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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Rico on September 12, 2006, 07:32:00 PM
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If you have never used this knot for climbing into and out of your tree one should,great for safety allows you to remain attached to a safety line at all times depending on the length of rope.Once in the tree stand no need to unhook it will now be your safety line while in your stand.
With the unique knot one can slide the knot up and down the rope while climbing and still remain fasted to a safety line if one falls the knot simply tightens and holds one fast preventing a serious injury. I have used this with a simple belt or harness depending on the tree
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I absolutely agree. If all hunters used it treestand safety would increase 100%. The knot is very simple to show someone how to make but hard to explain. Teaching it should be mandatory in all hunters education classes. We all need to learn it, use it everytime you climb and show everyone you know how to tie it. Mr Prussic should receive the Congressional Metal of Honor for inventing that one. BW
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Here's a site that explains the knot pretty well.
http://images.ebsco.com/pob/summit/catalog/instr_prussic.pdf
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That site does have a good demo of it Dano.
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"prussik" is a great knot, I work as a tree climbing arborist and I use one called the "Blake's Hitch", alot easier to tie and it holds even better. Works on the same principle.
BD
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Yep BD, that looks like a way better knot, so what is Arborist rope??
http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/blakeshitch.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake\\'s_hitch
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I've made up several of these of different lengths using climbing rope from EMS and such but I haven't really found the soft pliable ones from summits.
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Dano, an arborist rope is any rope that you use for ascending/descending a tree. It is also called the main-line. For hunting, I would use a section of main line about 20 feet( unless you are sitting higher), climb the stand first using what ever method you use, tie the mainline to a crotch with a bowline.
tie a blake's hitch on a 6 foot length of good rope, NOT a poly-rope but a braided rope with a smooth outside.
Tie the other end of the Blakes' hitch to your saftey harness. You can then slide the blake's hitch up or down the rope as you climb or descend, if you stop pushing or pulling the hitch it will grab the mainline tight and stop you right away.
NEVER slide the knot itself, either push under or over it.
If you folks like I can do a pictorial showing how to use this technique for stand hunting with pics to show each step.
It is so easy to use that you could even climb down from your stand in a semi-rappel using the Blake's hitch to decend with saftey.
BD
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An even safer method would be to use a throwline to get over the crotch, then pull the mainline over it and have a buddy on the ground feed you line as you use the blake's hitch to climb to your stand, once in pull up the slack, tie to the crotch of the tree and let the excess dangle.
descend using your hitch and cut the excees main line to use in another tree, Make sure you tape and burn the ends of the mainline.
BD
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BD, that would be awsome if you would show us!!!!
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maybe tomorrow I'll do it, raining like the dickens here!
BD
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Mornin Cary,Thats the knot I've been useing when I do tree work,never knew what it was called I was just shown how to tie it when useing a saddle.Actually I tie in twice for tree work since the saw can cut 1 line real quick like.The adjusatble linemans line is tied with this same knot(for adjustment) so I can look at it incase I forget how to tie it on the main line.
The nice thing about the prussic is it can be left on the main line at the tree.All ya hafta do is clip on and go
Be safe this season and GOOD LUCK!!
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and just for giggles its actually a PRUSIK knot..pronounced PROO-SICK just in case someone actually cares.
I think it was invented for climbing up and down ship masts to repair riggings and sails, or something like that!
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Tom, you are supposed to cut ABOVE your line.... :bigsmyl: ;) :p
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we used this knot for a variety of applications at teh USMC mountain warfare school. I can show you how to make ascenders out of a couple!
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It is a key component of my Seat of the Pants tree stand safety harness. I found it really easy to use and adjust.
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I'm pretty sure last year someone had the idea of adding one onto Dean Torges' tree seat. Instead of all the knots, just adjust the prussic knot to accomdate the tree. Nifty!!! And BTW, in NYS, we are not allowed to teach it in our hunter safety courses/Sportsmen Education classes. The State does want the liability issue.
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IMO it's wise to use the ORIGINAL name and spelling. Not only does this make it lots easier to find additional information on the subject (e.g. googling etc.) but it will also pay credit to the man/woman who did/invented the "something". The knot has nothing to do with Prussia as ...
Dr. Karl Prusik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Prusik) was an Austrian and the knot he "invented" in 1931, should be named accordingly: "Prusik-knot"
(http://www.via-ferrata.de/images/prusik.gif)
edit:
Sorry Ray - I overread that you already mentioned it ...
... and an other IMPORTANT thing I forgot:
The rope for the "Prusik" must be smaller in diameter - about 1/2 but not smaller then 1/3 - then the main rope. If to thick it will not 'bite' the main rope at all and if to thin it will not come loose again.
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the prusik is a good knot, but it has to be made into a loop first, it is only as strong as the connecting knot. a Blake's hitch has no weak area and does not need a carabiner to clip you to it, you can tie in using a bowline "or" a figure eight and a 'biner.
very few of us that use knots to stay alive while climbing use a prusik over a Blake's hitch.
just a thought... :eek: :bigsmyl: ;)
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Can the main line be Poly? or is poly not good for any of this? Any ideas for a cheap source for good rope? Climbing stores charge a premium for their rope, which is worth it when hanging off the side of a mountain but I want to be able to put up multiple main lines and just carry in my connecting rope.
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Where is a good place to get some dark colored rope to use this method
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I don't think poly would be a good choice...if its the poly I am thinking about.
Remember, its going to be withstanding about 3000+ lbs of force when you drop against it(so in my case about 9K!)- I would make sure I had some kind of rated rope, technical stuff.
It's more expensive, but its a lot cheaper than one trip to the emergency room, right?
I retied all my stuff with Blake's hitches after talking to a guy who climbs stuff for a living.
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:bigsmyl:
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Show us the Blake's Hitch, this is the knot you need for the smaller loop correct. I use the carabiner actually I wear that and just a waist belt for most of my stands,when I want to climb turn the carabiner to the front when I get in my stand I slide it around to the back most of my stands I am comfortable with just a restraint belt.
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Big Dog, what about that pictoral?
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Ah yes, those tree climbing days when we were just "tree surgeons". Best knot in the world BD.
Climbed back in the 60's. That knot still works with my old saddle harness.......
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I'll do it today, I have to take down a big locust anyways, so I might as well do it then.
Look for the pics later.
BD
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A waist belt COULD spell disaster in a fall,
Rico!
What happens at the time you need it is that it slides upward to your armpit area and chokes off your air supply.
Change your setup to include a harness that goes under your legs, around your waist, and attaches to the tree behind your shoulder blades.
Much safer. Again, even with that system you are going to undergo severe stresses on your body that could cause you to pass out after only a few minutes.
Your goal is to be able to climb back onto your stand, or get to your climbing system and get down before that happens. Set your connection to the tree as high as you can reach, and tether it so that when you sit down you can lean against the strap - that means when you fall you fall at the level of your stand rather than falling 2,3 or more feet below it. It also means you can lean against it while sitting, taking strain off your back and legs while waiting for your quarry to come by.
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rico,
If you use a single belt make sure it is up under your armpits, this is much safer than around your waist. It will still cut off your air if given enough time.
you will have a much better chance of getting back to the stand with it there than around your waist. a harness is better.
BD
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An alternative to using this knot is using an ascender devise. You can get them at mountain climbing stores or cheaper at any construction supply store. You would use them the same as the prussic knot, but the ascender is easier to move up and down the rope, you can also descend with it attached. They are also much easier to attach and detach from the main rope. Cost is between about $18 - >$50. Cheaper models (construction) are made of steel, expensive are made of aluminum (weight) and are shaped to your hand. I wouldn't worry about the either of them breaking though.
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BobCo do you have any web sites that show an ascender device? Thanks Rich
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The industrial one is here:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1611773196
sport climbing type:
http://www.cmi-gear.com/catalog/ascenders/index.asp
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What I like about the knot its quiet,light and cheap
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just remember if you use a prussik and slip dont grab the knot itself you will keep slipping then
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okay, here is a pictorial of how to tie the knot and how to use it for bowhunting( Blake's hitch), a couple are a bit fuzzy, my groundie doesn't know the meaning of "use two hand to take the pic"! LOL
number one: tie into your harness with a figure eight and a carabiner or a screw quick-lock of 1800# rating.( figure eight is eay to tie, check any knot site to see it, I won't show how to tie it, it is very easy to learn form a pic.) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0231.jpg)
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with your mainline tied in the tree( leave it there for the season) take a 6 foot length of rope and tie it to your harness with a figure eight and a carabiner or screw quick-link like shown, take the other end of the 6' rope and make one loop clockwise around your mainline. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0232.jpg)
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make 4 more loops around above the 1st one then bring the tag end down and BEHIND the mainline, it will be in front of you as shown. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0233.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0234.jpg)
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now, insert the tag end up and thru the bottom 2 colis of the wraps, then snug both the tag end of the 6' rope and the other end of it that is tied in to your harness, pull them until the knot snugs up and looks like this. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0236.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0237.jpg)
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tie a small overhand "stopper" knot in the tag end of the line, this will stop the knot from slipping if something happened to it. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0238.jpg)
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make sure the knot looks like this from the back, this angle shows the when weight is applied the knot snugs the mainline and won't move unless you g (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0239.jpg)ive it some slack and move it.
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this is how you move the knot, you slide up UNDER it when going up, over it and down when coming down. I use the knot everyday in my job, it has never failed, i'm still here! use it when going up your steps or sticks, it works real well when hanging a stand.
If you slip going up or down your mainline it will suspend your weight without a problem.
It is easy to tie and untie( less than 20 seconds), and one harness with a 6' rope will do you as long as you have mainlines in every tree.
if you ascend using a harness with the linesman belt( like the gorilla ones that come with the stands), then you can climb, lean back, slide you hitch up, climb, slide, etc. you will NEVER fall when using that system.
hope this clarifies it a bit. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0240.jpg)
BD
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Big Dog,
Is the mainline looped over an overhead branch, are the mainline ends tied off near the ground level?
It looks like a mainline end is secured to your linemans belt,yes?
Can you step back for one more photo op. so we could see how the whole rig appears before you accend?
Rusty
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the mainline was looped for the pic, you can have a friend belay you with that method, or tie off to the trunk or another tree close by.
For bowhunting purposes use this method to get the mainline up the tree, then tie one end off where you like it and leave it 'till season is over.
I'll take a pic to sho you how to rig it with a gorrila harness, I doubt many of you will use a red weaver arborist harness right?LOL!
BD
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here are 2 pics, this is a gorilla harness with the linesman belt that comes with it. I clipped with a quick link the 6' rope to the front of the harness, then tied a Blake's hitch to the mainline. you can climb with the linesmans belt knowing the hitch will catch you if you slip or need a rest.
BD (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0257.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/ashstyk/IMGP0258.jpg)
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Great job BD, you can't be too safe climbin into your stand. Afterall it's not the fall that kills you. ;)
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caranthir, below is the one that I use, it's made by petzl. This one cost about $50, but you only need one. I choose it because it has a lock open poistion which makes it a breeze attaching and detaching it the main rope. Flick the switch and its on. The other thing I liked is the thumb release position which is key in descending from the stand. Don't have to worry about faulty tying using these. This WILL dig in the rope if you happen to fall. My partner got one which is very nice through a construction supplier though. It's just not as ergonomic (spelling?) as mine and is much heavier.
