help me understand why it is advised to shoot a heavy 600+ grain total arrow out of my 53# longbow the compound shooter in me says speed kills and velocity is the begining of kenetic energy so will it hurt my bow to shoot a 450 grain arrow including 125 grain broadhead and get flatter tradjectory as long as it is shooting straight and tuning right? new at this trad stuff but love shooting it is the most addictive thing i have done dont recall wanting to shoot my top of the food chain bow this much.
Dood, 8 to 10 grains per pound of draw weight is the accepted number, so at 10 you are sitting at a 530 grain arrow.
That and weight in an arrow causes very much energy, too----a sports car going 100 will screw up a wall pretty bad, but, a Mack truck going 60 will obliterate it.
In general a good rule of thumb for hunting is to shoot 10 grains per pound of draw weight.. so at 53 lbs you would shoot a 530 grain arrow... That isn't to say thay you can't shoot less, but you'll find that the heavier arrow is quieter and more forgiving than a lighter arrow.. Weight and FOC equal penatration, speed is secondary..
As for comparing the traditional bow to a compound, forget all you think you know and listen to the old timers.. they know things... :D
I think a 450 would be fine on whitetails but upping to 475 if you wanna stay light would be better. You could use a 150 grain head.
I like 10 grains per pound of draw weight and a little more for thick animals like hogs.
A heavier arrow will make your bow way more quiet and tends to be easier on the limbs.
We traditional people don't have the speed factor so we make up for it with kinetic energy. A 375 grain arrow from a compound may have adequate penetration while the same arrow from a traditional bow would more than likely get marginal penetration compared to the wheels.
In most cases with a great performing trad bow your looking at under 200fps(more in the neighborhood of 180 fps). A little more than half of what todays wheelies shoot.
Been at it a while. May ruffle some feathers, but I kill a bunch of deer with 450gr arras out of a 53lb bow.
You're at 8.5gr per pound you're fine.
As long as you are tuned and arras flying like lasers. Go hunt.
Dumptruck & volkswagon are both going 30mph. Which stops faster? Why? The heavier dumptruck is harder to slow down because of the extra mass in motion. Arrows are the same. There is a point of diminishing returns however. Generally, 10gpp is sufficient to eliminate that concern however. Medieval crossbows were deadly shooting iron bolts which could pierce body armor. Wood not so much.
This is what a 430gr arra will do out of a 54lb bow, with a three blade BH.
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/emtp505/DSC00115.jpg)
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/emtp505/DSC00103.jpg)
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/emtp505/DSC00105.jpg)
ke really doesnt mean much in archery, firearms yes. you want momentum. heavier arrows will get higher momentum and momentum is what causes the arrow to push through. take a light fast arrow and shoot a slower heavier arrow next to it. the heavier one will penetrate more.
i have a short dl and shooting a bow thats about 43# at my dl and even with my 560 gr arrows its pretty flat and it isnt horrible with my 600+ gr arrows ethier at 25yds. but the penetration is better and thats waht i want. light weight+ slower speed= high risk of problem IMO
that being said 450 gr out of your bow should work for white tails at normal hunting distance
470GR OUT OF A 56LB BOW.
Exit..only feathers left in it. Entered behind right shoulder, angled and came out here. Walking 21yd shot.
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/emtp505/2010bucks024.jpg)
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/emtp505/2010bucks031.jpg)
Bleeding is what kills in archery. Not fast arrows, not heavy arrows. Sharp as heck broad heads and well placed shots.
Jerry Jeffer...absolutely perfectly said.
Where you at in TN country roads?
What Javi said.
Look up and read some of Dr. Ashby's reports on arrow penetration. As far as penetrating power goes; 600+ grains and heavy to extreme F.O.C. work magic. That 10 grains per pound is a golden rule of thumb, and 11 to 12 are better. The bow benefits from the absorbed energy. The hunter benefits from a quiet release. The arrow benefits from greater forgiveness.
The heavier arrow will have more penetration. but no need for overkill.
You don't need a heavy arrow when you shoot well, but they are a big benefit on marginal hits. You will get a lot of different answers & I won't say any are wrong. I shoot 51lbs & 580 grain arrow with 325 up front. I only know that this setup shoots great for me. Passthrough on my black bear. Good luck.
Alot of 125 grain broadheads are a good bit more fragile than the heavier ones. When everything is perfect, you don't need the extra horsepower that heavy arrows, and lots of FOC provide. I Prefer the heavier ones myself (12-13 gpp).
Do a search for the Ashby reports. It's kinda of tough to follow with all the physics terms, but you'll get the idea.
I just switched from easton axis 500's with a 100 grain broadhead (400 gpi) to beeman mfx 400's with a 200 grain broadhead (600 gpi) and really noticed the speed loss. With that said, my bow shoots quiter, has virtually no hand shock and the arrow seems easier to shoot accurate. At first the speed loss was eating at me, but I'm taking all the advice on the forum and gonna try it out this fall. Weight equalls penetration I'm told! Can,t wait to loose some of em'! :archer2:
Power is useless without control,and a razor sharp broadhead.
Animals are not dispatched by speed or kinetic energy no matter what commercial archery manufacturers claim. If their claims were true they would be ashamed for marketing and selling such woefully slow and inadequate compounds bows starting with last years "must have" at the time models and getting worse and worse as you check back just a few short years. For that matter based on speed, their new crossbows have enough to make compounds and trad bows alike obsolete and that should be obvious by noticing how many states have replaced their archery seasons with crossbow seasons. Thankfully, so far they still allow us to shoot archery equipment if we choose to be technology challenged. Is'nt it great that Archery manufacturers working alongside the N.R.A. are working so hard to involve more sportsmen in hunting?
Shoot 45# to 57# pound long bows with 600 gr too 800 gr arrows MFX 500s with 200 gr too 300 gr very sharp Tuskers or Grizzlies up front. Full penetration and very dead, bows shoot very quiet and smooth. Some of my bows will be noisier and rattle with lighter arrows, good strings like SBDs help on quieting them. Good Luck
They all "work" if flying well and not hurting your bow.
The "faster flatter" craze is a product of compound bows, and sights!!! and their shooters coming to trad archery and , no offense, is a "method" some seek to find an easier path to better shooting over just practicing and also a product of LONG range 3D type practicing.
KE is a TOTAL energy........NOT energy of forward motion....that would be Momentum.
KE is a tool of mfg companies that CAN build a bow to throw a few fps faster with light arrows and say "LOOK ......MORE KE" simply because it squares the velocity. Measure momentum of fast and light versus slower and heavier.........not a lot of difference, both are adequate for deer, an with actual measured (if you must) speeds the heavier arrows WILL wow you.
If you need to ask yourself (I dont) which will be the best penetrator.....ask yourself one question.
While for whitetail, the question is moot (IMHO) if you were to leave tomorrow to trad hunt for rhino.........how much would your arrows of choice weigh?......and how come? :D
Inside, everyone knows which will be the weight picked if really NEEDING the extra penetration. The personal choice for whitetail can be altered a bit.......but the same rules apply.
Kinda a no brainer but again, for whitetail......shoot what you like but like the above posts state. Out of SLOWER bows by and large, decades ago 10 grains per lb of bow weight was considered ideal......and they HAD light arrows then too. Papa Bear wasn't a dummy and hunted more than most of us ever will.
Personally, every time I feel the "inspiration" to pick up a calculator for something trad....I resist.
For me, that isn't what it's all about.
2 cents.
God Bless
Many spend w/o a thought to get this speed that speed and this kinetic energy and that kinetic energy. Then try to get by with the lightest possible wt of an arrow. Some choose their hunting set-up based on 3D instead of the number one priority outcome use.
See 2010 Poll results after 526 Trad Ganger votes
Choose 1 less then 8 ggp 1% (6)
8 - 9 ggp 9% (48)
9 - 10 ggp 29% (150)
10 - 11 ggp 35% (182)
11 - 12 ggp 16% (86)
12 - 13 ggp 7% (36)
more then 13 ggp 3% (18)
The complete arrow design is the significant factor when it comes to lethality. Moderate draw wt increases gains pale in comparison to an enhanced arrow design. Why squander the opportunity? Sure light arrows and great shots can work but why decrease you chances and increase the chances for an unrecovered animal. Plan and count on the unexpected. Animals move and our aim is not always true. Our quarry deserves better.
That's just a part.http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/
Penetration is the key to a killing shot, and momentum is more important than KE. Mass weight has a much larger part in the momentum formula than it does in the KE formula. The old illustration is to throw a ping pong ball and a golf ball into a snow bank and see which goes in further even if the golf ball is slower.
Why heavy arrows... here is a practical demonstration for you...
Use the arrow you now shoot... that 430 grain jobber..
Now get your hands on a 600 or so grain arrow with something over say.. 18% FOC....
Go out in your yard... now throw your arrow as hard as you can just like a spear..... trying to get as much distance as you can...
Repeat with 600 grain arrow....
That's why..... :D
QuoteDumptruck & Volkswagen . . .
Both leave a dead and flattened deer in the road.
If I were hunting moose or larger I would start practicing with a "heavy" arrow. Currently I'm at about 580 gr with cedars and 630 gr with Douglas fir, both sporting 125/130 gr heads & 30-1/2" BOP length, out of my bows in the 55 to 60# ranges. That's well and plenty for any shot on a whitetail and the trajectory is burned in my brain for shots out to 25 yards.
No idea or concern over the FOC, EFOC or any other FOCing table of numbers.
I use the old formula (like 20,000 years old) that a smaller head penetrates better. I like the Magnus II 125 gr, the Stos 130 gr and even the RibTek 125S. They're small and easy to sharpen. Rugged enough to practice on stumps. They fly well. They come out the other side even after meeting a rib on each side.
Just remember your average shot will be inside of 20yrds. Trajectory/speed not much of an issue at those distances. If majority of your hunting is out west then trajectory is a bigger issue.
Dangerous game is killed with heavier and slower bullets than most guns. Same theory works with arrows and trad bows.Just forget 90% of your compound theories and you'll do fine.
Just food for thought...
If you go too light with your arrows, you could do damage to your bow.
In general, You should be fine anywhere from 9 grains to 12 grains per inch.
Keep it fun, once it becomes too technical it defeats the purpose for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
QuoteDumptruck & Volkswagen . . .
Both leave a dead and flattened deer in the road.
[/b]
But the Dump Truck would still be on the road and the Volkswagen would be in the ditch with all four wheels in the air... :D
So the moral of the story is: sell your trad bow and buy a dump truck??? :cool:
Most of these reply are right on. As with any question there very rarely is on simple answer. One bleeding kills,but if you are hunting from an elevated position and you place a good shot but high with only an entry hole then the animal must fill up with blood before leaving a blood trail. Thus if you have more momentum and have the exit hole then you will have a great blood trail.
Secondly, what are you hunting, a deer or say a wild Boar. With the wild Boar you need more momentum than you do for a deer.
Lastly, when it comes to penetration what style of hunting blade are you using. I remember learning a valuable lessen several years back. I had for the most part only used two blades for hunting and they were the Bear and the Zwickey. Then came along the Snuffer and I thought what a bleeder this would make. On the first couple of deer that I shot you talk about a blood trail looked as thought the deer was dropping cups full of blood. Then came the draw back of large mult blades. I made a shot from a very elevated position and I hit high. The arrow lodged in the spine without breaking the spine or entering the spinal cord. That head style by its very nature needs very high momentum if hitting something with high resistance. The single blade offers less resistance as it is penetrating. Another example of the same thing, I can remember when the first expanding blades come out and the compound guys were using them with very light arrows, high speed but when they hit the got no penetration. Too much resistance for the momentum. I am not running down any style broad just trying to show that if you use a head that has high resistance you must have high momentum.
I don't think that difference in mass weight is going to change how lethal your arrows are on deer-sized game. Shoot a heavier arrow and see what you think. It is never a free lunch. Some are going to like the increased trajectory, others will prefer the softer, quieter shot.
Javi - I used the same demonstration last week however with a 608 gn 32.4% Ultra-EFOC arrow.
The look on their faces could be described as 'total bewilderment'.
IMHO, the number one reason for poor penatration is poor arrow/bow tuning. Think of it this way, if the arrow is flying true, at point of impact, it has all the weight of the arrow to drive the BH home. If the arrow is in parodox and/or wobbling, much of the transfered energy is wasted. Why is armor always angled? To deflect energy of a direct hit. Getting all the weight of a arrow directly behind a sharp BH is what it's all about. Tuning is paramount but often overlooked.
JL
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
Javi - I used the same demonstration last week however with a 608 gn 32.4% Ultra-EFOC arrow.
The look on their faces could be described as 'total bewilderment'.
Yep... their jaws really drop... :biglaugh:
I keep a couple of the high FOC arrows in my bin just for that reason...
JL,
That is a good point that the Ashby reports emphasize. I was surprised how much penetration could be lost due to a planing, wobbly or mispined arrow.
That is why I'm about to do the whole start from scratch bareshaft thing myself (I'm pretty new to this).
The Extreme FOC stuff in the Ashby reports was also very interesting. So I'll also be loading at least 200 grains up front on my new arras.
Don't know why (maybe I read it), but my weight metaphor is a same speed paperclip (opened) vs. a pencil.
The good news in all this is that everyone who takes the time to tune their bows and to get good arrow flight will become better shooters, which translates to cleaner kills! Deer aren't especially hard to kill, so weight isn't as important. But when you hunt hogs, or go after elk and larger game, then penetration is king.
When hunting hogs I have found that using an arrow at least 10 grains per pound and EFOC have shown much better penetration results. Out of my 55lb palmer recurve I am shooting 55/75 with brass inserts and 200gr phantoms and they have gone through most hogs I have shot. I shot a 230lb pound boar with an extemely thick shield and the arrow got stuck in the shield on the other side. Without the EFOC I don't think i would have gotten that boar.
Anybody done that hand-launch test with a 600 gr arrow using a 125 gr head (i.e. wood) vs. a 600 grain arrow using a 175 gr head (i.e. carbon fiber)?
And then repeat it holding only the nock when throwing it. :dunno:
My number one goal is perfect flight and some additional weight-10-12 gpp-gives you good penetration on tougher animals and a quiet bow. Shoot whatcha' want that gives you confidence and a dead animal; but tougher critters will respond better to a bit of extra weight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
Anybody done that hand-launch test with a 600 gr arrow using a 125 gr head (i.e. wood) vs. a 600 grain arrow using a 175 gr head (i.e. carbon fiber)?
And then repeat it holding only the nock when throwing it. :dunno:
To what end... testing the effect of FOC...
Holding by the nock and throwing... like an Atlatl or by whipping it...?
My bow I shoot if put into a kenetic energy equation put me around 37 ftp of energy. Not enough recomended kenetic energy as far as charts go for hunting big game. Thats with a 530 gr arrow around 175 fps out of a 62 pounds at my draw. The deer I shoot this year whirled on me,it had been shoot with #8 buckshoot in the rump a day or two before,making it jumpy and the shoot placement not ideal. The arrow intered almost strait on clipping through edge of the right shoulder blade then strait back and breaking the pelvis in two. This is with a big wide 3 blade head! So why did it work when the charts say it's not enough because of a sharp head,well tuned bow and enough mass to carry it through(hard to stop a train). Alot of people follow Dr.Asbey researh on arrow penetration and he puts 600 gr mark for breaking though bone. It's a good read in the archives section and it might help you understand why so many choose to follow his recomdations. I don't think 600 gr is absolutly needed for deer size game but one wrong hit may change one's opinion.
