snooty.

Yes, we all need to show respect for the other side(s).

Lately, in our club, one of the top compound shooters (let's call him George) came to one of my trad shooting buddies with a request.  One of the other compound shooters in our club (let's call him Fred) shot Bowhunter Freestyle Limited (no mechanical releases), and usually won his category.  George thought the reason Fred was always winning was because there weren't many people who shot in Fred's category, and not because he was such a good shot.  George was tired of Fred winning his category so easily.  He thought he was a much better shot than Fred, and that it was about time Fred recognized that.

So George asked my friend if he had a tab he could borrow, and my friend loaned him a tab. As the weeks went by, we wondered how George was doing with the tab, but we didn't notice him around the club, so evidently he was practicing when he could be there by himself and not be bothered by anyone else.

After some weeks, George gave my friend back the tab, and said it really wasn't his thing.  What he meant was, I think, that it was much harder shooting with a tab than he thought it would be, and it wasn't going to be any pushover to beat ol' Fred.

I think it's nice when things like this happen, because it gives people more appreciation of what goes on on the other side of the fence.  Like everything else, I'm sure we'll go on feeling superior to the compounders, and they'll go on feeling superior to us, but if we act in a friendly manner towards each other and make a joke about it, we will all be better off.

Boone the Hunter,

Very....Very well said. We are all in the same boat, we just row with different "paddles". The people that are out to stop the killing of animals care NOT what weapon we pursue them with. We have much more in common than we have differences.

Amen........brother.......Amen

Winterhawk1960

I may tease my compound-bow-shooting-buddy a little about him using "training wheels" and such... but the way I look at it is, I loved to hunt with a cf gun and a compound bow but I really, really, really love hunting so much more with a flintlock and longbow.  That's the way I think we should come across.

Even with the fun teasing, I'm always telling my friend how much he'd love hunting with trad gear.  (He's a much better hunter than me anyhow.)  Actually, he does enjoy shooting my Hill bow and I think I'll have him hooked soon!     :archer:

By and large I think generalists in any hobby/sport feel defensive around the specialists, and the specialists do take pride in holding what they see as higher standards than the generalists. You see that in duck hunting, model train collecting, golf, tennis, beer making, barbecuing, etc. I try to keep in mind that any time I talk about trad archery with a modern archer, I need to be careful.

Just last night a modern bowhunter asked me if I thought it was time to start shooting for the Sept. 1 opener. I said, "Yeah, definitely, but I shoot every day of the year." And I should have added that "I have to, or I wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 15 yards." Anyway, he thought I was being snooty when I wasn't.

I think that happens a lot.

What I DO try to do is not wince or wretch or otherwise connip visibly when they tell me about taking an 80 yard shot, hit or miss. I just let it go.

not even going to....no way!!!!!!!!!!! going here....  :knothead:    :notworthy:    :rolleyes:    

I agree with what you originally posted.  I can't tell you how many times I have been at a traditional event, and heard people putting down compound shooters, easier, training wheels, we all know the sayings.  The problem is, those very same people go out on the practice range or the 3D course and can't hit a target cosistently at 15 yards or less.  On the course, they are merely content with "foam is good".  I belong to an archery club that is mostly compound shooters, and these guys are there just about every night practicing.  They shoot indoors, field shoots, 3D shoots...they practice quite a lot.
they are dedicated to getting better, no matter what the equipment.  If some of our fellow traditional shooters would spend more time practicing to improve and less time condemning compound shooters, there might not be that stigma.

It goes both ways...it's all archery and bowhunting to me....


Lee

Boone, There's always a few "bad apples" in any group.....I know as a whole, your friends experience is the exception.

That said, I've seen that attitude myself right here on TG(not too often though).  

Some have been veterans that have been trad for a long time and think they have somehow become "elitist".

But most of the time when I see it, its from a guy that switches over to trad and a couple months later is taking about others like they aren't as good as him because he shoots trad...rediculous instant elitist!

Some of the best hunters I know don't shoot trad and we hunt side by side....

Amen.

"The words of the reckless pierce like swords, but the tongue of the wise brings healing". Proverbs 12:18  :campfire:    :coffee:    :archer2:

One of my best friends and I shared our first bow killed deer together back in '07. It was his first year hunting with a bow and my I don't know 10th. His choice a brand new Bear compound with expandable heads on carbon shafts. Mine the same dang recurve I've had since I was 13 shooting full length alumniums with hand me down broadheads from my dad. Same hugs same Hi-fives were shared with each deer. Heck I tracked his and him mine. I shot his a few times I'll admit that. I pinned soda bottles at 30yds, he wouldn't even draw mine. Point here is none. Heck we are all on the same team. I'll admit I'll count mil dots on a scope with the best. I can squeeze a release, my choice your choice no, but we are no better then the other guy. The question I always ask guys who think they are better then their fellow hunter 'cause they shoot traditional equipment is this, "have you ever been in the military or a sports team." Come on guys we all know that ones job is no important then the other as long as we aim for the common goal. Take a kid hunting (with whatever meens brings them joy) take a kid fishing, grab the youngins and just walk around outside. Our sport (cause yeah it really is) our free time our lifestyle is always in jepordy. Support each other (yeah even if they choose a crossbow..which by the way any of you ever opened the original archers digest?) Don't doubt the fact that I'll give jabs to the wheelies when its all in fun, but keep them on your side cause divided we fall.

Some folks look down on others because they do things differently. Happens in among the compounders, among the traditionalists, everywhere. Shouldn't stop anyone from pursuing something. I guess it does. But it shouldn't. I didn't know anyone but compound and rifle hunters when I picked up a recurve and started shooting it. Even went into the local archery shop full of compounders. Had some rude remarks thrown my way from time to time. It just slid off my back like water. I think today we all can get a little thin skinned and let things bug us too much. Sorry your friend had a bad experience. But man up. Go for it guy. Jump in the water's fine. No reason to let what someone else says effect your actions, dreams, etc. I can remember when you could joke around with folks. Boy, anymore you got to be so careful of stepping on toes. Have we as people gotten more touchy about what is said? Do we put too much weight in it and expect others to be more careful of opposing opinions? Or are we just becoming more rude and abrasive in our talk and don't show compassion and concern for others in our words?  I think it's a little of all of the above.

If you are a legal hunter with a code of ethics then you are my bother/sister!

I don't care of you're hunting frogs with a slingshot or hunting big game with a big bore rifle.

Nuff said....

God bless,Mudd

Excellent post. We're all just people after all.

Good post-like most have said, it's the person, not the tool, that makes the hunter.  I have a good friend who shoots trad and has taught me most of what I know.  I have another good friend who lives close by so we shoot alot together and I raz him about his "wheelie bow", but we each get excitted when the other makes a great shot on the 3-D course we shoot together. I can't wait to be in the woods with both of them this fall.

Boone,
Well said, I have 3 friends who have converted, and or added trad to their methods.
I know of what you speak, and I too think that we as traditional hunters can do more than we do to promote our method for others to try.
In short, if we all liked vanilla, there would be no need for chocolate.
Thanks

It always helps to remember that these days all hunters are a minority.  So that makes us a minority of a minority.  We need each and every ethical hunter out there.  No matter what method they use.  