(http://window-cleaning-supply.com/images/big-b07r-blue.jpg)
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Thanks, appreciate the help. Rusty
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BobCo 1965 is right on , faulty tying can be a problem, practice the knots, inspect your rope often. If you do all that; in my opinion the Friction hitches are far superior, i don't know anyone up here that makes a living in the trees that rely on the mechanical device, they are a machine and they can fail...if practiced enough the knots and your brain will never let you down!
BD
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i don't know anyone up here that makes a living in the trees that rely on the mechanical device,
That is definetely not me and I wouldn't even pretend to be confident enough to trust my life in my knot tying abilities. :) Actually, I hope I don't ever have to trust my life in either system. But am I using a system that is very effective. Effective enough for rock climbers and construction workers who are going much higher then just trees.
The way I see it is 90% of tree stand hunters are not using either system which is a big shame. Lives can be saved by using either system. I have no interest in arguing which system is better. Both systems can save you if used correctly and I stress correctly. Choose the one that is most appropriate for your owm situation. Point is use it and be safe!
Every year, I know someone who falls. And it's a shame that it can be prevented.
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I agree Bob, well said.
BD
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I use a hangman's noose on me neck for a safety line when hunting way up in tress, so the fall'll kill me quick.
Not bust me up where I can't hunt, or anything else.
Great and usefull knot!
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Great how to site for all kinds of knots.
http://www.animatedknots.com/
Steve
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Looks like there might be a bow or 2 in that locust .Did you save some for Luke?
Good job on the tutorial BD good info and pics,thanks for sharing.
I believe Lee Valley sells a book on knots through there mail order store.
John
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Has anyone had critters chew up their rope if left out? I once left a rope hanging from my practice stand in the yard and something gnawed on it in several places. I would caution about leaving a mainline rope out for the season because of this.
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Always check your rope! , very good call, I have found that as long as it can free hang a bit the critters don't bother with it much. If it is laying tight to the trunk they may.
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Maybe I missed it somewhere but what was the best rope material for this? I understand the smooth diamond braid part.
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climbing or arborist rope is the best, don't skimp on your rope, a good rope will last a long time in this type of application.
BD
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Question,'Arborist rope'?, What diameter sizes should be considered for the purpose of ascending/decending from treestands? I very rarely go higher than 16' so I assume 50' of rope will suffice. Something else, what dia. should the hitchline be, same as the mainline?
Great safety system!
Rusty
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Hey thanks guys,
I was looking at $40 ascenders. This will do the trick nicely. I figure after 30 years of stand hunting the odds are catching up for a fall.
DonD
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7/16ths, or 1/2" will be fine. the hitchline can be a bit less money. I use a braided polyester rope that is rated for 1800 lbs. it is more than adequate for treestand use.
To be supersafe, cut a 6' piece if the mainline off and use it.
BD
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"i don't know anyone up here that makes a living in the trees that rely on the mechanical device, they are a machine and they can fail...if practiced enough the knots and your brain will never let you down!" :)
- the tens of thousands of big wall climbers and alpinists that use those "mechanical devices" trust their lives to them daily. Failures occur but almost universally with the operator, not the device. For those of you who move in to your stand in the dark (probably on half a cup of coffee) and wish to ascend to your stand in safety, seriously consider a petzl (not pretzl!) ascender. I believe CMI, Camp, and others make equally good ascenders as well. You only need one, you can wrap them with tape to keep them quiet, and when in your stand you can put them in your fanny pack or cargo pocket in your pants. I've used these ascenders on walls where trees look like tiny shrubs below. For simply adding safety to climbing to a tree stand, basic instruction is all you need. Not taking anything away from a prusik (no flaming please), but an ascender is easier to learn to use than tying a knot! And one will last you a lifetime (no pun intended).
