Consistently having my hybrid bows called recurves, especially un-braced.
Think I understand what a hybrid is but the more I learn on this site the more I realize how varied interpretations are on a lot of subject matters within the field of archery. I hope this subject is neither contentious or redundant.
What is the history of the hybrid design? Is there a "Father of Hybrid?" The original bowyer who brought hybrids to market for instance?
Of course I must ask what is probably the historical debate of this subject, and that is is it even a longbow? Or is hybrid a stand alone platform in a long lineage of bow designs?
Lastly, beyond the elegant lines is there sound science that backs up the design?
Thanks in advance,
Keith
I, too, really like some of the hybrids I've tried-and also don't know much about what that term means to most trad shooters. We were discussing what longbow designs were legitimate for our shoots in the Michigan Longbow Association back it the 80s. Couldn't decide then, and I can't decide now. To try to make "hybrid" a "stand alone" category different from the others, seems to me like some of these new species designations for big game. However many ways you slice and dice it, someone will eventually come up with something that blurs the lines.
I don't care. Old classic bows, new custom ones, straight limbs, R/D, hybrid, all-wood, carbon, foam, whatever....if it's hand-drawn and hand-held, then its ok with me.
Hopefully, those catcalls about your "recurves" are coming from jealous minds who can't really deal with the fact you are outshooting them!!!
QuoteWhat is the history of the hybrid design?
There are deflex/reflex bows, aka "hybrids", depicted in cave drawings.
QuoteIs there a "Father of Hybrid?"
Not that I know of. Whoever invented the concept is long gone.
Quote...is it even a longbow? Or is hybrid a stand alone platform in a long lineage of bow designs?
Depends on who you ask/who is making the rules (tournament). They are longbows to me.
Chad
Actually, my bows are in a trophy lodge for fishing up here and most of the comments I receive are from sportsmen up here to ply our waters for salmon and halibut.
I really was hoping for information on the history and from previous experience avoid the categorical rhetoric.
Hybrid by definition: A thing made by combining two different elements; a mixture.
So half recurve half longbow?
***EDIT***
Cave drawings in America?
~CB
Folks who are unfamiliar with traditional archery call all all stickbows recurves. I've had folks call my Hill longbows recurves. Hybrids have been around for a long time. Some of the Bear Alaskans come to mind. Of course, current day builders have stretched the envelope a bit, introducing even more deflex/reflex into the riser/limbs. There's enough bow test data available (check out Blacky Schwartz reviews in TBM) to demonstrate that hybrid designs are very efficient and rival recurves in performance.
CB, I will not muddy the waters about the origins of hybrid bows but do enjoy the views and opinions of other that are cordial about it.
What I do think is cool as all get out is a guy "Combing" an Alaskan Beach and finding a Walrus skull!! Did you get to keep it?
I have new shooters/non-shooters call my longbows Recurves all the time. :dunno:
Have a great day
I have heard it said that the Earl Hoyt designed Sky Archery "Rouge" was the first popular Hybrid long bow....
QuoteSo half recurve half longbow?
Sorta'. The bowyers I've discussed it with are basically trying to get the best attributes of both a recurve and a longbow in one bow. Smooth draw, good speed, low shock, quiet, etc. It's about performance rather than looks.
Some brought up a good point--often those unfamiliar with traditional bows call them all "recurves".
QuoteCave drawings in America?
I think they were in Spain. Don Stokes sent me the link, but I've lost it. The drawing depicted a hunt, and all three bows--longbow, recurve, and "hybrid" were shown.
Chad
it's really quite simple ...
all recurve stickbows have the bowstring touching the limbs at the reflex area just under the limb nocks.
it's a "longbow" if the bowstring loops only sit in the limb nocks and do NOT touch any other part of the limbs. this includes english longbows, native american longbows, classic hill longbows, all hybrid longbows, and all american flat longbows (some of these names are interchangeable).
a "hybrid longbow" has three flavors ...
1. mild r/d - when unbraced there is some "snake" (reflex/deflex) to the limbs and riser, but when braced the limbs have that classic longbow "D" shape.
2. aggressive r/d - when unbraced there is considerable "snake" to the limbs and riser, and when braced there is noticeable reflex in the limb tip area and the bow does NOT form a "D" shape.
3. stealth r/d - this is a special hybrid that has considerable "snake" to the limbs and riser, yet when braced the limbs will form the classic "D" braced shape. two examples are the 21st longbow "edge" and some of the acs designs.
hope this helps. :cool:
Thanks for the responses. I'm in that soaking up everything mode that comes with new hobbies and I just can't get enough of this stuff.
I notice there are many degrees of deflex by different bowyers and it's extremely interesting to me why they vary so much. Recently was checking out the Habu site and checking out the concept of hycurve limbs. Just another adaptation on a ancient insrument. Just find this incredibly interesting...
Mr. DiStefano, Thank you sir. That definately gives perspective.
Chuck,
What my avatar doesn't show are the game bags of moose in the boat. Not a trad harvest just a meat hunt. I take my boat to an island here that is over run with moose and the regs are very liberal for Alaska. "If it's brown it's down". Even cows with calves are allowed and for Alaska thats almost unheard of. After we got the moose and gear all loaded up we were waiting for tide to leave the island. Out of nothing to do I walked a mile or so down the beach and came across that skull. I was more than delighted that it was all in tact as it was in between some huge cottonwoods that could have easily crushed it. You are allowed to keep them but they have to be sealed by the Feds. You cannot sell them unless you're of native origin.
This is one of seven vertebrea I found and a local hunting buddy created a monster of it.
(http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47/chromebuck/P5090415.jpg)
~CB
I've always heard the determining factor was like Rob said....If the string touches the limb past the nock it's a recurve. If it only touches the bow in the nock area, not on the limb, it's a longbow.
Back in the day, some hybrid designs were called or considered "semi-curves"...Look it up.
QuoteOriginally posted by Zbone:
Back in the day, some hybrid designs were called or considered "semi-curves"...Look it up.
yup, quite true. still, those things are "longbows". :D
the more interesting story is about those stealth longbows, and in particular 21st "edge". for some stupid reason that longbow was (perhaps still is) allowed in ifaa "classic longbow" tournaments because the officials only measure longbows for their braced "D" shape. pitting an "edge" against an elb is like having a drag race between two vw beetles, where one bug is box stock standard and the other has a retro-fitted porche carrera engine. :D
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Zbone:
Back in the day, some hybrid designs were called or considered "semi-curves"...Look it up.
yup, quite true. still, those things are "longbows". :D
the more interesting story is about those stealth longbows, and in particular 21st "edge". for some stupid reason that longbow was (perhaps still is) allowed in ifaa "classic longbow" tournaments because the officials only measure longbows for their braced "D" shape. pitting an "edge" against an elb is like having a drag race between two vw beetles, where one bug is box stock standard and the other has a retro-fitted porche carrera engine. :D [/b]
I hear ya ! Great shooting bows but ... against a Hill style or ELB ?
Fooorrggeettaabboouuttttiiitttt !!!
If it doesn't touch the string , IMHO, its a longbow , not a recurve no matter how much R/d is in the limb . They just ain't as much a longbow as some other 'real' longbows ..... :cool:
Does it really matter? I don't think it is worth concerning one's self over. Either way, it is a "traditional" (non-wheel) bow.
When I posted pictures of our Hunter series (http://keepitsimplearchery.webs.com/hunterseries.htm) "longbow" on one site, someone quickly stepped up and mentioned that it wasn't a longbow and that a "true longbow" is...
Rather than arguing the point that the string doesn't touch the tip, I just stated the truth. The design received influence from the recurve even though it is a "longbow" so instead of arguing as to how to classify it, I chose to focus more on the bow's traits and not worry about "classes." Classes generally separate groups into smaller categories because some feel a given design has a handicap. I myself am not into affirmative action or entitlements at 3D events. I think, let the best bow win. Howard Hill could hit really well with his HH bows and I believe that was the best bow for him. Of course, we are all different.
I believe in shooting the best bow one can...and I define best by accuracy, efficiency, durability, stability, maneuverability, and quietness...but that is because I use the bow as a hunting tool, and view competition as a friendly way to test one's hunting skills. I would like to see traditional archery evolve into just two classes myself, 1. traditional bowhunter with modern arrows and 2. traditional bowhunter with wood arrows. Regardless of the class, a finger release would be required and with no sight pins are allowed (since the long term durability of sight pins isn't tested in a 3D shoot). Other than that, let whatever style bow or style of shooting win. You just had to be able to get your shot off. An event can be set up to test many of the bow's attributes. Can you shoot in unorthodox positions? If you were a string walker, that's fine, but can you hit the moving targets? "Survival of the fittest" type of mindset.
As far as bows go, in my opinion there are ultimately two classes of bows. Those designed for bowhunting and those designed for field archery, as this doesn't really go together...
(http://www.wildlifewatchingsupplies.co.uk/images/5in1_jacket1.jpg) + (http://www.world-of-archery.com/media/Beiter_Stabilize.jpg)
It isn't worth arguing about IMO. They are all non-wheeled bows. Let the best bow win. This causes both bowyers and archers to "step up to the plate" to produce and shoot the best bow possible for a given situation.
Recently recorded PBS special on Abraham Lincoln and Mary and in the final 3 part series, and they showed a photograph of two Civil War solders holding rifles and at the same time what looked like to me, to be longbows. The photo was a little blurred and cropped for TV, but if they were bows, they looked about head high length and of a semi-curve design.
So that design is nothing new... :)
Haven't hear the the term 'semi-curve' used in many moons.
I simply will not subscribe to the definition that states: "it's a "longbow" if the bowstring loops only sit in the limb nocks and do NOT touch any other part of the limbs." Way too broad and frankly lazy a definition in my opinion unless of course it fit pretty well fit for an earlier time in our archery history. But with today's massive pistol grip risers and heavily R/D limbs? No. It's a hybrid-why can't we just call it what it is? The definition of hybrid is a cross between two or more traits etc.creating something new (gist). It doesn't by definition remain what it was if you "cross fertilize!" Does anyone call a mule a horse?! So calling it a longbow is a misnomer. I prefer the def they use in many of the European tourneys where the longbow in this case at least has to maintain a continuous "D" shape when strung and not be cut to center. That at least is a more exacting definition and far more fair for competition. Of course, they don't even call them "longbows" over there but "American Flatbows" if they even have a shelf but I'm fine with "longbow" over here. There are some "hybrids/longbows" where you have to dang near strain your eyes to tell it's not a recurve! I'm fine though if no one here shares my definition-it really is just an opinion/preference. Hybrids are GREAT bows-they just don't give ME the feeling of a longbow that I seek when I shoot one. Gotta have that "broomstick grip" of yore and a classic "D". My favorite, funny, quote in this regard is: "Hybrids are for people who want to say they shoot a longbow without ever having to shoot a longbow!" Damn I wish I thought of that one! :) Peace! My last post!
I tried different "Longbows" and after much trial I chose a Hybrid by Arnold Smit.I get a smoother draw and faster arrow. I shoot it for 3D and Field Hunter.
In the field I don't think it maters. When you start having any kind of competition there will always be someone out there trying to stretch the rules to gain an advantage.
That's how IPSC got all those fancy race guns. Even in muzzleloaders there is a sight called a "Friendship Cheater" that is an aperture sight placed close to the eye but is not completely closed at the top so it can shoot in the open sight class.That's why most rules state in any sport the range officers ruling is final to settle any difference.
Rob has given an already good explanation. However, when uou shoot tournamants, you'll meet IFAA rules. Officially my Hybrid Longbow would be a recurve, according to their rules, because it has no exact D-shape when strung. Here are their (silly) rules regarding Longbows:
a. A one piece straight ended bow of any material, which when strung displays one continued unidirectional curve, which is measured as follows:
When the strung bow is placed with the bowstring in a vertical position, the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved further away from the bow grip.
Where there is any doubt as to the continuing curve of the limb then a string-line laid from the end of the riser fade out to the commencement of the tip overlays (or if there are no overlays then the point at which the bow string is held in the nock groove) on the back of the strung bow shall show no gaps between the string line and the bow limb.
b. The tip reinforcing may not exceed 20mm in height, measured from the surface of the back of the bow limb and may not exceed 50mm in length, measured from the centre of the string groove towards the bow grip.
c. The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. The side of the window shall be slanted over the full length of the window and rounded off at the point where the window intersects with the top bow limb. The window cut may not exceed the centre of the bow.
d. The belly, bow grip, the window and the arrow shelf shall be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as sighting aids.
e. Any additions to the bow for the purpose of stabilisation, levelling, draw-weight reduction, sighting and/or draw checking are not permitted
f. Only one nocking point shall be allowed on the string, which may be marked by either one or two nocking point locators. If resting nocks are used -such as ball nocks -only one locator may be used.
String silencers no closer than 30 cm above or below the nocking point are allowed.
g. Arrows shall be of wood, fletched with natural feather, and must be of the same length, fletch and pile, without regard for colour. The arrow must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids. Nocks may be of any material and any weight of pile may be used.
h. The bow must be shot with the "Mediterranean" loose. In cases of physical deformity or handicap special dispensation shall be made.
i. Entries that do not comply with the above rules shall be classified in the recurve.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
.. However, when you shoot tournamants, you'll meet IFAA rules. Officially my Hybrid Longbow would be a recurve, according to their rules, because it has no exact D-shape when strung....
the ifaa longbow competition rules are truly stupid.
not because they wish to restrict longbows to those that brace to a "D" shape, or that they want participants to use only hill style or elb longbows, but it's because of the methodology they use to decide whether or not a longbow meets their rules definition.
since they only check a braced longbow, any braced mild or aggressive hybrid longbow that's "D" shaped is allowed. that means that an aggressive hybrid longbow such as the 21st century 'edge' is allowed to compete in ifaa competitions. and it has been allowed, and it has won the ifaa longbow championships.
that's like having a volkswagon beetle drag race and someone shows up with a porsche engine in their bug. :D
i called them out on their longbow rules over 5 years ago and they ifaa did nothing whatsoever. what a travesty. what a dumb rule!
QuoteOriginally posted by Curveman:
I simply will not subscribe to the definition that states: "it's a "longbow" if the bowstring loops only sit in the limb nocks and do NOT touch any other part of the limbs." Way too broad and frankly lazy a definition in my opinion unless of course it fit pretty well fit for an earlier time in our archery history. But with today's massive pistol grip risers and heavily R/D limbs? No. It's a hybrid-why can't we just call it what it is? The definition of hybrid is a cross between two or more traits etc.creating something new (gist). It doesn't by definition remain what it was if you "cross fertilize!" Does anyone call a mule a horse?! So calling it a longbow is a misnomer. I prefer the def they use in many of the European tourneys where the longbow in this case at least has to maintain a continuous "D" shape when strung and not be cut to center. That at least is a more exacting definition and far more fair for competition. Of course, they don't even call them "longbows" over there but "American Flatbows" if they even have a shelf but I'm fine with "longbow" over here. There are some "hybrids/longbows" where you have to dang near strain your eyes to tell it's not a recurve! I'm fine though if no one here shares my definition-it really is just an opinion/preference. Hybrids are GREAT bows-they just don't give ME the feeling of a longbow that I seek when I shoot one. Gotta have that "broomstick grip" of yore and a classic "D". My favorite, funny, quote in this regard is: "Hybrids are for people who want to say they shoot a longbow without ever having to shoot a longbow!" Damn I wish I thought of that one! :) Peace! My last post!
essentially, i agree.
which will mean never to use the word 'longbow' by itself.
it's either 'hill style longbow' or 'elb longbow' or 'american flat longbow'. meaning the longbow in question has backset, straight, or bellyset limbs, no more or less.
all the rest - even if they brace to a "D" shape - are hybrid longbows. which can also be classed as 'mild r/d longbow' (snaky at rest, "D" when braced) or 'aggressive r/d longbow' (shows tip reflex when braced).
or just call 'em all 'longbows', but understand the differences. :D
Most people in my area call all stickbows "longbows". When you correct them and try to explain you always get the same puzzled look.
I guess I make the same puzzled look when I see a recurve takedown riser with longbow limbs refered to as a longbow. Don't look like one to me. But, that's me.
I had been shooting my hybrid for quite awhile and had a growing desire to get a "real" longbow. You know, one of those classic D shaped, 68", thump your hand, old style bows without an ergonomically shaped grip. I bought one last winter and haven't put it down since. I forgot how much fun and how challenging they were to shoot.
They're all good as long as they don't have wheels...............except for those nasty looking metal riser bows! :)
I totally agree with Rob. Fox Triple Crown bows are another example. This bow has agressive R/D, but when strung a D-shape. And when I am not mistaken, this bow won several championships too.
Perhaps it is a good idea to put the original longbows (straight when unstrung and straight broomstick grip) in the historical class and put all the R/D and/or pistolgrip longbows in the "Flatbow class". There you go!
Fitaa rules in this aspect are rediculous: "now we have to make distinction between R/D longbows with a little more or a little less R/D, or no, wait, a bow with much more R/D, but which is build in such a way that the bow keeps it's D-shape when strung is a "real" longbow while a bow with less R/D but no real D-shape is not?"
Forgive me but I am lost here....
I shoot a Hybride because I like it. I shoot with wooden arrows with real feathers, my string doesn't touch the limbs when strung, I shoot split-finger, so I am always in the Longbow-class.
When people have a problem with that, my answer is simple:
- Okay, then the organization has to measure up all longbows first
- you have to put a jury by each archer to check if they are not string- or facewalking
- check all arrows
Most of the time they don't do that... :)
When we have our national championship I am not there, because it is organized by an organisation who hasn't a clue what 3D shooting is about and apply IFAA rules, so by-by!I am shooting for having a good time, not for following stupid rules, made by those who never had a traditional bow in their hands :mad:
A "broomstick" handle and a continuos "D" when strung and not cut to center is my defining line to still acceptably call it a longbow; if even a "steathly one". To the left of it the "classic longbow" (like "Coke Classic."). :) To the right of that line-it's a hybrid. To the right of the hybrid-a recurve! If it looks like a longbow it is a longbow. If it looks like a hybrid; it is a hybrid-not a longbow. There! I settled it! Thor has spoken! :D