Picking through my pile of broadheads, I still cant decide which way to go. I shot Woodsmans deer huntin last fall, and wasnt completely sold on them. Tough to get sharp, and dont hold an edge worth a darn. The other thing is the fine needle point you get on 'em when you sharpen, Im worried about it bending if it hits bone.
That said, I know a lot of folks have good results with them.
My other option is the old standby 2 blade. My concern with them on elk is not penetration, but bloodtrail. Elk are thick skinned, and dont always bleed well , so Im thinking the bigger hole from a 3 blade would be better.
I cant make up my mind, so any other insight would be helpful in clearing my mind. Im thinking the Woodsman, or possibly a Snuffer, backed up with a 75 or100 gr woodyweight for a total of 200-225 on the front end of a 625-650 arrow would drive through just fine. But so would a mean and nasty Zwickey.
I put a small pyramid tip on my woodsmans to prevent the tip curl.
For what its worth. I've not sent one into an animal. But most of the trad heads are far more durable than any of the BH's I've sent through animals with my mech arrow device.
A good compromise would be a 2 blade with bleeders?
I always enjoy these threads even if they are a little redundant.
Either way, shoot straight, and sharp!
Good luck!
Brian
Magnus two blade user here and never had a problem.
I've taken elk with two blade and WW heads over the years. I like the Woodsman for blood loss and penetration. If your not getting them sharp, your not doing it right. I find them extremely easy to sharpen and they hold the edge great.
Mike
My two elk were both taken with big three-blade heads, and the blood trails were fantastic.
My elk experiences were a long time ago and they were with the old Bear razor heads... They worked fine and the bow was not even fast flight. Those old yellow microflight arrows worked great and I did not know about FOC in the 1970's.... LOL
Oh yea, there was lots of blood and the longest recovery was 60 yds in open country, thank God. Shots taken were under 20 yards.. broadside with solid lung/heart hits.
Ive killed 3 elk with the magnus stingers with bleeders. Easy to sharpen and come very sharp out of the package. Great penetration and blood trails also.
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
I've taken elk with two blade and WW heads over the years. I like the Woodsman for blood loss and penetration. If your not getting them sharp, your not doing it right. I find them extremely easy to sharpen and they hold the edge great.
Mike
Same here, love the Woodsmans. You can get them hair shaving sharp, and they will hold a good edge.
Not as much experience as some guys but I have killed a couple elk with my longbow. Both elk were hit with the Zwickey 2 blade Eskimo. Both elk traveled less than 100 yds before laying down. One left a great blood trail and the other one bled very little. I think the second was more the shot placement than the broadhead. I shot him downhill and quartering away. The Zwickey did its job better than the 3 blade head I was using before.
I like the two bladers. I shot two elk with Magnus I's, one elk with a tusker concorde, and 12 elk with Zwickey Deltas.I also shot one with a Cabela's brand four blade and one with a conical pointed replaceble blade tip that I forgot the name of. If you hit them right, they will go down no matter what you use. If not, I like the extra penetration. JMHO, Gary
We've had a number of people shoot completely through elk with our Phoenix three blade head and Ryan Steadman (hardcore archery) put one completely through a moose last year. If your shooting a pretty good weight, three blades are very nice for the blood trail. That being said, I've killed more with a two-blade than a three blade. My blood trails have all been good when hit in the bottom third, not so much when hit in the middle top to bottom, regardless of broadhead. Good luck and I hope your elbow is doing well. Take care.
I have used Zwickey Eskimos for 6 traditional elk and have gotten great penetration and the bloodtrails on most have been good. I agree that the shot placement has more to do with good bloodtrails than the BH. This picture is from an elk taken with the Eskimo. You can see the right side of the bloodtrail in the pic. but there was just as much blood on the left side of the tracks.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/grndhntr/P1010260.jpg)
i shot a moose a few seasons ago with a 3 blade Razorcap (similar to the Woodsman but stainless steel). The moose took 3 steps after the shot and went down. If I could no longer get Razorcaps I would have no trouble using the new Woodsman Elite or VPA Terminators. A friend of mine who has used the original Woodsman got some of the VPA's and I was impressed with the edge he could get on them.