MAP

I agree.  I know several people that hunt with crossbows and some others that use guns.  They are great people and ethical hunters too.  Then I hear other's that I think are hunters slamming both types of hunting.   Then I wonder if that person may be an anti-hunter that shoots a bow.  I knew of one person that used to love to be in the great outdoors and hunted as much as possible with a crossbow.   This person could have hunted with a gun but greatly love hunting with their crossbow.  They did need some assistance but did not quit just because of some disabilities.  It is troubling to me when hunters condemn other type of hunters.  I am thankful that we can still hunt in this great nation and hope that future Americans can enjoy the same freedoms that we have enjoyed.

Well, tell them to stop calling trad hunters eccentrics.    :bigsmyl:  

Seriously though, good thoughts.  Some people just can't help themselves no matter what activity they are doing.

Well said Boone.

Use what you want to use is my opinion.  My boss wants to get into archery and I handed him my compound.  Wy you my ask?  Because he will get the bug no matter what.  

In my opinion it isnt the means it is the feeling you get when you take game.  If the only way you wcould kill a deer is via claymoore but you still got the "high" then you are doing it right.  I work with some people who dont give a damn and just to go to shoot a stupid deer.  I go out to feel teh woods, too feel nature, to feel the shot and give thanks to the animal who gave its life for me.  Thats why Im into trad.  because you people feel the same way I do.  Its not about FPS with you guys, it about the hunt.  Thats the problem I see these days.  It just so happens you can go to an archery shop and get a fine tuned wheeled bow and be shooting knocks in 3 minutes.  Its the people not the weapon.

Good stuff. I didn't pick up my stick for other people. I picked it up for me. Its all a means to an end. Whatever gets you outside and gets your blood pumping is fine with me.

I have always been more concerned with ethics than weaponry. What I choose to hunt with is my business and everyone has their right to choose as well. If you are efficient with the chosen weapon and are law abiding you can share my camp anytime.

I'm one of Fred Bear's "Two Season Hunters"!

This one hits close to home for me. For the first time in over a decade I am not using trad gear to bow hunt this year. I have an injury and a new family and my practice time has been too painful or spent gootching my baby girl or spending time with my wife. I still check Tradgang most every day. I am still a trad hunter and this is by far not a lifestyle change. Most of my close friends and family use the modern stuff and so am I this year. We never make fun, poke, prod or tease. We hunt.

While talking with my best good bud K.S.Trapper about this, he told me "it's all hunting bud, enjoy every bit of it."

Todd

Even though I've made the decision to go 100% Trad in my Archery gear I still talk to & about the Compound & X-Bow shooters with respect.
My thoughts have always been that if the person put in the time to know their equipment & their limitations with their gear to make ethical kills deserve respect.

IMHO it's not the gear we need to be so wound up about but the people & we need to keep our friends & make new ones.

After swapping over to Trad equipment in 2008 and being able to take a nice buck with my longbow I have done all my bowhunting with the stick. I started shooting bows in 1993 because my son wanted to get into it. I, as most of us started with a compound bow. I was one of the guys who had to have every new thing they made for one. I shot tournaments and got very good with the thing. I remember thinking that there was no way a stick bow could compare to a compound. I was right, there is no comparison between the two other then they shoot an arrow. I have taken my stick bow to several of the 3-D events around where I live and I have seen and heard the comments about it from those who don't understand why we shoot them. As always I offer to let them shoot it so they can see and feel the difference. The first thing they notice is the weight difference between the two. After a few arrows they see that, you know I could shoot one of these with a little practice. (That's what hooked me LOL!) So like everyone who has posted on the subject I too feel that it is about education and the willingness to share one's knowledge. If it keeps a man in the woods longer, then it should not matter what he shoots is how I feel. Will I ever shoot a wheel bow again? I think so, maybe, or maybe not. But I will not allow someone else make that call for me. I shoot a Trad bow because I want to and because of a couple of very good friends who took the time to help me get started. I thank you both for your help as you know who you are. That's my 2 cents worth. God bless you and your families.......Dusty

QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
If you are a legal hunter with a code of ethics then you are my bother/sister!

I don't care of you're hunting frogs with a slingshot or hunting big game with a big bore rifle.

Nuff said....

God bless,Mudd

AMEN Mudd.
I can always rely on you to put things in the proper perspective.
Thanks

When i shot a compound i did not really consider myself a "Wheel" guy. Now that i shoot a recurve i dont consider myself a "trad" guy. In my opinion i have always just been an archer. No matter what equipment you decide to use you will be an archer in my mind. I believe as hunters or target shooters we NEED to be on the same team for are sport to grow and prosper
Just my opinion, Jim

I never had a very good opinion of compound guys until I missed a few nights of my Friday night trad league and had to make them up on Wed night with the wheelie guys. It was a trip. They made me feel right at home. I received a lot of compliments.

I'm also fairly active on Twitter and the majority of that community is compound shooters. We joke but there is never hostility. They have proven very receptive and I've even coerced a few to buy trad equipment.

Honestly, Ive experienced more snobbery within the trad community from our "bad apples" than from the wheelie bow community.

It is easy to sound "holier than thou" when you are seeking "more of a challenge". I agree that we need to work on how we word things and error on the side of being overly polite.

All one has one do is pick up a traditional bowhunting magazine to get a bellyful of elitism. In almost every issue someone takes a swipe at modern gear and its users. I defy you to search the pages of any modern bowhunting publication and find someone taking a swipe at trad guys. Ive never understood the need to tearr down the other side.
I was member of a traditional bowhunting club for years and it was constant bickering and infighting. Every campfire someone was jumping on the soapbox to berate modern archers. Same thing at trad shoots. Its really turned me off to the traditional crowd. I still hunt and shoot my recurves and longbows, but its usually alone or in the company of modern bowhunters. They are usually interested in what and how im shooting without feeling the need to be judgemental. To bad its never the other way round...

Last week there was a thread on here about "Compounding tradtional" or something like that. Sadly, we even do it to ourselves.

I reluctantly have to agree with some of what Lee has said. I just bought my second issue of this magazine and there is a whole piece that basically outlines the flaws in compound users perspective. An odd way to define the trad focus, this tearing down of another branch of bowhunting. I'd rather have read something about why the authors reasons for choosing trad archery are an important aspect of the activity for him, without the comparisons. Now that would have been informative.

I am old enough to understand that defining what you do by vocally disregarding or disparaging what others do is never productive. It divides us and ultimately serves no one.


Joshua

Alot of good thoughts here.

I want my son to "get into" hunting. Whether it's with a compound or a gun. Of course, I would really like for him to use his trad bow. I try not to wince when a kid wants a compound bow or a friend talks about using his xbow. I don't say too much about either of them cause I don't know too much about them.

I admit, I think I may feel a bit "eliteist" but I try hard not to belittle anyone for their choices especially when it doesn't really matter.

Bona

Right On The Money! That being said I still love my .243 Winchester Longbow and my .50 cal Muzzlecurve. .. Respect is the key. Understanding others is a true art.

... mike ...

I like ethical hunters.

Aside from my frustration with the inclusion of crossbows into bowseason, I strive to NOT judge another hunters choice of gear. I have compound hunting friends, and we don't tease each other about it at all. As close as we have come to a disagreement is that I have politely given my opinion on bolt on compound gear that takes batteries.

I will take an ethical compound hunter over some guy hunting with a longbow just because he looks good in a fedora and plaid everytime.