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
Anybody done that hand-launch test with a 600 gr arrow using a 125 gr head (i.e. wood) vs. a 600 grain arrow using a 175 gr head (i.e. carbon fiber)?
And then repeat it holding only the nock when throwing it. :dunno:
To what end... testing the effect of FOC... [/b]
Yep. Some claim the heavier head gives better flight. I'm wondering out of the gate if the heavier head doesn't set up a pendelum effect that extends the paradox further out than a light head - both of the same all-up arrow weight. Arrows are pushed from the nock end; not thrown from the center of gravity or balance point.
I'm just curious of EFOC vs. normal FOC.
Hey stumpkiller you shouldn't tell people the trick to an arrow throwing contest! I will not be able to win them all anymore.
and when shooting a heavier head.......spine of the arrow needs to be adjusted.
Paradox of both are the same.....or they wouldnt fly correctly out of the bow.
Stumpkiller... just think of a dart, how would it fly if the FOC wasn't there...
The weight forward pulls the arrow to the target which is why the high FOC will penetrate better and the arrow is more forgiving.. an arrow with little to no FOC will float... That's why when shooting Flight games we use arrows with negative FOC... not very accurate but they fly a long ways.. :D
QuoteOriginally posted by hunt it:
So the moral of the story is: sell your trad bow and buy a dump truck??? :cool:
As long as it's not a Volkswagen dump truck, or was once used to haul ping pong balls. Heck if I know for sure.
:dunno:
Any arrow with a metal point at one end and a plastic nock at the other has some FOC; fletching being the wild card. I taper the last 12" of my shafts and that no doubt adds more - but that's not why I do it.
Darts, you say. Horrible trajectory. They shoot on an 8 foot range. Look at the relative vane size of a dart. We'd have 10"L x 7"H fletch if we followed their lead. So, what's a dart: 6" long +/-? 8 ft vs. 6" is a ratio that would give us an arrow range of 37 ft (12 yards) with a 28" arrow. I've said that for years when guys tell me: "my arrows fly like darts". My response: "I'm sorry".
Slowboke - I think you nailed the relative weight shift answer - the spine would have to be correct for the shaft's reaction to head weight.
I'm not really as much of a crank as you likely read from my posts. I just like a sincere discussion. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
Any arrow with a metal point at one end and a plastic nock at the other has some FOC; fletching being the wild card. I taper the last 12" of my shafts and that no doubt adds more - but that's not why I do it.
Darts, you say. Horrible trajectory. They shoot on an 8 foot range. Look at the relative vane size of a dart. We'd have 10"L x 7"H fletch if we followed their lead. So, what's a dart: 6" long +/-? 8 ft vs. 6" is a ratio that would give us an arrow range of 37 ft (12 yards) with a 28" arrow. I've said that for years when guys tell me: "my arrows fly like darts". My response: "I'm sorry".
Slowboke - I think you nailed the relative weight shift answer - the spine would have to be correct for the shaft's reaction to head weight.
I'm not really as much of a crank as you likely read from my posts. I just like a sincere discussion. :thumbsup:
I see you never shot any Flight, it used to be more popular.. I haven't in years but when I did we built arrows with negative FOC and they had plastic nocks and steel points.. we simply weighted the rear of the shaft..
Darts fly well when thrown because of the weight forward design.. and yes because of the drag provided by the vanes.. but you don't really have to size comparison them to an arrow to understand the principal.. Weight forward is going to be more stable in non-powered flight; that principal has been know for centuries.. just look at spears.. an arrow and a dart is nothing more than a spear the dart and the spear propelled by human hand and the arrow by a string... The heavier the spear in relationship to diameter, the more weight forward the balance and the more drag on the rear (vanes or feathers); the more stable in flight it will be.. How far it will travel and the trajectory is determined by the amount of force with which it is launched, the drag, the weight in relationship to the launch force and the balance....
Your setup is more than adequate to kill a deer or anyhthing else. I would try a heavier arrow though justto see how much quieter it is going to make it. You may elect to move up in weight or not after that.
Yup, have to agree with Jeffry and Robert on this one. Unless you are hunting hogs or moose you can shoot 7-8gpp and do well on most any species here in NA. I shoot anywhere from 7.5 to 9 gpp. and do well. Shoot what flies best for you with a razor sharp head and do not worry what everyone else shoots. Shawn
Quote... Unless you are hunting hogs or moose you can shoot 7-8gpp and do well on most any species here in NA....[/QB]
Don't leave out the larger bull elk Shawn ;0)
They are as tough as any moose out there from my experience.
I think common sense tells us that there is a balance in all this info thrown around. But one can still choose to live at either end of the spectrum. Just be willing to accept the limitations or the quirks, of either extreme.
Joshua
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... Unless you are hunting hogs or moose you can shoot 7-8gpp and do well on most any species here in NA....[/QB]
and equally as well with heavier ones.
Never been one to attempt to use "the minimum". If I must ere I'll choose to ere on the side of "more than I need". Cheap insurance.
If not......Id be hunting with a 35lb bow......minimum allowed here.
"nevermind"
they all work. sorry to intrude.
No, never flight. Did shoot field out to 80 yards. Used the same arrow & point weight as for hunting as I consider all target practice to be hunting practice.
Lets look at throwing spears (as opposed to pikes & lances). The Roman Pilum had a long, narrow head and a heavy shaft. Weight is close to the hand when throwing. And no fletching for stabilization. As is the case of a javelin. A thrusting spear (like a boar spear) has the weight in the head and is not for throwing.
(https://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/images/products/1536.jpg)
The Norse also made a distinction in spears. The "flying head" was a small leaf blade on a hefty ash shaft.
From what I could find in a quick search the head weighed from 9 oz to one pound. An 84" x 1-1/4" dia ash pole weighs 3.6 pounds (58 oz). So relating that to an arrow analogy and using the heavier spear head: a 440 grain shaft would take a 121 grain head. Bingo. I use 125 or 130 grains on just that weight of wood shaft to end up with a 625 to 630 grain arrow.
PS - I agree with jhg and SlowBowke: they all work and sharp and accurate trumps all else.
Each of us has to be confident in OUR equipment or we might as well stay home. I am confident in mine and, as a traditionalist using what has been taught me, I ain't changing. ;-) I'm happy for you if you are confident in yours.
And the best news is that I find my broadheads for about $3 to $5 a piece.
QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
No, never flight. Did shoot field out to 80 yards. Used the same arrow & point weight as for hunting as I consider all target practice to be hunting practice.
Lets look at throwing spears (as opposed to pikes & lances). The Roman Pilum had a long, narrow head and a heavy shaft. Weight is close to the hand when throwing. And no fletching for stabilization. As is the case of a javelin. A thrusting spear (like a boar spear) has the weight in the head and is not for throwing.
(https://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/images/products/1536.jpg)
The Norse also made a distinction in spears. The "flying head" was a small leaf blade on a hefty ash shaft.
From what I could find in a quick search the head weighed from 9 oz to one pound. An 84" x 1-1/4" dia ash pole weighs 3.6 pounds (58 oz). So relating that to an arrow analogy and using the heavier spear head: a 440 grain shaft would take a 121 grain head. Bingo. I use 125 or 130 grains on just that weight of wood shaft to end up with a 625 to 630 grain arrow.
Started shooting Field in '59... still my favorite game.
Note to self: always tell Stumpkiller my arrows fly like laser beams. :cool: :archer2:
The difference is that with your compound you had energy to burn. Heck the last one I had delivered 86 # of KE. A real good longbow is in the 30-35 # of KE. So instead of ultra lite arrows going fast we go for heavier arrows going slower and maximizing penetration.
Mike
wingnut, what kinetic energy woould that compound have using the same heavy arrow that the longbow is using ?
ChuckC
The KE would have been about 3% more then the arrow we were using but the Momentum would have been .671 and shot through 2 elk.
Mike
would like to really think everyone for thier time i think i got it, i need to drive a dump truck to the woods unload my volkswagon drive it to my stand shoot a 4 pound arrow with a 1 pound head at a deer and if i hit it i use a dart to kill it with, and they said this trad stuff would be hard
Think about what is the most common grain weight trad head in the past 30+ years.125gr so add it to a wood shaft and sharpen it up and hit your mark. Then gut your kill and eat it. Keep it simple, then dabble in the tech stuff.Simple has been around a lot longer than the tech stuff.JMHO :thumbsup:
I'm not into measuring KE. But, it seems that many think that KE goes up with lighter arrows and speed-wrong. Take any bow, and the heavier arrow will still give more KE.
QuoteOriginally posted by CG:
I'm not into measuring KE. But, it seems that many think that KE goes up with lighter arrows and speed-wrong. Take any bow, and the heavier arrow will still give more KE.
Since the formula for Ke is KE= 1/2 MV^2 m= mass, v= velocity
Mass X Velocity squared.. Velocity is still the driving force... as mass increases and velocity drops the Ke does not increase as it would with a drop in mass resulting in an increase in velocity..
QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
Think about what is the most common grain weight trad head in the past 30+ years.125gr so add it to a wood shaft and sharpen it up and hit your mark. Then gut your kill and eat it. Keep it simple, then dabble in the tech stuff.Simple has been around a lot longer than the tech stuff.JMHO :thumbsup:
That's what I ment to say. :biglaugh:
I've been mired to wood, mostly cedar, for the 40 plus years I've been lobbing arrows. Two years in there I played with aluminum and a 30% letoff wheeliebow, but they were big 'ol 32" arrows and not much lighter than cedar. In that time the heaviest head I've used was a 145 gr Bear Razorhead. Usually it's a 125 or 130 gr head. I never got into African game or carbons, so I never wandered through the tables and charts of the current alchemists that turn extreme head weight into gold. I actually consider traditional bowhunting an escape from such things.
Sorry if I/we have muddied up CountryRoad's original question.
QuoteHelp me understand why it is advised to shoot a heavy 600+ grain total arrow out of my 53# longbow the compound shooter in me says speed kills and velocity is the begining of kenetic energy so will it hurt my bow to shoot a 450 grain arrow including 125 grain broadhead and get flatter tradjectory as long as it is shooting straight and tuning right? new at this trad stuff but love shooting it is the most addictive thing i have done dont recall wanting to shoot my top of the food chain bow this much.
Sharp kills. Speed isn't everthing as a fast, light arrow may expend it's energy before much damage is done. Speed does allow a better trajectory but out to 25 yards isn't much of a handicap. A traditional bow likes an arrow that weighs 9 to 11 grains for every pound of draw weight. Too light and the shock is absorbed by the limbs instead of the arrow and may eventually damage something. Most of these statements are arguable (as you may have noticed).
I hunt whitetail deer. My arrows weigh 580 grains, are launched from bows of 55 to 60# draw weight, carry a sharp dual-edged 125 gr head and will split ribs on both sides of a 200 lb deer and still carry through - occassionally completely past the deer and beyond - but have always produced two holes and very compromised lungs or fatal hemmoraging. My bowhunting mentor used similar equipment to harvest deer very consistantly and had been a "traditional" bowhunter for deer all his life (never used a rifle, slug gun or compound bow or any non-wood arrow - it was bowhunting to him, not
traditional bowhunting) and I followed his methods. The only deer I hit well and lost was with a very wide Zephyr Sasquatch that was an almost straight-down shot from a treestand and, I now know, a poor angle.
That's my story and hope it helps.
I beleive the 10 grn/lb of Bow weight is more than adequate,but,nothin wrong with 11 or 12 if you get good flight from them,especially if the weight is up front like say 18-21% FOC.
Just my opinion
What Javi said. . . if calculating KE, speed is everything. That's why it is so special to compound mfr's. That's why I asked that earlier question of Mike (Wingnut).
The compound allows many wonderful things and these things were accentuated by the uprising of carbon arrows. Extremely light, extremely stiff shafts that can tolerate that torque and still fly well. The lighter the arrow, in any bow, the faster the flight.
But all in all, if you shoot a 600 grain arrow out of any compound, I sincerely doubt you will be attaining 350 fps. On the contrary. That would severely drop the KE for that particular combination.
Momentum measures something different and mass and velocity are on equal footing. A rise in either will bring up the numbers.
As brought up earlier though, there are several other factors that have a lot, maybe even more to do with penetration. . broadhead sharpness and tip shape / size. . the straightness of the arrow as it hits the target, and even the arrows ability to maintain that straighness after hitting the target. The target moving could affect these and negate otherwise perfect flight.
So many things. . and I am not smart enough to figure all that out. Just get a set up that shoots well for you, stay within about 8 or 9 to 12 grains per pound of bow and go get em.
Practice til you hit well at your range, learn to sharpen those heads well, learn where you should be aiming at the critter you are hunting,and you will have done your part.
ChuckC
Great thread / good info. all the way around.
When I shoot with others using light arrows and not much FOC...it is amazing how much deeper penetration I get.
I want my whitetail setup the same as my elk setup so I'm ready to go either way.
QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
Mass X Velocity squared.. Velocity is still the driving force... as mass increases and velocity drops the Ke does not increase as it would with a drop in mass resulting in an increase in velocity..
With all due respect Javi, that is completely false. Look at this test that Norb Mullaney did on the Tomohawk longbow Tomohawk Bow Test (http://www.tomahawkbows.com/images/tomahawk/ts_ds_1.pdf) . Using arrows from 360 to 654 grains, he reported the speed and then calculated the KE. The 654 grain arrow had the most KE.
Compounds are the same way. Here is another review by Norb on a Mattews Matthews Bow Test (http://mathewsinc.com/data/mathewsinc/file/245_45244_BowRprtBW09aug.pdf) . Taking those results and calculating the KE (i.e. V X V X M /450240), the lightest arrow (350 grain) had a KE of 73.266, and the heaviest (650) had a KE of 76.171.
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
What Javi said. . . if calculating KE, speed is everything. That's why it is so special to compound mfr's. That's why I asked that earlier question of Mike (Wingnut).
But all in all, if you shoot a 600 grain arrow out of any compound, I sincerely doubt you will be attaining 350 fps. On the contrary. That would severely drop the KE for that particular combination.
Chuck, see the link above on the Matthews bow test. And, Wingnut's responded to your question by saying that the KE would have been about 3% more with the heavier arrows.
As I stated before, I don't really care about KE. I don't think it represents a good measure of deciding the killing ability of a bow setup. I agree that it favors compounds in that,
if arrow weight is the same, it favors the faster bow . On the other hand, even though I don't care for the measurement, I still want to point out the facts.
Respectfully,
Cooper
At the risk of sounding like a techno geek .... and if I remember my physics right guys (it has been a very long time since I have been it class), I have a different take on this.
Kinetic Energy comes from what is known as potential energy (energy stored at rest). You cannot change these laws of physics. The K.E. comes from the bow. The bow basically changes "potential" energy stored in the limbs at full draw into kenetic energy at the release of the bow. All bows will have certain characteristics (all different I might add) that makes it more or less effective at transforming its potential energy into kenetic energy. In other words there is only so much there to capture. I would venture to say that if you did the K.E. calcs through a range of head weights, speed will go down proportionately so that K.E. remains basically the same for THAT BOW. The effeciency at transferring the potential energy MAY change a little in the bow as you "load" it, but it will not be much within an acceptable range.
MOMENTUM is a different story. THAT IS WHY HEAVIER IS BETTER for penetration, but ONLY to a point. The best is a balance between FOC and trajectory (speed). It is a rule of thumb, but 10 gpp and 15-20% or so FOC has been "accepted" for a long time by people who don't even care WHY it works, they just know it works and we all would be wise to take their advice. JMHO though.
Razor sharp broadheads on perfectly flying arrows kill game effectively. Everything else is window dressing. Heavier arrows (within a reasonable range) are better for hunting because the bow is quieter and they are not affected by other influences as much as lightweight arrows. Energy smenergy, these are the important things.
Cooper, you didn't highlight the complete sentence....
as mass increases and velocity drops the Ke does not increase as it would with a drop in mass resulting in an increase in velocity..
The ratio of increase/decrease in Ke is driven by velocity times velocity multiplied by mass therefore the increase or decrease in velocity must always win when compared to an increase or decrease in mass... And yes a heavier arrow will have more Ke than a lighter arrow unless the decrease in velocity is substantial.
Let's look at a archery scenario now...
200 x 200 = 40000 x 452 = 18080000 / 450240 = 40.16
200 x 200 = 40000 x 430 = 17200000 / 450240 = 38.20
210 x 210 = 44100 x 430 = 18963000 / 450240 = 42.12
You notice that a 5% increase in velocity results in an increase in Ke of 10.2% while a 5% increase in mass at the same velocity only resulted in a 9.5% increase in Ke
Ke is not however a good judge of penetration potential it is a measure of total energy not forward motion energy. If you have a 4 pound hammer according to Ke if that hammer is swung with enough force to reach 100 fps speed it would have a Ke of 100fps x 100fps = 10,000 x 28000 = 280,000,000 / 450,240 = 621.89 Ke and that's a lot of energy... but would you choose a 4 lb hammer that had a 1 lb head or a 4lb hammer with a 3lb head if you had to drive a nail.. Remember both have the same Ke... :D
Recurve and longbows do not suffer nearly as much velocity change for arrow weight as do compounds a compound speed varies approximately 1 fps for every 3 grains in arrow weight... what do you suppose that ratio is for traditional equipment..??? I haven't tested it because I haven't worried about it... I shoot heavy arrows with good weight forward ratios because I hunt a variety of animals ranging from rabbits to exotics like the Red Stag and hogs here in Texas and I'm not going to change equipment every time I head to the woods.. My arrows hit where I'm looking at any range I choose to limit myself to so I only worry about driving a sharp BH completely through the animal I've chosen to shoot today...
Josh, never hunted moose or elk, but I have seen both rib cages and bone structure and sorry but elk are not even close to a big bull moose. I actually watched a video of a guy shooting a .5 cal. round ball at about 18fps. and it bounce off a moose rib. I know of a lot more elk killed with 45-50# bows and 8-9gpp. than moose. Shawn
I would like to comment on Stumkillers post above, my 8 to 9 gpp. arrows do the same thing, so what dose it matter. I actually not only get two hole but lots of pass thrus as long as I stay off the shoulder and even when I hit shoulder I get enough penetration to get both lungs as well. I beleive the well tuned bow that you shoot accurately with a very sharp head is lot more important than the weight of arrow you shoot, again unless you are hunting the really big critters. Shawn
Ok... went and tested my longbow with different arrow weights to see what the ratio of velocity loss is to mass..
Averaged 10 shots at each weight.. rounded numbers are...
479 grain arrow 150fps
530 grain arrow 146 fps
difference in weight 51 grains
difference in speed 4 fps
not a conclusive study by any means but it appears that the ratio at least for MY longbow is 51/4 = 1 fps per 12.75 grains.. Hummmmm I wonder... may need to pull a 600 grain and test that...
Javi:
If I did this right, KE calcs are as follows:
for 479 gr = 23.94 ft-lbs
for 530 gr = 25.09 ft-lbs
1.15 ft-lb more for heavier arrow. Pretty close (less than 5%). Go shoot a 600 grain and a 450 grain arrow.
I THINK??? all will be pretty close which proves my point that the bow can only store/deliver s certain amount of K.E. (within reason), so slightly heavy, 10gpp works.
Mike I somehow think we probably agree on these things--maybe just the way we are saying it makes it appear that we don't.
My only point was that people often wrongly claim that a given bow will have the highest KE with the lowest weight arrow and highest speed. Actual data refutes that. Even though the velocity is squared, it is still multiplied by the weigth which is typically a lot larger number (thus the reason it trumps the square in velocity). Actual bow test data proves that (see links in my last post for proof).
Bottom line--the reason KE doesn't matter to me is not becuase it favors light arrows (because it doesn't), but becuase an arrow doesn't kill with ft lbs like a rifle.
QuoteOriginally posted by awbowman:
Javi:
If I did this right, KE calcs are as follows:
for 479 gr = 23.94 ft-lbs
for 530 gr = 25.09 ft-lbs
1.15 ft-lb more for heavier arrow. Pretty close (less than 5%). Go shoot a 600 grain and a 450 grain arrow.
I THINK??? all will be pretty close which proves my point that the bow can only store/deliver s certain amount of K.E. (within reason), so slightly heavy, 10gpp works.
I'm more interested in the reason to shoot a lighter arrow and what gain if any there is from doing so..
I shoot 47lbs at my draw length (28") so my 479 grain arrow is just barely over 10 grains per pound if I use the ratio that I saw in my testing and went to an 8gpp arrow 376 grains... what would I gain?
Let's see... 479 – 376 = 103 grains... 103/12.75 = 8 fps so my gain would be 8/150 = 5%
158 x 158 = 24,964 x 376 = 9,386,464/450,240 =20.85 Ke
150 x 150 = 22,500 x 479 = 10,777,500/450,240 = 23.94 Ke
So I'd give up 8.7% of my Ke for an 8 fps 5% gain in speed... and a nosier bow which I'd have to make quieter by adding dampening weight on the string... losing the speed I gained... hummmmm :D
I will shoot a 600 grain just to see if the same ratio applies.. but I reckon the 10 grain per pound is a good place to be at least for me... But shooting the 600 might change my mind and I'll bump the weight up..
Ok... went and tested 2 more arrow weights...
601 = 140 fps 26.16 Ke
346 = 170 fps 22.2 Ke
So that shows a ratio of grains to speed of 8.5 over a greater spread..
Guess I'm finding out that even though I simplified my life by returning to TRAD and removing all the gadgetry from my bow, I can't turn off my engineer brain... I still got to know how it works.. :biglaugh:
javi's test makes since there is not eough gain in speed to really matter from 370 to 600 about 25fps when you consider the noise and vibration factor of a lighter arrow. stealth and accuracery are still more important because i can tell a big differance in vibration from my buddys heavier arrows, much less.
for when things don't go right or big hogs.
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
I would like to comment on Stumkillers post above, my 8 to 9 gpp. arrows do the same thing, so what dose it matter. I actually not only get two hole but lots of pass thrus as long as I stay off the shoulder and even when I hit shoulder I get enough penetration to get both lungs as well. I beleive the well tuned bow that you shoot accurately with a very sharp head is lot more important than the weight of arrow you shoot, again unless you are hunting the really big critters. Shawn
I also said this:
QuoteEach of us has to be confident in OUR equipment or we might as well stay home. I am confident in mine and, as a traditionalist using what has been taught me, I ain't changing. ;-) I'm happy for you if you are confident in yours.
They said if I shot Traditional I wouldnt have to do all the math...
Folks been shootin 8-10 gpp for years, why? cuz it works, they like it.
Folks been shootin 10-12+ gpp for years, why? cuz it works, they like it.
Soo..pick and stick with a setup that you shoot well, get it tuned as close to perfect as you can. A fine tuned setup shoots well, so you shoot well and that builds confidence. Confidence in yourself and your equipment is more important than any KE,FPS,GPP....
Eric
"the compound shooter in me says speed kills and velocity is the begining of kenetic energy"
First of all, I think you should forget about what the compound shooter says in you. Your not comparing apples to apples if you try and compare what you are doing with a compund versus a longbow or a recurve. There are alot of different opinions on this subject, so let me give you mine.
Alot of bowyers will not warrenty their bow if you do not shoot over 8-9 GPP. I would use that as my "guide". I personally belive that a heavy arrow will give you more penetration. I shoot the weight I do (750 gr)because it keeps my bow quiet, and it hits hard. My mind is used to it and I see no reason to change.It is what works for me..
Although I have heard that 10 gpp is the perfect combination of speed and penetration. I still shoot what I feel works the best for ME. When I was starting out with traditional I did alot of expermenting with differnt arrow combinations, until I found what works the best. I wasnt worried about a flat tradjectory because I dont shoot game out of my "comfort zone", which is 20 yards. Do what works best for YOU and just shoot and have fun. I found out that ounce I got to this point I just made, its all up to you to practice, and to train your internal computer..
I believe in keeping it simple, and I leave the math out of it. It doesnt matter to me that arrow "A" will give me a "X" amount of more velosity, then arrow "B"... Have fun, and keep us posted :thumbsup:
All I know is I hunt with a friend who uses a compound 65#@28"that is top of the line his arrow is around 500gr I shoot a Tomahawk SS 63#@29 my arrows is 603gr when shooting at 30yards his set up only had about 2" more penetration then my arrow this is into my block target both are carbon arrows.
well....I've just been shooting whatever aluminum or wood that works with whatever bow, they all end up at 9 to 11 GR per #...and all end up in the dirt on the other side. The rest of this math is wasted energy that could be better spent with loved ones and friends or cooking up a big pot of Chorzo n beans.
I think we burn too many brain cells with these KE vs. Momentum debates. The bottom line is that they are correlated and based on the same two variables - speed and arrow weight.
You can convert one to the other:
KE = (momentum^2*112700)/arrow weight
Momentum = sqrt(KE*arrow weight/112700)
http://archeryreport.com/2009/11/arrow-kinetic-energy-momentum-archer/
If one goes up, the other goes up. If one goes down, the other goes down.