Would believe the elk would not like the 2 blade
and
believe the elk would like the 3 blade even less.
Woodsman elite all the way
not trying to be to critical on some very good advise, but i didn't notice any poundages given. doesn't the poundage of the arrow shot need to be considered? lower energy favors a 2 blade and higher energy favors 3 blade. but at what poundage does the 3 yield better performance over the 2 blade.
never cared for or needed three bladed bH's..
Two blade,three blade, whatever tunes well for you.Put it in the right place and no critter will go far.
Personally, I would stick with a two edge.
I have never hunted elk, but I know how a wide two edge opens up whitetails.
Any time I had less blood on the ground than I would have liked, it had nothing to do with the broadhead.
Before I was back into trad equipment, I shot a HEAVY compound, heavy arrows, and the big Thunderhead 160 three blade. Those broadheads would punch a huge hole in deer hide, but I don`t remember bloodtrails being any more noteworthy than most I get now with a Delta or Magnus-1.
Nice and sharp either one works fine .... especially when hits are where you are suppose to shoot them. :archer2:
QuoteOriginally posted by Desert Hunter:
Ive killed 3 elk with the magnus stingers with bleeders. Easy to sharpen and come very sharp out of the package. Great penetration and blood trails also.
Add another elk to the Stinger pile, mine.
Shot the moose with 60# DAS with Winex limbs, Beman MFX 340's. 29", 200 grains up front. Arrow smashed thru the big knuckle covering the heart area, cut heart, lower lungs, hit offside leg, took out a chunk of rib. Ran 3 strides and went down.
Been on enough bloodtrails w/ a 2 blade hit elk and spent alot of time on my hands and knees as well.If you have the horsepower(IMO 60lbs+).I would shoot those big old Snuffers.
Elk will go along ways on marginal hits.
QuoteElk will go along ways on marginal hits.
That is FACT, e.g., a one lung hit will result in a bad outcome for the hunter and the elk.
Major organ destruction of either BOTH lungs or heart or a combination thereof (my order of preference) by a razor sharp broadhead is necessary to put meat on the ground ethically and in a reasonable amount of time.
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
Woodsman heads would be my choice and as said before if you cant cant them to pop hair off you are doing it wrong. I have yet to see a woodsman blood trail that doesnt make more blood than most two blades. Simple math, three blades cut more than two blades bad hit or good hit.Woodsman heads have taken even the biggest of african game and at poundages most would scoff at.
Woodsman elite for me did penetration test with both and did not see any difference. Widow
After checking my Elk draw tag status in Colorado. It sure gets you fired up about getting serious in preparation for the hunt!Less than 3 months away!
Seems to me the fletching is the most dangerous part of the arrow.
Seems like the deeper the fletching goes in the quicker they fall.
What Sunshine said....there are no specs to go by...
Bow Weight....arrow weight....draw length.
BTW, the new WWs have the point pyramided and the bevels level in the package. Not that I can get them any sharper, but it just take less time and effort. I've only killed critters with the 'original'.
I also have found that the WW will penetrate as good as some of the wide 2 blades....least they did on the 3 different target mediums I tested them on.
Here's a thread for ya.....
Click Here (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=103743#000000)
I still would like to know your specs
I vote two blades. I have heard and seen first hand some marginal results with WW on solid rib hits on elk. (ask Randy Morin) I even had a grizzly 190 curl three years ago on a direct rib hit. (I one-lunged that 6 pt bull and lost him :( ). My partner hit a ducking bull in the scapula four years ago and bent an eclipse to about a 70 degree angle! Remember, a mature bull elk is a big beast. If you slip it between the ribs, probably anything will work. If you are unlucky enough to center punch an old bull's rib, I would recommend a stout, narrow two blade.
Jeff you kinda contradicted yourself there bud. You recommend a narrow 2 blade but said you had one bend on an elk rib? I know grizzlies are good head, so are a lot of other heads. After seeing the RFA 3 blade zip through a cow moose (comparible to a bull elk) I would not be worried IF you are pulling enough weight on a well tuned heavy arrow. It all boils down to what the shooter is most comfortable with, and what he/she can get sharp and how accurate they are when a big ole slobbering stinky bull screams at then from inside 20 yards. The rest is all personal preference.