I'm glad the overall response is a good one, to be honest i was a little concerned that the topic might go downhill, but once again happy with the gang's response. I think a little joking and teasing is all fun and good when done in good spirits, I tease my compound buddies and they tease me about different little things but it's all good natured. As far as my friend goes I think his point was more to the effect that what gear you shoot kind of puts you in a family. We can and do intermingle but Its seems that you spend a lot of time around the guys that shoot as you do which is normal. So more than just his feelings being hurt he was put off by the group (trad guys) who would essentially be his new close family. So even if we run into guys that deserve no respect and/or there even nasty to us, we should still be the better men(and woman) and work on giving the trad community a reputation as being guys of outstanding character. With the very large group of us on tradgang I think its a great place to start building that reputation. As I said before I am thankful some of the best guys I know are already in our group and are very proactive in reaching out to others which has served as a great example to me in how to conduct myself. There's a few different trad guys I know that when they walk into the local archery shops their greeted with big warm welcomes from all because of there great attitude towards those who hunt with other kinds of gear. So at the end of the day how were perceived as a group is important and takes every one of us doing our part to change things as a whole. And my thanks again to all in the gang who are already doing so much good, you guys are great and keep it up.

Yeah, Mudd nailed it.  There really is no reason to knock how anyone hunts as along as it is legal and ethical.

I really don't like the idea of lumping people i.e. 'compound hunters"  "gun hunters" etc.  So many people use multiple methods and generalizing about any group is unfair and counterproductive.

As one more side note I of course think we can disagree with compound,gun, and crossbow guys on things like season's, what should and shouldn't be allowed and all sorts of different things, I do myself. But there is a way to debate and discuss and do things in a manner that is not degrading or making unnecessary enemies or drawing lines in the sand. And actually gaining the resect of those people will ultimately give us more pull when it comes to those discussions.

I was brought to believe that your business stopped with the end of your nose... and the other fellow's started with the tip of his nose...

I don't really care how someone hunts or even if they hunt, that is their business; just don't tell me how I have to hunt or not hunt...

Same thing goes for bows, I could care less what bow you shoot or don't shoot, just don't tell me what I have to use..

Folks need to learn that it ain't none of your business until it hits you in the nose...

I couldn't agree more with you Boone, only a couple things I would add to this discussion.

I love to hunt, period. Even though I'm going full out traditional this year, I spent 26+ years in the woods with a wheel bow in my hands and wouldn't trade a minute of it for anything.
My switch to all traditonal was just a personal choice and I don't look down upon anyone for what weapon they choose as long as it's legal.

I also love my guns and I'll never give them up and I'll never sit out a part of the season because there's "too many guns" in the woods. Even though I would much rather bow hunt than anything else.

Bottom line is we are all Hunters with the exception of some and they know who they are so we won't include them in this reply. But the guys who care about the wildlife, our sport, and conserving it for future generations should all be on the same page. I've even taken up for some shotgunners in a few posts on TG where somebody was bashing a group of shotgunners who were having a deer drive for screwing up his bow hunt. That's not right, I know it sucks but those guys have every right to persue their hunting season (as long as it's legal) just like us bow hunters do ours. We are all in this together and need to stick together or the antis win.

You should copy this link and send it to your friend, I'm sure he would be surprised at how most of us really feel about this topic.
Tell him not to let a couple of a-holes ruin his opinion of traditional archers because we all aren't like the group he ran into.

"We should all hang together or we will surely hang seperately." unknown

I agree with Boone. Most my good hunting friends choose to shoot compound. I will never think for a minute I am a better hunter than any of them just because my weapon is different. Any one of them I promise you are as good a hunter as I or any of us. It is very true there are bad apples in all groups but us holding ourselves to a "Higher Standard" as Boone says is what I think TradGang is all about and a big reason I hang out with yall.

Great topic Boone!  I get quite upset when I hear one group "bashing" another group about their hunting styles.  I've considered myself a trad hunter for many years, but last fall after some shoulder issues I used my twenty-five year old compound to shoot a dandy 10 pt. and doe.  Did I feel remorse in using a compound...no way!  I'm a hunter, and even though I prefer my Bryan Holley Spirit longbow, I was tickled pink to be able to harvest a couple of nice deer.  My best hunting buddy (not counting my son Jay) strictly uses a compound and is one of the most ethical people I know.  It's truly a joy to help him track his deer, as he also helps me.  Share your time with good hunters and always encourage them to do their best and have fun.  That's what it's all about!

Bernie Bjorklund

NC Iowa/SW Wisconsin

Well said, Boone.  Alienating others is not the way to make sure our sport continues to grow.  I used to shoot compound and now shoot traditional and yes I occasionally rib my compound shooting friends but they realize it's all in fun (besides they give as good as they get).  In my opinion, if it's legal to hunt with-use it.  As long as your hunting, or at least pro-hunting, you should be treated like a brother or sister.  TRW

Well spoken Boone.

I hate it when they get snobby with me, cause my bow's "slow" . . . the guys around here seem to have the exact opposite mentality here . . . the compound guys tease us, until they see me plop 5 arrows in a pie plate at 55 yards . . . then they generally shut up.

I have never had anyone shooting a compound give me grief. The last compound shooter that commented said to his son "That man is shooting a real bow." I am always happy to let anyone interested shoot my bow and they usually take me up on the offer. As far as pro shops are concerned I only deal with one and he is as happy to see me as his compound guys. Maybe I am just lucky.

The only place I see this problem is on these internet sites.  I don't see these problems in the real world because I'm not hanging around with people who must feel superior.

Feeling superior is not related to what bow you shoot, or what the size of your parachute is.  Feeling superior is a human condition which transcends which group you belong to and is more a function of group psychology in general.

What mud said . And what alot of guys said. If Im not shooting my sticks Im shooting one of my varmint rifles. Was in a sport shop one time and this guy was putting sown hunting with rifles ect. He said that theres no sport in hitting somthing at 400 yards . I ask him if he ever hit any thing with a rifle at 400 yards . He never  been hunting just shot his bow at targets. We are all hunters and it all takes practice. And we can't walk on water.

i see that all time, beind still a compound guy and traditional both. i even see it on this site often.... i compare it to flyfisherman and spin fisherman. being a hardcore flyfisherman i have since turned my back on flyfishing since all they fly guys look down there nose at spin fisherman.. so now i strickly spin/bait fish. i have see it countless times at shoots as well. but i have also seen compound guys do the same, esp to female trad archers... we are all in the same game. our equipment choice should make no dif...

I know what u r say ing agree..  very good post.

btw  I hate the word traditional  or whatever.......I'm a bowhunter..thats all..i hunt with a bow...not a compound, not a recurve or longbow....just a bow.

as a matter of fact none knows i hunt with a recurve..i mean obviosly u guys do and the guys i hunt with, but in conversation or at the check station  i dont say anything about my weapon...its bow season and i killed it with a bow...thats it.

Both my sons hunt with compounds and I have no problem at all with what someone else uses. My younger son loves to shoot both his longbow and recurve but doesn't feel confident enough shooting at game with them yet.
GLENN

Boone, Very well said.  :campfire:  Let us all set and enjoy life as it was ment to be. God Bless, Trap

Well said Boone.  I was walking out of a public hunting area in Oklahoma 1995 with my compound and met a guy carrying a Dan Quillan recurve.  It was a Patriot I think.  I had shot recurves with my grandfather when I was a kid but had not thought of hunting with one.  I liked the look of the bow and asked if I could see it.  He handed it to me and I looked it over and drew it back.  THe guy was really nice and didn't have any kind of elitist attitude.  Shortly thereafter I ordered my first traditional bow.  A Bob Lee recurve.  Have been hunting with traditional bows since.  This brief interaction made a lifelong impact on me and I try to remember that when I meet up with others that hunt with different equipment.

"but has been put off by several different trad guys over the years that look down on him or treat him like a lesser person because of the fact that he shoots a compound"

The ironic part is, I bet he looks down on those who choose to shoot crossbows (and he shoots a compound)

I have to admit that I am guilty of ribbing my buddies about hunting with modern equipment but that's all it is, just kidding around.  

I'm not defending talking down to anyone because of the gear they use but it does go both ways.  I have personally caught the looks and the snide remarks about using trad gear and taking animals that some certain hunters with modern gear wouldn't have taken.  Most memorable was my first ever trad kill which was a button buck that I took from the ground with a shot of a whopping 8 feet.  When I left the tagging station the other guys that were there made me feel about an inch tall about what in my mind was probably the proudest hunting moment I'd had up to that point.  I would post the remarks they made but they were both brutal and vulgar.

My point is anyone can be ignorant no matter what they hunt with.

I hunt with a core group of guys that all shoot compounds.  I'm the lone traditional archer.  Needless to say we never give each other unnecessary 'crap' about what weapon we choose.  

Overall, I'm just grateful that I have the necessary health to get out there and bowhunt.  I know my friends feel the same.  

Having 'sights' or any other advantages doesn't guarantee anything.  One still needs to get close to the animals.  This is where the real skill lies.  Bowhunting is still challenging, especially when one decides to do it ethically.

QuoteOriginally posted by Boone the Hunter:
  My main point for writing this is I think we in the traditional archery world need to reach out to compound and gun hunters, be friendly and there friend to develop in them the desire to take up the traditional way of hunting instead of driving a wedge inbetween us.      

I have been reading this thread with much interest over these few days and while  I think I understand the general point that is being conveyed I could not disagree more with the "main point" quoted above.

Others have said it as well but it is not my responsibility to reach out to compound shooters & gun hunters and help them "take up the traditional way of hunting."

In every aspect of my life I place a priority on treating people with respect, dignity, and in general treating them the way I would like to be treated.

If by conducting myself in such a way prompts a question from someone else regarding some aspect of my life (including how I hunt) I am more than happy to answer any questions, help them get started, and encourage them along the way.

The notion that somehow everyone needs to become a traditional bowhunter (just like me) is wrong in my opinion and does not ring true in my life. The whole if you don't do "it" like I do then you are wrong makes absolutly no sense to me.  

If someone wants to gun / compound hunt then God bless them and I won't ever tease / joke around / belittle / put them down / poke fun at etc. in any way. They are free (just like I am) to pursue hunting in the way the see fit.

I will say that on more than one occasion I have had other hunters question / put down my chosen method of hunting. I only hunt with traditional great but that is my choice and no one elses. I don't have an elitist bone in my body but after all these years I have made a choice that works for me.

If all it takes to discourage someone from trying something is how some small sampling of people who participate in that activity act then maybe they didn't really want to try in the first place.

Why other people feel the need to bring others over to their side of the fence is beyond me. I am perfectly a-okay being in the very small minority. I am consistent in that I don't tell anyone else how to run their life and I don't want anyone telling me how to run mine.

car315 We disagree in a couple area's with each other which is fine but I would like to convay my thoughts on yours. I have no desire to force anybody to go down any path they don't want to or tell anyone how to run their life, but do think there's a real benifit to the whole reaching out part. As an example I have several freinds that I have gotten into trad archery that weren't hunters or were compound guys and I didn't force anything on them but my invitations to try it out such as lending bows and helping to get set up were what brought them into it, everyone that has always goes man! this awesome and are hooked. Some say it was okay and move on. But I now have a group of family and friends to share with that love it as much as I do and their all out telling others about it and all of a sudden you have made an impact on a lot of people. Was that my responsibility? maybe not, but I'm sure glad I did it. I love that I found trad and want to share and I think there are a lot of others that would like to try it out as well but are maybe a little intimidated. A warm group of guys that are always looking to share there sport will create a great atmosphere to welcome in those that are interested which  is my point.
   I also look back to guys like Fred Bear and Howard Hill that in there day were the smallest minority around with bowhunting but lived there whole lives reaching out, encouraging to try and promoting their sport, and now we have modern day bow hunting as a result. I look at a lot of hunting and hunters today that seem to be bored with the run out and kill it style of hunting that have no Idea what there missing out on as far as getting back into real woodsmanship and a love for the outdoors. So I for one am going to make it a pursuit of mine to show such things to those I come into contact with.
   I think the leave everything alone and see what happens approach will leave a lot of people out there missing out on something great were all it would've taken is somebody going out of there way a bit to share, I'm certainly not saying to force anything. I for one would like to see traditional archery grow in size and popularity because its awesome and would get a lot of people reconnected with the real outdoors. That could only be a good thing these days were more people hunt deer on there phones than in the woods.

I hunt with two compound shooters (my dad and uncle) and I shoot at a club with 20 compound shooters and one guy who shoots traditional as well as compound. For the most part people are pretty good, but there's a bit of a gulf there - some of them no doubt question the effectiveness of my choice of bow. And I can't help but bite my tongue sometimes at what I see on the range - like adjusting a beginner's sights for the fifteenth time to try and make him more accurate, when he's got some serious form issues.

I've never made a snide comment to people, and I've received a few playful jabs (nothing an adult can't handle). When people ask about my bow, I encourage them to try a shot with it. Most of the guys immediately put their hands up and go "no, it's ok, I don't know how to shoot fingers, don't want to wreck your arrows, etc.". The ones who do shoot it usually remark on the lack of letoff and hand me the bow back. One guy went so far as to pick up a used recurve and try it out for a week or so. He shot poorly (as everyone does when picking up a recurve or longbow for hte first time) and with everyone else watching, I think he was embarassed. He ended up leaving the recurve at home because of it. I was a little saddened that he'd given it up, but he'd given it a shot.

In short, I try my best not to be snobby or negative (can't say I'm perfect, but I catch myself), and the guys I shoot with are fun and respectful.

What seems to draw the line with me is the difference between the guys who get out and shoot, practice and put some effort into it, regardless of their tool of choice, and the ones who dust off their rifle/crossbow/compound a month before deer season for the once-a-year practice session. If you're out shooting a compound with devotion, discipline and a respect for the animals you hunt, you can shoot with me anytime. Who knows, maybe we can learn something from each other.

I recently went shooting with a guy who was shooting a compound, on a range that was obviously designed with compound shooters in mind; lots of 60 yard shots, some up to 80. He was shooting them and consistently hitting at those ranges, while I would take an occasional shot at maybe 50 yards, but then go up to 'my' range and shoot (usually around 20 yards). We had a fun time, me in my zone and him in his. I offered to let him shoot my bow, as he loved the look of it, but he declined, saying that he would not be able to hit the bales at 20 yards with it, let alone the target. He commented that trad guys begin their hunt when his might be ending, and that he might like to try a stickbow sometime. There was never any comments between us that would be derogatory; his method and mine were just different. I wouldn't be surprised that some day he will try a traditional bow, but if he doesn't, it is none of my business.
I regularly hunt with two compound guys, and I take as much game as they do. None of us are elitist about our chosen methods, and we have a great time. I would much rather hang out with some compound/rifle guys than a bunch of idiots from PETA.

I have a friend, who shoots a compound.  Last year, he bought a recurve, and has brought it to hunting camp regularly.  He practices with us using his recurve, and is getting pretty darned good at it.
He still hunts with his compound, and says that he doesn't feel competent hunting with his recurve yet.
Good for him, and I really don't care what he uses to hunt with, he hunts with us,(traditional shooters), helps with the animals and camp chores, just like he was shooting a traditional bow.  He is an archery hunter, and a friend, as far as I am concerned he could use a spear if that is what he feels confident with.
Thanks to all of you for your input on this matter, it makes for good reading, and re-enforces the reason I come here.
Thanks

I find that those that ridicule others for their legal huning methods or equipment are usually dealing with some insecurities of their own.

Not always but often.

More about our hunting brothers. I have some friends that can't shoot their compounds as well as I can shoot my stick bows as they never practice. On the other hand I have a few that can stack arrows inside a softball at 50-60 yards and that isn't easy even with a compound. Those guys shoot a lot and have mastered their choice of equipment and I think that deserves respect.

As much as I dislike gun season, the guy that can consistently shoots his leadslinger well at long ranges deserves respect for going above and beyond in the attempt to master his equipment in the effort of making a quick, clean, human kill.

If I master the atalatl and start killing deer with it should I discredit traditional archers? To each his own.

I think the biggest dividers of the sport is not the "traditional elitists" or compound shooters, it's the marketing departments of the manufacturers & vendors.

Their basic pitch, after all, is "our product is new, better, different and therefore superior". This is how you end up with "traditional only" or "Team Realtree" decals on trucks, etc. Though bowhunting is a solitary sport, people want to identify with groups, and the industry caters to that.

My best buddy shoots a compound and another friend and cousin shoot cross bows. I could care less. I make bows and love trad archery but the less I say about anothers style the better.
I shoot in a blended league in the spring and a All trad league in the winter and enjoy both equally.

I understand both sides of the fence since I shoot traditional Left handed and Wheelies right handed.  I just love bows and bowhunting.

This is without a doubt one of the best discussions I have read on here in months. Thanks for posting your thoughts Daniel. I been hunting with stickbows only since the late 1980's. funny thing is, i been thinking of getting a wheel bow as of late. It's all good. Good hunting and shooting to all. Don Batten

Some really good thoughts.

One thing we need to keep in mind is the "and then what" so many people forget to ask.

Any time trad bowhunters argue with modern bowhunters over equipment, sooner or later it devolves into "wounding loss" and we all lose.

The old "I saw a deer walking around with an arrow sticking out of it" remark. I always reply that unfortunately there is a risk of wounding an animal no matter what weapon you choose to hunt with. That is why traditional hunters are extra careful by getting into the 20yd range before committing to taking a shot.
Pat discussions (not arguments) should be fact based. It anyone wants to discuss wounding numbers for each weapon category they better bring some evidence and facts.

Boone,
I agree!!!!

Good job!  :clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:

I'll be the only guy in elk camp not using either a compound or muzzleloader but we'll all have fun and there will be some good natured teasing.

A few years ago I went and was the last one to arrive in camp. I'll never forget - the first comment one of the archers (who I'd never met before) made when I pulled my takedown long bow out of the case and put it together in front of them was "Man, and I thought I was at a disadvantage"...I thought that was funny, especially with the look on his face and how sincere he was.

Well I was practicing shortly there after (the season came in the next day), shooting at water bottles, and as we get a lot - there was a natural curiousity. I had the bottle at about 25 yards and was hitting it some & missing it some.

Well my buddy comes out with his compound, borrows a zwickey head and screws it on his arrow - then drills the bottle at about 35 yards on his first shot. With a smug grin he said "do that bud".....

So I grabbed the bottle, moved it back to about 20 yards and plopped my big rear on the ground leaning against a tree. I then proceeded to drill it from a sitting position. Of course I looked up at him and said --- "do that bud..."!!! We still laugh about that today.

He immediately got up, went over to the cooler and brought me a cold Coor's. With a big grin on his face he said - you know, I had one of those bows when I was a kid. Might have to dig it out!!

Different strokes for different folks. All of our tools serve a purpose and I see no reason or need for an elitist attitude.

I go on a hunt every year with a bunch of fellow Firefighters (25-30) we chase Hogs and Javys in S.Tejas.. I am the only totally Trad guy there, another guy swaps between the two. If any of you know Firefighters then you know our Brotherhood, Jokes and Agitation are a large part of it.( Crawling into a sleeping bag only to find a Javelina Piglet in there too)  So, you can imagine the Crap I put up with  :)  However,  I give as good as I get, and at the end of the day, we are all just Hunters. Gun or Bow , Trad or Compound, as long as we respect our Game and our fellow hunting Brotheren, then we have furthered our sport and our love of the outdoors. I'm  just not sure about those Crossbow Guys, is it a Gun or a Bow ? A Gunbow?  :)  just kidding it's the dang Fireman in me coming out again. Tu Compadre de Tejas, Sutty

Well, there is Howard Hill - "Hunting the Hard Way" and "I do everything the hard way, the Barta way."  So some of it might be compound shooters being defensive - like, what, you too good to shoot a compound?

I just like hunting.  Period.  I like venison, and I like knowing that I made that meat instead of buying it at the store.  I like being out in the woods, sneaking through an animal's home turf, trying to bring home meat.  I've hunted with rifles and handguns and muzzleloaders as well as bows and arrows, and I have every intention of continuing to do so.  

I originally got into bowhunting- and, for that matter, muzzleloaders- to extend my season.  I originally got into traditional archery to become a better archer and hunter.  At the end of the day, I like venison, and as much as I try I can't taste a bit of difference between venison killed with pointy sticks, lead pellets, or pickup trucks.

In my perspective, rifle hunting is very different than bowhunting, and hunting with a recurve is just a different experience than hunting with a compound.  I don't consider one experience superior or inferior to any other.  I don't consider myself to be a poorer hunter, or, for that matter, a lesser human being because I'm as likely to walk into the woods with handloaded ammunition as I am with a quiver full of arrows.  I'll hunt with anyone willing to follow a blood trail.

I shoot a longbow and a recurve, not because of a commitment to somebody's lofty tradition, but simply because I like 'em!

QuoteOriginally posted by Medley:
I think everybody worries about everybody else way too much, in all areas of life.

nuf said

where i have problems with modern archery equipment is the "Get the meat at any cost" type hunters that aren't really hunters at all. You typically find these so called hunters driving the skid roads in their truck or riding around on their ATV's with a fire arm. This was one of the biggest reasons i became an archery hunter in the first place. i got tired of spending two hours trying to work my way closer to a group of deer or an elk heard, only to have one of these "road hunters" zipping bullets over my head at the very animals I'm stalking.

i understand that most of the guys here taking time to post on these forums are all hunters. but there are a lot of guys out there that dust off their rifles every fall and go hunting, that are not hunters at all.

my point is that modern archery equipment in just the last 5 years alone has gotten to the point where these closet dust rifle hunters, are now driving the roads in archery season flinging arrows cross canyon at 100 yards......

i started into traditional archery for the same reason i sold my rifle and went to archery hunting with a compound bow.

I cannot help feel animosity and down right disgust for guys flinging arrows 80-100 yards at game animals.... period..... it's down right irresponsible shooting those distances with an arrow, even if you practice daily and can group your arrow consistently at those long distances...... the animals move before the arrow arrives even with arrows traveling over 300 FPS.... I've seen it happen with my own eyes too many times.....

i don't bad mouth compound bow hunters, but i detest people who buy hunting tags and go hunting every fall that are not hunters at all, and there are a LOT of them out there..... i see more of these bozo's  with compound bows in my hunting areas every year, and i just can't feel all warm and fuzzy about handing them my bow after they just emptied their quivers over my head from a skid road above me.....

i blame the modern technology for making it too easy to kill animals at long distances with a compound bow for bring out the bozo's, and promoting long distance shooting..... a hunter will always respect his quarry. You just don't see too many Traditional bow hunters that are not hunters at heart......

Hunting is Hunting it's just your ethics that matter,If you don't care about the animal your hunting then you shouldn't be in the woods.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:


I cannot help feel animosity and down right disgust for guys flinging arrows 80-100 yards at game animals.... period..... it's down right irresponsible shooting those distances with an arrow, even if you practice daily and can group your arrow consistently at those long distances...... the animals move before the arrow arrives even with arrows traveling over 300 FPS.... I've seen it happen with my own eyes too many times.....

I have to take issue with you on this one Kirk.  It doesn't matter  if its's 80 yards or 8 yards.  If you can't consistently make the shot, the distance or equipmnet is irrelevant. There are people that I would feel more comfortable with taking 80 yard shots on game with a compound than others taking 8 yard shots on game with their longbow.  An afternoon at any trad shoot will illustrate this clearly.

Equipment choices don't make you a "hunter."  Whatever equipment you choose, knowing it's (and your) limitations, and more importantly staying within them, is what makes you a "hunter."

The point he was making is not that they can make the shot,
its that the animal can move while the arrow is in flight since it takes so long to get there.

In other words its unethical since there is a much greater chance at long distance that the shot will become a wound even if the archer is able to put his arrow in a tight group.

I agree with this opinion on long shots and like it or not compound tackle tends to encourage archers to try making them too often.

QuoteOriginally posted by jhg:
I agree with this opinion on long shots and like it or not compound tackle tends to encourage archers to try making them too often.

I agree with your opinion on long shots but ultimately, shot choice is a decision that the hunter makes, not the equipment.  It's like saying that handguns "encourage" crime.  Total bunk in my opinion.  A person that is inclined to take marginal shots with a compound is a person who is inclined to take marginal shots with a longbow.  A person who is inclined to only take high percentage shots with a longbow is a person who is inclined to take high percentage shots with a muzzleloader.  Personal ethics and choices define a "hunter" not equipment choices.

Modern compounds are not considered bows in my opinion. They're a mechanical shooting device. Nothing "bends" anymore.The idea to invent the compound was the ability to make it easier for hunters to hold a bow at full draw.
The decline to the shooting device started with ridicilous high let-off percentages, mechanical releases, scoped sights and olympic style stabilizers. Archers don't need training wheels. I don't like compound shooters and I don't like to hunt together with them. I am not a fan of modern guns as well, I stay with my flintlock.
I try to sourround myself as much as possible with traditional archers/ traditional black powder shooters. At the local "wheeli bow club" 3D-shoots,I leave the compounders alone and I rather shoot alone. I have no desire to snail shoot with them.I tolerate them, but I don't have to like them or accept them as archers.

QuoteOriginally posted by chopx2:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Medley:
I think everybody worries about everybody else way too much, in all areas of life.

nuf said [/b]

X2

Any of us can shoot or hunt with whatever we want. I hunt longbow w/gun hunters all the time. Not to show them up; but, because I'm lucky & blessed enough to totally dig longbow hunting. For real, guns or other just doesn't do it for me. Pass along my regrets to your friend for the elitist attitudes. Just bet there's a big bunch of us folks here who wouldn't mind what he shot, compound or otherwise.

I hunt for meat and self gratification and a big rack is very gratifying. Since I hunt public land and my kills are few and far between anyway, I figured if I wasn't going to kill much I might as well not kill it with flintlocks and recurves so when I do get lucky it would be much more gratifying.

I don't care what anybody else uses...just the amount of bragging they do when they stack the odds so high in their favor.

The idea that you like or dislike someone based on whether they shoot a "traditional" weapon or a "non traditional" is strange. Aren't there more legitimate standards on which to base your views of other people??

Gotta shoot what makes you happy, life is way too short to get twisted up over what the other guy is shooting. Our common thread is hunting and sharing a tradition that started a long time ago.

I haven't personally noticed this type of behaviour, but I believe it.

Reminds me of how some guys that hunt with a compound make digs at guys that hunt with crossbows...  Don't ban me for saying crossbow!! LOL J/K!

Hunting is hunting.  No matter which weapon you choose to take afield with you.

I'm a rookie trad hunter.  I'm so green, I've yet to even hunt with my new recurve yet!  LOL!

I've been shooting deer with a bow for 20yrs and I finally decided to jump head first into trad archery this year.  I got my recurve in March and have been steady shooting ever since.

It's quite addictive and I enjoy shooting it immensely.  I don't know any long time veteran trad shooters, so I've been slowly reading, shooting, reading, shooting, tweaking my bow, reading some more, and shooting some more.

I've been very pleased with my progression and I believe I have a finely tuned potential killing machine in my hands now.  As long as I don't screw it up......lol!

So far I haven't seen this negative attitude in person this thread is about, but I believe it's out there.

Hunters can be royal pains in the you know what... Over the silliest of things too.

Good luck to all this coming hunting season/seasons with whatever weapon you choose take out there.  Well..since this is Trad Gang, a little more extra special good luck to all of y'all carrying traditional equipment! LOL!  Lord knows I'll need some of that!

Sorry JDunlap,this is legitimate enough for me. If someone uses the same kind of weapon I like to use,these people usually view things pretty close to my own views. In my off-time I like to hang out with likeminded people, not with people I just need to tolerate. I only have to tolerate other peoples choices, but that doesn't mean I have to like other peoples choices or therefore other people calling themselves "archers"....

No problem tecum-tha. I fully understand that friendships are based on common interests. I just never considered shooting a stik bow to be a worldview or character issue.

The hunter and the hunt are far more important than the equipment used -- as long as they are legal. I hunted with recurves from my mid-teens until 21 years old. Then I hunted with compounds for the next 34 years. I returned to recurves last deer season. During most of these years I've also been an avid rimfire squirrel hunter and occassionally kill a doe with a single shot .308. Bowhunting and archery are my passion but I certainly tolerate others and their methods.

I really haven't encountered an equipment elitist in person. HOwever, I've read an occassional post from a few who sound like they might be. I've also read columnists who are quick to point out they hunt "traditional" (whatever that means)which they seem to think automatically raises their credibility.

I hunt with my son and my best friend. Both of them hunt more with compounds than recurves.

Hunting is such an individual pursuit. For some it is purely the hunt. For others it is the beast or the food. Some get off on the equipment and gear. For most though it is a combination. It matters to me first what I hunt, then how I hunt and the decisions I make, next what kind of equipment I use, and finally who I'm hunting with (although usually I bowhunt alone).

I spend a lot of time on a bowhunting forum in my state ... I'm one of the few recurve shooters. Talking with compounders is very difficult, they all want to shoot 350 gr total weight, mechanical heads the majority and 300 fps.

I seem to be the guy always going against the grain as far as broadhead choice, and I argue KE all the time.

Its an Arkansas forum, so not so much anti-crossbow ideologies as many states have to battle.

I once heard that it takes 10 positve remarks to outweigh 1 negative remark in our subconsience so we should all watch what is said in person or on the 'net even as a joke.  My best friend shoots a compound and is as good a hunter as anyone and I wouldn't miss the opportunity to share a hunt with him.  On our last trip to Idaho elk hunting he got an elk early in the week and spent the rest of his time helping me scout and helping to haul out my elk on his back (at 74 he can run rings around me!).  In my estimate, there are some compounders who take long shots and use  broadheads which are way too small but there are also some traditional hunters who can't hit the broad side of a barn at 15 yards and use dull broadheads.  Most of us choose to hunt with those who are like minded in our ethics and how enjoyable they make the hunt. I will continue to choose whom I hunt with based on my standards but will not make that choice based on whether they shoot with a tradional or compound bow. Just saying   :campfire:  

Cheers

Call me nilley willey, I hunt with a compound, longbow and recurve. Just jump back and forth and having fun. After many years of "Killing" it just isn't that important anymore, just love to sit in the woods with my bow or even my gun. Heck I even have friends I hunt with using crossbows.

I must be weird I think excaliber recurve xbows are cool as all get out and plan on getting one when I have the funds. I shoot my recurve more than anything else but I still enjoy my compound as well. I don't even care if they allow xbows in the archery season, there is enough game to go around, and I am a firm believer in it's the hunter not the bow that brings home the game.

I think we need to worry more about anti hunters than people that hunt, no matter what they are hunting with. Chris

All true, Gang and I try.

I've helped SEVERAL people set up compounds yet fruitlessly attempt to "nudge" them at least towards a decent broadhead, if nothing else.

I've tracked deer for wheelie shooters/guns shooters alike.

That said.........I DO hope a similar thread is on THEIR sites.

More times than I can count......Ive been called every insulting name you can come up with and "educated" by those "better than I am" BECAUSE (and maybe if they new me it would be true but they didnt *grin*) I hunted with trad equipment.

Running a deer butchering shop for some 15 years, I was introduced to the best and the worst of both bunches of hunters. (or how many bunches there are of them?)

More times than I can count I've been "lectured" about "having more respect for game animals than to hunt with such $hit". Now....Im a SLOW man to rile but that will trip my trigger.....HARD!

Years back I was shooting my Asbell Bighorn and BW MAII at a local range trying out some new arrows I made.

Puffing his chest out a "gentleman" came up and asked "You dont HUNT with those bows......DO YOU?!!"

"Uh...of course" I replied.

For 15 minutes I was lectured on KE, "humane" equipment, respect for game animals, "decent speed" and "gotta have quarter inch groups or stay home".

When two others joined in I think the owner of the shop and LONG time friend saw the veins in my neck starting to throb.

He came over and calmly informed the gentleman that "this guy has taken second place in our indoor PAA fun/rounds three years running...WITH that 62lb recurve and wood arrows shooting against ALL bow types WITH sights AND......I know this for fact.....has taken more deer with his bows than all of you put together adding ALL your choices of weapons".

The reply?

"Ok...so he's an idiot that can shoot.........he's still an idiot"

At that point.....my rubicon had been crossed....so to speak.

All three left when I was done, furious and yelling insults.

From that day to this one.......I dont say squat around others till I feel them out a bit nor do I shoot at public ranges. Isnt worth it to me anymore.

When a local guy is interested in trad, many call me or my buddy to help out, and we always do.

Worse part of all of this, IMHO, is the "two years experienced" shooter, using all his gadgets somehow gets the idea he is the ONLY one capable of such groups and sets upon new hunters with the attitude that "it's MY way or you too are an idiot" and "he read where" or " Professional hunter Joe Blow says" etc etc......is gospel and NO other way .."works".

Stacking arrows in a 2 inch circle time after time just makes for "proof" to new shooters, I'm afraid and it's only after a few years of shooting "state of the art" equipment that some/many (bet some are reading this now) "figure out" that ..........

wait for it

Something is MISSING!

Sorry to be the Devil's Advocate guys. Just my 2 cents.

A great post, and greater advice but IMHO.......THAT shoe is being worn by "the other foot" so to speak.

God Bless
Slow

QuoteOriginally posted by BradLantz:
...Talking with compounders is very difficult, they all want to shoot 350 gr total weight, mechanical heads the majority and 300 fps.

I seem to be the guy always going against the grain as far as broadhead choice, and I argue KE all the time...

Same here to some extent.

I hunt with three guys who all carry compounds and two of them are in the mechanical BH camp. But don't worry about it. Its their choice. I do find it interesting the explanation I was given for a mechanical head was they were getting poor flight using Broadheads when the same arrow flew great with field points. I mentioned maybe they ought to give up a little fps and add some fletching. They acted like they'd been gut shot, to take a quote from Del-Q!

But these are good guys. They hunt with tackle that may differ from ours but they are hunting with bows, even if those bows are actually contraptions (my definition).

I think OUR job is to lead by example. Show them how we are FUN to be around. They have a right to hunt in the way they choose to hunt and with what gear.

Its not our place to tell them its wrong. We can only demonstrate another way by example.

Joshua

IMO the biggest disservice done to bowhunters and the game they hunt, regardless of the bows shot, is the crap broadheads that are pushed now days. IMO if it don't cut on contact, and I can't resharpen it myself with a file and a stone, it ain't a broadhead. If you can't get good flight, learn how to tune your set up or get rid of the crap bow, again, regardless of the bow in question. Chris

Joshua - yes, its their choice, however to my knowledge in Arkansas, its legal to hunt with dull rusty broadheads, mismatched arrows and no practice or ability to hit what you're shooting for.

Doesn't make it good choices does it?

I 100% believe is mechanical heads were banned, fewer deer would be wounded/lost.


If you think about it, few things about the hunt change (whether you're using a crossbow/compound/recurve/longbow/selfbow) until its ready and time to shoot.

Then a lot changes, but for the most part, as bowhunters we got to get 20-25 yards from the animals.

QuoteOriginally posted by JamesV:
Call me nilley willey, I hunt with a compound, longbow and recurve. Just jump back and forth and having fun. After many years of "Killing" it just isn't that important anymore, just love to sit in the woods with my bow or even my gun. Heck I even have friends I hunt with using crossbows.

I don't think you're nilley willey.  I just obtained a recurve and plan on hunting with it quite a bit from here on out.  But....I'm not going to hunt with strictly a recurve or trad equipment forever.

I too enjoy hunting with multiple weapons.  I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody when I'm out hunting.  I hunt for me period.

I shot my first deer with a compound.  My dad, uncles, and granddad thought I was nuts wanting to hunt with a bow.  I was 13yrs old.  Soon after my first deer hit the ground, my dad went and got a bow and has been bowhunting with me ever since.  Now I'm trying to get him into trad, but I think I'm going to have to kill something with it to pursuade him.  Just like I had to do with a compound..LOL!

Slobowke, you have patience. Admired. Elitist attitude sucks! That is, elitists know more about what is positively Gospel than you'll ever know, enough to make your decisions for you! At which time you should be grateful. BS!! Try careful to be good traditional archery stewards not to return the favor. Where else have I seen this?

QuoteOriginally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:


I cannot help feel animosity and down right disgust for guys flinging arrows 80-100 yards at game animals.... period..... it's down right irresponsible shooting those distances with an arrow, even if you practice daily and can group your arrow consistently at those long distances...... the animals move before the arrow arrives even with arrows traveling over 300 FPS.... I've seen it happen with my own eyes too many times.....

I have to take issue with you on this one Kirk.  It doesn't matter  if its's 80 yards or 8 yards.  If you can't consistently make the shot, the distance or equipmnet is irrelevant. There are people that I would feel more comfortable with taking 80 yard shots on game with a compound than others taking 8 yard shots on game with their longbow.  An afternoon at any trad shoot will illustrate this clearly.

Equipment choices don't make you a "hunter."  Whatever equipment you choose, knowing it's (and your) limitations, and more importantly staying within them, is what makes you a "hunter." [/b]

It does matter if it's 8 yards or 80 yards... and it's down right irresponsible in my opinion taking the 80-100 yard shots even if you are an excellent shot....

The point i was making is the the time it takes the arrow to get to the animal even using a bow that shoots 300 FPS is over a full second at that range..... it's the difference between a perfect shot, and a gut shot.... I've watched it happen with my own eyes with a guy that could shoot very well out to 80 yards, and we spent a full day tracking the animal that was gut shot before losing it.... That same guy won't shoot over 40 yards now.

unfortunately these would-be rifle hunters using these modern arrow casting machines is that they don't even care.... the guys I'm talking about aren't archers at all... they purchase this equipment to get an advantage and hunt during archery season.... that's it.... AND... there are a lot more of those guys out there than most people realize..... it sucks!

In response to the original thread:

Some of the best hunts I ever went on were with hunters who used a different weapon than I.

Last season I was coming out of the woods and saw a guy walking towards the parking area toting a crossbow.

Now I have a deep seeded dislike for those contraptions, I mean DEEP!! If I could snap my fingers, they would disappear minus to those who really need them.  

The realization I did have though, is it wasn't the weapon that defined who this individual is.
 I enjoyed our 20 minute chat and saw this guy has the same passion I do about hunting deer and the same views about how we need to conserve the resource instead of passing laws to allow extermination of the whitetail.

He admited to being a little embarassed about using the x-bow but had no choice due to bad shoulders then showed me the surgery scars. I sorta felt for him because the crossbow is neither viewed as a bow or a gun, he didn't know how to fit in. I was ashamed of my first glance opinion of this guy before we even talked

What it comes down to, is there is a group of like minded individuals that share the same values, passion and intensity that more or less shines through the traditional archery crowd.

 We are not just special because of the tool we choose, it's the example set by the majority of traditionalists to pursue game on the most difficult level, respect the game we hunt, and love everything that surrounds us in the woods.

I fear through the advances in technology, hunters won't be hunters, they will be killers.

I have been fortunate enough to have been influenced by hunters from the "old school" days, when being a bowhunter meant you were a stubborn , crazy S.O.B. sitting out in the worst elements possible. Yet at the same time, old school bowhunters are probably the best example of being conservationist out there.

It's all in the frame of mind.

QuoteOriginally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
I find that those that ridicule others for their legal huning methods or equipment are usually dealing with some insecurities of their own.

Not always but often.

Exactly!

It seems the only time some of these folks stop complaining about modern archery tackle is when they're searching for their arrows in the weeds past whatever target they just missed.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
It does matter if it's 8 yards or 80 yards... and it's down right irresponsible in my opinion taking the 80-100 yard shots even if you are an excellent shot....

First of all Kirk, the amount of people that actually take 80-100 yard shots on game with a compound are about as common as the traditional archers who can shoot 2 inch groups at 20 yards.  We read about them every day, but they just don't very often exist outside of a keyboard.  

Second, the yardage doesn't really matter to the the extent that in either case, a hunter must stay within his range.  A traditional hunter shooting at game at 8 yards is not one bit better than a compound hunter shooting at 80 yards when their effective ranges are 4 and 40.

I shoot what I shoot because its what I like to shoot. I hunted with wheels for many years. Most of my friends still do. I'm sure not gonna let the tool i choose hunting decide for me who my friends are. Some like open ended wrenches, some like box end wrenches. Who cares. The bow is the tool.

What I won't hunt with are law breaking slobs with no respect for the game pursued. I've hunted with some on occasion that showed their true colors right quick, and I won't hunt with 'em again. Now they might be good friends in other areas of my life, but I wont hunt with 'em.

I get ribbed and ripped on by wheelie shooters. SOme in good fun, some is authentic dislike for me because I shoot a longbow. Thats thier issue not mine.

I teach Hunter Safety and bowhunter ed at a youth summer camp. One thing I did when I was Camp director is make sure we have ample supply of longbows, recurves and compounds. We encourage the kids to try them all, and decide for themselves what is the most fun for them. Then we give them as much instruction and coaching as we can over the weekend. I can say many of them really find the trad bow fun( no surprise there). Each year I've given a trrad bow to a kid who really takes a shine to it.

But if I have a kid shooting wheels that needs help, I give it freely. I try to be a good ambassador of the traditional discipline of archery, but whats more, we preach responsibility afield over all else.

I know guys who would love to take up trad archery, but admit  they dont have the time to practice enough to feel comfortable in the woods with one. I would much rather see someone admit that, than do it just to do it without adequate shooting skills. And there are plenty of those in the woods with  any weapon.

A bow is a bow, archery is archery. No different than fishing. SOme use a fly rod, some a spin cast setup, and others prefer to troll.

It's never the hunter I look down upon (My hunting buddy shots a compound), just the equipment  ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
It does matter if it's 8 yards or 80 yards... and it's down right irresponsible in my opinion taking the 80-100 yard shots even if you are an excellent shot....

First of all Kirk, the amount of people that actually take 80-100 yard shots on game with a compound are about as common as the traditional archers who can shoot 2 inch groups at 20 yards.  We read about them every day, but they just don't very often exist outside of a keyboard.

 Second, the yardage doesn't really matter to the the extent that in either case, a hunter must stay within his range.  Second, the yardage doesn't really matter to the the extent that in either case, a hunter must stay within his range.  A traditional hunter shooting at game at 8 yards is not one bit better than a compound hunter shooting at 80 yards when their effective ranges are 4 and 40. [/b]

The point i'm trying to make is that a lot of these guys DON'T have an effective range, much less stick to it.... and even a guy who can shoot 80 yards effectively has no control over the time it takes for the arrow to get to the target... This makes the shot a 40:1 gamble instead of a reasonable chance for success at closer yardages.

i hunted with a compound bow for a lot of years, and the group i hunt with all still use them... but... these guys are hunters at heart. they respect the fact I've decided to take up the stick and string with no problem at all, and i feel no urge to convert them to Traditional archery either. These are great guys i hunt with, and they enjoy shooting my bows, but prefer something more accurate with site pins to hunt with.... i can live with that.

Kirk:

Apparently, you and I have a difference of opinion on what "effective range" means.  To me, effective range depends on a combination of the target, the situation, the equipment, and the archer.  What is effective range on a stationary target is NOT necessarily effective range on a live animal.

Your last paragraph actually proves my point:

"i hunted with a compound bow for a lot of years, and the group i hunt with all still use them... but...  

these guys are hunters at heart.  

they respect the fact I've decided to take up the stick and string with no problem at all, and i feel no urge to convert them to Traditional archery either. These are great guys i hunt with, and they enjoy shooting my bows, but prefer something more accurate with site pins to hunt with.... i can live with that."

When all is said and done, it's not the equipment that makes the hunter.

Jeff and Arwin,thats what it's all about not what you shoot,we all have circumstances that dictate our abilities,it doesn't matter if you have to shoot a croosbow,prefer a compound what matters is that you respect what your hunting,and don't take any unethical shots.