Several of you have requested a 300 grain version of the VPA "Penetrator" 250 that I reported on in another thread. I came up with a ROUGH drawing based upon the specs sent to me by the guys at VPA. Actual photos should be posted next week. As with the 250, the 300 gr. version has a ferrule that extends to the tip for added strength.
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(http://logsdonstudios.com/penetrator.jpg)
Do you know if they are making these in a lighter weight glue-on heads anytime in there near future?
Even though I just ordered a dozen 250 grain 2 blade heads today, I am ready to order a dozen of these when they are available. They really look good!
Allan
That won't work at all...ha ha.
Seriously, how about specs. such as single or dble bevel,hardness,glue or screw in options, lxW,price,sharp in package,etc.??
Very nice
The Ferrel extending to the front is a MUST for strength and integrity. The VPA heads have that covered and taper from the tip to the back of the head, the best for penetrating heavy bone.
Based on my testing over the last several years on mostly Water Buffalo Id like to see a slightly sharper angle on the Tanto, I had a chance latter this season to shoot a lot of arrows into downed Buffalo with some interesting results, the flatter stile angle Tanto (such as the grizzly) is IMO much more prone to deflection on angled shots. A small sharper Tanto proving equally as strong but much less prone to deflection.
Iv found deflection off ribs on the Big Buffalo to be the most common result in a wound, followed by broadhead failure (most common is the front 3rd of the head failing)
most of you know how much i love 300gr heads, there is no doubt these will be on the front of my big game arrows.
QuoteOriginally posted by amar911:
Even though I just ordered a dozen 250 grain 2 blade heads today, I am ready to order a dozen of these when they are available. They really look good!
Allan
Same here.
VPA will have some pix of the actual heads posted here next week, however I think my drawing is fairly close to representing the 300. I believe it's the same width as the 250, which is 1 1/8" Length somewhat less that 3" yet still very aggressive. Andy, I'll relay your point concerning the angle of the tip.
Gary,are you sure about the length? What I read was 3.1" length and 1 1/8" wide,or has that changed?It also said 1 to 2.75 ratio which fits with that length and width.That is a slightly better ratio than the Grizzly El Grande.That's going to be one mean head.
Hi Jim, that 3.1" post referred to the overall length. I wondered about that myself and followed up with some questions. The distance from the base of the ferrule/shaft to the tip of the "tanto" creates about a 1:2.75" ratio. My drawing reflects the actual ratio pretty accurately. As you observed, it will be a MEAN head. The 250s I tested are tough brutes due to the overall thickness and ferrule support all the way to tip. The 300 has the same advantages.
Someone inquired about lighter glue-ons. Yes, I have heard that they are a possiblity. Concerning the L-W ratio, I don't have the length vs width figures in front of me right now, however if you look at my drawing you can get a good feel for it's profile.
Looking at the drawing you can tell that it's probably less than a 2.75:1 ratio, yet it is obviously a very aggressive profile. One of the advantages of not going longer has to due with maintaining the ferrule support to the tip, which is crucial if you want a head that surpasses most of what's currently available in that regard.
Please excuse the typos . . . worked late into the night.
Andy,
I hope when you were doing the later broadhead testing, like we did when I was there, that you didn't get your fingers cut up. Sorry about that with me! I want to know more about the additional testing you did.
I don't know if you have been getting my messages, but somehow I want to be able to communicate with you better. You need to get some of these VPAs on the end of your arrows and let all of us know what you think of them. I believe both the 300 and the 250 will be close, but on the really big animals like buffalo, I will be using the 300s also. You are saving those spots for Doug and me next year, right? I need more info on dates, etc. I probably will be shooting these VPAs on that hunt!!!
On the point shape, I tend to agree with you that less angle might be better, but some deflection seems to be desirable when hitting those thick ribs. You remember how my ABS Ashby heads were often going straight into the ribs without deflecting and getting stuck in the heavy bone without sufficient penetration. What are your thoughts about that problem?
Take care friend,
Allan
Got it Gary.Thanks.
Gary, I'm still of the opinion that the tanto on the lighter heads is too blunt. Perhaps VPA could look into that as well as on the 300's..
That will be devastating. I wish they could make some 1.5 in wide like the big Jim big 3. I think the extra width Would make this big of a head even more brutal. My philosophy is the bigger the better. What would you rather be stabbed with. A sharp letter opener or a Rambo knife.
