Did Native Americans, Europeans, whomever tune arrows back in the day? How'd they do it?
Common sense tells me that making arrows is tough right? So you make em, and if they don't shoot well out of your bow. Then one of your buddy's tries em. After a while you learn how the flex of a shaft shoots out of your bow and you look for shoots, bamboo, or other shafting that flexes the way you need it to. Then your bow breaks and you start over, Oh how nice it must have been to have that kind of time!
i would think the same way we do today tial and error. :rolleyes:
Primitive shafting was generally hardwood shoots or cane. The natural taper of these shafts make them less spine sensative. Also as long as the point and the nock line up the arrow will fly so the shafts don't have to be perfectly straight to fly well. Tapered shafts are front heavy also. All these things, plus the eyes and hands of the primitive maker produced an arrow that he could depend on for food or security. For him it was a necessity; life or death!
Most of the arrows I make and shoot are "primitive" arrows. I do use some modern tools but my arrows are cane or hardwood shoots with self nocks, hafted stone or trade points set in pitch glue and tied with sinew. Fletching(different styles) is tied on with sinew and the shafts and sinew wraps are sealed with pitch varnish.
At 25 yards or less these arrows are plenty accurate enough for hunting any game. IMO
You do wonder. They never weighed shafts, and matched spine is thought to be a pretty recent concern. Probably just took what you were handed in the military and might have noted some flew better than others and selected one of those for your hunting shot.
Native Americans likely selected natural shoots that would be more consistant to spine for size than spit lumber.
I think another factor was that the hunting was a bit different. I believe they commonly got pretty close, due to a combination of better skills (developed from outright necessity) and the somewhat limiting nature of their equipment. I remember seeing a film of a Bushman hunting. He had a very tiny bow and arrow (with poison) and got probably 5 yards from the animal. I suspect a lot of native hunters worked on this basis, i.e. the closeness, not the toxins.
I would imagine an Indian finding a certain stick, that bends just right, feels heavy enough, and hits what he's looking at. I imagine he would want to make all his sticks the same. I wonder if tribes tried to make their bows the same or if it was more of a family thing, you shot a bow your dad made.
Interesting topic as I keep eyeballing the maple shoots growing along the fence!!
I also have a mulberry tree with a couple very nice staves hidden in the trunk. Waiting for the knowledge before I cut them down!!
They would select arrow shafts from plants of the same species, age and size. They would simply select for uniformity. Any arrows that flew differently would have still been used,they just would have adapted their shooting to them. I regularly shoot arrows of varying spine and mass and its surprising how they still shoot with some consistency, especially in the 10 - 20 yard range.
I've always wondered this myself. They seemed to do just fine and yet we spend hours tuning :p
It has been known for a very long time that strong bows need stiff arrows. When it comes to archery we really are not that much ahead of where folks were a couple of thousand years ago........sure they did not have carbon fiberglass or aluminum but they had a strong grasp of the essentials.
They HAD to start learning from a young age. With a village full of knowledge and each helping the other out (I suspect) many "secrets" were readily available.
They also didn't have to get to the Mall before it closes...
Same way we did it as kids. Arrows that flew well were kept for serious shots, "okay" arrows used for practice and bad for checking out just how cool it was to see it explode shooting rocks or stone walls. While we obsess over .001" straightness and +/- 5 gr weight tolerances, the fact of the matter is it doesn't matter for a 10 yard bunny shot.
I believe I read in one of the Howard Hill books that before a safari trip Howard would shoot each one of the many dozens of arrows. He seperated the ones that shot to the right, the left, and down the middle.
This was only a few decades ago, certainly not primitive times. I could see native cultures sorting arrows by a similar method.
Every one of us have our "shooters" and our "stumpers". If it doesn't fly right it gets a blunt put on the end of it.
It always amazes me when folks talk about using their "bad" arrows for practice. How can you learn to hit with arrows that don't go where you aim them? No offense meant to anyone, but my practice arrows shoot the same as my hunting arrows. I can't imagine doing it any other way.
The early archers weren't stupid. They knew how to get the job done. Their lives depended on getting the game they shot at. With practice, a person can judge the stiffness of shafts just by flexing them in his/her hands. Remember, these hunters lived and breathed and survived by bow hunting, not like us who do it for sport.
IM sure the ancients paper tuned their equipment . IM sure that parchement and velum were invented so they could wring the max velocity and alignment out of their shafts .'
But that is why they were not sucessful and the human race died out, due to the lack of PERFECTNESS in thier eqwuipment .
What a shame that rocks at the end of sticks with some different feathers from different birds at the other end could not kill any thing and starvation set in.
They didn't. They also weren't trying to split one arrow with another. One in the side of somethign for dinner or above the opposing army was good enough.
I've been doing mission work with the Maasai tribe for the last 5 years. On one trip we went to a Maasai market , where they all get together and trade and sell. I was watching an old man, "The Weapons Maker" making bows and arrows. He was trimming and sizing arrow shafts. I picked up one of the shafts and sighted down it and straightend for him. He stopped what he was doing and watched very intently as I worked getting the shaft straight. When I got it straight I handed it to him and the sighted down the shaft. He gave me a big smile and handed me a dozen more, we both had a good laugh. He could not speak a word of English and I knew how to say "hello" in Maa, but we could speak through archery! It was a great feeling to experience that. I have a bow set;arrows, quiver and bow. It is very old , I would post pic's but not sure how to do that if someone could post I will send them.
These guys are accurate out to 40+ yards and they do use poision, they even have practice tips.
The following are extracts from Saxton Pope's "Yahi Archery" about Ishi's arrows
"He always made arrows in groups of five. Thus
he would select the best of his sticks, and collecting them in groups,
bind them together securely with a cord.The first process in manufacture was that of straightening his
shafts."......
......"When a group of five arrows had been brought to this stage of
completion, he painted them. His favorite colors were green and red.
At first he insisted that these were the only colors to use, since they
had the effect of making the arrows fly straight"
......."The arrow in the condition just described was now accurately cut
to a certain length. His method of measurement was to hold the butt
against his own sternal notch and then, reaching along the shaft with
his left hand, almost in his shooting position (as described below), he
cut the shaft off at the end of his left forefinger. This gave a length
of about twenty-nine inches. The cutting of the shaft was done with
a filing motion of an obsidian knife."
The beauty is flaming arrows don't need to fly straight
The Masai and Ishi stories are awesome!
QuoteOriginally posted by Pat B:
Most of the arrows I make and shoot are "primitive" arrows. I do use some modern tools but my arrows are cane or hardwood shoots with self nocks, hafted stone or trade points set in pitch glue and tied with sinew. Fletching(different styles) is tied on with sinew and the shafts and sinew wraps are sealed with pitch varnish.
At 25 yards or less these arrows are plenty accurate enough for hunting any game. IMO
Pat, I really enjoy seeing your bows and the work you produce. Would happen to have a few pics of the arrows you produce? I am just about ready to try my hand at making a few and would love to see some nice examples.
Good topic guys!
What about "blood grooves" that were heated. Didn't that help straighten and "tune" their arrows? Not sure how much it was used...
Here are a few Lee. I believe the two on the left are hill cane with Eastern Woodland style 2fletch and the one on the right is sourwood shoot with my version of a 2fletch.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/forPA008-2.jpg)
Next is a set of Plains style arrows made with redosier dogwood shoot shafts.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/Minutemansarrows003.jpg)
The one on the left is hill cane and the other three are sourwood. Three different styles of fletching and stone and trade points.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows001.jpg)
I'm sure they just sorted out the ones that flew best and made aiming adjustments on the rest of them
The thing here is they got close and they were expert trackers. With having the ability to track through any conditions, with or without blood and not having to worry about property lines, neighborhoods or anti hunters, they could stay on the trail. I'm sure that nearly any hit in the body would end with meat on the table, even if it took a long time to find or follow up shots were needed. I doubt that many of the deer that modern hunters lose would have been lost by natives, they possessed skills and determination that we have simply lost.
QuoteOriginally posted by Skipmaster1:
I'm sure they just sorted out the ones that flew best and made aiming adjustments on the rest of them
The thing here is they got close and they were expert trackers. With having the ability to track through any conditions, with or without blood and not having to worry about property lines, neighborhoods or anti hunters, they could stay on the trail. I'm sure that nearly any hit in the body would end with meat on the table, even if it took a long time to find or follow up shots were needed. I doubt that many of the deer that modern hunters lose would have been lost by natives, they possessed skills and determination that we have simply lost.
Thats excatctly what i thought too. They did not need to make a "humane" kill, just a kill. And if that meant a gut-shot with 10 miles of tracking and three follow up shots it was still good if food for a more than week was at the end of the track.
I think its common sense for the most part. Like Don mentioned these people depended on their weapons so much more than we could every imagine.
After a few hundred arrows and bows, I'm sure they figured out what worked out best. And how to make due with what they had.
Gilbert
Thanks a ton Pat, that is just what the doctor ordered. Much appreciated.
As Don reminded us and we all tend to forget because of our hurry and because we're not out there living it everyday: these folks had a feel for and familiarity with their materials that transcends even the most experienced of our present-day arrowsmiths.
They could choose and build good-flying arrows for the same reason that they could find game, smell water and heal themselves with wild plants---they lived it 24/7 for centuries before we got here and they weren't too distracted by wristwatches to stay "in tune" with their natural world
I think if you shoot wood, you get a feel for them. I am talking about shooting just wood every day with the same bow.
Over the years of shooting wood I bet a lot of the guys here could pretty much tell if the arrow is to weak or stiff, just by bending it with their hands. If your life depended on it you would get real good at guessing/knowing what arrows your bow shoots best.
How many can come close to how much weight a bow has that they never have shot before. I bet you wouldn't be off by much. I am talking about stick bows.
I've heard it said that native americans considered it dishonorable if the fletching wasn't touching the bow hand at the shot...ie. stuck in the animal. They got close!!! Because they could.
How long do you have to dry Red Osier Dogwood before you turn it into arrows?
Do you strip the bark off right when you cut it, or later?
Have any of your made Red Osier arrows in spine weights heavy enough for 75-pound bows?
Think it can be done?
Heading out tomorrow with a sharp knife and tons of Red Osier in the high-elevation canyon above my house. Any guidance will be greatly appreciated.
this is a blast from the past....funny how modern man tends to over think and over complicate every day tasks...
Another thing is we hear all kinds of Robin Hood tales about the impossible accuracy of which the archers were capable. In battle, though, I think they probably had kids running bundles of hundreds of arrows along the line to archers running low. That kind of shooting was like the old musket volleys. Rain several hundred arrows down on the opposing ranks, shot from heavy longbows, tipped with heavy points and it didn't matter too much which soldier you hit. Hard to picture those arrows as closely matched.
they had arrow makers and bowyers within the groups. The fletchers lives depended on the arrows flying straight and the game or the hunter coming back. So they did their job well and the group prospered if they didn't the died.
Mike
I think I can write a book on the subject. I always was taught to select bamboo on length between nodes, sand and straighten, heat to temper, and then weigh the shafts. At that point separate them, then weigh my nocks and points. At that point I can check my list of what point will weigh right with what shaft and nock and assemble an arrow that will weigh very close to the next. Fletching is long and low and its weight is negligible, and if an arrow needs an adjustment to make weight I can use a horn washer or something to get it to scrape by, or scrape/sand to get it down. I personally make my heavy war arrows to within ten grains top to bottom. If it weighs the same, it'll shoot the same. There is no spine measurement. I was handed a bucket of different arrows and told to practice until there was no difference. It took time, but it's completely possible. I have my preferences (I shoot 7595s from a roughly 50 pound bow and can hit bumblebees) but a shot or two with a bundle and I would be OK in the woods with them. I don't believe in spine-I was taught that it's a crutch and a fallacy. I know that deflection is a real thing, but I never let it pick my shafts for me. I can always adjust my grip or where I'm aiming, or even my draw length to compensate.
I still shoot with the same techniques used nearly two millennia ago, and if I get dropped in the woods, I can still take sticks and rocks and make my own bow, string and arrows. When you learn that, differences in arrows kinda go away.
Or, throw enough shaft weight at it and call it a day.
I cut my shoots little to big and scape down the front 2/3 of the shaft until it flys right
I read one time that the English Archers at any givin time had at least one arrow that they named, and when it came time for a precise shot, they would use that arrow...
Put on heavy point, Chip till it flys right.
God bless, Steve
I have to believe that any society that relied on hunting to eat, also hunted in groups, together, helping each other to secure meat. Ambushes, sneaks, more than one arrow from numerous hunters at once, and from different sides of the animal. No doubt their gear was treated with the same care we give today, and some were better than others at getting good flight, getting close, all the above. As an aside, I am a meat hunter, and want to bring game home, if it is a "trophy" well, that is icing on the cake, but not the focal point of my time in the woods or in the desert where I grew up. I would love to hunt with a group, day after day, and eat after cooking it up with the group.
When I make "primitive" arrows I only check spine to find the stiff side and that side goes against the bow. The natural taper of cane and hardwood shoots, their weight forward and I cut mine long(30" for my 26" draw)all add up to a more forgiving arrow. I have made very few "primitive" arrows that don't shoot well out to hunting distances. I don't think it is me the master arrowsmith(not)that makes them all fly well. I do think it is the natural taper, weight forward and extra length that helps. Heck, the shafts don't even have to be dead straight. As long as the point and nock line up and the arrow spins true it will generally shoot well. If not it becomes a wall hanger.
QuoteOriginally posted by Blueridge:
I've been doing mission work with the Maasai tribe for the last 5 years. On one trip we went to a Maasai market , where they all get together and trade and sell. I was watching an old man, "The Weapons Maker" making bows and arrows. He was trimming and sizing arrow shafts. I picked up one of the shafts and sighted down it and straightend for him. He stopped what he was doing and watched very intently as I worked getting the shaft straight. When I got it straight I handed it to him and the sighted down the shaft. He gave me a big smile and handed me a dozen more, we both had a good laugh. He could not speak a word of English and I knew how to say "hello" in Maa, but we could speak through archery! It was a great feeling to experience that. I have a bow set;arrows, quiver and bow. It is very old , I would post pic's but not sure how to do that if someone could post I will send them.
These guys are accurate out to 40+ yards and they do use poision, they even have practice tips.
Email me. I want to see and I'll post.
Thank you for sharing.
budnstefb at aol dot com
I made a sourwood shoot arrow a few weeks ago. Nice natural taper. It was 32" to BOP. It spined at 71#. Around here I'd bet sourwood, dogwood, and cane were their choices. After a while, they could do it repetitively with close tolerances and feel it was right, I believe.
Good discussions here and good reads.
QuoteOriginally posted by mike g:
I read one time that the English Archers at any givin time had at least one arrow that they named, and when it came time for a precise shot, they would use that arrow...
A Billy Baroo arrow. :thumbsup:
I believe I read (here on TG) that the fletchers of Europe/England used to make the arrows to match a particular archer/bow's needs and then paint the arrow according to the archer's family crest. Hence the term "Cresting" an arrow. Which made for easy identification in the field.
Were not as smart as we think we are,a lot of common sense has been lost just in the last decade.Howard Hill made up a bunch of arrows and shot them at the target,the ones that hit the bull went hunting.
Bud B. sourwood is my favorite shafting. I like it even more than hill cane. You can scrape the bark off of sourwood right when you cut it. It will rarely check. I have cut sourwood in the winter, scraped it and placed it under my wood stove for a day or two and made an arrow from it.
