http://www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/KS/Hoxie/2011-10
according to this, full moon in Hoxie, KS is October 11 9:07 pm
New Moon is Octboer 26th at 2:56 pm
http://www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/KS/Hoxie/2011-11
there is November, and I normally like to hunt the first or second week of November
according to the above, I can expect a first quarter moon on Nov 2nd at 11:38 am ... the full moon comes back in on Nov 10th at 2:18 pm
Ya'll tell me - does moon matter? How would ya'll play this if you believe moon phase matters?
i think deer will walk a lot more during the nights of full moons....
usually, i try to hunt during the middle of the day during thoes periods. its hard to do during the early part of the season with the weather being crazy hot.
"there is November, and I normally like to hunt the first or second week of November" Just to correct you it's first AND second week.
I don't like the full moon as what Blaino stated. But when it comes to legal shooting time, I feel the rut is the same every year, just more intense when the new moon is the first week in NOV.
I'll be in Stockton, KS.
Bowmania
Bowmani - I mean I plan a 1 week trip to western Kansas, some years its the first week of Nov, some years its the second. I've never hunted two full weeks in a row because of vacation time, being away from family etc.
Bowmania and BradLantz- You guys will be hunting in my neck of the woods! Give me a shout if you aren't seeing any deer. BTW if you don't mind me asking, who do you guys hunt with around here? PM me if you want if not thats fine
Deer definitely move and, during the rut, breed more during a full moon and tend to lay up most of the day. I'm retired now and have the luxury of hunting both, but definitely prefer the new moon.
Full moon changes deer movement during daylight hours because they feed much of the night especially in hard hunted areas. Try middle of the day. Seen some good ones straight up noon.
My belief is to hunt when the moon is directly overhead no matter what the phase is. Deer move when the moon is up daytime or nighttime hunt the 26th if possible
I do. I've been following the Charles Alzheimer study (Deer and Deer Hunting) since the onset. I now longer care for the magazine cause it's mostly horn porn now and tons of crossbow ads but I buy one copy a year. The rut/moon phase forecast. It's been pretty dead on every year. I've seen the peak of breeding activity vary from the 3rd week of Oct to the 3rd week of Nov and the intensity of ruts vary from year to year in coordination with the timing of the hunter's moon.
As a bowhunter/biologist since 1977 I don't put any stock in moon phases at all. I'm familiar with the research and know that some of it, especially some that lead to commercial products was "cooked". That written, if your outfitter, landowner, etc. has documented certain movements under specific conditions I imagine it would pay to be mindful.
Personally, my favorite pre-dawns are those where I am paralled by moon shadows as I slip to my stand.
However, I realize how much of bowhunting has to do with confidence; your shooting, your equipment, set-up, wind, light, etc. I wouldn't poo-poo anyone's beliefs in these things. For me, I go every chance I can -- except when it is raining or threatening rain. I have never lost a blood trail to rain and I have no intention of stacking the deck against me.
It is amazing how "flexible or fickle" some deer are. When you watch them move about, for some deer it takes very little disturbance or enticement to get them to take one step either oblique right or left to change where they end up 1/4-1/2 mile away. A spooked squirrel, bird, other deer, or errant odor can influence the deer's travel route as much as anything.
If the tempetures are in the normal range for that time of year, the calander is spot on.
Do whatever Alvis says! He'll know what is right.
I learned and witnessed long ago...not only in hunting, but fishing as well that the moon can dictate under normal circumstances.
The rut and weather fronts can force move deer no matter the moon, and other forces....but under normal circumstances, paying attention to the moon has reaped BIG dividens for me.
I always hunt 'through lunch' if I can during a full moon. I can't tell you how many encounters I've had between 10:30 and 1:00 during a full moon. If I told you what all I've witnessed mid day during a full moon, while others were in camp eating lunch, you would not believe me.
I do hunt closer to bedding areas during that time....and that I believe also plays a big part of me being in the middle of it during mid day.
I NEVER discount hunting during a full moon. I also like to hunt in the rain, not a driving rainstorm, but a steady rain or drizzle. I just choose my shot a little more selectively, and when I have done that, I haven't needed a blood trail.
I have found that most animals don't react to the shot in the rain due to the overwhelming 'static' of noise in the woods, and a double lunged critter don't usually travel more than 50 yards.
These are my findings...and I found out by staying in the woods during a full moon AND during the rut no matter the moon. This was told to me by an old timer a long time ago....and he was right....I owe him greatly for my mid-day memories.
I second Terry's post. I agree with every word of it. He kind to beat me to it. ;)
I'll add to that I pay attention to the llamas, and horses around my place. They seem to be in synch with the local deer herd. I guess they are reacting to the same cues. Weather,wind, moon,light etc.
PS ignore cattle... they never seem to stop eating :)
I don't adhere to the theory that moon phase totally dictates the rut dates, because too many really good deer biolgists say that photo-period (diminishing daylight) is the kick start of the rut, along with the fact that fawns are dropped about the same time every following spring due to many reasons, meaning that the doe's are bred about the same time every year, regardless of weather or moon phase.
That said, in my 35 years of bowhunting, a dead calm full moon evening invariably means a lone red squirrel sighting was about the highlight of the evening sit.
Not to say the rut isn't happening, but just not usually when you're hunting.
This fall, the new moon is October 26 and the full moon is Novenber 10. At least for me, I've already made my plans to take all my major time off from Oct. 25 thru November 4. I plan on hunting everyday, those dates. I likely will only hunt a few times before those dates, to knock the rust off and just get out. But it will not be happening in my great spots.
Stand burnout is the bowhunters achilles heel. If one keeps good records, I bet he'll find that the very first time he's hunted a location results in a very eventful sit, but after 2-3 sits, regardless of how great the location, sightings often crash. Too many bowhunters hunt their best spots way too early, when it's hot and deer really aren't moving, but they've laid down scent and spooked deer, no matter how cautious we all are. You cannot beat the "nose". My advice it to save your best spots for the best dates, and winds. Don't hunt your couple best spots until the chase period has just started.
Not to say you can't kill a deer, even great deer, on any date, in any weather. But the initial chase period of the rut, when the majority bucks are still alive and hoofbound, all day, for the first time all year, and still "stupid", is your best time to intercept a good buck, before he's educated or killed by another.
Just my opinion, but it's really worked well for me in my local area for heavily pressured northern Michigan. I can't speak for area's with far less pressure.
not true on cattle when they are in corner of pasture or EATING during time when normaly chewing cud something is gonna happen like rain or snow other than that they just eat other than that i have found the best week to hunt deer here in ks is the week befor thanksgiving thing are usaly prety good for deer
As briefly mentioned above I pay more attention to moon position than phase. When the moon straight overhead and straight underneath (12 1/2 hours after it's above) I always see deer movement.
I do not know why it works but it does. I think this is part of the reason that Terry mentioned that he see's good movement on full mooon periods mid day.
For the record....due to MOJO's post...I did not say that moon phase dictates the rut....just when I see more deer activity based on years of hunting an paying attention to the moon and sightings.
I was pointing out deer activity based on moon phase. Or at least trying to do so. In fact, I gave dates when many can expect to see increased daylight activity.
I dismissed the moon phase's effect on the rut, since photo-period dictates the rut dates, year in and year out. But, in my experience, moon phase can impact daylight activity. And daylight activity is what hunters focus on.
The "rut" is more than just the rut itself. There's the seeking phase, the chase phase, the breeding stage (lockdown), etc.
It's the chase period that most hunters think of when they think "the rut" and it's also when most daylight activity is seen by hunters.
Mentioning the rut takes deer activity into account. Many confuse the "October lull" with just normal daylight activity. All the "October lull" is IS normal daylight activity, until the chase period starts.
For many hunters, the chase period of the rut is when they'll see the most activity and have what they consider to be the best hunting (most enjoyable/exciting).
But even then, my experience is the chase period mixed with a full moon kills daylight activity (hunting) and a new moon mixed with the chase period results in those hunts where the memories that last a lifetime are made.
I should clarify one thing, this may merely be the case in the north, where the rut is often quite defined and often intense as a light switch. In the south it may be a completely different story, where you may have a much more subtle and drawn out "rut", resulting in daylight deer activity, thus sightings.
I learned about stand burn out back in my late twenties. I had permission on the hottest property of my life in those days -- 1,100 acres in Indiana on the MI state line -- Elkhart County. It didn't matter how bad I sucked, I saw deer on this place. I kept a diary during those days (I averaged 63 hunts/season). I only counted deer in bow range.
When I'd move a stand (I only owned a couple in those days)I'd see lots of deer day 1 and 2 (I recall my record was 26 deer in bow range), fewer and fewer until I was down to "only" 1-2 per hunt. Then I'd move the stand. It never failed, I always started to see lots of deer again.
I thought I was the world's best scouter. Then after two seasons of this I realized, I had been stinking up the place or otherwise alerting deer to my presence -- even though I rarely observed a deer becoming spooked, they were patterning me. The longer I hunted in the same stand the more the deer were aware and avoided my stand.
I lived in South Carolina for several years. It was legal to "shine" deer until 10 PM, as long as there were no weapons in the vehicle. Members of the club I was in routinely rode the roads around our lease looking at the deer after dark. When the night was dark, we saw many more deer in the open than on full moon nights, contrary to what we expected. On a good dark night we would literally see 10 times as many deer as on a full moon night. I don't know what the deer are doing on a full moon night, but it apparently doesn't include getting out in the open. Maybe they feed in the woods when the moon lights things up.
My experience hunting matches Terry's. I learned to hunt midday hours during bright moon phases.
Bowwild,
Stand burnout is even a bigger concern on smaller properties. If 2 guys are hunting 40 acres, you need to be really smart about how you hunt it, without "ruining" the parcel before things get good.
In Michigan, our bow season opens October 1. I know lots of guys that plan lots of time off work, and the all important wife permission time, on the first week. They do so because they've been dying to "go huntin'" and give into impatience. I don't blame them, but what often happens is, daytime highs are 65 and daytime activity is nill. Now, in some farmland area's, deer can still be in easily predicted summer patterns, but not so much in other wooded area's.
So what happens is, they burn up valueable free time, alert deer to the location, and see little deer activity.
It's hard to do, but I suggest hunting only sparingly until the chase period starts, then pack in multiple all day sits, hunting a different spot each time, taking winds into account, of course.
And taking the moon phase into account. That's why I'm already planning on the new moon dates in late October vs the full moon around Nov. 10 for my Michigan hunts.
Of the bowhunters I know that are typically most successful, this is the strategy they employ.
It's kind of a "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes" sort of thing. Don't burnout a spot until things really crank up and are as perfect as they can get.
My best bow buck was killed on Nov. 1 2005. The location was also among my best. I completely stayed out of it until that Nov. 1 day. I wasn't in the spot for 2 minutes, literally, when the buck came by. I was lucky enough to had just nocked an arrow. It was that fast. I hadn't even gotten my face mask or hat on. I remember when the buck ran off with my arrow sticking out I said to myself "what the *@#& just happened!".
I got busted by a really nice 3 years ago, in the same situation. I had just sat down around 3pm for a peak chase period hunt and was still clearing leaves at my feet only to look up and see him 20 yards away staring right at me. That was also the very first time that spot was hunted.
If anyone fishes small trout streams, you'll learn that it's usually the first cast, assuming it's a good cast, into the slot/pool that gets a trout to chase. Stand burnout really isn't much different.
The moon phase may well effect different regions differenty as far as daylight activity. I don't know the southern rut or how different variables impact the deer down there. Anything about my experiences as far as bowhunting is roughly from the 40th parallel, north.
Mojosticks, I have experienced much of the same things here in NE Kansas. A lot of good info here.
This has turned into a great thread packed w/consistent experiences. May have to hit you up Mojo for your reference material or field notes. MOF, would be good if you could post them on a thread.
The south often has ruts by county. That is, one part of Texas will have bucks running all over Hell's half acre chasing does while nearby nothing. Never thought to correlate it w/moon phases. BUT, I have seen many of the biggest deer of my life at midday.
"BUT, I have seen many of the biggest deer of my life at midday."
It's amazing how many bowhunters overlook mid-day when conditions all line up. Lots of guys think only daylight to 10am and then go back out at 3pm til dark. In parts of the season that thinking is just fine, but not when "the stars align".
In my opinion, if one can hit it when there's a new moon just when the chase phase of the rut starts, (and if in the north, with a light rain/snow mix-I just love those days), you have to hunt all day on those days. Those are the dream days. On such days, 10am can be action filled, as can noon and 2pm.
Nothing new here... anytime during the rut but Full Moon has me packing a lunch.... While I haven't documented it.. I think I see less deer right at daybreak and sunset on those full moon days... But Full moon days whenever its not 80+ degrees(we' have had some wierd weather here in GA in November) the amount of movement between 10-3pm seems greater...
I agree with Terry on those drizzly days... I also think any overcast day is good as well.. I find heavy wind and lightning to be not only dangerous but downers for deer activity as well...
:dunno:
I certainly believe deer are effected by moon phase. BUT, I believe more in hunting every opportunity regardless. I have taken deer at all times of the day and during all mone phases. Often a deer is "jumped" by other hunters smell, noise or movement and wanders to different cover; so opportunities come at any time. I'm more apt to still hunt during full or fuller moon phases as I believe the deer are more active at night in those times and lay up more or longer during the day.
In NY our legal hunting times are official sunrise to official sunset, so it matters not for hunter visibility
Yep....good info here for sure.
:campfire:
lots of good points but what if I simplify the question ....
you can choose to use your only week of vacation to bowhunt big whitetails in Kansas and your choices are
hunt the week where the New Moon is at 2:56 P.M. on Wed (Oct 26th)
hunt the week where the First Quarter is at 11:38 A.M. (Nov 2nd)
hunt the week where the Full Moon is at 2:18 P.M. on Thursday Nov 10th
hunt the week where the Last Quarter is at 9:10 A.M on Nov 18th
When is peak rut? There's a monthly cycle and an annual cycle and you want to find the "best" of where they intersect. In NY it would likely be just slightly after that full moon, so say right around Oct 15th would be prime time. We usually peak around November 1st with the shortening daylight and chillier nights (Kansas may be different??), so the 26th would be my "for planning" date of your choices.
But then you'll ALWAYS get "you should have been here last week" regardless.
If you hunt the full moon, hunt the middle of the day. A lot of hunters leave the woods mid-day and as a result kick bedded deer up ahead of them. These deer will remain moving and if you stay in the woods, you'll get some shot opportunities. I might note that this applies no matter what the moon phase.
Bill
I live in Kansas and he first three weeks of November would be my choice of the best time to catch rut activity.
If I'm reading the opinions right, a full moon at 2 o'clock in the afternoon isn't going to affect deer nearly as much as if it were a 11:30 pm full moon, right?
1.) Always use the locals advice when they're nice enough to give it. ;-) By mid November we're done with the rut hereabouts.
2.) The 2pm moon still effects the does (and therefore bucks) but the activity will be to your benefit if it happens when you can see it.
3.) We're talking biology and not mechanics. Deer, trees and children never do what you expect and even more rarely what you want. There are anticipators and stragglers on the fringes of the bell curve.
Good luck and much success.
Last season the best deer hunting I had was the second weekend in Nov. its also opening weekend of pheasant season in KS. I live 40 minutes from Hoxie and an hour and a half from Stockton. I don't remember what the moon phase was but I do remember rattling in five bucks in two hours that Sunday of opening weekend. I've also had a lot of luck starting the 23rd of October till the 1st of November. I've killed 3 of my last 4 buck that last week of October. That being the new moon this year, I'll defiantly be out in the woods during that time this year. Hope this helps.
I lived in Kansas 3.5 years. If I had one week I'd go for the 2nd week and hope the winds weren't much higher than the daily average of 13mph.
Here in KY my favorite times are:
1st 2 days of the season (1st weekend of September)-- 1/3rd of the bowkill will be in the first month of the season. But that's hunter behavior more than deer patterns.
Last week of October
First 2 weeks of November (firearms starts 2nd Saturday)
My favorite day of the season, due to past events, is Election day Tuesday in November.
I never seem to see as much when there is a full moon at night. Whether I'm rabbit hunting or deer and elk hunting. The elk don't seem to talk as much either. Gary
Relative to stand burnout, I live in the corner of my 50 acres. Twenty of it is in mixed pine/hardwood timber, the other 30 being very thick cutover. I mostly hunt the woods, and to avoid burnout I have 10 ladder stands situated around the property. I almost never hunt the same stand twice in a row. I hunt the stands according to wind direction and where I hunted last, and I have a portable stand to set up if a hot spot develops, usually a white oak the deer a favoring at the moment. It's remarkable how the deer movement patterns change during the season just in the 20 acres of woods.
During the bright moon phases I definitely see more deer in the midday hours than early or late. When the moon is dark, I try to get to my stand while it is still too dark to shoot. When the moon is bright, I'm lazy and wait until about 10 AM to go out.
Brad, of the options you presented,
"hunt the week where the Last Quarter is at 9:10 A.M on Nov 18th"
that would be my choice.
Lots of big boys are out looking again after they lost their does. Movement as a whole won't be as high as the first week of November but the big boys are really moving during that period.
QuoteOriginally posted by BoonRoto:
Brad, of the options you presented,
"hunt the week where the Last Quarter is at 9:10 A.M on Nov 18th"
that would be my choice.
Lots of big boys are out looking again after they lost their does. Movement as a whole won't be as high as the first week of November but the big boys are really moving during that period.
:thumbsup: spot on
Geeezz....I read the tittle....and not the question.
I didn't realize you were picking a week....I need to slow down....we'll, can't till the auction is over! :biglaugh:
Stumpkiller,
You asked "when is peak rut".
There is no concrete answer because regions are different. The farther south you go, the later it gets. The amount of sunlight per day is the reason and not temps. In the north, the days get short in late October.
From speaking to MDNR biologists for my area of Michigan, they told me that a doe's estrogen level peaks around Halloween/first week of November and so does a buck's sperm count.
For my area, the majority of the fawn drop the following spring is the key to understanding when the "peak" breeding occurs.
Whitetails have roughly a 200 day gestation period and the survival mechanism is that most fawns will be dropped within a short 2 week period.
Think of the rut as a big bell curve, with the top of the curve being "peak". But there's still activity occuring on the edges. Plus, the rut is more than just breeding itself. There's the seek phase, when you start to see the first scrapes, then the chase phase when you see bucks all stoked up literally chasing doe's. The actual breeding part can bring deer sightings to a crash because when a doe is ready to breed, she doesn't go far and often multiple bucks will stick on her like glue. That's known as "lockdown".
If you've ever had a season where everyone was seeing bucks chasing everywhere for like a week, then all of a sudden it's like they disappeared, that's lockdown. That's different than stand burnout, because all of your neighbors will suddenly report the same thing.
A few years back, we had a hard shutoff like that at my property. For the first 3 days of November we saw like 25 different bucks chasing and at all hours. But then on Nov. 4, it was like all the deer disappeared. Nobody saw another deer for a few days and conditions were perfect. That's a major lockdown, and unusual in it's magnitude, in my opinion. Usually it's more subtle.
At least in the north, what hunters typically think of the rut is always from around October 20 thru mid-November. The reason is, the amount of sunlight in the day is constant year to year, which is the driver of the breeding season and the majority of the fawns must be dropped in May or early June at the latest.
What many call the "late rut" in the north is most often when some female fawns come into estrus for the first time.
This is a great thread....
""A few years back, we had a hard shutoff like that at my property. For the first 3 days of November we saw like 25 different bucks chasing and at all hours. But then on Nov. 4, it was like all the deer disappeared. Nobody saw another deer for a few days and conditions were perfect. That's a major lockdown, and unusual in it's magnitude, in my opinion. Usually it's more subtle.""
This is when I throw them a curve ball...I don't hunt the food....or the open woods...or even the edges...I cheat into the thicket boarders into the bedding areas.
These areas may or may not be available on the property you are hunting....if they are, this is the time to ease into the bedding area on the down wind side and get in about 50 or 60 yards.
These areas are best found during the off season when you can bump deer but not 'run them off' hopefully...and scout the inside boarders of the thickets/bedding areas for forage and perimeter trails and have a stand or two picked out only for the 'lock down' time...OR, during those extremely windy days deer don't feel comfortable in the big woods feeding.
Just make sure you don't over hunt these areas...and if you have multiple areas like this don't hunt the same place twice once you've been made, and have a route pruned so you don't leave scent coming or going.
The deer in these areas feel REAL comfortable cause they are rarely disturbed there, and its best to keep it that way when all possible. But! These rare hunt scenarios are priceless as the deer seem to think they are all safe and sound and there body language is the laxed you might ever see.
Here in my part of north Mississippi, the biologists say the rut peaks in mid-December on the average, but the bucks seem to be most active from late November to mid-December. That's when you're most likely to see a mature buck during daylight.
Just wondering, since the reduction in daylight isn't as sharp in the south, is the rut a little more drawn out and subtle down there?
Or can it be short and intense too?
Mojo...funny you should say that.
Here's what I've found over the years...
Yes...the rut is wild n wooly in November...here in N GA most of the chasing is the last two weeks of November...sometimes the 2nd and 3rd week. The last weekend in Oct is a GREAT weekend to hunt as the bucks are 'bird dogging' sent trails and they seem 'dumb as a box of rocks' walking and trotting along with their nose to the ground. I've had them bought bump into me during that pre-rut phase.
However, there seems to have been a change over the last 5 years. Still wild n wooly in Nov....but stronger Dec ruts and the evolution of January ruts.
Use to be the horns fell off the bucks in early Jan....now bucks are still toting racks in March...and tiny fawns being seen during the season.....not just the beginning, but in the later part of the season...meaning they were born July / August.
the difference in hunting right before the first does come in and right after is that the big boys corral those first does and out into the open lands they go, not coming into the creek bottoms until a day or two later after romancing that lady one on one
I like to watch the weather too and this fall I think maybe I can actually adjust my vacation if a really lat October cold snap is forecasted etc
I will very likely hunt Nov 5-12 based on moon and time of normal rut .... if its super warm forecast I might push it a week later as well or super cold foirecast, a week earlier?
(http://i52.tinypic.com/9ggeh4.jpg)
Brad...I hear ya...but I think you should worry more about 'where' you hunt the property...and 'when' you hunt during the day(all day if not sure)...than what dates.
Take the moon and 'roll with it'.
Just my 2 cents.
Can't wait to hear your stories when you are back.
:campfire:
My all bamboo Zipper this year Terry - I'll have a semi-live thread as always, maybe better photo's and video too because this year its got to be 150" or better for me to shoot - that leaves a lot of camera time on the 125-150" bucks I might see !
Nov 5-12 is my target if the weatehr forecast isn't 80 degrees every day ! If it is, I'll push it to a Nov 13-20 type hunt I imagine
Best of luck Sir!!! :campfire:
I didn't read all the responses, but here's my take, for what its worth (maybe not much!).
I've watched whitetails and paid attention to the moon for a while and, frankly, I think intensity of the rut YOU SEE is 90%+ weather and less than 10% moon phase - the timing doesn't change much at all. When I say the rut YOU SEE I mean just this - in the Midwest the does get bred about the same time every year, the weather dictates how much of that happens in the daytime (when YOU SEE it) - the fawns will still be born in the spring whether you see a rut or not. The better (colder) the weather the more daytime activity, the warmer the less - simple.
I take the 1st 2 weeks of November off to hunt deer every year. If I draw a tag for Dad's place in Iowa I go out there the 1st week of November - in a place with more competition by mature bucks I want to hunt this pre-rut or beginning of the "following period" time - end of the active chase phase (mostly younger bucks chasing hard). The last 3 bucks I killed out there were in 1st week Nov, all following does and only 1 was approaching the "standing over" breeding activity. Once they get into that situation they have a habit of disappearing somewhere with her for 2-3 days (in other words, chances are you ain't gonna kill him).
Here at home (Indiana) I like the 2nd week of November since we do not have NEAR the competition for does by mature bucks and it seems the "following" phase is carried out by young deer, like the active chasing part, then the older ones move in and pick up the does when breeding is imminent. I take my chances on either catching them together before they sneak off to the bedroom, or cautiously hunting the bedroom. I don't get busted in bedding areas nearly as much here as you would in a place with a high deer population.
Short story - if I had only one week to hunt deer in the Midwest I'd plan on the first week of November, regardless of the moon....deer see in the dark anyways!! ;)
Ryan
I'm not as experienced as many here but I believe there is something to the moon position. More acitvity when the moon is overhead or under foot. When the moon is overhead during daylight hours you see more deer.
Regardless of what dates you plan in advance, murphy's law is always floating around out there.
Recall last season in the upper Midwest. Remember the "big blow" we had in late October? The one that had 30-50mph winds and lasted for like 4 days?
The one that happened on the very 4 days I planned months in advance so I could hunt every one of those days, all day?
Yeah, that big wind storm. LOL
Like John Lennon said. "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
mojostick - give me high winds and cold vs warm and calm ANY DAY
this year I should have the flexibility to adjust my hunt in Kansas based on weather - if they're calling for a super cold snap late Oct, I might jump and go, if its warm/warm the last week of Oct, first week of Nov I'll delay and wait until that cold does hit
that's the plan and again, thanks for the advice guys
I study such things for a living (how one draws reliable conclusions from observations of wildlife) and I'm with Bowwild and Ryan Rothhaar. I don't think the moon makes enough difference to be detectable in context with other influences.
Who truly knows how moon phases may inhibit or accelerate overall deer movement during peak rut in my state (KY) . . . with the modern firearms season scheduled the second and third weeks of November there's often so much havoc that, well, I'm sure you get the point. Nothing like an army of weekend warriors running the backroads and trails on ATVs to get the big bucks moving . . . the ones that are left anyway. I wonder how many are prematurely plucked from the herds before they have a chance to spred their genes. Ahh, QDM at it's best:^(
Here's an article worth the read...
vhttp://www.huntingnet.com/staticpages/staticpage_detail.aspx?id=144
Moon Phases and Deer
Many people hold the belief that moon phases are responsible for many important things talk to police officers or delivery room nurses. They will tell you people commit more crimes and high numbers of babies are born when the moon is full. Ask many hunters and they will tell you the same thing, but relate the moon phases to hunting deer. Deers' activities are tied in with lunar cycles, and as a hunter, this knowledge will come in handy. Deer will feed at certain times, move around at other times, use specific trails at distinct times. If the phase of the moon is noted, the next time that phase occurs, you will be sure to see the deer in the same place or doing the same thing. Knowing that deer will do activities because the moon is in a certain configuration, helps you tailor your movements or hunting schedules around that. For some people, getting used to the idea may be hard, because some people regard things like these as myths. But if you really stop and think about it, it does ring true. Most deer sightings occur during certain phases of the moon. Mark down the phase whenever you see deer, and you will convert your thinking into what every successful hunter already knows.
Activity Cycles
The real secret to understanding the Moon's effect on Earth's inhabitants is the fact that all living organisms great and small exhibit alternating cycles of rest and activity. These, in turn, are directly related to the Sun or Moon, or both.
For example, humans have a circadian rhythm - we wake shortly after the sun rises, and we fall asleep after sundown. Nobody has to teach us this. Our bodies respond to changing light levels by producing the hormone melatonin that causes us to become drowsy and fall asleep. On the other hand, bats, owls and some species of snakes are nocturnal - they're on an after-dark activity schedule.
And what about deer? The unique makeup of their light-gathering eyes and their weird four-part stomachs suggest they're neither circadian nor nocturnal. Some biologists classify whitetail deer as "crepuscular," or low-light creatures, but this is only partially true. Some nights herds of deer can be seen frolicking in fields, some nights they're nowhere to be found. Likewise sometimes deer are active during the day, and sometimes they're not. What gives? If you know where to look, you will notice a subtle rhythm to whitetail patterns involving the Moon. And this is what makes deer fairly predictable.
Deer And The Moon
It's important to note what happens when an organism gets out of its God-ordained rhythm: In a word, trouble. For instance, research from Harvard University involving 122,000 registered nurses dating back to 1976 revealed the perils of "shift work." Women who worked rotating shifts for six years or more experienced a 50 percent higher risk of heart disease.
Deer are no different. With its four-chambered stomach, a deer is designed to feed quickly to minimize exposure to predation, then retreat for security cover to "chew its cud." Deer must feed rhythmically or the microorganisms living in the first chamber of their stomach, the rumen, will die. Without these microbes deer won't last long, because they won't be able to digest woody fibers and food matter high in cellulose. So deer, like other species on the planet, feed on a regular schedule. Again, this schedule literally rotates around the Moon.
Each day, the Moon rises and travels across the sky above the horizon just like the sun, peaking at its midpoint before beginning to set. But unlike the sun the Moon rises a little later each day - about 51 minutes, on average. This makes tracking the Moon's comings and goings difficult and is largely responsible for keeping hunters in the dark over the years.
But that's been changing. Hunting-only lunar charts conveniently convert the Moon's overhead and underfoot positions into times of day. This is helpful information because the Moon's "overhead" position (and 12 1/2 hours later its "underfoot" position) coincide with predictable feeding times each day. Anglers have long used this lunar lore successfully, and now hunters are finding similar correlations.
How do we know this is fact and not folklore? Texas Tech University biologist Steve Demarais and whitetail management consultant Bob Zaiglin radio-collared 25 trophy bucks and monitored them from 1985 through 1987 in South Texas. The pair's extensive background enabled them to interpret and express their data in hunter-friendly terms, first published in the September 1991 issue of Buckmasters. Many insights were gleaned but one particularly stands out: Deer movements were most pronounced during the traditional hunting hours of dawn and dusk "when there was a 1/4 to 3/4 Moon." Further, the Moonless and Full Moon phases seemed to "break this pattern down."
The key variable here is Moon position: Quarter-Moons peak overhead (and underfoot) during low-light periods of sunset and sunrise. Coincidentally, bucks use the reduced light as cover and are more comfortable with their surroundings during early and late "Moon times" associated with these phases. This observation is substantiated with harvest data: Most deer registered at check stations throughout the nation are harvested during favorable morning and evening "Moon times." On the other hand, very few bucks are taken during Full Moons, largely because the Moon is directly underfoot during midday - a time when hunters are progammed into thinking they won't see many deer.
Putting It All Together
This may seem complicated but the implications are very simple. Many factors contribute to when and where deer will be active, but none are predictable ... except for the Moon. In other words, you can't count on temperature, wind, precipitation, hunting pressure (or lack of it) on any given day afield, but you can always count on the Moon to beam its coded message at predictable times. So before you head out, first find out when the Moon is overhead and when it's underfoot. Then concentrate your efforts in appropriate places at those special times.
Briefly, you can intercept a deer in one of three locations: Where it beds, where it feeds, and the in-between zone of travel corridors connecting the two. Once you know when the moon peaks, you can constuct a sound game plan to put you in the right place. After all, being in the wrong place at the right time isn't any better than being in the wrong place at the wrong time! For this reason, be especially sensitive to early morning and late afternoon "Moon times" that allow you to hunt food sources, since they're a lot easier to identify than bedding areas. Which is the main difficulty of midday "Moon times": Deer will be bedded down when the Moon's urge to "get up to feed" hits, and they won't venture far from security cover to feed. Moreover, if you attempt to set up near a field edge for an afternoon hunt, few deer will make before dark during this phase (remember, the next Moon time is at least several hours away).
The more we learn about the Moon, the more we learn there's so much more to learn. Just recently, for example, we've compiled data that allows us to predict whitetail rutting dates. Naturally, the intervening variable that causes the rut to fall early some years and late others is - you guessed it - the Moon. No wonder the Moon has fired man's imagination over the centuries. Underestimating its profound influence is like looking through the telescope from the wrong end.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Mojo...funny you should say that.
Here's what I've found over the years...
Yes...the rut is wild n wooly in November...here in N GA most of the chasing is the last two weeks of November...sometimes the 2nd and 3rd week. The last weekend in Oct is a GREAT weekend to hunt as the bucks are 'bird dogging' sent trails and they seem 'dumb as a box of rocks' walking and trotting along with their nose to the ground. I've had them bought bump into me during that pre-rut phase.
However, there seems to have been a change over the last 5 years. Still wild n wooly in Nov....but stronger Dec ruts and the evolution of January ruts.
Use to be the horns fell off the bucks in early Jan....now bucks are still toting racks in March...and tiny fawns being seen during the season.....not just the beginning, but in the later part of the season...meaning they were born July / August.
I hunt in central Louisiana and we are seeing the same thing Terry. When I started hunting, Thanksgiving weekend was THE weekend to go to deer camp. The past few years it is getting later and later. So late in fact that in our area, we are forbidden to take does until after October 15th (our archery season opens Oct 1st). The main purpose is to give a few more weeks of time to the fawn. In fact, on our lease, we have fawns on camera with spots into November, so we always wait for several minutes to make sure the does do not have young ones in tow even after Oct. 15th.
We now see the main chasing at the end of our archery season which is mid to late February with a lot of the breeding taking place outside the hunting season.
From my understanding and having had a great relationship with my local DNR deer biologist, what you guys are likely seeing with the "new" very late ruts is likely more of a warning sign than a good thing.
When herds are balanced and in check population wise, you usually have a shorter, more intense rut. When the female population grows and grows, having more and more female fawns, then you can get very late breeding periods.
Added to the bad part is, this taxes bucks that much more, so you get even more post rut buck mortality and/or poor condition, and the cycle gets worse.
In many parts of the country, deer populations have really grown since say 1980. With that growth comes major issue's. Too many doe's, too many fawns, etc.
Without knowing the particulars of each of your guys area's, just by reading off the top, you guys may need to take more doe's, not less. And instead of being forbidden to take doe's until a certain date, one might consider a prohibition on taking bucks, until a certain quota of breeding females are killed.
Again, that's just off the top. But what you guys describe isn't unique. And typically, what you guys describe comes from a situation where the herds are getting too big for themselves.
It's worse in the south, where old man winter won't remove 50% of your fawn population in a "bad" winter. I don't think the southern guys have much more as far as management strategy options than cranking up antlerless kill and considering more limits on buck kill, such as antler point rules, shorter season dates for antlered bucks, etc, to keep herds in longterm check.
And you're not alone. As the trend in deer hunter numbers declines and deer herd numbers expand, these types of things are going to be the future for all of us, like it or not.
Luckily for us, shooting a big doe with a trad bow is still a thrill and I hear that them doe's taste pretty good! LOL
Here's a good read from a deer farming website. But don't be taken aback by a deer farmers advice. Deer farmers who sell estrus/rutting urine need to create a faux rut, in order to get urine prior to the season to bottle, they know what it takes to do so. They create "ruts" in late summer by manipulating light and conditions.
Here's the line about herd structure that's important...
"As well, does which have had late fawns the previous year, may not be in optimum condition to breed in the first cycle and may not come into estrus until the second cycle, in December. When this occurs, the fawns are born late again in the following year and once established, this late breeding cycle can be difficult to correct."
Here's the whole article...
http://www.deer-library.com/artman/publish/article_32.shtml
When deer breed
By James Sheret
As deer farmers, we are usually prepared for breeding far in advance of the rut, however most producers never see it happen. Perhaps it doesn't even really matter to some, but being a serious deer hunter for over 20 years, I have always been intrigued by the activities surrounding the breeding season. The best time to harvest a trophy buck is during the peak of the rut, but how do we know when that is?
We all know that deer breed in November and that fawns are born in late May or June, but to increase my hunting success, I felt compelled to pinpoint the dates and triggers more precisely. Over the years I have researched this topic and observed the deer in the wild. My findings are not based on scientific studies but more of a collection of ideas, theories and gut feelings. What I have discovered is both interesting and complex.
As deer have evolved, Mother Nature has played an important role in the timing of the deer breeding season. A properly timed rut results in a high fawn survival rate and ultimately in the survival of the species. Historically, Western Canada's climate conditions can be extreme and the deer have adapted to a narrow fawning window. When fawns are born too early, the weather conditions can still be very harsh. When fawns are born too late, they will not have enough time to build their strength for the first winter. Over the centuries, the deer have developed internal clocks to ensure fawns are born at the ideal time. This fawning window remains consistent from year to year and studies have shown that deer which are moved from one region to another will adapt to their new timing window.
The gestation period for deer is approximately 200 days and although not all fawns are born at exactly the same time, most are born within a two-week time period. So, what factors trigger the rut and the internal clocks of the deer?
I believe there are four main factors which influence the timing of the rut.
Length of the Day
Moon Phases
Weather
Herd Condition
These factors do not work independently, but when combined they trigger and determine the breeding cycle.
Length of Day
The length of the day is probably the single most overriding factor in deer breeding. It determines the ideal 200-day time frame for deer breeding and fawning. It remains constant from year to year and it becomes the deer's internal clock and calendar. The first day of summer (June 21st) has the most amount of daylight and the first day of winter (Dec. 22nd) has the least. As the length of the day changes throughout the year, the seasons also change and this triggers the deers' annual life cycle events such as shedding velvet, dropping antlers and breeding. In Western Canada this ideal time frame falls between the second and third week of November. When the deer are bred during this ideal time window, the fawns are born during the maximum survival window.
Why does light play such an important part of deer breeding? Recent studies indicate the amount of light, or lack of it, directly affects the levels of melatonin in the does. The bucks are ready to breed as early as September, however they must wait for the does to come into estrus before breeding can commence. Melatonin is a sleep inducer and in deer it stimulates the estrus levels and dictates breeding time. The more light there is, the less melatonin is produced and this, in turn, causes the does to come into estrus.
Moonlight
Daylight plays the most important role in determining the rut, however the other source of light, moonlight, also plays a role. Moonlight is the most complex and often misunderstood factor in the timing of the rut. A complete book could be written on the theories of its affect on breeding. Moonlight cannot be the single factor in determining the rut because the moon phases fall on different dates each year. Basically, the amount of moonlight tends to sway the peak rutting time from one end of the ideal window to the other.
A full moon provides more light at night, which stimulates increased deer activity, however it decreases the amount of melatonin level in the does. This lack of melatonin causes the does to come into estrus. This is the reason many believe the rut occurs right after the full moon. In ideal circumstances this is correct, however, when the full moon is later in the month, such as in 1999, the rut will occur prior to the full moon but its pulled slightly later in the ideal window. The full moon has a greater affect on breeding when it is earlier in the month than when it is later. It also determines the intensity of the rut. If the full moon falls earlier in the month, the peak of the rut will occur earlier within the ideal time window and then taper off. If the full moon occurs later, the rut will begin slower and peak towards the end of the ideal window. If the full moon occurs directly within the window, the rut will be more obvious and intense. To a hunter, this is the ideal situation. If the rut is intense, the bucks become mesmerized with only one thing on their minds. They will tend to let down their guard and become more careless in their behavior and movement. More trophy deer are harvested because of errors made on the bucks' part during this intense time, not because of the skill of the hunter.
Weather
The third factor affecting the rut is extreme weather conditions. Although this is not one of the most important factors, it can play a part. Long periods of weather that is either too warm, too cold, or too windy, can affect the rutting activity. Most breeding occurs at night when the weather is cooler and the deer are most comfortable in their winter coats. This is why it is a very rare occurrence to actually witness the breeding process.
Herd Condition
Finally, herd condition plays a role in the timing of the breeding. As deer farmers this is the only factor we have control over. Making sure the does are in the best possible condition is of utmost importance to the development of their winter coats. Without these winter coats, their chance of surviving the winter ahead is greatly reduced. As well, does which have had late fawns the previous year, may not be in optimum condition to breed in the first cycle and may not come into estrus until the second cycle, in December. When this occurs, the fawns are born late again in the following year and once established, this late breeding cycle can be difficult to correct.
In conclusion, the factors affecting the rut must all come together like pieces in a puzzle. When one or more pieces do not fit properly, the puzzle is incomplete and breeding times are altered. The biggest piece in the puzzle is the amount of light, which determines the ideal timing window. The next biggest piece is the moonlight, which pinpoints the exact time within the window. Weather and herd condition are the remaining pieces which finish the puzzle. In order to complete the deer breeding puzzle, you must have all the pieces. Under ideal circumstances, all the puzzle pieces will fit exactly. When they don't fit exactly, your herd's reproductive abilities can be adversely affected.
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Mojostick- Thank you! :clapper:
This is some awesome info. After reading this I'm all geared up to go hunting and its only JUNE!! lol
But seriously thank you for all the good info, I can't wait to try some of these theories out this winter and fall scouting!
I'm kinda with Bowwild. While the moon may play a part in the exact timing of the rut, aside from the rut, a new moon doesn't seem to result in an increase in daylight movement. Of course, animals act very different in different parts of the country.
Where I hunt, heat and barometric pressure changes are a bigger factor in daytime movement.
I would like to hunt more around the middle of the day, as I do think the deer wise up to hunter patterns and feel the need to move and browse throughout the day, but it's hard to sit all day if you have little to no deer sightings.
As has been said for Kansas, I would simply rely on the D&DH rut calendar, as a ton of people swear by it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
Stumpkiller,
You asked "when is peak rut".
There is no concrete answer because regions are different. The farther south you go, the later it gets. The amount of sunlight per day is the reason and not temps. In the north, the days get short in late October.
That's why I asked. It has to be specific to the place the hunt will be held. I know nothing of the Kansas deer or cycles. All I know of Kansas is what can be seen from IS70 driving the width of it in both directions in the summer of 1979 heading for & from California. I was paying much more attention to the girl beside me (my bride of 31 years now). ;-)
Interesting.... I'm heading back to Ill for a hunt the weekend of 5th of Nov. The area I'm hunting is heavily hunted on all sides. According to my uncle, the really big deer he sees around the place often get shot on adjacent properties during the chase phase. The rut peak is sometimes anti climatic because the big boys have been killed, well educated, or are locked down on does. They see furious activity, but its mainly smaller bucks. So... I heading there early to see what I can see. Can't wait.