If I paper tune from 10 feet with 145 grain points, they tear nock right, about a 1 inch tear. If I use 175 grain points, they shoot bullet holes.
If I go back to 15-18 yards, the arrows are a little nock left when they go in the target. Previously, the arrows with 145 grains were a bit nock right in the target.
Would you add 10-20 grains only and try again?
Let me add this. When I bareshaft tune, my arrows always group together. No difference with or without feathers. The only thing different is the bareshafted arrow is more nock right as it sticks in the target.
If it were me,I would just try one or two shafts with the extra weight for a comparison.
i think yer doing just fine and wasting time punching paper instead of critters. :D
It depends what you mean by "a little" :) If it is about 1/4 inch at 15 yards, then do what Rob says! If it is more, then perhaps do some weight tuning, although I am no expert!
Best tuning sessions for me is to just shoot a bunch of different arrows with someone else watching arrow flight. Pick the one they SEE flying the straightest, done. You will get different presentations from different differences because the arrow is still oscillating at those short distances.
Unless you have the brace ht and silencers "dialed in" you could fiddle with those a bit. Soem people do that first and then refuse to move 'em. Good luck - and enjoyh the tuning
mg
The final step in bare shaft planning is how do the fletched shafts group compared to a big broadhead. www.bowmaker.net (http://www.bowmaker.net)
Bowmania
Thanks guys. I forgot to mention, when I did broadhead tuning with lower weight they flew the same and hit the same spot. I think I better put some broadheads on and recheck.
Dang edit function.....
The only reason I upped weight after that is I didn't like the right kick I was getting. Don't know if I should of just ignored it. Comparing my arrows with Stu's Calc, they're way off.
You mentioned earlier that you also tuned with bare shafts. What distance was that at?
I tried up to 18 yards (size of backyard). Before I added weight, they would wag back and forth all the way to the target, but they would impact the same spot as fletched arrows. Stu's calc said these arrows were supposed to work, but I decided to try to get rid of the wag. Don't know if I needed to do that. But from what I'd read, wagging is bad.
Frank,
I am no expert, but, the shaft can not "wag" without some form of fletching on the arrow. Bare shafts will nock plane to the right or to the left.
for a right handed, person increasing weight , if close to spine to begin with, will cause the shafts to nock plane left and hit low, right
If decreasing weight the shaft should plane nock should be right and they will hit left and high.
The weaker the shaft,ie: heavier point will increase the plane to the left.
The reverse is true to a point, depending on rest setup in relationship to center shot..
Then some shelf adjustment out will help a soft shaft, and if possible some removal or getting the shaft closer to the riser will help on a stiff arrow. AGAIN all is for a right handed shooter..
Then your release will change the tears in paper.. so enjoy that ride..
IMO you will drive yourself nuts paper tuning. I would do a search on google for " Old Adcock" That is the best tuning info I have ever found. Paper tuning is tough, sometimes i shoot bullet holes and the next it will be tares. The Old Adcock has always worked well for me.
Frank,
The wagging you saw with bare shafts was probably just the paradox. Without fletching, the shaft can paradox for quite a distance. If your bare shafts and fletched arrows are grouping together at 18 yards, you're probably in good shape.
I think you guys are right. I might be over-engineering this. I think I'll start over. I think I'll put the arrows back to what Stu's calc said and begin again. At 529 grains with my rest at - 1/16", they spine 66.2 bow and 66.7 arrow spine. Then when I went to 549 grains, my broadheads and field points grouped together eventhough the arrows nocked right a bit when leaving the bow (and the bareshaft wagged).
Come to think of it, the arrows nocked right in flight until I got up to 600 or so grains. At that point, the wagging bareshaft just flew nock right and didn't wag anymore. I'm not sure at this point why, or if it even matters.
Tuning is a funny thing. Sometimes you fall right into it, and other times it's quite a process. Either way, when you watch a spinning ball of fletching disappear through an animal, you'll know the time spent tuning was well worth it.
What would I do, you ask?
First of all, I wouldn't paper tune for trad.
I, personally, like the method O.L. Adcock uses with the bareshaft grouping with fletched arrows and broadhead tipped arrows grouping with fletched arrows way.
Click this link and then click the "bow tuning" link at the top of that page:
http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm
Also, when using Stu's calc. it is VERY, VERY important that you enter the exact measurement for center-cut or it won't work at all.
Good stuff guys. Let me explain the wagging I saw in the beginning that sent me down this path. The arrow nock would go left-right-left-right over and over again. / \\ / \\
And I mean a lot! It would move something like 4 inches to one side, then four inches to the other side. There was no circular movement, only an extreme left-right of the nock all the way to the target.
When my arrows weighed 549 grains, they bareshafted and broadhead tuned fine with Adcock's method (but had this wag). I'm going to recheck at that weight and stick with it, unless you guys think that wagging I explained above is significant.
Ok.
First, don't try and watch your arrows flying. That's a guaranteed way to screw up your shooting form and produce all kinds of weird results. You need to either:
1. Paper tune, WITH FLETCHINGS where you can look at the tear after the fact, or
2. Use the point of impact method and bare shaft
Watching your arrow is not reliable.
Looking at arrow kick in the target is not reliable.
Paper tuning and point of impact tuning will get the job done, but you have to use them as written and not halfway.
Let me ask this and it may sound dumb but it has come up on one of these threads before,were you shooting on a breezy day?
It wasn't windy. I did this over a few days. When I saw / \\ / \\ / \\
I was like, wth! Anyway, I took all my weights out, set my rest back to the beginning, and I am only going to do point of impact bareshaft tuning and leave them be. That should be at 549 grains. That's what I got before. I just find it real hard to ignore that little bit of right kick of the nock.
Well, well, well. Found my notes which said last time I tuned 559 grains was it. So, I took all the weight out which made them 529 grains. Too much to the left out to 18 yards. Tried 549 grains. Better, but still slightly to the left and bareshaft groups well. Tried 559. Hits bullseye and groups with bareshaft. At no time did I experience bareshaft waggle. / \\ / \\
Though, the bareshaft does fly nock right. But I don't care, they group at the bullseye. So, I confirmed my original test before I let the right nock bareshaft take me on a tangent.
I think I'll call myself tuned. Thanks guys!
QuoteOriginally posted by FrankM:
Well, well, well. Found my notes which said last time I tuned 559 grains was it. So, I took all the weight out which made them 529 grains. Too much to the left out to 18 yards. Tried 549 grains. Better, but still slightly to the left and bareshaft groups well. Tried 559. Hits bullseye and groups with bareshaft. At no time did I experience bareshaft waggle. / \\ / \\
Though, the bareshaft does fly nock right. But I don't care, they group at the bullseye. So, I confirmed my original test before I let the right nock bareshaft take me on a tangent.
I think I'll call myself tuned. Thanks guys!
imho, it's scary to think that 30 grains or so make that much difference. it shouldn't. but i guess in yer case, and as you see it, it has. to each their own.
i think, like too many folks, yer over engineering this business of arrow selection. if you could allow it to happen, you will probably find it's you (your form, your shooting) that's really the common denominator and not 30 grains of arrow mass.
In my opinion, bare shaft tuning is time consuming, frustrating which can lead to aggravation. Cutting off a 1/4" here, glue in the insert, shoot bare shaft, if not right, take the insert out, cut off another 1/4", repeat the process, etc, etc. If you cut the bare shaft too short, you start over. For me, bare shaft tuning was a "pain in my rear end" and I despised it for 45 years. Oh, and your arrow release using your fingers better be good that day.
During the last two years, I have tried many different arrow setups for both of my two recurves. My 37# recurve can shoot 2114s, 2212s and 2213s. All with different point weights and different brace height settings. My 42# recurve can shoot 2212s, 2213s, 2215s and 2117s. Again, all with different point weights and different brace heights. None of the arrow setups was done by bare shaft tuning.
When Stu Millers calculator program along, this was the cat's meow for me. It's like a virtual "what if" program where you can see how different length arrow sizes with different point weights should perform without having to buy the arrows.
I wanted to shoot a 32" aluminum arrow and no other length. Using his calculator program, I plugged in the arrow length along with the corresponding arrow sizes and different point weights and the rest of the correct info into the 14 boxes. His program always gets me close for a tunable arrow. When I found ones I liked, I shot a few arrows out of my bows and then fine tuned by raising or lowering the brace height. Simple, easy, effective and efficient.
With Stu's calculator program and it works very well for me, I haven't bare shafted for the last 2 years and with that said, I kicked the bare shaft tuning method.....to the curb. I'll never bare shaft tune again. The reason; the time it takes me to tune 4 arrows using Stu's program is equivalent to the same time it takes me to tune 1 arrow using bare shaft tuning. The results are the "same", but without any of the bare shaft hassle if you get my drift. My only lament, I wish Stu' program would have been around 47 years ago when I was 14 years old and started bowhunting.
QuoteIn my opinion, bare shaft tuning is time consuming, frustrating which can lead to aggravation. Cutting off a 1/4" here, glue in the insert, shoot bare shaft, if not right, take the insert out, cut off another 1/4", repeat the process, etc, etc.
Don't know why it has to be that difficult. Just trim from the nock end. Yank the nock out, trim, stick the nock back in and shoot. Using one arrow you should be able to bareshaft tune within an hour or less. Once you get it shooting like you want add a few more shafts to verify the results.
Brett
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
i think, like too many folks, yer over engineering this business of arrow selection. if you could allow it to happen, you will probably find it's you (your form, your shooting) that's really the common denominator and not 30 grains of arrow mass. [/QB]
You're probably right. Stu's Calc says these arrows should work for me at 529 grains. As my form improves, I may find that he's right. One thing I noticed, if I lower my bow weight in Stu's calc to get my "measured bow speed" then the 559 arrows are a match to my bow. So I wonder if 559 is the real arrow for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Steertalker:
QUOTE]Don't know why it has to be that difficult. Just trim from the nock end. Yank the nock out, trim, stick the nock back in and shoot. Using one arrow you should be able to bareshaft tune within an hour or less. Once you get it shooting like you want add a few more shafts to verify the results.
Brett
It's not that simple trimming from the nock end. My Eclipse X7 2212s and Camo Hunter aluminum arrows have metal uni bushings already installed by Easton. It's not wise to use a metal plier on the uni bushings to take them out. You'll damage them. If they get damaged, the arrow won't fly right. As an analogy; it's like gluing a nock on a swaged arrow crooked, not straight.
**shrug**
Since I only have to tune once to a particular bow, I don't think it's a big deal to take an hour and get things right.
If you get things flying to your satisfaction without spending that hour, more power to you. Me, I want to know the equipment isn't the problem. I can't concentrate on the shot if I don't know for sure what my setup is going to do.
Night Wing,
Not familiar with your arrow system but I do appreciate the fact that there are idiosyncrasies to each arrow type. My bad for assuming that you were using something similar to what I use.
I agree with Jeff....I want to know that my bow and arrow combination are performing flawlessly so time spent tuning is important.
Brett
ive been having a similar problem with left right wiggle. I just upped my tip weight to175 from125 andit is greatly improved. If i draw a tiny bit over my natural draw they fly really well, so it is probably my form at fault, or i need an extra pounds or two draw weight. the strange thing i have noticed is that the points and broadheads group well at 15 metres and where i am aiming(3 inch groupings) , but from 25 metres they both group to the right of my aim, and it is consistent. I havent shot further than 25 meters to see if it gets worse. this has me pretty baffled any ideas?
Have you seen these videos and critique's?
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003820
QuoteOriginally posted by FrankM:
One thing I noticed, if I lower my bow weight in Stu's calc to get my "measured bow speed" then the 559 arrows are a match to my bow.
I asked Stu about it and he told me I could do this, or just insert a personal form factor until they spine the same.
But then! I borrowed some 3355's and they flew like lasers, I only saw the back of the feathers. I put my broadheads and field points on and they group together. WTH! I swear guys, if I didn't like archery so much I'd quit.
One thing I do when I tune a bow is tape a match stick on & concentrate on aiming the match stick at a spot, when I see the arrow do some funny things in flight my brain goes into overdrive trying to analyze it & make it better & usually just make things worse.
Also with knowing that I'm being as precise in my aiming point as I can & hopefully each shot is taken with my form at it's best I should get each arrow hitting the same location unless they are not tuned right.
I agree that Stu's calculator is a God send in getting our arrows close to our bows & our shooting as long as we punch in the right figures.
If one dosen't have consistant shooting form,then all this Stu's,paper,and bareshafting is for not.
Put a wide broadhead(like a 160 snuffer)on a bareshaft.This will tell you ALOT about shooting form and tunning.
I like bareshaft because it tunes my form as well as the arro my to bow.
I started bareshafting to at least 30 yards,it shows if your on or off,20 yards is not enough to get arrows properly tuned,In 44 years of shooting, bareshafting is the best change I ever made...shows all your tuneing problems...
I am a bare shaft tuner. Without getting into all the particulars the last thing I do when things seem to be OK is to shoot broadheads. If they shoot true the job is done. If they don't then I know I need to tweek things and that can become pesky especially if the bare shaft tuning seems perfect. I have a new Stalker longbow that bare shafts very good but the broadheads are finicky. I hung the bow up until after I get the garden in then I will play with it til I get those broadheads shooting the way they should.