Because of the natural taper that 70# spined shaft should shoot well from a 60# bow and the added 4" (32"/28")will reduce the effective spine by almost another 20#. Some of my sourwood arrows will shoot well from bows 45# to 65#.
QuoteOriginally posted by 3arrows:
Were not as smart as we think we are,a lot of common sense has been lost just in the last decade.Howard Hill made up a bunch of arrows and shot them at the target,the ones that hit the bull went hunting.
This is the approach I would/have used when dealing with shafts of unknown origin.
Grab a bunch of shafts and shoot them. Sort the shafts that shoot from the ones that do not. Tweak as needed. You can go as type A on them as you want.
The Asian way of making arrows is very, very old, and it seems we still ignore its lessons. Most older cultures with bows changed from short, tall feathers to long low fletching quite a while back. So did many First Peoples. But we still keep using a style mooted by our forebears. Tanged heads could be tuned over a vast range-everything from adjusting the tang length to grinding the sides to shimming it with brass, horn, or bone. To me they represent the pinnacle of development, but they were tossed for a series of glue-on or screw in heads. I'm trying to bring them back.
They did so much of this so different from us. Maybe we should examine going back to their methods.
One thing that hasn't been brought up here, is that if you look at a spine/deflection chart, you find that as a shaft gets stiffer, the amount of deflection between shafts gets less and less. Maybe they just shot stiffer spined arrows than we think they did, and the actual spine didn't matter so much. I'm pretty sure they weren't shooting aspirin tablets, either.
Hey Pat, I gave that arrow away to a guy who gave me some wing feathers. He'll never shoot it and I never did :( I wanted it as a mantle piece. He was going to mount an arrowhead on it that he had found. I have more shoots though ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by CRS:
QuoteOriginally posted by 3arrows:
Were not as smart as we think we are,a lot of common sense has been lost just in the last decade.Howard Hill made up a bunch of arrows and shot them at the target,the ones that hit the bull went hunting.
This is the approach I would/have used when dealing with shafts of unknown origin.
Grab a bunch of shafts and shoot them. Sort the shafts that shoot from the ones that do not. Tweak as needed. You can go as type A on them as you want. [/b]
yep seems every dozen or two I make...there are always those that are a little straighter, spin a little smoother, and fly a little better where I intend them to go with no differences in spine or weight....just something about how it all comes together. I will mark them or number 1-12.....and shoot the couple in the MIDDLE of the pack for practice and carry the rest in the woods for hunting.....always pulling 1, 2, 3 for my first arrow...saving 10, 11, 12 for small game....even though the differences in impact may be minute and more attributed to changes in my form or release...but still I do it....and think others do as well. :)
These folks hunted for a living. I am sure that the good information was passed down from generation to generation. I guess in the beginning someone had to use trial and error, but as time went on the less thought went into making the perfect setup. The one thing that I am certain of is they did not have trad gang to help them achieve perfect arrow flight. :archer2:
Do a test...go cut some shoots and build a few arrows. I'd bet before you know it you can do it. I did! When PA Magazine first came out there was an article in the first 3 issues called "arrows, 101" or something like that. Look up that article and give it a read. It sure is great to know I can do it all myself.
This "how did the primitives" do it? is a lot like music. A classical musician with years of training and a degree in music theory should theoretically be able to play circles around a barely literate blues musician. It's three chords at most - how hard can it be? Yet few musicians can get this authentic sound/feel. It's because it's something you have to do everyday for your whole life without really thinking about it. It has to be part of your body/heart/soul to work.
In the book Comanche Summer the Comanche practiced until the could hit a target the size of a red rubber ball at 90 yards. They may not have called it spine nor anything else we call tuning but I believe to do that they must have known a lot that is lost to us today.
It is also said that Chief Winnebago could put 11 arrows in the air at the same time.
I agree with Threearrows we have lost many somethings over the years past.