They look to be TOUGH.
thanks so much for the update Gary. i will have to try these. like dave, i believe vpa could steal the 2 blade market with a wider head. the 1 1/8 seems to be a bit small for such a beefy design. that is the only negative i can see. the design is killer
As far as a wider head....I believe that like the 3 blade heads(after talking to Jeff from VPA, "boomerang" here), a wider head would have to be significantly more expensive because of the size of the "stock" steel VPA would have to start with.
At least it's something like that, I'm sure Jeff or Ray can explain it way better.
As most know I'm a die hard 3 blade guy. But since my son will be hunting next fall for the first time at 12yrs. old, and will be needing all the penetration help he can get with his short draw....these 2 blade Penetrators will be just the ticket!
Just saw the thread, looks like a great head. I ordered some of the 250's for myself and some of each of the lighter heads for my wife and daughters to try. The 300 grain heads would be great. I wonder if a single bevel will be an option.
From What iv heard in time there will possibly be Glue on's.
As for the Wider width Ray addressed it and it would require a larger stock size of steel, which would increase the Cost of the finished product.
There is no doubt these will be on the front of my Buff arrow's Allan.
Like i showed you with the 300gr 3 blade VPA's the Strength and Overall Quality in Unmatched, and you'r getting all that for a great price IMO There are heads out there as you well know that run at 3 to 4 times the cost and will still not match these.
As for the Deflection upon impact it was/is the biggest cause of failure. In my opinion you do not want any at all!! You want the tip to bite and penetrate exactly and immediately were it first contacts the rib. Any skid or deflection and you'v just lost Huge amounts of energy. You can not hope for it to skid and find a gap or thinner section of rib, for the buff to pretty much are going to have to go through rib, so you need a set-up and braodhead like this VPA that is capable of just that.
Andy, I just gave my local meat processor a call - who happens to also be my uncle, and requested a scapula and set of ribs from the next beef he processes. Many times the shoulder bone is lost in the process of cutting up roasts, however he indicated that he would get me what I need this week when they actually bone out a large beef. While these "green targets" aren't exactly cape buffalo heavy, they will at least give some indication as to the performance of the new 300 grain head when striking heavy bone, muscle, and connective tissue. Stay tuned . . .
In France we were a few waiting for a wider Bh, something like the abowyer large bonehead (1.5" / 2.3/8")...there are ever plenty of tough 1/3 Bh on the market, why to buy one of more for almost 3 times the price of some others, should it kill better? we are a little bit disappointed....on my well tuned bow the Ab large bone head have a beautiful flight so it worthes any penny you spend for it...
I have a Buffalo shoulder blade here Gary, ill put one through it when i get them over here.
If you can Gary, try a few shots on the shoulder at about a 45' angle.
Despite a heavier cost, VPA should think about a wider 300 gr head. Any time your arrow pass completely through a game (and sometimes goes several paces aways) it is a big waste of energy which could be given to a wider broadhead for added letality.
I am a happy user of Big Jim VPA 3 blades despite their heavy cost. Those wide Big Jim VPA are expensive ,yes, but they are the only serious choice for a bowhunter looking for a wide solid multiblade broadhead.
IMO, a wider 300 gr 2 blade could really find a good market (for non-buffalo hunters or those bowhunters using 55+# bow on North American or European game) because there is not a big choice and thus price could be more "accepted".
A 5$ 145 gr Eclipse BH (1 5/16 " width) on a 1$ 125 gr stell adaptator or a 4$ 200 gr ACE super express (1 7/16") on a 1$ 100 gr stell adaptator will give me a bigger hole and wound (and no significant BH weakness) for most of the game on Earth so why should i go for these expensive 1 1/8" VPA?
If a 1,5" 2 blade VPA is on the market, i pay more BUT i get a bigger hole.
Wish there were buffalo running around over here in our deer woods.... Well, maybe not !
My 250 grain 2 blade VPA Penetrators just arrived today. They look great, but I now am convinced that for buffalo I want the 300 grain version, mainly to have a longer head with a lesser angle on the blades. I also agree with Andy that for very heavy animals like buffalo, a tip with a less steep angle would probably work better. The 250 grain will do very well for anything up to a very large beast like a buffalo, and the more angled tip will be stronger and hold up better to abuse when the head is not required to penetrate through as much flesh.
These new VPAs appear to be very well made and durable. I am looking forward to putting them to the test.
Allan
These 300s are about 1/4" longer than the 250s. 3.1"/ 1 1/8" = 2.755 ratio. Blades about .067 as I recall. They actually have a couple thou reverse taper...That will help penetration.
Will be putting the 300s up for presale on rayzor-vpa.com soon. As far as glue ons go, there will likely be a couple. Length will vary on weight as with the others. Rockwell hardness is 50 like the Terminators. As written on several posts before, we are a custom manufacturer. We will make whatever someone wants and even brand name them for you. Those wide heads are doable at a cost. This is what we brought out so as that we can use the same material we use for the Terminators. The 300s are going to cost a little more than the others due to additional cost we incurred to produce them and the presale prices on all of them will go up a little once we have them retail packaged. Buying 1 1/4", 1 3/8" to 1 1/2" stock will run the price up to $55-70 at retail per 3 pack and that's if we are able to run and sell 100+ packs (per variation). Reduce the volume and up the price. All the programming and set up time is the same for 1 pack as it is for 1000. If you want to purchase 100+ packs outright your price will obviously be much less. than that.
VPA just sent me one of the first 300 grainers "fresh off the press". It hasn't been heat treated, painted, or Teflon coated yet, but even in it's "naked" state sure looks great!
Here is a photo comparing the 250 gr. I tested (same head) to the unfinished 300 grain received today.
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(http://logsdonstudios.com/2blades.jpg)
Great looking broadhead :thumbsup:
Bill
I like it! When can I order some?
Allan
Thanks for the pics Gary
300gr looks great ill be taking them back to South Africa with me at the end of the year.
There are no weaknesses in these broadheads, the guys at VPA have covered all the angles.
QuoteOriginally posted by tradtusker:
There are no weaknesses in these broadheads, the guys at VPA have covered all the angles.
Glad you approve, Andy. What do you think about the "angle" of the tip? Is it pointed enough for you to think it is just right, or do you wish it was more pointed? We still need to figure out a time to talk soon about our plans.
Allan
I shot the 300 last night and it flew beautifully for me out of a 60 pound bow. My arrow is a 31" Axis "N-Fused" 340 with three 5" helical fletching (approx. 610 grs). I intially shot the arrow with a 300 grain field point to tune, which luckily didn't take very long. When I screwed in the 300 VPA it spun perfectly as usual. My test shots were into a solid black broadhead target so I could pick up the flight more easily. PERFECT, tight spin of yellow feathers upon release. The one I shot hasn't been heat treated, painted, etc. so all I did was shoot it into foam. When I get the finished heads I will slam one into a beef scapula at an angle Andy! The 300s will be in my quiver this fall!
Where can we buy these?
The first run was just sent for heat treatment. I'll ask them to make a post with purchasing info.
rayzor-vpa.com will be selling them until we get the retail packaging nailed down. As noted earlier in the post they are going to be a little more expensive due to the increased manufacturing price. Presale/pre retail packing price will be $45.99. Remember Tragang members get free shipping. Enter coupon code: tradgang at checkout. I am going to post them to the store late this evening when I get a chance. They will be pre-sales for the first run which will be shipping in approx 2 weeks, as will the second run of the other weights. They will be first come -first serve. Open orders on the store front will be shipped in the order received. The next run will wont be available for shipment for approximately a month after.
Also, I wanted to correct myself on the ratio posted earlier. Gary is right. 3.1 overall length. Not sure what I was thinking there.
I would like to see more point and less angle on tip.
Im not concerned about the tanto Allan, ill be making sure i have it SHARP. I have some testing to do before i worry to much about the tip, when i get my hands on the finished 300s ill be putting a few through the Buff shoulders i brought back.
Here is the direct link to Ray's site for ordering
http://www.rayzor-vpa.com/
Thanks Andy. I am going to order them as soon as they are on the site, which so far they aren't. I still want to hear about the testing you and Gary (or anyone else) do on the heads. These are the ones I will bring next year when I go back to Oz unless you tell me not to!
Allan
IMO, Bob's right....
At first I too had doubts about the wider tanto tip . . . it didn't look like the ones I had seen on other heads; would it affect penetration??
The tip on the 250 gr. I tested was factory beveled and reasonably sharp out of the package. After seeing how the point and leading edge held up passing through bone, shot after shot, I came to a new conclusion; the added strength provided by the beefed up leading edge made a lot of sense. No curl, no bending, nothing whatsoever to impede penetration.
I believe that the head will keep its structural integrity as it slices its way through the vitals and out the opposite side if it happens to contact bone on entry.
They are up on the rayzor-vpa.com website now. The amount of Tanto was determined through actual testing. Original prototypes had less. We did not want any curl so it was changed to what you see here.
Well, I just ordered a dozen, so I am counting on them being amazing.
Allan
OK had ordered the 250's but the 300's are what I wanted, so just ordered some of those. Can't wait to try them on some big Hog's.
Slightly off topic I guess but if you haven't,you should take a look at VPA's Small Game Thumper.I was needing some heavier blunts so I got some 200 gr glue on SGT'ers and got them weighted to match my broadheads.That is one nasty head.They fly very well.I shot one through a tough,laundry detergent jug and had to pick a piece of that jug out of the front of the head.It had cut a perfect 5 point,star-shaped hole through that jug,like a cookie cutter.The corresponding piece of plastic stuck in the head,looked like it was stamped out with a die.Really a quality head and a wide variety of weights in both screw on and glue on.I plan to get another set of 250 gr glue ons soon.
http://www.vparchery.com/sgt.php
Its amazing the killing power of those SGTs. We make them in a 300 too. Screw on only.
yup I'll be going to the 300 's as soon as I get back from Africa. Wasn't sure I could have them in time so I went with the 250's for this trip.
Gary,
Looking at the pictures of the heads, is that the actual size of the heads? They look awesome!
Ray,
One of the problems I have experienced with another brand of small game head that had a wider diameter and extended "claws" (or "ears"), like the SGT, was having the screw-in shaft break off from the lateral force of the head hitting hard objects off-center with a claw on one side of the head. Have you had any reports of customers experiencing similar breaking of the SGT shafts? I would think that would be a potentially common problem. When I use a head that does not extend beyond the diameter of the arrow shaft, like a blunt or a hex head, I have never had that kind of breakage, for fairly obvious reasons. I did receive one of your SGT heads with my order, so I am going to give it a strenuous workout to see if it breaks on me. If it doesn't, I will buy more of them.
Allan
While Allan is asking. Are all the SGT's the same diameter? I know they aren't the same size due to grains. :p Can't tell if that is an optical illusion on the pictures where the heaver heads look like they have a larger diameter. Thanks.
Must have missed something. I looked at the sight and can't find anything about the 250 or the 300 head.
Troy
Looks to me as if it should be called 'The Big Nasty'.
I haven't put them on the VPA site yet as they really aren't readily available yet just these having special runs until we catch up for this season. They are on the rayzor-vpa.com storefront for presale reservations and are still on schedule for late ext week or early the following as long as our Teflon coaters turn them around in the normal time..
As for SGTs, diameters vary. As for breaking, no reports I'm aware of but I will say this... They are not made from the same grade of steel as the broadheads. They are heat treated and are quite tough. They are black oxide finished rather than Teflon too. They would have to be a lot more expensive if they were made from the same materials and teflon coated. That would raise the manufacturing cost up considerably and I don't think anyone would like the sale price. You wouldn't believe the emails and calls we got when we recalculated our costs and had to raise the selling price to keep from losing money last year. Couldn't imagine if we tripled it.
the 250gr sgt can occur to break (these one have been shot with my 50@29.5 ACS on a rebel hunter 7595 arrow with 100gr brass insert) but not the other which are very strong (i have also the 100 and 175gr one and they havent fail even shot with my powerful 73#@30 D350).
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2504/imgp0032sr.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/imgp0032sr.jpg/)
Foudarme,
Those are not SGT's. They are 3River's Hammer and that problem has been addressed on new ones.
Ditto Boomerang. Not VPA SGTs. Old version of Hammers. Again, no reported issues with SGTs.
I got my 250gr. two blades yesterday, Wow these look tuff! Shouldn't ever bend one, MO rocks & trees are tuff too! Lol
rayzor-vpa, I noticed the post about getting enough orders to make a batch of wider 300gr screw ons. I don't know if the mods would allow it, but maybe start a post of interest and committments and see if we could get a run of these before season. Maybe 1.5" or wider? I am in for 6 if this helps. Double or single bevel. I know several more interested.
i would be very interested in a 1.5 to 1.75 in head. The simmons sharks , abowyer,centaur, and big Jim big 3 are all devastating heads. If you made one at least 1.5 then the market bear it IMHO. I like big blades. i would fill my quiver with some 1.5s.
Want to fill your quiver with 300 of those 1.5" heads at about $14 each (give or take) we'll be glad to take care of you.