Alright, me hearties... a question to ponder...
Actually, two questions.
I was speaking with an archer at an event recently and he had a couple observations that set me back on my heels a little.
First, he said he saw his new arrows drifting to the right on the 60yd target. He said that of course, this is caused by the right wing feathers used on the arrows. If they'd been left wing they would be drifting left.
Huh? Never heard that one before :confused:
Second, I mentioned that his arrows had been fletched on a table of twelve jigs. He was a little put out by this and advised me to start using just one jig for the entire set of arrows. Because, of course, each jig is going to be slightly different and that will change the impact point of the arrows from one another.
I agree that each jig will be slightly different no matter how hard I try to have them all set the same. But I can't see this making any difference for a traditional archer using a basic recurve or longbow. A top flight Olympic archer with state-of-the-art gear... ok. But not the average archer, even if he is fairly good.
You guys who sell arrows, how many jigs do you use for an order of a dozen?
What say you, O gurus of all things archery? :notworthy:
Guy
Seems everyone's a scientist today!Trad archery's not to get too technical or it might lose it's appeal.Get out there and shoot what flies purdy off your shelf and learn when to recieve and disreguard advice from others.As for me I like either left or right but like to see just a nock as it travels.Have fun!
pffft.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Grey Taylor:
Alright, me hearties... a question to ponder...
Actually, two questions.
I was speaking with an archer at an event recently and he had a couple observations that set me back on my heels a little.
First, he said he saw his new arrows drifting to the right on the 60yd target. He said that of course, this is caused by the right wing feathers used on the arrows. If they'd been left wing they would be drifting left.
Huh? Never heard that one before :confused:
HAH! what nonsense! immediately disgregard anything else spewing from this "archer".
Second, I mentioned that his arrows had been fletched on a table of twelve jigs. He was a little put out by this and advised me to start using just one jig for the entire set of arrows. Because, of course, each jig is going to be slightly different and that will change the impact point of the arrows from one another.
I agree that each jig will be slightly different no matter how hard I try to have them all set the same. But I can't see this making any difference for a traditional archer using a basic recurve or longbow. A top flight Olympic archer with state-of-the-art gear... ok. But not the average archer, even if he is fairly good.
You guys who sell arrows, how many jigs do you use for an order of a dozen?
What say you, O gurus of all things archery? :notworthy:
stay far away from this self-proclaimed "archery guru", he know not of what he speaks.
Guy
Sounds like nonsense to me.
OMG!
My spider radar is telling me to avoid this thread, but I can't help myself... :D
If the fletching is reasonably aligned then it shouldn't hurt the traditional archer using feathers, put a rest and vanes into the deal and you may have a little upset if the jigs aren't aligned well for that shaft with a helical..
I was playing around this past weekend setting a Bitz up for some 5" shield cut on Axis shafts and changed the dials between each fletch so that the helical was different on each feather, by the third shaft I had it really close to what I wanted and finished the fourth shaft which looked great with the base laying flat and wrapping nicely around the shaft... I only had a couple of feathers left and decided to go ahead and leave the early attempts on the shafts until I got more. Sunday morning I went out to shoot and grabbed those shafts, number 3 and 4 went dead center and a bare shaft followed right along, but shafts 1 and 2 will not group... after a couple of repeat shots to check if it was me or the shafts I stripped the fletching and shot them again... bang I now had 3 bare shafts grouped with 2 fletched shafts.. As a note: all 5 shafts were within .003 in spine and spline aligned with the stiff side for finger paradox.
So while I don't believe that using a wheel to fletch a dozen shafts will cause a problem for the average shooter be they traditional or compound it does make a difference if the fletching isn't aligned correctly on the shafts... at least in this instance it did.. Oh yeah... these shafts are slightly stiff so they were not clearing the shelf as well as they will when I finish playing with them so that probably contributed to the upset as well..
it would take a major serious misalignment of fletch offset or helical mismatch to make any kinda difference at trad hunting distances. who hasn't roved with arrows that were missing pieces of fletch and still had consistent accuracy? i call bogus on all this mis-match stuff for trad hunting archers.
"clearance" is an entirely different matter that needs to be addressed and worked on with each arrow, bow and archer, but mostly none of this is gonna deeply affect a trad bowhunter looking to make kills at 20 yards, +/- 5 yards or so.
"target" CAN be a whole different story with regards to fletch type and placement. i shot "serious" competitive archery for decades and when yer flying shafts out to 90 meters you'd best have those missiles well built, aligned, weighed and balanced - and yer shooting head screwed on real tight. but we're not target archers, right? :D
If it isn't happening to you then don't sweat the small stuff!
Let those who believe in what they feel is the truth to them, believe in the things that make them feel important to themselves regardless if it has truth.JMHO
I never had such experience with that kind of flight issue.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
but we're not target archers, right? :D
Now Rob, once a traget archer, always a target archer.... :biglaugh:
Besides... I believe that once you begin the draw, the hunting stops and you are shooting a target..
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
but we're not target archers, right? :D
Now Rob, once a traget archer, always a target archer.... :biglaugh:
Besides... I believe that once you begin the draw, the hunting stops and you are shooting a target.. [/b]
semantics, semantics, semantics .... :D
I'm right handed and fletch my arrows with a 6 arrow Jo-Jan MultiFletcher. If one of my arrows accidentally shoots to the left, it's because I did a "short draw snap shot" and didn't come to full draw.
Guess we all better fletch straight, no Right or Left! :saywhat:
Rob is absolutely right. Complete BS, Grey. Now, if you fletch RW feathers with a LW jig...
EVEN IF this were true, I'm not a consistant enough "machine" to shoot the difference. Practice well, stalk close, pick a spot, and let-r-rip!!!
I believe he's probably correct. The right-wing will crawl towards the right because the air is less dense above the arrow than below and that fletch has better purchase in the air. Just as you get prop walk on a boat. But water is much denser than air. So, if you figure the difference in air density over the height of two inches and the corresponding drift that works out to . . . 0.0000001756" over 20 yards. So compensate that much and you'll be fine.
He's probably right in theory, but the effect of air currents, release, nock squareness, arrow grain variances, weight differences, your own pulse, etc. will be much greater.
As for 12 different jigs? Probably again true in theory but not noticable in practice.
So, if he reuses one arrow and fires it repeatedly at a target does it always go in the same hole? ;)
Why is it always the arrow thats the problem and not the Indian?
Good one Stokes! LOL
Sheesh--It's not that complicated......
QuoteOriginally posted by Gary Logsdon:
EVEN IF this were true, I'm not a consistant enough "machine" to shoot the difference. Practice well, stalk close, pick a spot, and let-r-rip!!!
Werd. Looks to me as if this "expert" was simply supplying you with a "Humble Brag" about how damn good he is.
Sounds like he needed excuses for his difficulties.
Bitz makes a tool that when set will set a hundred jigs to the same off set.
Work hard, ask questions, some times there are several opinions on a question, but they are opinions, not neccessarily fact.
A lot of what we do is fact, a lot is trial and error. It is all a learning process, no one has all the answers, but some have a great deal of knowledge to pass on, and what you derive from them is up to you.
You seem to have a pretty good grasp on what is and isn't worth listening to.
Good luck.
I can't comment on the LW/RW thing. It's a new one to me. But I certainly wouldn't disparage him over the advice about using a single fletching jig. That's been standard advice from a lot of top-end shooters for a long time.
In reality, can anyone here shoot the difference? Not likely. At worst, that piece of advice falls into the same category as telling someone that arrows with .001 straightness are more consistent than those with .003 -- technically correct, but outside the scope of the shooter's ability. So while his advice may have been somewhat misplaced, at least it wasn't detrimental, which is more than I can say for a lot of the advice I've read on various message boards over the years.
Ok this guy is killing me...spin drift in a rifle bullit is what this so called expert is trying to bring to archery..and it just dont fly..I call myself a good archer and with trad. bow and great matched arrows I MAY shoot a 3foot group on a good day at 60 yards so I just cant really see that my spin drift is my problem...But hey maybe I can use that next time I miss at 30 yards..SPIN DRIFT fairy got me...LOL
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
I can't comment on the LW/RW thing. It's a new one to me. But I certainly wouldn't disparage him over the advice about using a single fletching jig. That's been standard advice from a lot of top-end shooters for a long time.
In reality, can anyone here shoot the difference? Not likely. At worst, that piece of advice falls into the same category as telling someone that arrows with .001 straightness are more consistent than those with .003 -- technically correct, but outside the scope of the shooter's ability. So while his advice may have been somewhat misplaced, at least it wasn't detrimental, which is more than I can say for a lot of the advice I've read on various message boards over the years.
it always boils down to practical context. there is a chasm's worth of difference 'tween real all bow targeteers and trad bow hunters. no hunter will be ill served by using more than one jig to fletch up a dozen broadheads. true target tackle, particularly of the fita kind, is vastly different than hunting gear, and rightly so. for the most part, the character in question spouting his sage fletch advice is the real anomaly since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
Rob, " he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts."
:clapper: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth:
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth: [/b]
please, don't get me started about "target archery". there is a difference where hunting is concerned, and you betcha you can be both.
"target archery", as a void to fill when not hunting - who doesn't get into that at one point or another?
but then there's Real Serious Target Archery, where things get downright technical if not voodoo alchemy borderline insane, particularly with gear. been there, done that for 20+ years, ain't ever going back. i'm a trad bowhunter and proud of it, not a competitively serious paper/foamie puncher. to each their own, it's all good if yer havin' fun.
Me thinks the lively blighter has been hitting the rum to hard.
Wind would be a likely cause of arrow drift at 60 yards.
Drink up me hearties YO HO! :biglaugh:
I tend to overthink and analyze things myself, but this guy makes me look normal. He is way out on the fringe of reality on this one. I wish I could shoot a bow accurately enough to see a difference. That and shoot a bow bow fast enough to obtain spin drift. She would shoot flat for sure.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth: [/b]
please, don't get me started about "target archery". there is a difference where hunting is concerned, and you betcha you can be both.
"target archery", as a void to fill when not hunting - who doesn't get into that at one point or another?
but then there's Real Serious Target Archery, where things get downright technical if not voodoo alchemy borderline insane, particularly with gear. been there, done that for 20+ years, ain't ever going back. i'm a trad bowhunter and proud of it, not a competitively serious paper/foamie puncher. to each their own, it's all good if yer havin' fun. [/b]
been there myself, I shot Pro for several years until a shoulder took me out of the game.. But I still consider myself a target shooter who started and ended as a hunter..
I can't shoot well enough any more to notice but I've seen 3 grains make a big difference in POI at 90 meters, of course I don't worry about that at 20 yards..
One has to be practical in one's approach to tuning but it never hurts to know stuff.. Being a hunter and being uneducated does not necessarily have to be synonymous.
:saywhat: :laughing: :laughing: :nono:
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth: [/b]
Well put. Those two worlds are far from mutually exclusive.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth: [/b]
Well put. Those two worlds are far from mutually exclusive. [/b]
i contend they are, and for good reasons that anyone can readily see at any event where targeteers and bowhunters toe the line. if you don't understand the difference, you don't understand competitive archery.
this is NOT to say that consistent accuracy is ever second best for a hunter. however, the approach, methodologies and perhaps tackle will be different because targets don't have brains.
fred's latest book should be required reading for all.
I am gonna agree with Rob on this one.
Last weekend I went to a 3D shoot at our local club and shot with a group of traditional archers. 3 of us were hunters and were shooting stick and string with heavy arrows. The fourth shooter was shooting a FITA bow with 6.2 GPP arrows flying at 214 fps. Needless to say he was putting us all to shame.
Now the FITA shooter is a hunter and is a wonderful guy. Lots of fun, humorous, and always good for a great conversation. I love shooting with him. Needless to say he doesn't hunt with his very loud FITA bow. He does compete with it since he likes to place well or win.
Pure target archers don't seem to shoot really well when they have to crouch, lean hard, or lay down to take a hunting shot. Lots of hunter can make these shots with ease. Different tackle, different mind set, different shooting positions. Lots of nuances in this but I agree they are different animals. Good form is vital to both.
Back when I owned an archery shop & indoor lanes I had the PA state champion indoor shooter shooting in a weekly league and this topic came up. He proceeded to take 3 arrows of the same spine but one with 2" straight/no offset vanes, one with straight and offset 4" vanes and one of his hunting arrows with 5" full helical and offset vanes and shot 5 points under his own state record for the night. Feathers are even more forgiving so I think this is a bit off.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
I am gonna agree with Rob on this one.
Last weekend I went to a 3D shoot at our local club and shot with a group of traditional archers. 3 of us were hunters and were shooting stick and string with heavy arrows. The fourth shooter was shooting a FITA bow with 6.2 GPP arrows flying at 214 fps. Needless to say he was putting us all to shame.
Now the FITA shooter is a hunter and is a wonderful guy. Lots of fun, humorous, and always good for a great conversation. I love shooting with him. Needless to say he doesn't hunt with his very loud FITA bow. He does compete with it since he likes to place well or win.
Pure target archers don't seem to shoot really well when they have to crouch, lean hard, or lay down to take a hunting shot. Lots of hunter can make these shots with ease. Different tackle, different mind set, different shooting positions. Lots of nuances in this but I agree they are different animals. Good form is vital to both.
this is precisely my point, thank you.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth: [/b]
Well put. Those two worlds are far from mutually exclusive. [/b]
if you don't understand the difference, you don't understand competitive archery.
All of the state and sectional championship plaques on my wall talked it over with the dead animals in my freezer. They think I understand it just fine.
:goldtooth:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
quote:
Originally posted by Javi:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
since he's obviously in la-la target archery land and hunter's need that perspective like ticks up their shorts.
You mean that you can't be both... :bigsmyl: almost every target shooter I know in this country is first and foremost a hunter.. :goldtooth: [/b]
Well put. Those two worlds are far from mutually exclusive. [/b]
if you don't understand the difference, you don't understand competitive archery.
All of the state and sectional championship plaques on my wall talked it over with the dead animals in my freezer. They think I understand it just fine.
;)
i guess this won't end with you 'til i say "yer right"?
ok, jason, yer right. ;)
While in college I was shooting a Howatt Catalina target recurve with a single pin and a Bear Kodiak (sightless) at home. Two totally different styles. I do have a more upright stance than most, but not all, instinctive shooters. But I can and do vary my stance and bow cant to the situations.
The guys who have a totally closed stance, use a lifted bow arm "target address" and come down on an anchor may have trouble in a tree or under branches . . . or within sight of a deer. I always considered the folks who point the arrow at a target/game before drawing to be using a target technique - but I see a lot of trad bowhunters doing that.
And if you have to run out and put an orange dot on a target before coming back to shoot . . . that's latent targetism. ;)
Holy cow! I sign on and I've got 3 pages of responses. Thanks everyone for your feedback on this.
I had already decided this fellow was a little out there but I've been wrong before so I wanted to see what folks here had to say.
I used to use one jig for a set of arrows but another archer I know who is a great shot told me I was wasting my time and only a really extraordinary archer would be able to tell the difference. I made the mistake of saying that to the fellow in question and he looked at me and kind of buffed his fingernails on his shirt and said, "so, what's your point, I am good." Yeah, there's some ego involved here :knothead:
Thanks, folks. I really apprecite your thoughts on this.
Guy
Here's a scenario. Two hunters: Bob and Bill.
Bob is a target shooter and he sets up his ground blind 8 months ahead of the season in a spot he scouted the fall prior where two well-worn deer trails intersect. And he won't be back in the woods until season opens because he spends his weekends at target shoots. He clears a few lanes and makes a comfy little seat out of a log. Come opening day he is on his log at first light and at 9:30 AM sees a deer at 35 yards and puts an arrow through both lungs.
Bill is a bowhunter and gets up opening day and camos up, dabbing some facepaint on and laces up his stalking boots. He heads out before first light and spends a half hour quietly moving in to a good area where he saw some pre-rut scraping and rubs while out stump shooting earlier that month. At first light, after letting the woods "rest" a while, he begins moving slowly and, after 30 minutes, he spots a glimpse of antler moving beyond a hemlock. He side-steps to a tall opening and, when the buck takes two more steps, puts an arrow through both lungs at 9 yards.
Who is the better hunter? Answer: neither. They just have different styles. Though I would tend to consider Bill a true hunter and not just a bushwacker. ;) But in nature both jaguars (ambushers) and cheetahs (chasers) get to eat.