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Originally posted by Karl:
"i don't know anyone up here that makes a living in the trees that rely on the mechanical device, they are a machine and they can fail...if practiced enough the knots and your brain will never let you down!" :)
- the tens of thousands of big wall climbers and alpinists that use those "mechanical devices" trust their lives to them daily. Failures occur but almost universally with the operator, not the device. For those of you who move in to your stand in the dark (probably on half a cup of coffee) and wish to ascend to your stand in safety, seriously consider a petzl (not pretzl!) ascender. I believe CMI, Camp, and others make equally good ascenders as well. You only need one, you can wrap them with tape to keep them quiet, and when in your stand you can put them in your fanny pack or cargo pocket in your pants. I've used these ascenders on walls where trees look like tiny shrubs below. For simply adding safety to climbing to a tree stand, basic instruction is all you need. Not taking anything away from a prusik (no flaming please), but an ascender is easier to learn to use than tying a knot! And one will last you a lifetime (no pun intended).
I agree with this. Petzl make some very small units now and it is easier to avoid operator error with one of these rather than tying a knot in the dark.
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Both work, I can tie the knot with my eyes closed now. :bigsmyl:
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Thanx for all the good info. keith
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There is no need to tie a knot in the dark a climbing caribiner hooked into the prussic knot is all that is needed. That quick,that simple.
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Rico, many cavers have messed up big adding a carabiner into their knot rig. (you are talking about incorporating the biner into the knot as a sort of handle?) They are not allowed in climbing competition either. Plus it is one more thing to clank around, and cold in the winter. On the other hand, if Rico is talking about keeping a biner for your seat tie in, I heartily agree with not fidgeting with your seat attachment point in the dark.
I own and use mechanical ascenders for caving, where one may have to ascend up hundreds of feet of rope, but when hunting revert to the knots. Been using them for 20+ years now. They are light, quiet, cheap, and multitask.
My favorite variation is the helical knot. It works easier and the continual retying forces you to inspect your cordage. My old prussik loops got pretty frayed before I would made new ones.
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KyGal mine is a simple as simple get for a safety belt. Most of my treestand setups are in evergreen trees with multi limbs below me and I hook my rope short so that I can not fall below my plantform,anyhow I just have a 2" web belt and put my carabiner through that when I climb I bring the carabiner to my front hook to the prussik and climb the tree sliding the knot as I go. Once in the tree without removing the carabiner I simply slide the carabiner around the belt to my back draw up any slack and hunt reverse in the same way. At no time am I ever detached from my safety line. Wish I had your knowledge of knots KyGal one thing I'm not sure of is when making the loop for the prussik,what kind of knot do you tie the end of the ropes with,is a figure 8 sufficent.Thanks
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A figure 8 is sufficient, especially if you trace it through like a water or tape knot - with the tail ends going in opposite directions through the knot, if that makes sense. The best knot I like for a pair of loops you're gonna use for a long while is the double fisherman's knot. Describing things in words is tough, but basically lay your cord in front of you, with the ends lapped past each other with enough extra to tie the knot. Take one end and tie an overhand around the other tail, passing the end through the overhand loop an extra time. Cinch it onto the line and slide it over to make room for the other half of the knot. You now take the other tail end and do the same thing on the other side. Once you dress the knot it will take an act of Congress to untie. The advantage is that the part of the knot bearing your weight only goes through gradual bends, not a total reverse as in most other knots. Sharp bends in knots constitute the weak points, or failure points, in your rig. These really become important in the event of a fall.
A great inexpensive primer on knots for climbing is John Long, Ropes, Knots and Slings for Climbers. If you want the full details of modern American SRT, get On Rope by Bruce Smith & Alan Padgett.
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Thanks for the info KyGal I think along with the info you gave and a little surfing I'll understand,I'll check out what you say but will probably end up staying with the figure 8,don't know what a water or tape knot is but I thankyou for your time. Might check out those authors you mentioned also.
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"On Rope" is treated like a bible among a lot of cavers over here.
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Let's be safe out there. Just a reminder and for anyone new. Good info hear.