Was just curious how many TradGangers are backpackin goin in deep type of elk hunters.
Would like to kick around gear ideas, etc. PLanning a full season hunt this year, and always lookin to pick a few ideas from others.
I would be interested in the same input as two buddies and I may be doing a pack in hunt for elk this year.
Backcountry Bowhunting by Cameron Hanes covers a lot of ground in this area. Any specific questions you have??
Whew. Big topic.
Everything from gear,meals, and conditioning to the mental aspect of a hard hunt like that could be covered. Like Canyon says: What specifics are you looking for?
Remember ounces add up to pounds for starters. Have a packer lined up if you can. Hanes's book is good.
Start working out now the first few days are always easy its the last few day and packen out the meat that get ya. Great way to hunt I would not do it any other way. Good luck
OK, how about this specific question--small back packer tent or Hennessy Hammock? Why your choice?
Small tents are better in my opinion. You have a hard time getting your gear into a Hennessey Hammock. Getting dressed in the morning if it is cold is nicer in a tent too. If you are going with two people then a small sleeping tent and a lightweight tarp to cook and prepare for the day under is a good combo. It is easier to go lighter with two people than just one. Only need one stove and such. Hope this helps.
Not a Hennessy fan but have used a Clark NA for years.
It depends on temps and your hammock camping gear and experience. Pound for pound my hammock rig comes in within a few ounces of my three season two man tent when i add in my insulated pad and the groundsheet with the tent. Having said that, there are times when a tent is the way to go.I also use a tarp/bivy combo.
If you don't have an under-quilt and better than factory supplied tarp, forget it. It is a recipe for cold nights.
If you are doing a bivy (coyote) style hunt where light and fast with multiple camps in multiple areas over days, a hammock is great, because all you need is a couple of trees. Flat ground isn't a concern. Set up/teardown is less than two minutes.
Hunting out of a fixed camp, more inclement weather, etc. a tent may be nicer for some. Some people just sleep better on the ground. Proper tool, proper job.
Play with a hammock in different temps and settings. Dry runs with ALL OF YOUR GEAR is critical before any backpacking hunt.Boots, sleeping gear, cooking gear etc. should all be known and trusted quantities before heading out.
IMO, your first consideration and the most important is having quality, perfect fitting footwear. Your boots will be on your feet pretty much every minute you're not in your sleeping bag and poor fitting footwear ruins a great hunt faster than anything. Lots of choices out there, get looking now and make sure they're the ones, then get them broken in.
Also, I very much second Daz' advice about getting your gear together and doing some dry runs well before going on your hunt. Better to find out something doesn't work like you hoped sooner rather than later.
Lastly, plan on getting to your hunting area 2 or 3 (4 is better) days before the season opens to acclimate to the altitude. You will suck wind the first few days no matter how good of shape you're in and it's better to do it hiking in and scouting than while trying to hunt.
Keep asking questions, lots of good advice amongst the 'Gangers!
First timer to hunt Colorado here and I am SOOOOOO glad someone posted this. Thinking of going in with 2 two man tents instead of a large one. Our party of 4 will be hunting in groups of two and it frees up the party to move as they want. One question, I was under the impression that I should purchase a 4 season tent (we will be going in mid-September. Is this correct or will a 3 season (lighter) work?
I think its worth getting a shelter that you can use with a small woodstove.You can offset the little extra weight of the stove
-you can dry your gear (clothes)so you can pack less in
-you can cook on it with an unlimited fuel supply
Look at Kifaru,T I Goat,SeekOutside ,etc
A good 3-season tent will work. Two guys in a two man tent is awful cozy. You need something that can stand up to a foot or more of snow, which is not uncommon. I've gone whole seasons with no or little snow but have also had 12-20" of snow overnight on multiple occasions.
Think I will go with a 4 season if I can expect 1' of snow. I agree with the 2-man tent size. The tent would have to have a fairly large vestibule (maybe 2) for packs etc. I was planning on packing a small Mr. Buddy heater in for heat and drying clothes.
The other option we are looking at is to get a canvas wall tent and a wood stove and set up at a lower elevation and walk up every day. But I would rather wake up nearer to where we are hunting.
Gear list
Mystery Ranch Crew Cab backpack
Hilleberg Atko tent
Western Moutaineering +15F sleeping bag
Western Mountaineering down pillow
Exped Sleeping Pad
Soto Stove, titanium cook pot, jet boil fuel
1 set sitka rain gear
1 down jacket
1 set extra wool socks
100' parachord
game bags, I use deer size bags for elk, these help save weight
surgical glue
vaseline packed cotton balls for fire starters
weather proof matches
iodine tablets
2 extra water bladders to keep full at camp if hunting from a base camp
hunting knife
small bone saw
compass
maps
marking tape
small first aid kit
Headlamp, light weight, not as bright
Surefire flashlight for blood trailing
moleskin for blisters, and aspirin
Tea and single coffee bags
Extra bow string, stringer, etc...
The above items are my main pack items for a September elk hunt in Colorado. Other variables that I rely on are my food options, I usually rely on freeze dried goods, but they can add weight quick if going for more than five days. I carry protein powders, creatine and energy gels for quick snacks, nutrition, and muscle recovery. MRE's are OK but weigh more than freezed dried.
Bivy sacks can help cut down on weight, but are not for everyone, it's nice to have the room of a tent IMHO, even if it's a small one. I also ditch my sleeping pad when using a bivy. An inflatable sleeping pad is nice but takes time to set up and break down. If I am moving camp each morning I will pack the bivy sack and sleeping bag together in a dry sack.
My typical pack weight is around thirty pounds to thirty five pounds, not counting water. Water can be a pain, especially if you are hunting a new area and do not know where water is. Water adds alot of weight to a pack quick.
Walking sticks can also be a nice addition, if you are not used to hiking alot.
I suspect the Mr. Buddy heater will put more moisture in the air as propane creates moisture when it burns. I have a friend who tried using a propane heater in his wall tent two years ago in a late, read wet, Oregon Blacktail hunt. Couldn't get anything dry and near froze to death.
Nothing like a wall tent and wood stove. You could use it as a base and bivy a couple nights with the lighter gear if you got into critters.
A lot of the lighter tents are using a lot of mesh in the tent body with a fly. This doesn't work if you encounter cold/windy conditions as the wind will come under the fly and into the tent. Doesn't work well if you have a lot of dust as it will coat every thing in the tent. I'll take a 4 seasons tent better thermal cover and I can keep things clean. Everythings a compromise.
Sounds like great advice 58winters. Never thought of any humidity issues. Thanks
BTW, I am not trying to hyjack this thread. Sorry, but I just had a few questions. Thanks
BTW, I am not trying to hyjack this thread. Sorry, but I just had a few questions. Thanks
Here's the tent I used for my first 4 trips. REI Sololite. It's 5 pounds and held up well but I wanted something lighter.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2006-Elk-Hunt/06elkhunt07.jpg)
Now I use a tarp. The whole setup is 18 oz.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/Elk-Hunt-2008/tarp4.jpg)
There was a good thread on clothes not long ago.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=101606#000000
The first thing is to access your physical condition. I dont know how you train or what fitness program you use, but, find a good backpack and start rucking with 20 to 40 pounds of flour, work up to 5 miles without stopping, by the time you leave for your hunt..
Good thread. I'm trying to put something together like this for next year.
Been doing a lot of research on gear. Picked up a Kelty Cach Hauler for training mostly but I think it'll work for short trips. I agonized on footwear as I wanted to get that now for good break-in this fall. Endless.com has a good return policy. I ordered 4 pairs of different boots at one time to try out (wife nearly flipped). I went with Kenetrek Hardscrabbles.
I plan to do some overnighters this summer to work out the kinks in gear and work on land nav. I also picked up Hane's book. Just started reading it but looks like it has lots of good info.
I am going out again this year and I will be changing most of my gear to get lighter stuff. I will be using
Kifaru Ku 3700 badkpack 2-lbs 9oz
Big Agnes Fly Creek 2 tent 2-lbs 10oz
Montbell UL Super Spiral Hugger down 15deg sleeping bag 2-lb 1oz
Big Agnes insulated air core mattres wide 2-lbs 4oz
Thermorest pillow med 9oz
Soto microregulator stove 3oz love this stove
Salomon wing sky GTX boots 2-lbs
Russell Outdoor APX-2 Gale 4 jacket and zeffer pants
Marmot Zues light weight 800 down jacket 15oz
Try to get the lightest gear you can afford it will make a big differance last year my pack weight was 55lbs and I had to make a midhunt trip back to truck to get food I did not want to carry in. This year my pack will be 40lbs Max for a 10 day hunt. Widow ps pm me if you have any questions,
Darren, I see you got a montbell for this year. I carried in 62lbs last year. Do not want to do that again. I wish I could get by with 40lbs so I am still working on a new gear list.
Widow, what do you think of the KU 3700? It looks sweet but that is out of my price range...I will agree with everyone else and say to start training now. My dad got altitude sickness a couple years ago and that was seriously scary. Take your time getting up to hunting elevation
Awesome- exactly what I was looking to start with this post. Open discussion and ideas. AS for the Hennessy Hammock, I tried that once- never again. They are a pain to get into a sleeping bag in, and I dont sleep well in them. Cold air circulates under you, so they sleep cold.
Right now my pack weight with water minus food is just under 50#. Thats with a few extras that might not make each trip out from base camp- depends of weather etc.
My pack itself is a little heavier, butwell, thats what I have. Its a Kifaru AG2, with the loadhauler frame. I love it, its comfy and everything fits insside out of the elements.
Our plan is hunt 2-4 day bivy trips out from our base camp. Shelter will be a 12x12 pyramid tent for base camp, a kifaru paratipi for bivy's. We have the stove for the paratipi if needed as the weather gets cold. Some gear will be divided between us to lighten it up.
My biggest challenge right now is food. I very particular about what I fuel my body with, finding lightweight HEALTHY food is tough. Most options are packed with chemicals and stuf I prefer not to eat. I do not typically eat any processed foods, and my concern is if I start eating a lot of them my digestive system may revlt on me,not good in the backcountry. So Im researching food ideas, experimenting in the kitchen to make sure it meets weigh to calories requirements, ease of preparation etc.
I may have to compromise somewhat, but the less junk the better.
Great thread. Definitly get a copy of Cameron Hanes book. It has a lot of great info. I think it is out of print. I have seen it on ****, but for ridiculous prices. Maybe you can borrow a copy?
John, for food prep try this site: http://www.trailcooking.com/
Gives lots of information on DIY healthy and ultralight meal prep and planning. From both a cost/meal and knowing what you are eating, dehydrating and prepping at home can't be beat.
Sounds like you're well on your way planning wise. Since your concern at the moment is food, at least it's easy figure out at home. It's a genuine concern, I learned the hard way. The Mountain House meals have been pretty good for me, though expensive. What's your plan for water?
Not deep as some would call it, but I have been 3 times and usually pack in 2.5-3 miles by GPS, and have usually been in the elk. I have gotten close several times, but haven't brought any meat home yet. That is when the work really starts and hopefully I'll get to experience that pain this year!
Definately get into the best shape you can, as that will determine how long and hard you can hunt.
As others have said, weight adds up very quickly. I always seem to pack too much clothes and food because I think I'll need it, then usually don't.
I have a bivy tent that only weighs 2.5 lbs, but it is very small. I actually prefer carry the extra weight of a 3 man tent, because of the ability to sit up inside, dress inside, store everything inside, etc.
You can get good equipment for reasonable prices, but there is a compromise between cost and weight. Most of my equipment is good quality, but there are a lot of products out there that are considerably lighter. Now that I know I will be going back regurlarly, I plan to upgrade my gear to the lighter weight stuff over the next couple of years, but it will be costly.
Good luck, but be warned, it is addicting!
I second Tim in WA. A tent with a small wood burning stove is the way to go. Being able to dry out and warm up out of the elements is key.
Especially when you have less than ideal conditions.
Quality boots and physical condition are definitely the most important imo.
Climb some hills with the boots you're planning on using with your backpack on. Gradually add weight to the pack until you have the weight you'll be packing. Don't want to "throw a shoe" on the first day of hunting! Get in hunting shape or you won't enjoy the hunt and all the other preparation will be wasted.
if you guys are like me from flat land just remember to hunt high and sleep low even a 100 ft drop in el. will let you breath easier, el effects everyone differently, start off low the first couple of days.
You'll get all kinds of advice about equipment so I won't go there. But, start now and get in the best possible physical condition that you can especially cardio. If you don't it will ruin your hunt. The best you can be at Michigan altitude compared to 6-10 thousand feet are a whole lot different.
For water I am using the katadyne hicker pro with tablets or drops as backup
Food I want to keep my food weight to 1 lb plus a few OZ per Day and last year I carried pouch tuna and klif bars and MH for supper and it was alot of weight for the amount of food about 2 lbs per day. I think the mountian house will be alot more food for alot less weight and I like it.
oatmeal for breakfast if I feel like it
Mountian House 2 ser size for lunch
Mountian House 2 ser size for supper
beef jerky for snacks
Snickers for treat
powder drink mix for taste and caffene
ALTITUDE ADJUSTMENT I would not leave home without it this stuff WORKS. Widow
What type of terrain am I looking for a Colorado mid-September trip. Looking at the Grand Mesa National Forest right now. STEEP areas or more gradual stuff like plateaus. Do I get high and glass with the wind currents rising and go after them after they reach timber?
Currently looking at 10,000+ elevations. I know a lot depends on if there is snow yet, but is that a good place to start?
BTW, if any of ya'll want to point me in a general direction, it would be appreciated. PM me your telephone number if we can talk.
Thanks
If you have never been at elevation, I'd think lower than 8000 for at least the first couple days. Trust me on this one.
My food is 1.5# to 1.75# per day. That's a Lipton rice or pasta meal, 8 oz tuna in oil, .5 cups of trail mix made with pistachios and Craisens with some M&Ms, 2 oatmeal pouches, 2 granola bars, plus 2 coffee bags. I burn the remains and then clean up the pit to recover chunks of plastic and foil that don't burn. I just cook in the bags and carry only a metal cup to boil water.
Dry your wet wipes and then rehydrate them during the trip.
I don't carry a filter anymore and rely on tabs with neutralizer. You don't have to treat water you boil for your food.
The White River National Forest Unit 25 is OTC still I believe.
awbowman, coming from low altitude, if you can, spend a night in denver, or somewhere in the 5-6,000 ft elevation range before you go up to 10,000. It will help you acclimate. a couple nights would be awesome, but all know how time constraints are. At 10,000, take it real easy the first couple days, and drink a ton of water.
Wilderness Athlete makes a supplement for helping adjust to the altitude to combat altitude sickness. Ive used it and it definietely helps.
If you go straight to 10k and start hitting it hard, you'll be puking and laid up in your tent.
For me, food is a huge deal. It has to have 100 calories per ounce minimum, or it doesnt go in my pack. Now I eat a very clean normal diet, almost Paleo, I dont eat anything with white flour, processed sugar,almost no bread, no dairy. I basically eat meats,fruits, veggies and nuts. I steer clear of anything that is highly processed. All of the commerically available freeze dried stuff has tons of chemicals and soy in it. Soy is poison. I will not eat anything with soy in it. Now, that said,I know for an extended trip where every ounce counts, I'll likely have to compromise on some stuff.
Im currently experimenting with homemade protein/energy bars, pemmican, and such. Breakfasts are easy- homemade granola,powdered milk(or dry) and s scoop of raisins and a scoop of protein powder. Lunch- larabars, pemmican, homemade bars, jerky, nuts or dried fruit.
Dinners will probably be where I compromise with MH meals, or backpacker pantry. Still working on some alternatives for some meals. I dont want to spend a lot of time (fuel) cooking after a long day hunting. The longer stuff has to cook, the more fuel we have to carry. Im open to ideas on dinners.
Heres my gear list. Theres a lot there, but not all of it will be in my pack all the time. Some will be split up between the 2 of us. But its pretty close. Some of the extra clothes will stay at base camp.
There are a few items I'll add that arent on there, and a few that will probaly come off. Or go in my sons pack LOL
Elk Hunt Gear List
Kifaru AG2 backpack with Cargo Chair*
Kifaru Paratipi with Small Stove
Air Core Insulated inflatable Sleeping Pad
Marmot Pinnacle sleeping bag
Bivy cover for bag
Sil-tarp
Tyvek ground cloth
Thunderstick MOAB takedown longbow*
GFA quiver with 7 arrows ( 5 BH 2 Judo )*
ParaOrdinance Tac-S .45 ACP with spare mag.*
Kahles 10x42 Binoculars*
KAtadyn Hiker Pro H2O filter(with spare cartridge)
Delorme PN60 GPS with SPOT*
Snow Peak Giga stove with fuel cannister
Snow Peak Titanium cookset
Sawvivor Lt. Wgt. Folding saw
Compass/Maps
Platypus 100oz H2O bladder
2 headlamps
1 small LED flashlite
Clothes
Sitka Jacket
Sitka Vest*
Sitka Mtn Pants * 1pr
Sitka Ascent pants 1pr
Sitka Core Zip LS Tshirt 2
Sitka beanie*
Sitka ballcap*
Sitka gloves 1 pr
First Lite Merino Wool Briefs* 1pr
First Lite Wool LS top base later* 1
First Lite Long johns base layer 1pr
UA Briefs 1 pr.
First Lite Wool LS top* 1
Cabelas Fleece Hoodie with WS 1
Cabelas packable rain gear
Cabelas wool socks * 3 pr
Asolo boots*
*denotes items worn. 1 extra set of Base layers and pants carried in backpack. Total of 2 sets of clothes on bivy trips.
Hunt Gear
Topo Maps
Sm notepad/pencil
Compass
Camera
Sheath knife
Elk Bugle w spare reeds
Cow calls
Elknuts playbook
Windicator powder bottle
Spare bowstring w/ nock and silencers attached
First Aid Kit
1 small roll Coban gauze
Bandaids
Steri-strips
Skin glue
Betadine wipes
Neosporin
Duct tape
Personal Hygiene Kit
Soap
Sm towel
TP
Toothbrush/paste
Prescription meds
Nail clippers
Anti-chafe stick
floss
Survival Kit
Fire starter- cotton balls, char cloth, pine pitch, lighter, matches, flint striker
Space blanket
Wire saw
Braided fishing line
Emergency poncho(plastic)
whistle
Kill Kit
Game bags
550 cord
Knife sharpener
Havalon knife/spare blades
Orange tracking tape
2 lg zip lock baggies
Thanks for the advice guys. I've been that high and understand altitude sickness. We are planning on two days in the mid-8000 to acclimate us to the altitude. I will take it easy believe me. I'm one of those people who enjoy myself or I go home.
Keep it coming with the lists. I have gotten a lot of "man I never thought of that" ideas so far.
One thingI am in need of is a GOOD bright headlamp. The other item i still need to get is a set of trekking poles. Other than that, I think Im set. Unless of course someone comes up wth something Im missing. Still waiting for my new MOAB takedown.( providing my elbow problems clear up)
Most elk country in CO is going to be steep. You mentioned the Grand Mesa. It is billed as the World's largest flat top mountain. Here is a photo of the NW corner of the Grand Mesa taken from my deck. Sorry for the picture quality, but it was getting dark when I took it. Most people who hunt the Mesa do not hunt up on top. Rather they hunt the many canyons coming off of the Mesa or the country under the rim. Wherever you go, you will need to be in shape.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd313/jimscol/grandmesa.jpg)
I spent a couple days in Grand Junction after my last hunt, what a nice area. I drove through the Colorado National Monument area, as well as up around the grand Mesa looks like some good elk country. I'd love to hunt that area, but not a clue where to start.
Autumnarcher, if you want a light, pick one of these:
http://www.fenixgear.com/flashlight/Fenix_PD_Series.html
He is my list,each time I make improvements. I will carry the extra weight for the comfort that my Kifaru tipi has, especially if you get wet.
Kifaru pack/ longhunter guide
alps foam pad under thermarest to protect
thermarest
kifaru 4man tipi
Kifaru small stove
helle knife
ACS CX
jet boil stove
fly rod, flys, etc./tenkara or collapsible spinning
2 lighters/fire starter wet match /
flashlight/fenix pd30/extra batteries
head lamb/petzl/ extra 3 AAA batteries
batteries/ 6 extra lithium
GPS
map cut map down
kaitadyn water system
gatorade powder for water/ hot chocolate
camera
extra string/ shelf material/ kept at truck
spectra rope and bear/bag for food
game bags/ alaskan bags
plastic bags
water bag 4liter
tyvek sheet
portable water bottle with filter
Mountain house foods
Day 1 with power bars
day 2 " " "
day 3
day 4
day 5
day 6
day 7
day 8
day 9
rain gear/ small pack
extra socks/ theos
ascent sitka pants x2
sitka transverse shirt x2
sitka 90% jacket
sitka kelvin jacket
sitka core bottoms
sitka beanie
face mask cold gear
sitka gloves
Crocs for camp
small detergent
calls
fuel X2 cannister
western mountaineering badger down bag
throat lozengers
diamox
chapstick
hunter wipes 5x8 and large 10x15
toiletries
tooth brush& paste
decoy/ heads up decoy
Thanks Jimscol. The question I have, do I stand a better chance at success to climb/camp high and glass downward and approach the elk from above. I have read of the currents pushing scent up during the day. It would seem to me to start from the top?????
Start low in the AM working uphill, the air is cool and dense, therefore flowing downhill. Then hunt back downhill later in day as the air warms and starts to rise. Of course once the sun sets and it cools off, the air will start to sink again, but it's usually dark by the time this happens. Keep in this is just a general rule and weather may change the wind patterns.
Wow, you guys are taking a lot of clothes back in. I just take one part pants and the same for the tops and under layers.
I would consider a drop camp with an outfitter. I know the the satisfaction of a dyi hunt, but your first post said deep hunt for elk. A de-boned bull elk weights about 400lbs. The lightest I can pack for a week hunt in my backpack is about 70lbs. Five miles in(not deep), thats 5 trips and 25 miles with 100lbs on my back and you have to get it out before it spoils. I say let the horse's do the work. Good luck on your hunt!
I think that the secret to hunting an over-the-counter unit in Colorado is to try to find the out of the way spots that are difficult to access. Any area where you can drive a 4-wheeler or is a short walk from a 4-wheeler is going to have other hunters. You do not have to go that deep to find these places. I have hunted areas from 1-3 miles in and have had it to myself. CheyenneFoote is right about the effort to get an elk out. 3 miles is about my personal limit (with help from my hunting partner).
Backpack hunting can be one of the best and certainly most rewarding way to chase elk. You are getting a lot of good info regarding gear, food, etc. One of the most important and most overlooked facets of any backcountry elk hunting is taking care of meat and packing it back to the vehicle. Always carry game bags with you and when you get an animal down make sure that you skin and quarter to get the body heat out and prevent spoilage. If at all possible, line up a packer with horses or mules to get the game out in a timely basis. If you do not have pack animals make certain you know how to de-bone an elk to reduce weight. Never have a "I will worry about it when it happens" attitude as it can be the most physically exhausting task of your life. Last year 2 of us literally spent a day and a half packing a bull up and over a mountain to the trailhead. The excitement of a bull on the ground can wear off pretty quickly with an elk quarter strapped to your back and miles separating you from the trailhead.
ShadeMt, good points for sure. Packing out an elk is grueling work. Preventing spoilage is something you have to have a plan for as well.
Another option for cooling meat is to carry a coupl econtractor sized garbage bags in your pack. Load your first load of meat into your pack, and before heading for the truck, stick the remaining meat in the bags, and place is a cool creek in the shade if possible to cool the meat. If you have a creek nearby the truck, do the same withthe meat you haul down. you not only have to keep the meat at the kill site fresh until you return for it, but the load remaining at the truck needs to keep cool too.
Dark timber is a good place to hang it in the shade, in game bags. The faster you can get it cooled down the better. In warm weather, hind quarters can spoil overnight if a bull is shot in the evening and not recovered until the next day. Elk hide is some darn good insulation, and soon as that critter gets dead, that hide starts workin against you.
One thing you folks should take a look at is the Kelly Kettle. It burns grass,twigs,pine needles,ect. The only time I don't use it is when I'm above timberline. My daughter filled it with dry pine needles and boiled water in a minute. The one I use holds a liter and a half. Its enough for two people.
MAP
Mr. Pfannder - Thanks for the heads up on the Kelly Kettle. That is very interesting, as long as I have been around this stuff I had never seen one of those. Got me rethinking!
Hey guys, what size backpack should I be looking at for a seven day wilderness hunt?
A group if six are coming, so we can minimize by not duplicating some stuff.
Please PM me, so I will not miss the suggestions.
Thanks,
PS I am thinking something in the 4500 to 5000 cu. in. range right now
I'm doing it but my mules going to be carrying the pack ! :biglaugh: