Trad Gang

Hey Guys,
I have never been on a guided hunt before and I have been researching alot of outfitters for Elk and bear. My question to you is how do you guys feel about a wounding policy. It just doesn't sit right with me. I have avoided all outfitters in my search that have this policy. I consider myself a good shot and only take ethical shots but I feel it would bring an unneeded pressure to my subconscious. I realize that the outfitter may feel the need to protect their resources. I know no one plans on losing an animal but it does happen. Am I missing the boat here? What are your thoughts on this topic? Please convince me either way!
 Thanks and I look forward to your response!

I think the outfittet has the right to protect the game he hunts from doofuses who would take bad shot and except the guide to work a miracle.

I have not lost very many wounded animals,but lost a few.I did not quit hunting for the year when I lost a wounded deer .That being said I will not hunt with a guide that has the draw blood and you are done policy.Just my 2 cents worth.I have only hunted with a guide 1 time and this situation did not happen as I found my bear.

what "wounding policy"?  please explain.

Are you researching guides for public land, private land, or high fence hunts?  My impression of public land hunts is that if you don't recover an animal you hope it survives and you still have an unused tag in your pocket.  I haven't heard of outfitters ending your hunt at that point, but then again I don't have much experience with that.

However, I went on one group hunt on a large fenced ranch and quickly learned it wasn't for me for a variety of reasons.  But yes, the policy there was that if you shoot an animal (draw blood / wound / kill) you pay for it, whether it is recovered or not.  Many of these places raise trophy animals, some of which they charge thousands for, and they can't afford to eat the cost of their investment if an unskilled or unethical hunter makes a bad shot.  Yes, a less than perfect shot can happen to anyone, but on a high-fence ranch there are financial consequences, and that increases the pressure, probably resulting in more bad shots.  I won't hunt on a ranch again, but I agree with their policy.  It's more of a business transaction and a paid activity than a hunt, and you're dealing with someone elses merchandise; you break, it you buy it.

I lost a big 8 pt a couple of years ago.  The locals found it an took the antlers.  Weather got hot and meat was spoiled.  I filled out the back tag and sent it in. I killed the deer but just couldn't find it.  Although I didn't pay for a guide, I felt I should at least pay with the tag.

I've hunted with outfitters that have a wounding policy.  One size doesn't fit all, and I would NOT book with anyone that had an "any hit/draw blood" policy.   I don't have any problems with a lethal hit policy.  The best you can hope for  is to have a good hunt and hopefully an opportunity.  If the opportunity comes and I blow it... well... it's on me.

I understand why an outfitter does this,but would never hunt an outfit with this rule being enforced.Like stated above,it would be added stress.
Leland

Most animals that are shot with arrows and not recovered, don't die. With guns it's different- much more wound trauma and likelihood of infection leading to death from a wound that would not be lethal with an arrow. I would avoid an outfitter that does not know this.

I can see why outfitters would have this policy,
they may get you onto game but in the end it's up to the hunter to be proficient with their bow, know when to and when not to take the shot.
Unfortunately I have heard of bow hunters hitting numerous animals on hunts and not recovering a single animal mainly due to poor shot placement.
Here in Australia outfitters usually give the "trophy fee" to the property owner what happens when the property owner finds that big buck dead and no "trophy fee" in his pocket? the outfitter looses access or it can become a trust issue.

Just my thoughts
cheers

A Car dealership doesn't allow you to pick out a new car if you lose yours on the way home?

This is an outfitters lively hood. If he has limited stand sites and someone comes into camp and wounds 3-6 bears (it can easily happen(and probably does a lot)), the next group may give him a bad name for not seeing anything (which also probably happens).

I do not disagree with their stand point!  

Nor do I disagree with yours either! I would hate to stop hunting because I lost an animal on the first day.  I would hope to be able to keep looking for it all week.

That is why we are able to make choices on where we go to hunt. Choices are a wonderful thing.

Hope you find a place agreeable with your ethic.

Hunters's Point in Portage, Maine, does not have such a policy and is one of the best bear hunts in Maine. In addition they particularly like trad bowhunters.

Just as a another bit of info when I guided elk hunters out of the 5 only ONE could hit the broadside of a barn. I got all my hunters broadside standing shots and under 100 yards to boot. Even then they could not hit the animal with a good shot. Legs blown off, stomach hits, rear flanks.
So I can understand a policy that puts some weight onto the hunters themselves to arrive able to make a good shot because there are some who won't/don't unless they are forced to somehow.

I don't think trad archers fall into this category though...

Joshua

When hunting bears in Alaska, the guide/hunter is not given the option, state law requires that if you draw blood while bear hunting you must fill your tag, rather the animal is recovered or not.

There are some hog outfitters that have this policy. I totally disagree with it(unless it's the law).

I had a friend that shot two hogs. The guides made a short attempt to look for both hogs, I told them I would stay and look for one of them. They said they couldn't leave me out there alone
in the dark(as if I hadn't hunted alone 1000 times before).
They charged him for both hogs($300).
Needless to say we didn't go back.
Can't speak about bears and elk, but most hogs not initially recovered, I believe, survive.
I DO think it negatively affects people's shooting ability(having that in the back of their mind).
I know it's their livelihood,but Guides can be selective about who they guide.
I guide fly-fisherman. The first thing I ask is, how is your casting? That determines where I can take them to fish.
On guided hunts(hogs), I am upfront with the guides that I need to get close(15 yards).
Hopefully, people hunting bears and elk with archery gear have killed a bunch of animals before booking a guided hunt.

Cyclic river, the dealership wouldn't but your insurance would in your ananolgy. Maybe outfitters that have the draw blood and done could do an insurance plan that they could offer if this happens. I guess the way i look at it is if the outfitter has a proficincy test or watches one test shoot they can usually tell what they are dealing with and can make recomendations based on that. This would force some of the yahoo's to come better prepared. As anyone reading this knows in all the excitement things can go wrong and I don't have control how hard they look for the hit critter. I appreciated all the input so far.
Rob what I mean by a wounding policy is that if you draw blood you punch your tag. I mean any blood even just a superficial cut.

I don't think it would bother me. If I were to wound an animal on an outfitted hunt the hunt would be over before I was in the right frame of mind to try again anyway. I couldn't imagine wounding something one day and having my head on straight enough to try again the next.

Don't think such a policy would bother me. If the shot is edgy don't take it.  Which should be a mind set any way.
I have lost game and was very very upset with myself over it, some don't seem to mind it much though.

Animals that are hit in the body below the spine will generally die. It can take a month but it will happen-there may be exceptions.
I think an outfitter is wise to spell it out, I'm sure they get to deal with all kinds; but forget the outfitter for a moment-what is your personal policy?

I think it's pretty tough to have a "one size fits all" rule in this case.  I can understand the position from the guides point of view, think of the incompetent shooters they must deal with at times.  On the other hand unscrupulous guides could use it as an excuse to quit early if the trail turned out to be long and arduous.  Lots of game is recovered through hard work after the shot.  Hopefully guide/outfitters that have a rule like this take the situation and circumstances in to consideration when it comes to enforcing the rule.

I wouldn't want to hunt with a rule like this over my head.  Bad things can happen to the best of hunters when shooting at live animals.  It is up to us as individuals to practice year round, be conservative in shot selection, then work our butt off to recover hit game.  Unfortunately things don't always work out.  I think the choice should then be up to the individual and their conscious as to whether they kept hunting.  I would feel terrible, but I would keep hunting.

QuoteOriginally posted by tarponnut:
...
I know it's their livelihood,but Guides can be selective about who they guide....

I can't speak to how different outfitters implement such a rule, but in my experience guiding both for elk and on wilderness river trips, outfitters just do not have the luxury of turning away clients and/or somehow screening them beyond some very basic criteria ie can you walk, can you hit what you aim at. All the people I guided for elk swore they were good shots.

Outfitting is a lot of work and nobody is getting rich. Its a tough way to make a living, as some of you know from experience. Turning away clients(business) is something that is usually  avoided, if possible.

J-

In my case it does not matter if that is the guides policy or not...

My "personal policy" is just that !... I take the shot, and make a bad hit [ body shot] on an unrecoverable animal, I consider my hunt as "over" for that species [ unless I bought a second tag before the hunt began]....

This occasion came up last year, when I made a questionable hit on a large black bear on a "spot and stalk" hunt.... Luckily for me, there were some great guys along on the hunt including Thomas Burns and Doug Krings from Montana.  Their tracking skill and persistance resulted in my recovering a fine trophy the following morning...

Immediately after making the shot and failing to find the bear after 5 hours looking on my own, I passed up two more opportunities on large boars, while returning to the beach to be picked up and returned to the boat for the night.  This occured  after vocally saying to myself "I have taken a bear,[ recovered or not ] and the state does not owe me another"..

I take the lives of the animals I hunt very seriously and those are self imposed rules that I choose to hunt by.

Everyone is free to feel and hunt as they choose. However, a  policy like the one by guides and outfitters as stated above would be OK with me.

Gene Carroll    :wavey:

QuoteOriginally posted by Robhood23:
Cyclic river, the dealership wouldn't but your insurance would in your ananolgy. Maybe outfitters that have the draw blood and done could do an insurance plan that they could offer if this happens. I guess the way i look at it is if the outfitter has a proficincy test or watches one test shoot they can usually tell what they are dealing with and can make recomendations based on that. This would force some of the yahoo's to come better prepared. As anyone reading this knows in all the excitement things can go wrong and I don't have control how hard they look for the hit critter. I appreciated all the input so far.
Rob what I mean by a wounding policy is that if you draw blood you punch your tag. I mean any blood even just a superficial cut.

I was thinking about the insurance policy idea myself. There is a million ways you could figure one out on any hunt.   :thumbsup:

My personal opinion is if I were to hit and wound an animal I wouldn't consider my hunt over, unless it was the law. I lost a doe 2 years ago and fell horrible but picked myself up and made a great shot the next day on a different doe. If I paid thousands of dollars for a hunt and just clipped a leg and that animal is not going to die. I would feel terrible but picking yourself up after a poor shot shows alot of character. Why not just end the hunt after a miss? Not trying to start anything bad here just trying to figure it out. Great discussion guys ande i do appreciate all the input from everyone!

The thing that bothers me about a wounding policy is the outfitters amount of effort to find an animal.
There could be a situation where an outfitter is lazy, considers an iffy shot too much work to track and deems the hunt is over.

I've had to track deer on my hands and knees for 100's of yards finding pin drops of blood. If you know the arrow went into major organs, the animal will die. Patience and persistence is what it takes but some outfitters might not have that.

 Most ethical hunters hate wounding critters.  I would be entirely unhappy if I went thousands of miles and dollars just to have to go home. God makes more and if game animals were endangered, we wouldn't be able to hunt them.

There is a fine line though when it comes to hunters who aren't prepared. If I were an outfitter, and a guy wounded two animals and clearly isn't prepared, I would call off the hunt. Catering to lazy hunters wouldn't be my style!

LECarrol - cool on that

ncrecurve - dude funny made my day

We DO have a wounding policy but not getting into it here. I would avoid working with someone unduely focused on this issue.

Outfitters: They ALL should from what I have seen. Yes Eldon is the best and works right around the issue - but the two biggest areas I see abuse are Whitetails and Africa. Not sure what the percentage is - half the guys - more or less - but a huge number just aren't good enough and expect trackers and outfitters to close the deal many cannot start effectively. Like my "brothers" say - "we want 100% success" --- "NOT 150%!!!"
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I am pretty strict with myself about this. Fortunately I've never lost one, but I almost did. I was up all night looking for it and finally found it. It really upset me. I know there will happen sooner or later.

So I guess I would just consider it in the selection process when I was hiring the outfitter. It's not like your hunt is risk free. If you're hunting fair chase, you always run the risk of never getting a shot. You pay for that, too.

I can see both sides of the coin.  

I've only paid for a guided hunt once. That was in Africa. It was understood that you paid for the animal if you drew blood. I was ok with it. I recovered everything I shot. The guides and trackers will work very hard for you...my hunting partner made a bad shot and tracked a Kudu for a looong ways. Finished it with a gun. Wouldn't have happened without the trackers and guides.

In Texas, there isn't much public land to hunt so I lease 2000 acres low fence with a group of guys. It's bow hunting only. We have a surplus of does, management bucks, hogs, and turkeys. If you draw blood and don't find an animal it stinks but you don't burn a tag. With mature bucks (what we're calling trophy bucks) it's a different story. We only have a few of these each year...if you wound one, that's your buck for the year. You're not allowed another "trophy" until you see you see your buck alive or someone else kills him. This is a rule we impose upon ourselves.

There are two sides and understandably, most folks on hear are ONLY looking at it from the hunters side. Looking at it from the guide/outfitter side is totally different. For one thing, there are lots of BAD hunters and the good outfitters, want to weed them out, having a wounding policy most of those guys that just want shoot until they get lucky, will go somewhere else, usually the bad outfitters! One outfitter friend of mine had ONE guy gut shoot THREE BIG whitetail bucks and I mean record book bucks, what do you do, just keep letting him shoot? When I am guiding, I will look for a wounded animal for DAYS, but some hunters, don't want THEIR hunting time wasted, looking for wounded animals, they just want to go shoot more. In my experience the outfitters with a formal wounding policy are only doing it because its best for BOWHUNTING or hunting in general, not because they want to.

My 17 year old daughter just shot a very large bear in Manitoba. I video'd the hunt and have the shot and hit well documented. The shot was very close to where most of us would consider a perfect hit. She was shooting a 50# old Bear Grizzly and it just didn't have enough uummpphh to punch all the way through the big bear and get an exit hole. There is no doubt in my mind that the bear is dead. We could not find it. She was devastated and the tears just flowed. This was the 2nd day of a 5 day hunt. The outfitter would have very likely allowed her to keep hunting. That would have been disrespectful to the animals and to some of my fellow traditional hunters coming to hunt this week. She did everything exactly right and things still didn't work out for her. She said she would feel horrible if she kept hunting. She said she could possibly be shooting a bear that one of the other guys might have a chance at in a following hunt. She didn't want to do that to them. Also, just think how horrible she would feel if she hit and lost another animal.  We know lost animals happen, but if you kill an animal you should be done hunting them if that fills your limit. We need to be responsible for our actions and respectful to animals and other hunters.  It shouldn't matter if it was a fully outfitted very expensive hunt or out your back door. Trust me as a dad, I would've loved to have her keep hunting and be successful, but it just wouldn't have been right. It was a very long 2,000 mile drive home.

I can see where they are coming from. you broke it you brought it! It should not be that way for hogs thought.but a bear or a deer I understand.

I just read your story, my heart goes out to your daughter. Did your outfitter use trail camera's. Would he have let her hunt the same bear. What if that bear showed up on a trail camera on a different or same bait? I have seen some animals that anyone would have bet would be dead show up again. I was with my brother once who hit a nice buck that we both though would be dead at the end of a short bloodtrail only to see that same buck chance doe's the next day. Reason I ask is it is not totally unheard of that the bear could have returned to the bait in the next day or two. Tell your daughter to keep her head held high!

Robhood23, I'm sure he would've let her keep hunting the same stand. We never even considered that the bear wasn't dead. I don't think her heart was much into it after not finding the bear.

i hear you bro! Again I feel so bad just reading your post!
Where did you shoot that moose in your avatar! Love the pic!

I shot a buck two years ago and minutes after the shot it started to rain very hard.  I decided not to wait and got down from my stand and started to track.  I had good blood for the first 15 yards into a cornfield but then the blood ran out, or was washed away.  I spent the next four hours looking and came back the next morning and looked until noon.  It was very thick where I was hunting and I found my buck at noon.  I had made a perfect quartering away heart shot.  My point is even with a perfect shot things can go wrong; like unexpected rain.  I would not hunt with an outfitter that has this policy but I do understand their side.  There are lots of guys hunting that don't put in the practice time necessary to make the lethal shot.

I wonder if the guy that shot this deer stopped hunting, or thought he killed it, or whatever. I know in Africa that you have to pay when you draw blood. But, this is not Africa and I know of countless situations where deer have been shot and found to have broadheads imbedded in some bone....usually the shoulder.

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Arrowworks/Wounded2.jpg)

IMHO, I think it comes down to the "ownership" of the animal.
If I were to hunt in Africa or a highfence hunt, the landowner most often "owns" the wildlife on it.

In the US, we the people "own" the wildlife, and we allow the state to govern the taking of the wildlife.  If I go on a public land hunt using a guide, I'll be damned if I am going to pay for a wounded animal that the outfitter has no "ownership" of.  I even object to a private-land free-range animal policy of pay if you wound it.  It is my belief, that landowner does not "own" that wildlife.

Of course, I would never book a hunt with a outfitter that has that type of policy in the first place.  

This is hunting and wounding does occur.  If you have been at this for any length of time and have not lost an animal, you are either very lucky or have not shot many animals, because you will at some point wound something.  

I will get off my soapbox now

Indianabowman sorry to hear about you daughter losing the bear but I think a few more adults should have the same attitude about their actions.

I had a moose outfitter tell me about a guy who hunted for a week (on a videoed hunt) and wounded four or five moose before finally killing one (not counting some missed shots).  That ought not to be allowed.  I can see maybe letting a guy go for one more if after all reasonable effort has been made an animal is not found, but not that many.  I have no problem with a reasonable wounding policy that recognizes that stuff happens under the best of circumstances.  I know on public land the animals do not belong to the outfitter, but he has the right to say "your hunt with me is over" at some point.

IMO, it does NOT come down to who "owns" the animals, an outfitter may spend weeks or even months preparing for the season, scouting, building blinds, putting out stands, setting up camps, training guides etc.. There are no limitless numbers of trophy animals anywhere and the outfitter quite probably has thousands of dollars invested in the hunting area. So when someone shows up and obviously dosn't care how many animals they shoot or wound, it isn't going to sit well. The guides and outfitters want happy customers and good hunters make their job easy, bad hunters make a miserable camp for everyone. I've worked for outfitters on private land and they had to pay a trophy on every animal hit, they had no choice, but to pass that along. Every hunter has the option to go where they want, BUT to me a wounding policy, in writing is evidence that they are serious and ethical. Any outfitter that tells me they care how many animals I wound, I won't be going there, obviously they don't care about hunting or ethics. I've had hunters that I specifically and repeatedly told to do or not do something and they did it anyways and resulted in a wounded and lost animal. I've WATCHED a hunter gut shoot a big boar hog and then deny he even shot and refuse to waste "his" hunting time looking for it. Remember it takes that guide/outfitter just as much effort and sometimes more to have you shoot and wound an animal as it does to drop it perfectly. Having said all that, things do happen even to the best of hunters and in my experience, guides/outfitters sometimes make exceptions, even when its not deserved.

There are some " hunters" that will fling an arrow at any animal they see.  that could really be a problem for an outfitter.    I've mostly seen the policy with private land guides and it usually says, if you fatally wound and animal and it isn't recovered your hunt is over.  I have always thought if the animal is fatally wounded and not recovered it's probably the guides fault.  If it's dead and he can't find it, isn't he supposed to be able to track?

Its a like a 5 sided Coin.
Its depends on a lot of things
were your hunting, what your hunting etc etc

Iv grown up in the hunting Industry seen, accompanied and guided more hunts then i can accurately remember. Iv also been a quit a few guided hunts, So it good to see it from both perspectives.
If the wounding policy is the only thing you consider when picking an outfitter then your really missing the bigger picture, there are many things i would be considering before that.

Like Rick was saying, you get a few hunters that are just bad, don't care about the animal and just shoot until something hits the deck, believe me iv seen some disgusting things in the field.
Unfortunately there are more then id like to admit.
 Look you get the hardcore good hunters that are really good, you get the good hunters that every now and then just get unlucky or make a bad shot (it happens to everyone its just a matter of time) and you get a lot of guys that love to hunt but dont have much time to practice or have the time to scout and hunt public land etc so they pay for a guided hunt, which would prob be the only hunt of the year for them.

due to a combination of factors you get a Lot of guys that are just poor shots, You get great shots, that suck on live animals, and only get a handful of consistently good shots on game.

you can not just have someone out there wounding animals.

There are also a lot of places that have a wounding policy that is not strictly enforced, Its is there to keep away the yahoo hunters. But it can be a can of worms making the decision.

It come more down to the individual, make a bad shot and are willing to put in hours-days of tracking or searching to find it, no matter the wounding policy,  most hunters will give up before the trackers. Some guides are lazy and will push you to quite and keep hunting something else, more you kill = more $  

what if you owned a property and the animals on it, you had a hunter come and gut shoot a trophy animal, you do everything you can to recover it but never find it. Would you charge the trophy fee?

"I know on public land the animals do not belong to the outfitter, but he has the right to say "your hunt with me is over" at some point."

I absolutely agree.  The outfitter has every right to end hunt at this point.  And so does the outfitter on private land.

But I still stand on my principal that a  outfitter does not "own" that animal, they are only providing a service of the hunt and the amenities that surround that.

We do not have the draw it you bought policy. But i think i would have a talk with the hunter if they wounded a second one.Wounding an animal stinks, Bit it happens! We can not controll everything, Your shoting a man made weapon at an animal that can move jump and shift. We had 3 wounded bears last fall and one the year before, well later last season we killed 3 out of 4 of those wounded bears! All were hit with arrows. One was graze on the top of the back. And the other 2 were hit high with little penitration.So they can live.All of these bears were feeding back on the baits. Just some thoughts!

I apologize, after rereading the initial post, I was assuming trophy fees were being charged for a wounded animal.

If hunting on public land, or on animals that come from public land, I don't see where the guide has any more obligation to protect "his" resources than the next guy.
If he is charging you to guide and you make an ethical shot, he is as responsible as you to recover the game, or at least put you in the position to finish the job.
Some of these "guides" are only in it for the profit, the more hunters, the more profit.  If you are not hunting penned animals,(not hunting IMO), that were bought and paid for buy someone, they are making money from you on both ends.
Nothing wrong with using a guide, but do your home work.

In the USA on Public land where the tag is yours its a different story im sure.

I do wonder (non guided) over there how many guys repeatedly wound animals and dont do everything they can to find them, on the same tag.

Pepper don't forget though there are as many hunters out there just in it for themselves and more then happy to screw the guides over.

On a Colorado elk hunt, I glanced an arrow off the back of a bull, and drew some blood. Later in the hunt, I killed a 4 pt. bull. If the outfitter had had the wounding policy, my hunt would have been over after the first hit. The bull wasn't hurt much, and I was comfortable with the outcome. Each situation has to be judged on its merits. A drawn blood policy is just not reasonable without taking the situation into consideration.

I would agree with a skill test to make sure you are proficient with your weapon but I don't agree with a wounding policy.  Not finding an animal is part of hunting.  It sucks and no one wants it to happen but it can.  Then again if you are paying for a guide it is clearly an optinional choice and you must play by their rules.

QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
On a Colorado elk hunt, I glanced an arrow off the back of a bull, and drew some blood. Later in the hunt, I killed a 4 pt. bull. If the outfitter had had the wounding policy, my hunt would have been over after the first hit. The bull wasn't hurt much, and I was comfortable with the outcome. Each situation has to be judged on its merits. A drawn blood policy is just not reasonable without taking the situation into consideration.

I agree with Mr. Stokes, some common sense has to be part of the decision.  The slightest nick from a sharp broadhead can leave a lot blood.  I would hate to have my hunt called short due to a superficial flesh wound.  If the hit is somewhere in the main torso of the animal, different story.

Most outfitters are just guiding and assisting in recovery and processing of the trophy...they don't own the game you hunt. If they own it and are feeding it then it's not a real hunt to me...it's target practice on livestock..

I wouldn't hunt with an outfitter that had such a policy

"Most animals that are shot with arrows and not recovered, don't die."

I could not disagree with you more. You hit a deer it dies of infection or is taken by predators, period. I have seen more dead deer walking with chunks of rotten flesh falling off them and found more buck skeletons then I care to remember, all from bad bow shots. That being said, that kind of thing is bound to happen. Every hunter is entitled to a bad shot and a lost kill but there comes a point, if you are hitting deer and not recovering them, its time to go back to the drawing board, or stick to rifles.

And I would not hunt with a guide who has that rule.

I've never hunted with a guide, much less one with this type of policy.  If I did I would expect my outfitter to have some excellent trailing dogs.  Many times "Lucy" has brought back ducks, doves, quail & rabbits that I thought I missed.  

After seeing many broadhead wounds I expect most of the deer hit and dismissed as "OK" are dead at the end of a 20 minute dog trail.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but if I put an arrow or a bullet in it, that was my tag.  I was responsible for the shot and I bought the tag.  
For me there's no gray area.
I was taught it's NOT OK to TAKE a bad shot, but it's OK to MAKE a bad shot.  In other words, you do your best to prepare and you take shots you're VERY certain will kill quickly and cleanly.  If for some reason you don't connect or you make a bad shot you analyze what happened, learn from your mistake and change your behavior.  If you shot an animal poorly, you tracked the animal until you found it, then changed your habits so you were a better hunter.

Bucksbuouy, I was quoting Dan Quillian about arrow wounds. I figured he knew what he was talking about. Deer have an amazing ability to recover from clean wounds.

And I have to add that I've killed several deer with healed wounds, from both bow and gun. Sure, a gut-shot deer will probably die and might not be recovered, but muscle hits will heal if the deer doesn't lose enough blood to kill it quickly. In my early years, the first four deer I killed had been shot previously and healed.

I once shot a 6 point whitetail that had been shot twice in the head before I killed it. It was blind in one eye, and after the skull was cleaned I found that a bullet had gone through the eye and out the mouth, taking a couple of teeth out. The other wound was a few weeks old, and a fully expanded bullet was under the skin of its muzzle, right behind the nose. Another club member had shot and lost the buck, so I know how old the wound was. He appeared to be doing fine, but I took a lot of ribbing about having to shoot a buck that was half blind and couldn't smell me, either!    :)

I also killed a spike buck that had been shot in the back of the head with an arrow, and it had a perfect X through one ear. The arrow hit the back of the head and the scar was at least a year old, perfectly healed. It must have been shot as a fawn.

I have mixed feeling on this. I was on a bear hunt and a guy shot a bear what he told the guide was a hard quarting away and maybe a little far back and not a pass thru. We looked the next day for less then 2 hours and the guide and outfitter both qiut looking and said wonded bear your done hunting. Needless to say I won't be going back their. To look for less than 2 hours shows no respect to the bear or the hunter.

doug77

I have never been on a guided or outfitted hunt. I'd like to someday because for a couple of critters I'd like to hunt that's the only legal way to do it.

I would simply check out the vendor's rules and decide up front if I could live with them.  If I couldn't I'd shop elsewhere.  

I don't think it would be fair to argue a known rule after-the-fact.

i am all for a wound policy with one exception, i don't want a guide telling me when we give up looking for an animal or charge for glancing hit.  i would happily pay a wound fee or eat my tag on any guided hunt if i was confident it was a solid hit and EVERY effort was made to retrieve my animal.  a wound policy is mainly to deter hunters from taking unethical shots. i've been on many guided hunts and have seen too many hunters take shots outside thier effective range or skill level because "its the biggest buck i've ever seen" or "i didn't pay all this money to come home empty handed".  you should understand all guides policies BEFORE you book a hunt.  i understand that unforseen circumstances happen resulting in a wounded animal at times but through practice, patience, and discipline to take only a shot that you have 100% confidence in, the chances of you wounding an animal is extremely minimal.  if all hunters had a "wound policy" mentality at all times, i bet there would an extremely high rate of recovered animals.  be confident and shoot straight!

I`m not a "pro" guide but I tell anyone hunting with me to SHOOT if they have a shot. There is enough pressure on a fella as it is. I consider myself a good tracker and find some critters that folks have given up on.I don`t make a living at it and only take friends and St. Judes Winners that become friends.I`ve killed many deer and pigs that have been shot with all kind of weapons and lived.If you waited on a "perfect" standing broadside shot on everything where I hunt you would`nt shoot much.Take shots you feel you can make and we`ll do our best to find it. If we don`t after a satisfied effort we will go hunt another.RC

I know Terrys daughter Jen and she is a fine young lady and I respect her decision, my problem is the wounding policy with knowledgable hunters. I am sure Terry knows this bear was dead and Jen too and thus made an informed decision, but what about the guy or girl who has a deer jump the string and slices the deer across the backstraps, or shoots low on a bear at a bait and knows he only clipped the front leg. It is lousy for this person to travel maybe thousands of miles to have to end their hunt on shots like these. I understand both sides but as a guide or outfitter I would also hope I could judge people pretty quickly and take their word on the hit and than go from there. I myself lost quite a few animals when I first started big game hunting, due to being young and impatient and a host of other things, but even than usually new if the hit was fatal or not. Now with my years of experience I can almost always tell if my hit was fatal unless it is a fluke or I honestly did not see where the arrow entered. This may upset some people but bears over bait is one area where I may see this wound policy in use, as most guys should be effective enough shots to put an arrow in the boiler room at 10-15 yards. Can a bad hit still happen? Yes but the odds are in the hunters favor in this instance. Book with whoever you feel comfortable with, whatever their policy. Shawn

As with anything that sort of hits on the political side you will always have strong opinions one way or another. That's why even in organizations such as bow clubs differences in members opinions sometimes get in the way of the main goal. That is to just have fun. You saying the policy puts an undo pressure on you is your doing not the policy. You have not even reached the point of going on the hunt and its causing a problem in your subconscious. No one wants to intentionally wound an animal but it happens. If any one says they have never they either have not bow hunted very long or are liars it happens.

Having guided back country elk hunts for archery elk I have seen many things happen some not very fun. Guided rifle hunts gets even more scary. This policy is kind of a blanket policy. In saying that you never know what kind of hunter you may have in camp. Believe me there is all kinds. You may be the most ethical hunter there is but we don't know that and some people are not. It would not really matter if you knew every body personally the policy I feel still needs to be in affect. The reason being for elk is the resources no matter how good are limited. Wounding animals whether they live or not will cut down the quality of the area. Where I guide up against The park up in Montana the herd is pretty good but we have wolves to deal with. Any animal that is hurt or slows up will probably not have a good chance of healing and surviving.

When people come out west to hunt they are concerned with physical conditioning and shooting well up and down hill. These are important but two other very important if not the most important topics are over looked. I put learning anatomy and mental conditioning at the top. I believe education can limit wounded animals and I believe it should be on the top of an outfitters list. Who cares what kind of boots to wear when mentally your not prepared and you don't know anatomy. You may have shot many a critters but when mister bull comes in on you and takes a leak in your lap and you did not mentally prepare for it ahead of time you will have problems. Why do you think the military has boot camp its a lot of mental preparedness.

I will give some insight of what has happened in the past and why these policies are in effect. We have 5 hunters in camp at a time all 1 on 1 guided hunts. It was the 3rd week of Sept. the elk where hot every one was in elk. On the same day we had 3 hunters connect and not one animal recovered. I was one of the guides who's hunter wounded an animal. He was a accomplished hunter had killed an elk with his bow in the past. I was directly behind him so close I could touch him. Animal turned broadside 15 yards away he drew took careful aim hit where he was aiming he just shot him in the shoulder blade. I seen it all and we had very minimal penetration. The hunter was convinced he made an excellent shot and even told me I may have not seen correctly for he felt he had pass through. I believe the other two hunters took frontal shots. We spent days looking and never found them. I did catch a smell from one of them about 5 days latter. But I would not go through the dark timber looking because of grizzlies. This was a terrible shame that I feel could have been prevented through education. You will on occasion get a hunter that wants to go home with something so bad he takes risky shots. But these where good guys they just did not come prepared. If we let all these guys go after more elk we could have easily had a half dozen animals with arrows in them. If you where scheduled the following week for your hunt and you new a half dozen elk had been wounded would you be concerned? If it where me and I new I would want a full refund. Where not dealing with a disposable resource here and outfitters treat it as such.

 I feel that if it where me I would want to go with the outfitter who has the policy. I think you will have a better chance at a quality hunt. The outfitter that states he has that policy has taken a measure to insure he gets quality hunter. I know it would be hard to punch a tag on a grazed animal but that has not happened yet and your putting undo pressure on yourself. Educate yourself the best you can practice mentally and physically and just go have a good time. Pick your outfitter not by that policy alone but that he meets your other more important requirements. I did not mean to drag this out but I hope it sheds some more light on the subject.
Thanks Scott

Well said, point well made and taken.  :campfire:    :coffee:

I have hunted all over the world and only in Africa with a game scout present have I seen them enforce a blood on the ground tag used policy.  Most guides I have hunted with here in the US have been more than fair about not ending a hunt if a wounded animal could not be recovered in fact once in NM I wounded a large elk the guide said after 2 days of looking we could move on but I choose to not stop looking and spent the rest of my time searching.

To expect a guide to look the other way would be wrong

Bowhunting and wounding animals goes hand in hand that is why you should choose your shots wisely and hunt with outfits that cater to bowhunting

I can only see 2 reasons for an outfitter to have/enforce a wounding policy:

1) He outright owns the animals.

2) He is morally or ethically opposed to continuing the hunt after an animal is wounded and not recovered.


I'll likely never hunt with someone who owns (as personal property) the creature I'm after, so I'm unaffected by that.

As far as morals and ethics go, all you need do is find an outfitter who's beliefs match your own. Easy enough.

Where I DO have an issue would be with an outfitter who looks at wildlife as his lunch ticket. If he's "protecting the resource" to protect his pocketbook, that is a selfish motivation.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:

...Where I DO have an issue would be with an outfitter who looks at wildlife as his lunch ticket. If he's "protecting the resource" to protect his pocketbook, that is a selfish motivation.

Of course they are protecting their pocketbook and guiding IS their lunch ticket.

All the outfitters I have worked for or know are pretty good people and I never met any that were doing anything else other than the best they could to make a living and feed their families. Long hours etc...
Maybe some outfitters are not very ethical in how they apply a wounding policy but why focus on the  poorly run operations when so many are run well.

Repeat business is a very big deal in the guiding world and the successful outfitters don't do things that put off clients, like enforcing a wounding policy in a thoughtless way.

I think some of you are missing the point too. Many hunters do not come prepared. Regardless of how you approach hunting preparedness, when a business taking people out into the woods there is no way to know what will happen out there.

J-

Very well said Scott  :thumbsup:  Nicely done!!

Tracy

I have no problem as long as it is stated up front in writing. I went on a kansas deer hunt and the policy was if you wounded an animal you had to pay $1,000 to keep hunting if the animal was not found. Seemed very fair to me and was stated up front. Where i go hog hunting in Florida they have a wounding policy where you pay thetrophy fee if you wound a hog and my friends and i don't have a problem with it and think it is a good idea so people wait for the shot and not shoot up the place since he is loaded with hogs. This outfitter goes the extra mile trying to find your hogs too and we have not lost many due to his and our diligence. If you just graze a hog he will not charge you for it which is more than fair.

I think it's a fair question for a guide to ask a prospective client about his/her effective shooting range.
Every client should ask about the wounding policy of the guide before the hunt.
For hogs at least, I won't hunt with an outfitter that has a "wounding policy"(blood drawn equals dead hog).

How many animals should a hunter be permitted to wound before you say, "no more"?  I think this applies not only to guided hunts but to friends that you let hunt your own property.  I'm willing to give friends one mulligan, but any more wounded deer after that and I'm telling them they are done.  I work hard to manage the deer on my property and am not willing to let someone wound an unlimited number of deer.  I'm not so sure I want someone to hunt on my property if they don't offer to punch their tag after wounding multiple deer on my place.  It shows a lack of respect for the deer and the property I am managing.

Outfitters with wounding policies have an obligation to make certain all hunters are aware of the policy prior to booking anyone.  It seems most Canadian outfitters are going to wounding policies where you are either done or pay a penalty fee if you continue hunting after a wound.  Most will tell you it is the guide's call and if they are certain the wound was superficial will give you a second chance.

Whether just or not, in most instances, the animal takes the real loss.

The pain I experience from an unrecovered animal is far greater than any trophy fee. If it wasn't, then I should not be signing up for such a hunt and should refocus on the value of these animal's lives before pursueing them on any type of hunt.

**I have spent more time searching for a lost arrow than I have painfully witnessed others pursue wounded game. Without these wonderful creatures, my spirit will die. These values are my own and are not intended to be imposed on anyoneelse.**

I've hunted Africa where blood equals paying for the animal and I regularly hunt a pig operation in Texas that has one pig a day limit and if you wound one it counts as your daily pig.  I have no problem with either policy.  I'm responsible for my shot and responsible for recovering the animal after I loose an arrow.  If I don't do my job it's not up to the outfitter to take the hit it's all mine.

I've punched elk and deer tags over the years when I didn't recover an animal that I knew was dead.  It' part of the game to take responsibility for your actions.  

So if you have a problem with an outfitter that counts a wounded animal as dead, then don't hunt with them.  But also don't ask to hunt with me.

Mike

100% with wingnut. If I shoot it it is mine whether I can find it or not is on me

Deer have no better ability to recover from injuries then people do. Mammals in general are remarkably similar on the anatomical level. In fact the unsanitary environment that they live in only serves to promote infection and bacteria growth in wild animals that are injured. I dont want to start an argument but I live and hunt in an area with high densities of both deer and hunters and Ive seen and heard so many HORROR stories about injured deer. Like I said, its bound to happen, and its ok, but lets not kid ourselves. If a broadhead goes through some flesh, there is a good chance Bambi's gonna bite it.

Scott- You make a lot of sense my friend. Thank you.

If I made a bad hit on a animal such a shoulder or any other shot that I felt was a nonlethal hit I'd like to keep hunting to see if I could get another shot at that animal. If I felt the animal was laying dead from the shot then I would like to spend the rest of my time in camp looking for it. That's what I do at home and if the outfitter didn't agree with that I wouldn't book a hunt with them. I'm kind of hard headed and set in my ways and I don't need a outfitter telling me what is ethical. I wouldn't force my thoughts them either, just wouldn't book with them but don't hold it against them for the rules they set.