I have to admit..
I've never seen a tougher looking 2 blade than an Aboyer. I have some their brown bears.
They are thick and well built, easy to sharpen..etc
I really doubt there is a much stronger 2 blade out there.
I feel the $50/3 is worth it...Though I am shooting cheaper Grizz's at deer. If I were to have a chance to step up to elk & larger with my 45# bow I'd have an arrow tipped with an Abowyer..just in case.
Might all be in my head but confidence is confidence.
BTW.. a little lead melted in the head gets them up from 175grn to 190/200 in a hurry...
I don't think you will go wrong either way. I would reiterate what wingnut said that the woodsman is very easy to sharpen and will get very sharp. I am sure there are multiple threads on how to get them very sharp. I use a 12' file mounted on a workbench. It is the easiest head to sharpen once you figure it out.
Agreed Ryan, sorry for the contradiction. That did sound confusing. Let me try again :) . I love grizzly heads and most other good two blades. I guess my point is I have seen even the best fail, because elk hide and bone is tough! The trad guys I know around here that chase elk shoot two blades (usually based on some bad experience in the past with old snuffers and WWs). I hope that's more clear. :)
That is :) Like said before, it all comes down to personal preference and what you are confident with. I am very confident in my 3 blades, but have used grizzlies on lots of stuff. Now, time to get practicing, Sept is not far away!!
A bull moose is nowhere near as hard to kill with an arrow as a bull elk. Moose go down easy.
If you hit one lung on a moose, you are likely to kill him. If you hit one lung on a bull elk, you have big, big trouble. You may find him, or you might not. But you almost certainly will not find him close.
Unless you are shooting a heavy bow (65 or more), you would be wise to get the extra penetration of a two-blade.
Yes, you CAN kill a bull elk with a three blade, and I have done it myself, but then again, my lightest bow is 75 pounds. Tip the odds a little more in your favor by going for deeper penetration.
Remember-----bull elk are the luckiest critters in the woods, and if they can make something go wrong for you, they will.
Thats for all the input, I kinda forgot I put this thread up, but glad I found it again.
For those wonderin about bow/arrow setup:
Thunderstick MOAB 56@27 Arrows- Surewoods,640 gr with 225 up front. AS of right now, Im leaning towards Woodsmans, but I'll likely have a couple Zwickeys inthe quiver too.
I fully agree that hit 'em in the right spot,it doesnt matter much. That said. I shot a bull a few yrs ago, Bear razorhead(no bleeders) I think my total arrow weight was around 550-575. Hit bone, got penetration to the back of the broadhead. Didnt bend the head, but it sure didnt get far. Hit 'em wrong, nothing good happens. He ran off in a hurry, with a bit of an attitude. Go figure.
I also beleive one must taken his effective range in consideration when choosing a broadhead arro combination.One year I was very good out to 40yrds and went w/ a 2 blade(160Ace) because of my extended range.Whether the switch would of made a difference (?) but it sure couldn't of hurt.
I did kill a bull that season,a very respectable 6x7 at 30yrds at a very quick trot(he was kinda upset w/ the bull he thought was cutt-n in on his harem),penatration wasn't a issue.
Good luck
What, if any, experience have you guys had on elk with the Simmons Tiger Shark shooting 50 lbs and up?
Joe
I shoot two blade Ace 160's. That being said, hunt with the broadhead that you are most confident with. When that moment of truth comes, confidence is everything.
2 blade? 3 blade?....they both will do the job if you are within proper range, take an ethical shot, and are competent with your bow.
I have not killed an animal with the RFA Phoenix 3 blade heads...yet. But looking at the head, how it is made out of tool steel, the dimensions and then how great they shoot they will going elk hunting with me this year! Tough heads and easy to sharpen!
I've never hunted Elk before but personally I would go with a heavy arrow and a super sharp 2 blade because if it comes out the other side then you got two hole for blood.
I can also stuff more 2 blades in my quiver, so that's a double bonus.
As said what ever you can get sharp is probably your best choice.
Stick with the three blade you have plenty of power with your setup.Stick with what you have confidence in.
Going on my first elk hunt this Sept. and been following this thread. 62# @ 29 1/4" 585gr. arrows enough horsepower for my preferred Snuffer 160's? With all the planning and preparation, what it all boils down to is your broadhead and your mettle!
What Rik said...
QuoteOriginally posted by Autumnarcher:
Picking through my pile of broadheads, I still cant decide which way to go. I shot Woodsmans deer huntin last fall, and wasnt completely sold on them. Tough to get sharp, and dont hold an edge worth a darn. The other thing is the fine needle point you get on 'em when you sharpen, Im worried about it bending if it hits bone.
That said, I know a lot of folks have good results with them.
....
woodsman's can kill any critter on north america stone dead.
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images5/tgbuff2.jpg)
woodsman's can EASILY be made razor sharp - in fact, i'll say that a tri-blade is easier and faster to sharpen than ANY twin-blade. and YES, you need to "pyramid" the needle point off when sharpening.
as showed to me by master blade sharpening guru, sensei ron @ kme ...
1. the blades must be straight and sometimes with new woodsmans there's a bit of concave showing. there are 2 basic ways to remove the concave ...
[list=A]
- use a sanding belt (table belt sanding station or a handheld belt sander that's clamped to a table top) with 120 grit or so and lay down the head so that the belt is moving from the back of the head to the point ...
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/woodsman/ww1.jpg)
... put a bit of added pressure on the tip to remove that needle point - it can be a subtle set of angles to each blade side or it can be a very chiselled pyramid look. i opt for the subtle angle (which is hard to see in the pix) 'cause i think that works best with bows 55# and under ...
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/woodsman/ww2.jpg)
- OR, you can hog the blades flat on a good mill bastard file such as a 12" grobet (also making sure to remove the needle point!) - just lay the head down flat on the file and push from the file's tip to its handle base end ...
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/woodsman/ww3.jpg)
2. after getting the blade edges straight, work the blades using that good mill bastard file ... that is, press and push the broadhead from the front of the file to the files base end. i do 5 pushes on each duo of blades, then 4, then 3, then 2, then 1. this will significantly raise a burr on the edges that can readily be felt. this head is now sharp enough to efficiently and humanely kill deer and hogs if well placed. but we can do lots better ...
3. remove the burr on the blades ... basically, this is blade stropping and can be done with a fine stone, or hard leather - i like a fine stone. the blade is
LIGHTLY pushed on the oiled stone, just a few strokes on each pair of blades.
VERY LIGHTLY. all yer doing is removing the burr which will reveal the razor's edge that's underneath ...
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/woodsman/ww4.jpg)
4. i like to do a bit of "final stropping", as ron showed me - just a few really
LIGHT strokes on a piece of corrugated cardboard ...
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/woodsman/ww5.jpg)
don't ditch the woodsman, that's a mistake imho - the big, WW thread is
HERE (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=103743)
Rob, thats for the pics. After reading a lot more input on the WW, I suspect I may not have given 'em a fair shake.
I read somewhere else here about using a mill smooth file rather than a mill bastard. The smooth is a finer cut and gets 'em all kinds of scaryt sharp. So I'll be checkin that out.
I suspect my sharpening technique needs a few tweeks, but rest assured when I turn my truck west onto highway 80, there will be some broadheads in the quiver sharp enough to scare ya.
ron @ kme sez use the coarsest file or stone possible to both set the blade angle and raise the burr. taking off the burr requires the smoothest file or stone or strop as possible, with very light strokes and pressure. he was right on, it works amazingly well and my woodsmans are incredibly sharp.
Great info Rob, maybe this needs to go in the "How- To" section.....
The KME ceramic stones that Ron is selling are the absolute bomb for finishing up 3 blade heads.
QuoteOriginally posted by Braveheart Archery:
The KME ceramic stones that Ron is selling are the absolute bomb for finishing up 3 blade heads.
+1 :thumbsup: