Post by: bm22 on April 06, 2011, 12:44:00 PM
Wouldnt this also hold true for arrows, a heavier arrow should penetrate far better than a lighter arrow.. Just food for thought.
Post by: Orion on April 06, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
Post by: Stumpkiller on April 06, 2011, 01:46:00 PM
Accurate and sharp are the first two important attributes and fast/slow or heavy/light follow a ways back.
I thought 10-12 gpp was mid-range anymore. I shoot 630 gr arrows with 125 gr points. They would look like what guys had in their quivers in 1939.
Post by: Bob B. on April 06, 2011, 02:03:00 PM
However, heavy vs light arrows are also relative. I guess it deprends what you are hunting, also the mechanical advantage of your broad head .... always assuming you are getting optimum flight and the head is hunting sharp.
So, as a rule of thumb heavier arrows have more monentum or slug force than light, thus are harder to stop, thus have more penetration. I guess the medium of the target must be considered. If no large bones are encountered, an arrow in the mid 400 grains area moving at moderate trad speeds (if placed properly) will get - er done. If larger animals (more mass) and or less than perfect shot placement, heavier is better within reason.
So yes as a rule of thumb, heavier can be better. Lots of guys here do advocate for at least 10 grains per pound of draw like Orion mentioned. I love to shoot my bows with around 9 grains per pound of draw because it looks so cool with a real fast arrow. I hunt around 11 grains per pound of draw however. It likely is not necessary as I am hunting deer, but I never know if a hit will be marginal or not, so I hedge my bet with a heavyier arrow and high mechanical advantage 2 blade head.
Bob.
Post by: clayton95 on April 06, 2011, 02:10:00 PM
Post by: Shawn Leonard on April 06, 2011, 02:12:00 PM
Post by: ishoot4thrills on April 06, 2011, 02:18:00 PM
Post by: seven crows on April 06, 2011, 02:29:00 PM
Post by: Schafer on April 06, 2011, 02:31:00 PM
Schafer
Post by: OS on April 06, 2011, 02:32:00 PM
Post by: Mint on April 06, 2011, 02:35:00 PM
Post by: Jason R. Wesbrock on April 06, 2011, 03:30:00 PM
Post by: Zradix on April 06, 2011, 04:14:00 PM
Basically you can take the wt of the arrow and multiply it by the speed. Whichever arrow gives you the highest number has the most energy.
This is a really basic explanation. There are other variables to be considered....like how far away the target is.
Most bows seem to hit a sweet spot of efficiency at about 11.3 grns/#.
That being said...A slow heavy arrow will lose energy slower as it travels down the range than a fast light arrow as it travels down the range.
I know you only asked about penetration.
There are many other things to consider of course.
Heavy = quiet = more drop = more compensating...
Lighter = louder = less drop = less compensating....
I love trad archery!
Just get a setup about 10-12 grn/# that shoots straight (tuned) put a sharp blade on it and pick a spot.
:thumbsup:
Post by: Night Wing on April 06, 2011, 04:24:00 PM
I experimented and shot this morning with a 100 grain point, instead of a my usual 125 grain point weight, for my 37# bow. It worked, but I had to change the brace height to make it work.
Post by: Lost Arra on April 06, 2011, 04:33:00 PM
My final weight comes down to how the arrow is flying but I'm usually between 9-12gpp.
If you are shooting deer at reasonable distances it probably doesn't make any difference because either arrow will make two holes if well placed.
Arrows that are too light can be hard on the bow.
Post by: 1/4 away on April 06, 2011, 04:42:00 PM
Post by: lpcjon2 on April 06, 2011, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: zwickeyman on April 06, 2011, 04:55:00 PM
Like others have said, It depends on the animal and distances you will be shooting.If you are hunting Deer from a tree stand and shooting 15 yards max. I would probably shoot 12 GPP. I hunt alot of open country Muledeer and might shoot out to 30-35 yards and like a little flatter arrow so I shoot 9 GPP.
Post by: Shawn Leonard on April 06, 2011, 05:49:00 PM
Post by: Spookeytooth on April 06, 2011, 05:59:00 PM
I use the term performance, based on penetration and overall shootability and not so much speed. In my opinion good tuning and FOC weight is paramount.
Post by: zwickeyman on April 06, 2011, 06:06:00 PM
Post by: oxnam on April 06, 2011, 06:09:00 PM
Now with archery targets at unknown yardages, I think it is easier to be accurate with lighter arrows because of the reduced trajectory. Now we love to talk about the freight train arrows and I really question whether they are actually necessary for animals like deer. But if someone is shooting a light weight bow or less efficient bow, the arrow weight becomes more important.
If a 45# bow with a 450 gr arrow (10gpp) will blow through a deer, why should I shoot a 650 gr arrow from my 65# bow? Why not use the 450 gr and take advantage of the improved speed and trajectory and reduce the vertical margin of error?
I would think 450gr and 650gr are similar to the lead and steel, and like before dead is dead. Now if you start talking bigger animals, then Dr. Ashby's research and heavier arrows become more important.
What I don't understand is if a 50 pound bow with a 500 grain arrow will kill anything in North America, why would so many think shooting 7.7 gpp is unacceptable (500gr 65# bow). It's the same arrow, just going faster translating into even better penetration(let's assume that both are tuned properly). Something to think about.
Post by: copperhead95 on April 06, 2011, 06:09:00 PM
Post by: zwickeyman on April 06, 2011, 06:14:00 PM
Post by: Shawn Leonard on April 06, 2011, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: frassettor on April 06, 2011, 06:19:00 PM
Post by: oxnam on April 06, 2011, 06:22:00 PM
Quote
If you are hunting Deer from a tree stand and shooting 15 yards max. I would probably shoot 12 GPP. I hunt alot of open country Muledeer and might shoot out to 30-35 yards and like a little flatter arrow so I shoot 9 GPP. [/QB]Exactly. I am hunting out west also and am more concerned about trajectory than someone that is expecting a 12-17 yard shot.
Post by: Bill Carlsen on April 06, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
Post by: Shawn Leonard on April 06, 2011, 06:42:00 PM
Post by: Jesse_83 on April 06, 2011, 06:46:00 PM
Post by: ishoot4thrills on April 06, 2011, 06:50:00 PM
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
:o And on......and on........and on...........
Post by: FrankM on April 06, 2011, 06:55:00 PM
Post by: lpcjon2 on April 06, 2011, 06:56:00 PM
Post by: smoke1953 on April 06, 2011, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: sawtoothscream on April 06, 2011, 07:43:00 PM
Post by: JimB on April 06, 2011, 08:21:00 PM
He also made a point of saying that there needed to be a balance between arrow weight for penetration and trajectory for being able to hit game at longer ranges,mentioning out to 40 yds.Those were self bow days.People took a lot longer shots at game in those days than most today would think is ethical.
Fred chose 10 grs per pound as the ideal balance between penetration and trajectory.Keep in mind,later,with laminated bows,Fred Bear took shots on game out to 100 yds.
If they were disagreeing then about light arrow,heavy arrow in 1943,and we are still talking about it 68 years later-there will never be a consensus.
Use the combination of arrow weight and speed that suits you and have fun.Probably the majority of bowhunters are shooting small to moderate sized whitetails and most setups with a tuned arrow and sharp broadhead will work fine,so it is a non-issue.Some will hunt bigger,tougher game but I have a feeling common sense will prevail most of the time.
Post by: oxnam on April 06, 2011, 08:39:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JimB:and I thought we were getting close to a concensus... :thumbsup:
If they were disagreeing then about light arrow,heavy arrow in 1943,and we are still talking about it 68 years later-there will never be a consensus.
Post by: AdamH on April 06, 2011, 08:40:00 PM
Post by: AdamH on April 06, 2011, 08:46:00 PM
Post by: oxnam on April 06, 2011, 08:47:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JimB:That is my point about shooting a heavier weight with lighter arrows (interesting to see actual data about it). Penetration is very slightly better with huge improvements in trajectory for the heavier bow and lighter arrows. For the country and game I hunt, I'll take the heavier bow. Which would you pick to shoot 30 yards?
Fred made a point of saying that the 61# bow with a 500 gr arrow only out-impacted the 45# with a 600 gr arrow by 1%.
Did it give any indication of the yardages tested or how they measured "impact"?
Post by: 30pointbuck on April 06, 2011, 08:57:00 PM
Post by: huntmaster80 on April 06, 2011, 09:04:00 PM
Post by: Javi on April 06, 2011, 09:05:00 PM
The thing is that usually ends up between 10 and 12 grains per pound, I do believe in FOC and generally choose arrows and point weights that will put me in the 18% - 20% range when finished..
Post by: YORNOC on April 06, 2011, 09:23:00 PM
I agree with quite a bit on both sides. But in the end for me, I'm comfortable shooting the heaviest setup that flys the best for me. If I had two setups that flew perfectly one lighter and one heavier, I'd want the extra weight as insurance.
Post by: Shawn Leonard on April 06, 2011, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: Friend on April 06, 2011, 10:29:00 PM
My position is not to set-up for the least I can get away. My set-ups are geared for the most I can get away with.
Post by: copperhead95 on April 06, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
Post by: Friend on April 06, 2011, 10:44:00 PM
Post by: woodcock on April 06, 2011, 11:01:00 PM
Post by: SAM E. STEPHENS on April 06, 2011, 11:28:00 PM
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on April 07, 2011, 01:35:00 AM
There is one item that never gets talked about in the light versus heavy debate and that is wounding percentages of light versus heavy arrows. Angled shots, animals turning at the shot. string jumping, etc.... Lots of things lead to lost animals. Heavy arrows help when bad hits happen. Everything else being equal a heavier arrow simply penetrates better. deeper penetratqon on a bad shot can lead to a recovered animal.
I keep hearing how everyone blows thru animals with light arrows. I believe their stories, because it does happen. What is missing is the number of wounded animals they have lost over the years which also happens. I bet that rate is higher with light arrows.
I think it is safe to assume for this particular arguments sake that everyone tunes to the best of their abilities and sharpens to the same level. So that part of the argument seems moot. For each individual shooter with arrows tuned to their best ability and sharpened to their best ability the heavier arrow is going to penetrate further than the light one.
I find it makes more sense for me to shoot one arrow set up. Since I hunt elk, bear, and deer, I like to use 10.5 gpp. I have heavier arrows set up for future hunts in Africa and Oz.
Post by: L. E. Carroll on April 07, 2011, 02:57:00 AM
In the event I hunted with a rifle, I would definately prefer 30-06 at 2700 fps with a 180 gn bullet over a 22-250 with 50 gns and 4000 fps?
There is a good reason the P/H's used heavy/slow .450-.600 bore rifles in Africa... They penetrate. Especially where thick hide and bone may become an issue.. 50gns. at 4000 blows up on the shoulder..
How many hunting shows have you seen with some guy shooting a whitetail with a compound that shows the deer running from the shot with 1/2 arrow sticking out on the entrance side? With his light arrow/high velocity set up ?
Over and over, we read successful posts here telling us how trad archers kill with a total pass thru, or at least full penetration, with arrows in the 10-12 gpp range [ vrs 6-8 ] :readit: :deadhorse:
Gene
Post by: champ38 on April 07, 2011, 07:30:00 AM
Post by: HUNT 24/7 on April 07, 2011, 08:09:00 AM
Post by: The Whittler on April 07, 2011, 09:03:00 PM
How can you say a 480gr to 500gr arrow from a 50 pound bow not penetrate as good as a 600gr to 650gr arrow from the same bow.
Say what you want a well tuned arrow with in the recommended 8gr to 10th pet bow weight will do the gob jest fine thank you.
Post by: The Whittler on April 07, 2011, 09:06:00 PM
How can you say a 480gr to 500gr arrow from a 50 pound bow not penetrate as good as a 600gr to 650gr arrow from the same bow.
Say what you want a well tuned arrow with in the recommended 8gr to 10th pet bow weight will do the gob gets fine thank you.
Post by: The Whittler on April 07, 2011, 09:07:00 PM
Post by: Van/TX on April 07, 2011, 09:19:00 PM
Post by: SL on April 07, 2011, 09:40:00 PM
Having said that I find most of my arrows come out about 9 to 10 grains per pound.
SL
Post by: JDunlap on April 07, 2011, 10:27:00 PM
Another issue that I haven't seen mentioned that I have been wondering about: Do heavier arrows shoot better in the wind? We have a lot of wind here in Oklahoma and it makes things a little tricky...what say ye?
Post by: chopx2 on April 07, 2011, 10:43:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AdamH:I've helped track a couple Fast light comppound rage BH shot deer hit in the shoulder or high in the shoulder/neck area (very close shot)...none found even with a dog, both probably survived and in one case the arrow backed out and there was only about 3 inches of penetration.
I know, not pertinent here, but I witnessed my Bud shoot a fat 6 pt. in Md. last year with a "screamin" wheelie bow, 30 yard shot, dead on the shoulder goin in tight behind other comin out, Buck stumbled 32 yards, dead in 3-4 seconds, I took that "pass thru" arrow {soda straw size carbon w/85grn. Thunderhead} home and weighed it on my Digital scale ...... 370 Grains, Total ... Obviously, Speed means something ... I know, Apples to Oranges, but it was Pretty Impressive to say the least ...
My 675gr arrow with a hair popping sharp Grizzly last year blew a hole through the ball and socket of a doe's femur big enough to fit my finger through and still went another 13"through to the other side. I made a bad shot, but she was down in less than 50yds. I'd hate to have that happen with a 330fps 400gr arrow.
Yes straight and sharp are a given no matter what arrow or bow you shoot. Why take a chance?
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on April 08, 2011, 01:25:00 AM
Whittler, A body in motions tends to stay in motion. The heavier the body the longer it will stay in motion when it impacts another object. Physics tells you that the heavier arrow will penetrate better, as does all of the Ashby testing and a whole bunch of dangerous game hunters. This one is not even in question. It is firmly proven.
Post by: oxnam on April 08, 2011, 04:04:00 AM
Here is the excerpt from Dr. Ashby's 2008 Part 6 report, but you really should read through it: "Few bowhunters who've taken Cape or Asian buffalo, me included, would have ever considered any 655 grain arrow capable of consistently providing adequate penetration on massive bodied buffalo bulls. Yet here we are, confronted with one that has done so. On every thorax hit this 655 grain Ultra-EFOC arrow fully traversed the thorax and imbedded deeply in the off-side rib;"
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update6.pdf
Post by: tpanic41 on April 08, 2011, 10:43:00 AM
I shoot 7.5 per #, get perfect flight, and shoot through bear and elk with no problem!
Post by: JimL on April 08, 2011, 01:46:00 PM
Post by: Earl E. Nov...mber on April 08, 2011, 01:52:00 PM
Post by: oxnam on April 08, 2011, 02:24:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Earl E. Nov...mber:Sure. Heavy and fast is relative so you should be fine. Just make sure you only shoot with kids flinging tiny arrows. Then you will be sure that your arrow is heavy and fast. :bigsmyl:
Can I have heavy and fast?
Post by: Javi on April 08, 2011, 02:39:00 PM
Post by: Don Stokes on April 08, 2011, 03:37:00 PM
Post by: CG on April 08, 2011, 06:12:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:That's got to be pretty rare to have 2 deer and a coyote lined up for that shot, huh? :)
I killed 2 deer and a coyote a few years back..... Passed thru both deer and entered coyotes left ham and came out up to the fletch in front of off shoulder
Seriously, though, I agree with you.
Post by: Bob B. on April 09, 2011, 12:55:00 AM
--------------------
I do not understand. The laws of physics absolutly apply to archery. What do you mean? If you PM me a question, I would be happy to send you a reply that may explain just how physics applies. A bow is a lever. An arrow is a cylindar, an 2 blade broad head is basically 2 inclinded plains. It is easy to caluculate kenetic energy and slug force if the FPS and grain weight is known. Mechanical advantage can be calculated if the dementions of the broad head are known. This is physics. Also we know the gravitational pull of the Earth has a constant due to its mass, generalized as 9.8 meters per second per second. So the flight of a bullet or an arrow is basicaly the same in seconds before it hits the Earth if fired from the same height, it is just the distancen the projectile traveles as well as its speed that is different. We can use this to help calculate slug force (momentum). This absolutely is physics.
Speed matters as does grain weigh. FPS can be a key element as to arrow "power" thus penetration when combined with certain broad heads, and the meduim they are intended to strike, thus contributing to a leathality factor. Again, totally physics.
Bob.
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on April 09, 2011, 01:21:00 AM
The laws of Physics are just that laws. We can argue until the cows come home, a heavier arrow for the average archer will still penetrate better no matter the argument made. I find that those who argue for light arrows have very rarely shot heavy arrows into very many animals.
As before I say shoot what you like and want. And enjoy the process. I have no feelings for or against light arrows. That is a personal choice.
I do say, don't try and claim a light arrow at 10 fps faster will penetrate better than the heavier arrow. Physics, testing, field hunting experiments, and if you read the full Ashby reports proven testing shows that is not true for any standard arrow as discussed here. That bird just wont fly!
I have spent enough years using physics in the field of engineering to fully understand the math and if someone would like to post up arrow weights and speeds to match the 10 fps change, I will be happy to run the impulse momentum equations to resolve the issue. Again you cannot change the laws of physics. They always work.
Post by: Bjorn on April 09, 2011, 01:48:00 AM
Making it hit where you want is art; and important too?
Light and fast-heavy and not so fast? Good things to ponder and work on.
At the end of the day it is archery basics that kills-art trumps physics-yay! LOL!
Post by: ishoot4thrills on April 09, 2011, 05:37:00 AM
Post by: Javi on April 09, 2011, 10:22:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bob B.:Bob, it was sarcasm…. I’m a design engineer
The laws of physics never seem to apply to archery...
--------------------
I do not understand. The laws of physics absolutly apply to archery. What do you mean? If you PM me a question, I would be happy to send you a reply that may explain just how physics applies. A bow is a lever. An arrow is a cylindar, an 2 blade broad head is basically 2 inclinded plains. It is easy to caluculate kenetic energy and slug force if the FPS and grain weight is known. Mechanical advantage can be calculated if the dementions of the broad head are known. This is physics. Also we know the gravitational pull of the Earth has a constant due to its mass, generalized as 9.8 meters per second per second. So the flight of a bullet or an arrow is basicaly the same in seconds before it hits the Earth if fired from the same height, it is just the distancen the projectile traveles as well as its speed that is different. We can use this to help calculate slug force (momentum). This absolutely is physics.
Speed matters as does grain weigh. FPS can be a key element as to arrow "power" thus penetration when combined with certain broad heads, and the meduim they are intended to strike, thus contributing to a leathality factor. Again, totally physics.
Bob.
Don caught it.. . :D
Every day on any archery forum regardless of whether it is a traditional archery forum or a compound forum; if hunting is involved there will be many who clearly state and adamantly defend the concept that the laws of physics do not apply to archery equipment. It’s especially unique to traditional archery where we are dealing with comparatively slow moving projectiles and no matter the analogy, or the science used to explain the physics there will always be those who despite the best efforts continue to sacrifice at the altar of speed at all costs…
I think I'll quit trying to explain it to them and let them continue happily on their path.. :dunno:
Post by: AdamH on April 09, 2011, 05:45:00 PM
Post by: Jason R. Wesbrock on April 09, 2011, 06:17:00 PM
It has always confused me somewhat the extent that folks will go to debate (discuss, argue, whatever) such minor variations of arrow weight, especially when it comes to hunting whitetail deer. If shooting 700- or 800-grain arrows gives one an increased level of confidence, then on an individual level it makes sense to use those arrows. But several generations of recreational bowhunting history are there for examination, modern attempts to rewrite it notwithstanding. And no, it doesn’t take a 650-grain arrow to kill a whitetail deer, or anything else on this continent for that matter. To me, this heavy versus light arrow debate falls into the category of things that matter more on paper than in the real world.
Post by: Terry Green on April 09, 2011, 07:14:00 PM
And this statement is repeated over and over and don't believe that to be true. "A heavier arrow will always penetrate better".
If you run the momentum numbers on a 50# bow with arrows starting out with 400 grains and go up in weight and running the speed numbers, you will see at some point the next heavier arrow delivers LESS momentum due to decreased speed to the point were the momentum is again LESS. (at least it did with my numbers unless I goofed) So in that case, the lighter of those two will penetrate better. There is a window of performance with any given bow and arrow weight. Too light and it decreases....same with too heavy.
Also, you should consider the game you are chasing and how flighty they are. An 800 grain arrow wont penetrate very good at all if the animal is in Detroit when the arrow gets there.
I personally shoot 580 grain arrows most of the time...sometimes 630 when just shooting hogs. Speeds of 175-185 @27.5 draw, and I don't have penetration problems on the animals I chase. Although, I have no problem going lighter when in TX shooting those wired whitetails. I like to penetrate the earth AFTER passing through the deer. ;)
Post by: FrankM on April 09, 2011, 07:35:00 PM
Post by: monterey on April 09, 2011, 10:36:00 PM
Never have thought about it in GPP terms. Just calculated mine and my 650 grain arrows are 13 GPP in my 50# bow. Wonder how 8 to 10 GPP would work out in a 35# bow? (legal for deer and elk where I hunt :eek: ) So, at 8 GPP that would be a 280 grain arrow! Still only 350 grain at 10 GPP.
We like to throw Ashby quotes around, but truly, to understand what Ashby is saying you have to read all he has written on this topic beginning with the Natal (sp) study, right up to his most recent release last December. It's a lot of reading but well worth it regardless of what conclusions you personally come to in the end.
Post by: JDunlap on April 10, 2011, 12:19:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
JDunlap, Heavier arrows do fly better in the wind. Especially if you use HFOC and smaller fletchings.
Whittler, A body in motions tends to stay in motion. The heavier the body the longer it will stay in motion when it impacts another object. Physics tells you that the heavier arrow will penetrate better, as does all of the Ashby testing and a whole bunch of dangerous game hunters. This one is not even in question. It is firmly proven.
Post by: JDunlap on April 10, 2011, 12:21:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JDunlap:Thanks Rag,
QuoteOriginally posted by Ragnarok Forge:[/b]
JDunlap, Heavier arrows do fly better in the wind. Especially if you use HFOC and smaller fletchings.
Whittler, A body in motions tends to stay in motion. The heavier the body the longer it will stay in motion when it impacts another object. Physics tells you that the heavier arrow will penetrate better, as does all of the Ashby testing and a whole bunch of dangerous game hunters. This one is not even in question. It is firmly proven.
That's what I figured about the heavier arrows and the hfoc, but the smaller fletching I didn't think of, makes sense.
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on April 10, 2011, 01:14:00 AM
Post by: Friend on April 10, 2011, 10:47:00 AM
We need to do some homework ourselves. Relying totally on what is being published may in fact be perfect for one and may be detrimental to others. My continued test in results have me temporarily parked at the upper middle of the road in referance to my own personal set-up.
It may not always easy to discern what Dr. Ashby's studies and results can be effectively applied to enhance our specific needs. We must do some of our own verification.
Different ggp rcommendations are recommended as having a bows maximum efficientcy maximized. Took Dr. Ashby ~17 gpp with a 40# @ 20# recurve to achieve very positive results on the buffs. My arrow speed estimation would be ~144 fps.
Personally I strive for the heaviest gpp, with my 51 -53# set-ups, that I can achieve that fits well w/i my site window at my effective hunting range and still be able to practise at moderatley extended ranges.
Note: Tuned and sharp BH's are assumed and my set-up may be modified according to particular species pursued.
Your own testing and verification will enable you to ascertain what is best suited for you.
Post by: monterey on April 10, 2011, 02:44:00 PM
Post by: Thumper Dunker on April 10, 2011, 03:15:00 PM