Ok gang, so in the past I have used both methods to sharpen broadheads. My experience has been both are deadly if done correctly but I want to see what experiences others may have had or what your thoughts are.
Personally I have found that I can get a lethal edge faster and somewhat easier with a file. I even built my own block to hold 2 smaller mill bastard files for sharpening many years ago that I still have today.
I have heard, or read that a surgical edge will be sharper and cut better then I have also read that this type of edge will dull faster?
I have accidently cut myself with both edges at different times over the years and while these cuts were minor, there was definately more bleeding caused from the edge created by the file sharepening. I credit this to the somewhat serrated edge created by the file?
So what has your experiences been and if one is better than the other please explain why. Inquiring minds want to know. :bigsmyl:
I prefer the filed edge as the tiny serrations "grab" the blood vessels causing major cuts. Just my opinion as either edge will work fine. Just make sure however you sharpen it that it will shave hair.
Amen bro, i started getting that edge by accident with a Tru Angle file set years ago! I did a rubber band test with it and it passed, so now its all i use! I think its a little more durable when arrows are carried in a bow quiver too, at least in my estimation!
Personally I like a smooth scary sharp edge. Why? Because it kills 'em dead! :thumbsup:
I prefer a smooth polished edge so I sharpen them the same way as a knife. Starting with a razor stone and then a strop with buffing compound.
Lots of comments on this one! (use the search feature...enough info to keep you reading for a while) :readit: But I do wonder why butchers and people who work in a slaughter house use a butchers steel instead of a stone to sharpen and touch-up their knives. :thumbsup:
I had a couple more thoughts. I probably would use a file if I had to do some serious stock removal, like the establishing and edge on a Zwickey. Luckily many modern heads come with very precise bevels from the package. I also disagree on the serrated edge offering an advantage. If a smooth edge pushes off an artery your edge was not sharp.Secondly cut yourself with a ragged edge versus a razor edge. The razor edge will undoubtably shed more blood and be more difficult to stop the flow.
I like a file then a diamond stick , just works for me,,,,,Sam,,,,,
File then ceramic sticks
HONE STEEL.
I'd like to throw in my $.02 if I may.
Good examples and questions so far...about butchers and such.
Thing we may not be considering is that cutting yourself and STARTING to bleed or cutting up dead meat...isn't comparitive to the ultimate objective of a broad head!
What WE'RE trying to do with a broad head is KILL...by extensive and prolonged hemmorage...
We do NOT want the bleeding to stop.
Having said that, ever wonder why SURGEONS use polished edge scapels...blood clots kill patients!
Those tiny "burrs" leave a ragged edge. Ragged edges on vessels and arteries promote clotting by giving the blood plattelets a place to grab a hold and start the clot.
Deer in general have been eating green, leafy vegetables all summer...that are packed with Vitamin K...that enhances clotting!
Researches believe this is an evolutionary (God-incident?)that prepares the animals for the rigor of the rut...so they can heal quickly from injuries during that time of fighting.
We hunt then, too, eh?
Facts won't ever change opinions, but the poster asked. Clean, polished edge cuts take longer to clot up. Science. Not personal opinions.
Don't mean that to sound authoritative, but medical science is what taught me what I share (not a real doctor, just play one on the internet but was a bio major and a Spanish leutinent) :)
Then there is the 2 blade vs. 3 blade debate that never will end... plugged exit holes, fat plugging, arteries stick together (really?) that works with pressure bandages till you MOVE the cut part...then it starts like a "stuck pig" all over again.
Just something I researched and felt led to share.
I'll go now! :) :saywhat:
Doc, thats about the best explanation on filed vs polished I have seen.
I use a file to start and a steel to finish. My edge is very scary, and I can do it sitting on a stump. I suppose a ceramic stick might finish the edge a little smoother.
The only time I have had less than perfect blood trails has been on a few deer I have killed that we feeding almost exclusively on acorns....with very thick fat. I don't think it had anything to do with my edge....but that fat seal up like a McKenzie target sometimes.
I wonder....and I wonder if it matters...does a purely filed edge load itself up with suet in a situation like that?
I sharpen all my broadheads on a KME knife sharpener and then strop them on a piece of leather or a cardboard box. When I'm finished with them they are hair popping sharp. But I do carry a small 8" bastard file in my pack when I'm out in the woods just in case I need to touch one up after shooting it.
That being said, I have read I believe it was Dr. Ashby reporting that a blade sharpened to a smooth polished finish will actually cause a wound to bleed more because the edges of the wound are smooth and makes it harder for blood to co-agulate.Sorry for the spelling.
Many animals have been killed with both smooth polished broadheads and file sharpened broadheads.WHich one is better? IMHO the smooth polished cutting edge.To each is own just as long as the cutting edge is sharp. What degree of D.E.A.D. is better? Dead is dead.
I have used Fred Bear's method, Hill's method, Louis Armbrusters method of pulling the narrow flat of a file, file and steel, file and diamond hone, carbide cutters of various styles and my favorite with a Grizzly file either use the round and smooth narrow edge as a steel or with the file teeth, which do not come to a corner like on a normal four sided file, putting a very fine edge serration on a filed and honed shaving sharp Grizzly broadhead. From our kills on whitetail deer with Grizzlies, single bevel Hills that we make ourselves, Hunterheads and Zwickies I have not seen a clear advantage other than maybe how much edge remains on the head after it has been in the back quiver all day. So long as as the edge is as keen as the sharpening method can get it, they all seem to work. Perhaps one method can work better in one broadhead design than another. My son killed two deer with the 140 grain Hill that I 'completely ruined' with a file twice, using the Hill file method twice. the blood trails were the same twice, a few spatters for twenty yards then huge globs of blood leading to the deer 50 and 70 yards from the hit. I have never once had a broadhead fill up with hair or suet, I have seen a modern 3 blade and a 4 blade load up with hair on pass throughs with compound shooters leave no blood trails at all. Both deer were found days after the hit long distance from the shot. I have not found a 2 blade broadhead that does not work with a shaving sharp edge, I would say if a shaving sharp edge gives you confidence then by all means use a shaving sharp edge.
Bottom line is , sharp is sharp.
Often we can become obsessive in our quest, and look for reasons to justify what we are doing, and why.
I have spent to much money on stones of every size, shape and type. Stones work, and files do too, but a file is faster, cheaper and easier.
For me now it is only a file. They are fast, and will put on an edge that cuts just fine. A short 6 or 8" fine file in my pack is great to toutch up a head in the stand.
At home I use larger files, and made a "V" block with files for the 2 blade heads that works great.
A ceramic stick for a final finish completes the process if I am looking to kill some time, but it is not necessary.
Pete
docnoc,you have shed the light.
I think we all have to find the method that best suits us. I like the file method myself and have never had any problems getting a deadly sharp edge which has always worked for me. A couple of finishing strokes on a steel or diamond stick and they are plenty sharp to me.
A steel's purpose is to get all those tiny burrs going in the same direction. A true steel doesn't remove material from the blade.
I start with a file, time and patients and end with a leather strop and compound. I start with a file, then go to a course stone, smoother stone, wet dry sandpaper glued down 400, 600, 800, 1200 the finish with an old leather belt with black then green compound. This gets them so sharp it is incredible. I shoot abowyer brown bears.
For my straight two blades I use a KME broadhead guide on a set of Japanese water stones to get them surgical sharp. For my Tree Sharks nothing is better than the method outlined by Landshark Launcher Chris Spikes. One step that I added at the end was stropping on the curved surface of an old leather weight lifting belt wrapped around my thigh.
Snuffers I hand file with a set of diamond files and then leather strop.
I use a file with very lite strokes at the end then a few licks on a Diamond stone. Drag back a few times on a piece of leather. VERY sharp. I also use the method described by David that Chris uses on my Simmons.I hunt with chris and can tell you that at anytime he can pull a treeshark from his quiver and shave with it.RC
QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:
I'd like to throw in my $.02 if I may.
Good examples and questions so far...about butchers and such.
Thing we may not be considering is that cutting yourself and STARTING to bleed or cutting up dead meat...isn't comparitive to the ultimate objective of a broad head!
What WE'RE trying to do with a broad head is KILL...by extensive and prolonged hemmorage...
We do NOT want the bleeding to stop.
Having said that, ever wonder why SURGEONS use polished edge scapels...blood clots kill patients!
Those tiny "burrs" leave a ragged edge. Ragged edges on vessels and arteries promote clotting by giving the blood plattelets a place to grab a hold and start the clot.
Deer in general have been eating green, leafy vegetables all summer...that are packed with Vitamin K...that enhances clotting!
Researches believe this is an evolutionary (God-incident?)that prepares the animals for the rigor of the rut...so they can heal quickly from injuries during that time of fighting.
We hunt then, too, eh?
Facts won't ever change opinions, but the poster asked. Clean, polished edge cuts take longer to clot up. Science. Not personal opinions.
Don't mean that to sound authoritative, but medical science is what taught me what I share (not a real doctor, just play one on the internet but was a bio major and a Spanish leutinent) :)
Then there is the 2 blade vs. 3 blade debate that never will end... plugged exit holes, fat plugging, arteries stick together (really?) that works with pressure bandages till you MOVE the cut part...then it starts like a "stuck pig" all over again.
Just something I researched and felt led to share.
I'll go now! :) :saywhat:
Doc, Excellent post Sir :thumbsup:
At the risk of :deadhorse: and only to add my 02.... broadhead sharpness is far more critical in upping our chances of successful game
recovery than it is to the BHDs ability to kill. Our ultimate goal is not just to kill, we need to be able to recover the animals we shoot. Many animals have been killed that never made it into the back of a truck. With that in mind, here's my thoughts on the matter-
The amount of blood left on the ground is primarily influenced by 3 critical factors (although there are other less influential factors too). The big 3 are in order of importance:
1) Shot placement
2) The level of broadhead sharpness
3) The presents or absence of an exit wound
I'm a devout 2 blade shooter but even so, given the choice between shooting an animal with a wicked sharp 3 blade or a pretty sharp 2 blade head, I'll take the wicked sharp 3 blade every time because it's not the broadheads size or blade count that matters most, it's the level of sharpness and how that relates to and influences the internal physiological responses triggered in any animal by any form of cutting of tissue (lacerating wound). (Wow, that even sounds complicated to me). As Doc Nock stated, the science is there to support this argument but lets try and simplify it for a minute. I recently cut the back of my right leg on a pretty dang sharp piece of sheetmetal. Cut is an understatement, opened it up like a zippered pouch is more like it. Haven't had a wound like that in years. Right though skin, fat, and about ¾" deep into the muscle tissue and about 3 inches long. Nasty for sure. Now here's the cool part- It didn't bleed at all. I mean not at all. Less than ¼ teaspoon in the 1 ½ hours it took till it was closed up. Now why is that? Because although the "blade" was plenty sharp enough to cut me it wasn't sharp enough to trigger the massive hemorrhage that we'd expect from this type of wound. Conversely, why does a shaving nick bleed forever? Simple, because the cut of a true razor edge cuts each individual microscopic capillary and blood vessel perfectly cleanly. They may be only microscopic blood vessels but the cut ends are wide open and the blood just flows and flows. A cut from a semi-sharp blade on the other hand tears as much as it cuts. As a result those tiny blood vessels have many loose and ragged ends which are extremely helpful to the body's natural clotting response. The duller the blade is, the rougher the cut will be and even though the rough cut causes far more cellular damage than a surgically sharp blade will, the surgically sharp blade will produce copious amounts of free flowing blood.
In fact, the greater level of cellular damage is the cause of the rapid clotting because the more cellular damage to the tissue the greater the body's clotting response will be. In short, the duller the blade, the greater the cellular damage and therefore the greater the natural clotting response. The sharper the blade the less cellular damage and the less natural clotting response. (translation- the amount of blood on the ground is directly related to the level of BHD sharpness).
Ron
I started bowhunting about 47 years ago.We used files and various drag sharpeners and they killed and left blood trails and sometimes drew blood from us.We had our theories why that was the best edge.the truth is,that was the best we could do and we had no patience for a lot of tinkering with equipment.we wanted to get into the woods.
I've changed my thinking a lot over the years and have become convinced that the honed,polished edge is what I want to use.I learned how to get it from Ron,with the use of his sharpeners and a little perseverance.
I've used blades almost daily for decades and I know that shop knives sharpened with a drag sharpener hurt like H compared to scalpel cuts that sometimes you don't notice till you see blood droplets on the floor.I think this factor alone,can influence the recovery distance.
I've always heard those stories about animals that reacted after the shot like they didn't know they were hit but had never had one of those in all those decades,till last year.Antelope are the most high strung animals I hunt and I made a liver shot and pass through on a doe,using a KME honed 2 blade.The doe made a couple bounds and calmly walked a few yards,laid down,put her head down and never moved again.She had traveled only 35 yds.Unbelievable for an antelope hit like that.The rest of her group didn't even know what happened.that is rare too.I wish I had made a better hit but am very impressed with the outcome and I think the pass through and honed broadhead are the reason.Further field testing will continue in a few weeks.
I should add that the antelope before that went 40 yds.These were my 2 shortest antelope recoveries and my only 2 with the honed,polished edge broadheads.
Thanks Docnoc and Ron for those posts.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/jbrandenburg/GrizzlySharpening014.jpg)
Dang Jim,
I don't even get mine that to look like that!!! :scared:
Ron
My three blades I use a dimaond stone, course then fine. from there I go to a Japanese water stone. 1200 then 4000 grit. finish off with the inside surface of a 12 pack box.
My two blades I use the same series only with a KME.
JimB,
That's one heck off a polished edge. I have been using Ron's knife sharpner for just about a year but have only achieved that kind of polished edge after stropping.
Be grateful to you and Ron if you guys could share some tips and tricks.
Thanks.
Dodger
You know, those polished blades look awesome! If I could get you guys to do that to my BH's and send them back to me, I would really apreciate that. Until then,I will sharpen my broadheads with a file. The secret is to ease off the preasure as you near completion. That effectively reduces the coarsness of the file and thus the sharpened edge. I re-check and sharpen my heads while I wait to test them (sitting in my stand)I can effectively shave with a 3 blade head. I usually get pass throughs, or at least exit hole's (but it must be added that I have never tried to shoot an animal with the least amount of pounds necessary either). When I have properly hit animals with an arrow, I have proper blood trails. Not much blood coming out of gut shots no matter how sharp the head is.
I think that rather than trying to achieve a gloss finish on your razor edges, you could benefit more by using a bigger cut head (gloss finish optional).
That is my .02, Bigjim
File has worked for 50 + years guess I'll keep doing it until it quits working.
Dodger,I did a "how to" called "Sharpening Grizzlys and Other Stuff" which is in the How To Resources section.
Most of the work was in establishing the bevel and straightening out the coarse,not so straight grind of the Grizzly.Most broadheads don't need that work.
The actual sharpening was done using successively finer grits of wet or dry sandpaper laid over a DMT diamond hone and the broadhead in a KME broadhead sharpener.The DMT hone is a 3"x8" steel bar with diamond embedded in one surface.You don't have to have the DMT.You could use glass,steel plate or a piece of Formica counter top.
The sandpapers run 320,400,600,1000,1500,2000 grit.It only takes a few strokes with each grit and goes way faster than it sounds.The KME holds the broadhead at the perfect angle every time so all you have to do is learn not to bear down too hard.I use a progressively lighter touch with each grit.You could stop at whatever grit size you prefer,like say,600 and still have a very precise,sharp edge.It is so quick to go through the grits though and they last quite a while.I tear one sheet of paper into 3 pieces and I can sharpen a couple dozen broadheads without changing papers.Since the KME holds a constant angle,I can whip through the process while watching TV.
The same method could be used on 3 blades,without the KME,by laying the papers on a flat surface and sliding 2 edges at a time,across the paper.
Just curious, has anyone looked into how a rougher cutting edge performs versus a finely honed one as it passes through an animal? In other words, which edge - if any, dulls significantly while passing through hair, hide, ribs, etc. on entry, thus rendering it less effective as it attempts to slice its way through the vitals. I have my own experiences to draw from, but that's hardly conclusive.
Good point Gary! My experience has been that the softer the steel the more the broadhead needs a file/serrate edge, while the harder the steel the more you can get by with a smooth polish.
The softer steel and smooth edge is prone to being "wiped smooth" by bone or even hide if the head is soft enough.
Not so much with harder steel... 50 rockwell +.
The rougher edge on the soft steel is almost impossible to "wipe smooth" when dressed with a serrate edge.
I would say it depends on the head also. I can get a 2 blade like a an Ace or Zwickey sharper with a stone and strop. I now use a file because I shoot a 3 blade Snuffer and can get them sharper that way, I do hit them with some stiff cardboard as a finishing touch. DocNock has it right though, yet if I do my job, my Snuffers make a nice big hole on both sides and I have no problem with bloodtrails! Shawn
Charlie, I use to run an annual two week spring bear camp, and did so for nearly 15 years. During that time I trailed and helped haul out of the bush more bears than I can remember. One thing that always struck me was how dull the "factory sharpened" broadheads were whenever I picked one up after they had slammed through a black bear. The majority of my hunters were shooting compound bows and arrows tipped with replaceable stainless steel blade heads. I don't think it was a question of the heads having been damaged in their quivers, as I saw many guys inserting super sharp "razor blades" before they went hunting. Those heads simply dulled passing through ribs and hide. I checked arrow after arrow and was surprised at out dullen they were - wouldn't cut butter. In contrast, I've shot a lot of animals with carbon steel heads sharpened on files and coarse stones which would still cut you quick after passing through an animal. Like I said, I don't have a lot of data to quote but those experiences give me reason to wonder. Has anyone else noticed this?
I can only get it to shave hair with a file, I watched one of the Trad Gang videos and Charlie Lamb was showing how to do it, worked like a dream - if I could only get the serated edge thing down! (once I do that I feel as though I wrecked it) Previous to this I used stone, Diamnond and Arkansas, they worked well for me but nothing like the file.
JimB, I really appreciate you taking the time to describe your method. The sandpaper sure explains how you got that mirror finish. I have used the same method for knives, though freehand, with a glass table top as a backing but may play with higher grit Japanese water stones in the future.
Having said that Gary's question and Charlie's reply have given me pause for thought.
Regards.
Dodger
Yes, Gary; I have noticed this too. I think you and Mr.Charlie Lamb have "hit" on a very important and very often overlooked factor. How well does a broadhead hold its edge going thru a mudcaked hide,rib bones, etc? Softer steel broadheads aren't gonna hold that polished edge like a harder steel broadhead will. Also the angle of the bevel is going to come into play,too. Too thin, and the first rib it hits it is gonna roll it over. If you look at the newer, "premier" broadheads, check out the Rockwell hardness listed for them. Just like Mr. Lamb stated, ALL of 'em are 50+ and they ADVERTISE this fact.
I would go so far to say that NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF EDGE YOU START WITH, FILED OR POLISHED; THE BROADHEADS WITH THE HARDER STEEL IS GOING TO KEEP THAT EDGE BETTER AFTER IT GOES THRU THE ANIMAL.
Take a Grizzly broadhead and make it a double bevel. Then take a MA-2 double bevel broadhead and sharpen them both the same way. Go shoot them into a foam broadhead target and see which one retains its edge the best.
Clint Eastwood said it best in one of his "Dirty Harry" movies,"A man has got to know his limitations."
That also applies to broadheads. Just my observations based on 30+ years of bowhunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Good point Gary! My experience has been that the softer the steel the more the broadhead needs a file/serrate edge, while the harder the steel the more you can get by with a smooth polish.
The softer steel and smooth edge is prone to being "wiped smooth" by bone or even hide if the head is soft enough.
Not so much with harder steel... 50 rockwell +.
The rougher edge on the soft steel is almost impossible to "wipe smooth" when dressed with a serrate edge.
Good point indeed Charlie and Gary,
We can however greatly increase the cutting edge durability of any steel by altering the bevel geometry. Raising the bevel angle to 25 degrees or higher (per side) will produce a longer lasting, more durable cutting edge, particularly on softer steel blades but it does apply to all blades. Put some shoulders behind that edge no matter what you use to sharpen it. :thumbsup:
Ron
I use my KME to sharpen everything...and a leather strop to polish the edge to a mirror like finish. The Ace BH's I shoot are scarey sharp.
I've run plenty of these broadheads through deer that were still plenty sharp after I pulled them out of the dirt. as sharp as before I shot them...no. But still sharper than what most guys go into the field with.
Either edge type will kill the critter...but you often need blood on the ground to find'em! As such I suscribe to the polished edge theory. For me it is about blood on the ground. A clean cut is going to bleed better than a raged one and for a longer period of time before it begins to clot.
I took about 20 deer with file sharpened magnus heads, very effective.