Trad Gang

What's the differance,  as far as accuracy etc. Benifits of each?

JMHO, but elevated rests don't seem to offer any advantage on trad bows, at least if you are 'instinctive' in your shooting style. Getting the arrow on the shelf puts it closer to the hand, and makes canting easier. Fred Asbell has written a good bit on this subject, and I go along with his opinion. Your mileage may vary.

My mileage varies.  Every bow I have put a rest on (mine or a friends) has had improved arrow flight and easier/wider range in tuning.  

It takes about 2 shots to adjust to the rest and that half inch it raises your arrow off your hand doesn't do diddly to hurt your shooting.

Added bonus is being able to hunt with vanes if you want.

No rests on my longbows and I am about 50/50 shelf vs. rest on my recurves.

Clearly you can shoot off of both but for me a big reason I went from my compound to tradtional was to reduce the items that can fail on my bow in the field.  The way I see it, a rest is just something else that can fail.  Remove the rest and you have the simple stick and string.  

Some say you are more accurate as you put the arrow closer to your hand but I think it is more practice than equipment.  That is proven by the guy that is deadly with a sling shot.  Every sling shot that I have seen puts the rock higher above your hand than a rest puts your arrow.  I would say try both and shoot what is comfortable.

I have a lot of bows and I generally leave what was on them when I received them. I will shoot rug rests, velcro rest, feather rest, flipper rest. I generally get good flight with all but the flipper is a surprise, perfect flight every time.

Years ago I received a 2nd hand Black Widow and was shooting off the shelf. While I was shooting the rest had came off and I did not notice until I had shot 5 or 6 arrows.

It still shot good. So in a hunting situation I know I can still get off a shot without a problem. I think that's a very good reason to shoot off the shelf.

Put a weather rest on my kodiak hunter and removed it don't notice any difference how it shoots.

I  tried both and then decided on what I liked the best. Everyone is different.

On the shelf the arrow is closer to your pointing hand,I own a samick recurve that is not made and conceived to shoot off the shelf,I use it for bow fishing with an elevated rest  :)

I'm with Steve-O

Steve-O or DesertDude...What type of rest do you use?  Just would like to try myself.

Thanks
Benny

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/DSC01070.jpg)

Bear Weatherest covered with moleskin is a Cheap, silent, and deadly way to start.  Some take that flipper part and cut it in half (heigth wise) to make it a bit more flexible.

I like the Hoyt Hunter rest, the arm is already a little more flexible.

On one of my wife's recurves I ended putting a feather rest from three rivers on it because it was not getting perfect arrow flight. The improvement was dramatic.  I have a 52" pearson that I was having the occasional flip on me, I added the feather rest and completely fixed the problem of my sometimes less than perfect release tossing the arrow around. A little forgiveness never hurts, however some longbows are not designed and tillered to tolerate an elevated arrow rest.

Afterthought.Maybe with what you fellers offersed I will give it another try might not have given it a fair shake.If I'm not mistaken Barry Wensel shoots a modified rest.

Yes, Barry shoots one, you can see how he modified it if you look close.

 (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/Wensel%20Photos/69ad8400.png)

Paul Schafer used one and Dave Windauer shoots them, on his longbows no less (gasp!)

 (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/Post%20pics/cb60a25f.png)


Look at this joker...bamboo shafts and an elevated rest     :biglaugh:  

   (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/Post%20pics/4a21bcd1.png)

These are just friends that know a rest will work in the field, but I do trust them, and have personally used Bear and Hoyt rests with no issues in some pretty rough and wet terrain.  I have complete confidence in them on my hunting bows in the roughest terrain or weather.

They work on easy hunts too:

 (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/P8220010.jpg)

me personally, i find it easier and less of a hassle to shoot off the shlf but its personal preference.

Been shooting a long time. Here's what has worked for me. Back in the 50's up until I shot compounds for a while i shot off an elevated rest. When I got back into recurves the new "traditional' way to do it right was off the shelf. I did that. Over the years my accuracy was never what it was when I shot an elevated rest and I found getting broadheads to fly was very broadhead specific. When I put an elevated rest back on the recurve my speed, accuracy and tunability went way up and my wound rate on animals went way down...the way it used to be. I can shoot any broadhead I want and by adding a plunger I can fine tune the arrow to the bow with extreme preciseness.

I shoot both ways, but to be honest a rest is typically superior in accuracy. As far as the arrow sitting closer to your hand aiding instinctive shooting, I say it is a myth. Shooting instictively is about alignment, elevation allegedly takes care of itself.

Like the arrow closer to the hand. But, I do make my own feather rests which are just slightly higher than the leather rest itself. I get faster quieter arrows.

I used to shoot a flipper rest and a three pin sight on my recurve. I was deadly in practice, but in the field things would always go wrong. I have had them fall off when it was freezing cold and I had a unique talent for losing the little plastic tube on the wire arm. Now I only shoot off the shelf, just one less thing that can go wrong. Got rid of the sight too.

I use both methods on different bows. I have a Mercury Hunter that has a pretty flat shelf so I've been shooting a flipper of that bow and I have a Recon ILF riser that I started with a flipper and changed it to off the shelf with equal results in performance. All my self(s) are off the shelf. Like a number have said already if you have the arrow tuned to the bow it is all a matter of personal preference. I like the clean looks off the shelf better myself... :^)

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Glenn

I know it is a personal preference thing, but I have been using an elevated rest for 35 yrs.  From the beginning I got better arrow flight, so have stuck with it thru fiberglass, alum, wood and carbon arrows.

An artical on Paul Schafer I read years ago said he shoots off an elevated rest and gave several reasons including using vanes. I put a rest on my bow and have never looked back, only time in my life I learned the easy way instead of the hard way.

I used various rests when I shot target and, IMHO, with light shafts and small fletch they are the way to go for best flight.  With a heavy hunting shaft and big feathers I am happier off the shelf.  In a hunting situation there is no "oops" that the arrow is on the shelf instead of the rest and less chance of bobbling off - depending on your shelf & rest.  

Also remember the KISS principle.  There is nothing to snap off a shelf.

Guess it's tough to argue with guys that are accomplished bow hunters who use a rest, no matter what kind. I do like the simplicity of the plain shelf. I think you have to try both and see what works for you. I just picked up an Metal ILF riser that I want to play around with. I know that I am going to try both on this bow when I get it just to see what is going to work best for me. Heck I may not like it at all and stick with my longbow...lol!

I prefer off the shelf. If the bow is tillered properly, the shelf is in the right location, the limbs are balanced, and the bow is tuned(...ALL of which should also be done regardless of if one shoots off shelf or a rest...), then I find shooting off the shelf to be very forgiving.

I would also note that the majority of traditional archery legends...folks like HH...shot off the rest. That said, I suspect that shooting off a rest is more forgiving if someone doesn't have a great bow hand...or if the bow isn't perfectly set up.

I prefer the shelf though as the shelf has no chance of coming off or moving. It would bother me to think my "rest" could break off when I was in the woods during a lifetime opportunity hunt.

I've shot off the shelf, flipper rest and Bear weather rest.

Like most I have read that off the shelf close to the hand was the best for instinctive shooting. So that is how I started. Then I quickly found out that keeping feathers dry was next to impossible in the late season blacktail hunt here in Oregon. So I put a rest on, and switched to vains for the late season.

It took me about a week to re-sight my brain due to the elevated rest. I have noticed no negative difference in accuracy.  In fact I think it improves my shooting and I don't have to worry about wet feathers any more. I now shoot a Bear weather rest all year round. Shooting both feather and vains.

I have never had the bear weather rest come off unexpectedly. In fact when I've wore them out and had to change them, it was a chore to remove the rest and all the adhesive. If it does come off in the field I always carry a spare in my pack. They are cheap and easy to replace in the field if needed.

Hmm it seems there are as many opinions on this subject as there are types of rests.  :p

Thanks for posting this topic, I was interested to hear about this as well.

Get a Hoyt flex rest and try for yourself. They are cheap and you will be pleasantly surprised.

I find the durability concerns to be unfounded and I've used them from rain forest to high desert, from pouring rain to parched arid conditions without fail.

Tuning is a snap... take one of your bare shaft tested arrows that flies perfectly off the shelf and shoot it across a rest. You WILL be amazed!

Reread Bill Carlson's post above.

Of course if shooting off the shelf makes you feel "cool", go for it.
  :D

I have tried both ways and prefer "off the shelf". When shooting off the shelf, the rest doesn't detach from the bow like the possibility it can with an elevated rest and an arrow doesn't fall off the shelf like it can with the little arm of an elevated rest.

I guess what I'm saying is, with an elevated rest, in the back of my mind, I always have to worry about Murphy's Law. I never worry about Murphy's Law when I shoot off the shelf.

Mr. Lamb would you please post a pic of the Hoyt flex rest?

For sure a elevated rest is faster and easier to tune with your arrow.It is true you'll have a perfect arrow flight,but if you spend more time fine tuning your set up you can obtein the same accuracy with a shelf rest.In the past i was amazed by the performances of a flipper rest,far superior to a rubber rest,but in real hunting conditions when you are stalking or still hunting sometimes you are required to awful positions and the rest is not a option.Better for 3D or from a stand.

I shoot off the shelf, but it's just for the sake of simplicity.  There's nothing "holy" about either choice.

I agree with Jeff. On the note of simplicity, I don't know if I have ever seen a stick on rest on a longbow. I am sure some have and do use it though...I am only saying they are much more common on recurves.

In the end Shoot what works best for you and Your style of shooting....As for me I shoot my longbow off the shelf and my recurve with a rest.
I get perfect flight and I have never had any issues with and elevated rest ever.

I think what Charlie, Bill and others here, that use and get good results by using the raised rest, is better timing in their bows. Better timing is 'bout the only thing that would explain better accuracy, speed and tunability over shooting off the rest. Unlike selfbows, where you can build in best timing for one's grip, glass bows, you'll need to kinda search for it sometimes. Easier to do that than trying to grip a bow in a fashion that's not natural like.

Does that make sence? Art

I've been struggling with the same decision---to rest or not.  I picked up a half-dozen old Flipper Rests off an auction sight -- got em all, new in the box for less than $10 including shipping. I have several Bear Weather Rests.

I received Dave's personal Lefty Silvertip around August to try out. It had a Bear Weather rest under moleskin like the picture above.  I liked it and of course left it in place as I would be returning the try-out bow.   I have a plunger style springy rest on my Stricklands's "Stick".

At basement range distances (13 yards) I couldn't tell any difference in my accuracy off the shelf or with an elevated rest. It was a pain however switching back on forth on the same bows as I had to cut off my tied on nock locators and re-tie so they were at the correct height. I know, I should have used brass jobs to make this quicker.

I've shot feathers and vanes off rests and the shelf. Frankly, I don't see a lot of difference with any of these set-ups. I'm thinking "paradox" keeps the vanes and feathers from contact with my shelf and window but I haven't used powder or lipstick to check it and I don't have a camera that will tell the tale.

I shoot one of my bows better than the others, most of the time. This bow doesn't fit my "purty-criteria" as it has a metal riser and is completely camouflaged. However, it is my best shooting rig. It has the elevated, plunger with springy arm. I'm sure the difference is this rest.  In fact, I almost had a Silvertip that is due any day, drilled for this same rest.  I chickened out at the last moment and ordered it to shoot off the shelf.

I suspect I'm going to give the elevated rest another try and shoot at further distances. I'm hopeful that I don't notice a lot of distance because 1). I'm pretty picky about arrow tuning and 2). My shooting process is well-practiced?

My best friend, who was a multiple IBO triple crown champ with recurves back before they moved the distances so close (Jim Hart in case any of you were shooting in the late 80's and 90's) swears by a flipper. He won't even consider shooting off the shelf.  His rest of choice is a highly mechanical affair with springs and screws so I worry for him a bit that it could go Murphy on him someday.

This is the same basic rest as the old Hoyt Pro rest except instead of plastic it's metal. Very sturdy!   (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/NeetProrest.jpg)

Thanks for the pic

I've used elevated rests for almost forty years. I shoot them on all my recurves. They are very forgiving and I've never lost one in the field. Bill and Mr. Lamb are right on the mark. The only rest I've found I don't really care for is the Bear weather rest. I really like bears brush rest though. There are two or three that I like the best and those are the ones I use. They are cheap so try a few to find your favorite.

Very interesting thread. I have had a very hard time getting my Dan Quillian Patriot recurve tuned to shoot well. It shoots very hard, but I have had a difficult time getting consistent with it. I am going to try the elevated rest...never occurred to me that that might help. thanks.

My friend just put an elevated rest on a Quillian Patriot and saw improved arrow flight. Now he can shoot vanes as well.

I like the bear wether rest as i like to use vanes but even without the vanes most bows will tune wat easyer with an elevated rest
the stalker lited out
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/ozzyshane/2010_0101picssalefor0069.jpg)

I've always used an elevated rest. Used the old Hoyt flipper back when it was available, now use the Hoyt Super  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Pictures/HoytSuperRest.gif) and am currently trying the Hunter style   (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Pictures/hoythunterrest.jpg) and like it also.

Admittedly, I have not tried the rests. I get good flight off of the shelf, so if it isn' t broke I won' t try to fix it. Could change my mind, but at hunting distance with feathers I haven' t had issues. I treat my feathers, so I don' t need vanes if the weather is wet. Not saying I never will try a rest, but I am satisfied off the shelf.

After reading this thread I went to some of the sponsors pages and looked at the rests.  I would like to try one.  I've always shot off the shelf.  I was thinking of starting with the Neet pro-rest.  My concern is how do you silence them for hunting?  Seems the metal arms and carbon arrows would make noise when drawing the bow.  Also, where do you get the plunger?  I didn't see them for sale anywhere.
Thanks

I've had real good luck with the springy rest made by Martin archery. Your bow does need to have a plunger bushing to use this rest though.

I find the old hoyt flipper rest much more accurate than the shelf. All the trad shoots say you have to shoot off of the shelf,go figure.

it's personal preference as both the shelf and elevated rest get the job done.  kinda the same for flemish and endless bowstrings.

if yer an "instinctive" shooter, getting the arrow down as close to yer bowhand as possible is a benefit, imho.

QuoteOriginally posted by Flingblade:
After reading this thread I went to some of the sponsors pages and looked at the rests.  I would like to try one.  I've always shot off the shelf.  I was thinking of starting with the Neet pro-rest.  My concern is how do you silence them for hunting?  Seems the metal arms and carbon arrows would make noise when drawing the bow.  Also, where do you get the plunger?  I didn't see them for sale anywhere.
Thanks

A little moleskin should take care of the noise. But if your bow is tapped for a plunger, I'd go that route. I don't know of any sponsors who sell long ones (which is what most bows call for) so you may want to check other online retailers. The inexpensive ones from Cavalier or Cartel work well.

beware of adjustable pressure "plungers" (or "berger buttons" as they were called in the 60's), as their functionality is totally dependent on the internal spring working silky smooth.  this could present a problem in a hunting environment venue.  instead, i'd opt to use a bolt of the correct thread size to the tapped bushing and use a glued leather dot or teflon tape for the pressure point.  it'll still be centershot adjustable for arrow tuning.

I just lift the shelf material about a 1/4 of an inch, but only half the width of the shelf (apraximately the width of my 2219 or wood arrows).  I do this to gain clearance for my 4 fletched arrows as well as clearance from a heavy glove during cold weather.
Also note: A lot of bows are cut to center or past center at the shelf, so if you move up the sight window with some elevated devise, keep in mind your windage may have changed based on the make of the bow. Mike

Also putting the arrow closer to your hand does not improve instintive shooting, actually putting it closer to your eye would improve instinctive shooting. A bow with a elevated rest and a plunger makes tuning an arrow to the bow way easier also. I shoot both but am leaning more towards putting an elevated rest on all my bows as I definitely shoot better with one. Shawn

Champion 11 rest with a plunger on an ilf rig is hard to beat and I would never worry about it coming off, hell takes 1/2 hour to pry it off and clean the adhesive up.Shawn

Berger buttons and their offspring have been around for a long time. Just a bit of maintenance now and then and they function well! Tuning can be done to near perfection.......That's why target guys have gone that route for years!! I like the the simplicity of the shelf for hunting but like to fool around with other stuff to. Just got a ILF riser and now will try both types of rests!

Keeping a Berger Button clean and working smoothly is an important consideration. Here's how I solve that problem
Note the "dot" above the arrow rest. That's the button behind the leather arrow plate. Completely closed system.
  (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/PigGig09checkering.jpg)

Excellent Idea Mr Lamb....   :notworthy:   I never gave that a thought! See even an old dog can learn a new trick!!

Het Charlie what is the bow in the pic very nice wood in the riser Thnaks Shane

Originally posted by Steve o,
 My mileage varies. Every bow I have put a rest on (mine or a friends) has had improved arrow flight and easier/wider range in tuning.  It takes about 2 shots to adjust to the rest and that half inch it raises your arrow off your hand doesn't do diddly to hurt your shooting.  Added bonus is being able to hunt with vanes if you want.  No rests on my longbows and I am about 50/50 shelf vs. rest on my recurves.
Im with Steve on this one, I have a flipper rest on my Titan and love it. I cant my bow at varying degrees depending on the situation and it still hit were I look. I still shoot my Hill off the rest as I do with some of my other bows, but my Titan with a flipper rest and vanes on the arrows is my main setup.

Many old recurves were tillered to be shot with an elevated rest. Find the nocking point by bare shafting, and if the arrow is pointing downward when put on the shelf, it will shoot better with an elevated rest.

QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Keeping a Berger Button clean and working smoothly is an important consideration. Here's how I solve that problem
Note the "dot" above the arrow rest. That's the button behind the leather arrow plate. Completely closed system.
   (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/PigGig09checkering.jpg)

don't look like the plunger tip is even showing?  how do u tune that?  do you tune first (spring tension and centershot distance) and then add the leather plate to cover?  do you allow for the plunger inward movement during release?  oh, and why's the sky blue????  :)

Ozzyshane....The bow is my personal Sunbear, "Curly"... I make them. Complete with a checkering job by Sherry Abraham and Velcro rest with Berger Button.
The wood in the riser is Bacote and Osage. The Osage matches the Bacote much closer these days after a few years.

Rob... I set the internal screws so the button doesn't move. (spring is completely compressed) Then I put it in the bow so it sticks out an eighth inch or so.
After than I lay on the leather (garment grade)sight window cover. I don't put any glue in the area of the button and don't stretch the leather down real tight.
After that I just tune the button for center shot and spring tension. Works just like it would without the leather except it's dust/dirt proof.

I'd always wanted to try the button and shelf rest so when I started making my own recurves I drilled one out for it.
Works like a charm and bareshafting is a snap. Very forgiving as well.

Not sure why the sky is blue. I'm still trying to figure out why it's falling.
  :D

yeppers, i hear ya charlie, i shot with pressure plungers for nearly 3 decades, they make arrow/bow tuning much easier for sure.  cool method ya got ... geez, maybe i need to hook up a button to my longbow ...  :D

Rob... then the sky WOULD be falling! Not to mention the ghost of Howard Hill coming down and slapping the snot out of you.   :laughing:

quote:

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Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Rob... then the sky WOULD be falling! Not to mention the ghost of Howard Hill coming down and slapping the snot out of you.    :thumbsup: