Just purchased a KME knife sharpener and have been working with Jake on sharpening some Stingers. I have nothing but great things to say about the KME sharpener and thier service. Get one you will like it.
So here is the deal. I believe I have the Stingers somewhat sharper than they come in the package. I can take the hair right off my arm, but they still are not as sharp as I would like. I would like razor-sharp, so sharp that you have to avoid the edges and I am not there at all.
How do you know when you have them as sharp as you can?? Is there some kind of test other than cutting the hair off your arm ;)
Applying only the weight of the BH, set the BH across your thumbnail at about 45 degrees...then drag the BH across the thumbnail in a direction perpendicular to the BH edge. If the edge is sharp it should immediately grab into the nail with no pressure whatsoever. Hope that makes sense.
Brett
Thanks Brett, I did that last night and it did leave a slight cut on nail, but I did not feel a drag or grab much.
I will try that again this weekend.
RAy,
What angle are you using on the BH edge? To get a true razor edge, you would have to really thin the edge down to the point where the edge could be considered fragile. I get my heads sharp then run them on a set of fine crock sticks to fine hone the egde. I guess I'm doing 17-20ish degree on my BH's and I feel it gets them real sharp but retains edge strength. I have been using this method of sharpening for a long time and it works well for me. If it ain't broke...
JL
JL,
I am still working on that, but it is somewhere between 25 and 22. I guess it makes some sense that the shallow angle would be more razor shaper
They take hair off your arm!!! But still not as sharp as you would like - How do you know they arn't? That's you answer.
Bowmania
Typically shaving hair easily has been the standard test for most and does seem to work well, dragging across your nail can be inconclusive depending on how much you angle the blade into the nail as you move it and how rough the edge actually is. I guess this question always will come up cuz nobody really knows "how sharp is sharp"? I deal with this question quite often with our customers.
A thinner edge angle on your blade will be sharper and easier to resharpen but it will also be weaker and what good does it do to have a super sharp edge if the edge integrity is lost the moment it impacts the animal, you still need the edge intact and sharp as it passes thru the animal. That is why pretty much 20 degrees is the standard on most knife blades and broadheads will normally run in the 20-25 degree angle.
If they will shave my arm I'm happy.
There are a couple tests I like. The "hair off your arm" for honed edges and a rubberband for filed.
Hold a rubberband so it is just taught between the thumb and middlefinger of one hand and push the broadhead edge along it with just the weight of the arrow for downward force. It should slice it cleanly without stuttering in a single pass. Works for a honed edge, too.
I just did up six Magnus II and my left arm is bald from the shoulder down to the middle of my forearm. :thumbsup: There is something relaxing and satisfying about filing and honing broadheads.
Note on the arm hair: a really sharp broadhead will "pop" the hair so that you can actually hear it crackle.
Thanks everyone for the responses...
I was just searching and found a ton of information on this subject, I should have done that first. I think we have covered all the "standard" testing methods.
Bowmania, you are right I don't know.
Mark I find your response very insightful I was coming to the same conclusion. Perhaps razor sharp is NOT so good anyway.
I am thinking that more practice will help me, I have always used the stingers out of the package with an accu sharp every once-in-a-while. Never had problems killing deer and hogs like that. So I am probably good to go.
Still it is a nagging question isn't it. Do I have the broadhead to that perfect sharpness for what us bowhunters want?
When we teach, to emphasize how important a razor sharp broadhead is, we use a shower ring that has several layers of rubber bands stretched across it. Then the broadhead tipped arrow is passed through with very little pressure. The rubber bands explode when they come into contact with the broadhead. We then show how it is with a dull broadhead and a not so sharp one. They pull and grab, rather than slice right through. The rubber bands simulate veins and arteries in an animal. this works very well.
When I set my Snuffers on my arm and hair 3 inches in front of the blade jumps off in fear :-) they are ready to hunt with ;-)
When I barely run my finger over the edge and it scares me how sharp it feels. :scared:
When it puts six stitches in your left thunb, and immediately puts six stitches in your left pointing finger. Plus, you are on blood thinner. Needles to sayh you don't stop to clean up your basement work table. Jim
QuoteOriginally posted by Steertalker:
Applying only the weight of the BH, set the BH across your thumbnail at about 45 degrees...then drag the BH across the thumbnail in a direction perpendicular to the BH edge. If the edge is sharp it should immediately grab into the nail with no pressure whatsoever. Hope that makes sense.
Brett
Thats pretty much how I tell if mine are...... I dont get mine mirrored but i get em so they stick immediatley on my nail....Ive shot straight through animals with that...
Good Luck
Dave
How about if you drop the arrow from about 6 inches and it hits your leg, penetrating 1.5" and narrowly missing an artery, sending you to the emergency room? I won't say who this happened to, but um the scar is interesting and the broadhead was, I think, sharp ENOUGH.
If the hair on your arm jumps or pops as soon as the blade touchs without any preasure than you could most likely shave your face with it which is much harder than shaving arm hair.I'm NOT suggesting shaving your face that'd be entirely up to you LOL but hairs popping at the touch will be sharp enuff
Someday I'm gonna get a KME maybe this yr at Denton
I have found that light stropping on cardboard that has been rubbed with jewelers rouge after the initial sharpening will take it to another level of sharp.
Gilbert
RayMo,
In order to get them sharper go to finer and finer grit on your sharpening surface. I have the KME and the set of stones but like to use a piece of plate glass and wet/dry sandpaper on it. I only go as fine as 600 grit right now but you can go down to 2000 to get a mirror edge that should be scalpel sharp. I know my Grizzly's are plenty sharp to scare me now, I can't imagine getting them any shaper. Do a search for JimG - he has some pics of his Grizzly's with a mirror edge.
I have always sharpened until I could push the blade across my thigh and shave hair. Then, I talked to a broad head maker. He said I should test by pushing the blade forward, the same way it would go into an animal to test.
I've been a fantatic about hair-shaving sharp all these years, Sometimes I wonder if I've gone overboard. I've heard of so many acccomplished bowhunters who simply use a file to touch up heads. I've never tried that but I wouldn't think a file would produce hair-shaving sharp?
Broadheads can be oversharpened, they can get to an extremely sharp point to where any more sharpening actually dulls the edge youve worked so hard to put on them! I check progress often, and do the cheap 'ol rubberband test! With a double bevel broadhead im a fan of the rougher file edge that i get with my TruAngle file set! Its an easy edge to acquire on almost any head, its easily maintained(with a little fishing reel grease on the edges ive had it last the whole season in my quiver and still remain hunting sharp), it produces great/short bloodtrails! If you can get a head to a razor edge good for you, but a ridgid edge has and will continue to produce without doin a disservice to any animal!
Surgeons will say the reason they like the razor edge is its a cleaner cut(easier to stitch and reduces scarring) and they can control hemmoraging better with it! Well who the h@#$ wants that in a hunting head anyway!
sharpness of a broadhead is a personal thing amung trad shooters.I have seen some guys broadheads what I consider dull and they believe they are sharp.I have always considered shaving hair on ones arm to be shaving sharp and that has always served me well.Like others have said you do not want to get the edge to thin,it will role and become dull very quickly.
huntrex that a tought way to check for sharpness!!!I also did a silly thing with a snuffer once.Had a wood arrow in left hand,had a hot snuffer with a pair of pliers in right hand .Was pushing and twisting the head on the shaft with some force.The pliers sliped off and I jabed the snuffer in my right forarm
and it was dull.It left a cool looking reminder...
I can't remember the term "hemostatic-something or another". Medical folks say a jagged edge vs a clean razor edge clots more easily and quicker due to blood chemistry and physical properties. So, I'm after a scalpel cut.
Hair popping sharp as Stumpkiller described is what I use as my rule of thumb. I've only killed one animal so far with my Magnus 3 blade Snuffers so far that were hair popping sharp and they went through a coyote like he wasn't even there. Shot through the left front shoulder and out behind the right shoulder slick as butter. Arrow and Snuffer buried up about 4" in the dirt on the opposite side. Bled out in a matter of seconds, so that's what I consider to be plenty sharp to get the job done.
If the hair jumps off when you shave it, your good to go.
Louis Armbruster of Zebra longbows shot over a hundred deer mostly with Zwicky Eskimoes that were file sharpened then with the narrow flat of the file on one side he would pull up a large bur. I tried it found that it gave good blood trails and the bur stayed intact more than one would expect. I sharpened Grizzlys by filing on the bevel side, doing the short flat stroke to cleanup or raise the bur on the flat side and sometimes ran the corner of the file down flat side like Hill did to get a serration. That worked good as well on deer. Many times I have used an edge that was easily shaving sharp and possibly too narrow, but I have not seen that that edge falls apart on the hit with my broadheads either. I have used the Hill method and was always surprised how effective it is. I know of a fellow that has shot many game animals, even moose, using the Hill method and gets good blood trails most of the time with it. The edge that never works is when someone is trying to get a shaving edge and they do not quite get there and end up with a roundy sharpening job with a very small irregular bur that seems sharp to the touch. When hit with a strop on a leather belt that bur comes off and the broadhead behind it is dull.
There's obviously fuel for debate here. I like a honed edge on harder steel - like the Magnus or Stos (or a Grizzly, for example), but the RibTeks I keep file sharp as they are softer and tend to lose the edge through handling or (just exposure to air, etc.) The "ax-sharp" edge is sharp and aggressive when done right and can be refreshed in 30 seconds with a Grizzly or Grobet file or similar second cut mill file (used to sharpen saws and planer blades). I have an 8" one in a sheath on my quiver but prefer 10" or 12" at home. And I can testify from handling them or from ax & hatchet mishaps a slice from that edge bleeds extremely well, also. I have a carbon-steel forged rifleman's knife I file sharpen and it is an effective knife edge as well. The secret is light pressure and good, fresh files.
I also really like the S-24 Tru-Angle jig for establishing the initial angles on the heads.
I bought a cheap new file once to sharpen a new set of Grzzlys. At the time I was thinking that I got a set of over tempered broadheads, but it could also be a case of an under tempered file. What I like about the Grizzly file is the round narrow flat can be used like a steel or with the single points of the file pattern coming to corner, it can give a very fine and deadly serration. For my shaving sharp Grizzlys I use the single bevel duber from alaska bowhunters supply fo9r field touch ups. For straight edged single bevels by using the honing surface, I can get my shaving edge back and if I 'heaven forbid' miss I can completely resharpen a head while I settle down after my failure. Plus it is small and fits in any pocket.
The emergency room doctor tells you, as he stitches up your finger.
Im a shooter of the Ace broadheads, and i prefer the file edge for its longevity vs a fine honed edge! I do just a light free hand stropping on cardboard after the TruAngle filing! Thanks for the backup Stump'!
How about you shoot it into a deer that drops in sight and gets stuck in the bone. Then when you pry it out it cuts a 2 inch gash in your left hand and you use a bottle of liquid bandage and a tube or crazy glue and bandages to stop the bleeding so you can finish butchering it!!! :knothead: I think I now know when my broadheads are sharp.
Ah well, since I KNOW you all will allow me to be a bit.....off the wall, I will add two cents.
Yep.....super duper sharp is IDEAL and we should do our best, as we do in all we do, to get them so.
How-some-ever.....let me back up to basics.
Some heads, I can get "scary" sharp, some I cant but they both penetrate and fly great. I KNOW they will, and HAVE killed deer with both (and others)...and see little to NO difference. It's ODD for me to have a deer go more than 50-60 yards and has been that way some 35? OMG...40!!....years.
I've shot deer with em both (and a multitude of others)and a couple things seem to be consistant, yet are so obviously OBVIOUS that we tend to over think things (or is it that just ME??)and worry about technicalities a bit too much.
From ye olde trad archers of decades past carrying file sharpened heads for days and days in a back quiver rattling around to the (arghhh) NOT SO FREAKIN SHARP mechanical heads of today........they all have dispatched deer in "good form".........IF they are put in the boiler room.( and LOTS that WEREN'T)
Putting a "leak" in the cardio-vascular system of ANY creature causes fairly rapid exsanguination......it bleeds to death for us of a more limited vocabulary (I had to look that up!!)
So, not to get myself beheaded here.....please allow me to simply return to the SINGLE most important factor........arrow placement.
Should the errant drug crazed neighborhood nut case jump in and stab one in the chest with a handy steak knife, little doubt is given to the thought of what may happen if you don't get your keister to the hospital....NOW! And that would only be a "one lunger". lol
A poor comparison, sorry, but give thought to what your chances would be with TWO punctured lungs......not very good.
There are some C R A Z Y old collectable broadheads out there that somewhere along the line SOMEONE shot deer with........for promoting them. It's tough for us to argue with ......"hey, it killed this one just dandy" ads, yet few of us would venture forth with them on the end of OUR arrows, not these days.
Imagine sharpening a Browning Serpentine or a Mohawk! Pfffffffffffft!
I attempt not to "downgrade" the importance of a head as sharp as you can get it but......there is a point to where it can be a negative MENTAL thing effecting the hunter's confidence.
Hopefully, I haven't put anyone to sleep yet. Let me give an example.
I have a buddy, a danged GOOD hunter, life long trad shooter of 60-70s Bear bows that, year in and year out, sits for hours on end sharpening heads, never happy with the results.
We've gotten about all the "gizmos" to help him we could find.....he's never happy "IT'S NOT RAZOR SHARP"!! he cries
THIS bothers him SO MUCH that he starts having negative thoughts of the effectiveness of his set up EVEN THOUGH he has successfully taken dozens of deer, some real wall hangers too.
I repeatedly see him "pass" on shots I would take in a heartbeat.....he has no faith in his set up...and it IS a NEGATIVE thing with NEGATIVE results. No one wants that. (he IS a bit anal though lol, God Bless him.)
This negativity......eats at one and places doubts where none should be and DOES effect the hunter's affectability......at least IMHO.
Archery, to me and some will agree, is hugely a "mental" thing and in a short phrase let me tell you my entire philosophy.....
CONFIDENCE KILLS!!!!
BELIEVING in your set up and your ability with it is the single biggest, baddest, most mandatory, gotta have or I'm not going, attitude!
We all gain that in similar but varying ways.
Bow poundage
Arrow weight
Broadhead type
Arrow flight
Broadhead sharpness
.........and practice, practice, practice.
Some of those link together.
A poundage we can shoot WELL (not only the weight adequate for the game...like some choose).
Arrow weight...without opening that pandora's box, lets agree we pick the one we have FAITH IN.
Broadhead type......preaching to the choir here on this one. A good solid head we like is enough to say.
Arrow flight and being able to "put er there" (with the bow weight allowing so)are the ONLY two mandatory IMO.(with legal bow weights incorporated, of course)
Yep, having ALL OF EM is "more better" but with a bow weight I can shoot well, a sturdy well flying arrow, and solid head, I am here to tell you that any game walking the US is in dire need of hiding.
Notice.......sharpness was omitted in my vast description.
Yes!!
A sharper head will out penetrate a duller one....but how much?
Yes!!
A sharper head will be an advantage on a "poor shot". Ive no arguement there but WONDER if a LARGER head (one's like I like) isn't somewhat of an alternative that is also effective, AS LONG AS adequate energy is there to push em.
For those that think not.....one only needs to look at the HUGE dang heads wheelie shooters shoot and the effects of some of the shots. I dont LIKE em, but have butchered too many and helped too many drag em out to say "they dont work".
Regardless.....a poor shot is a poor shot. Even a 460 Weatherby cant "fix" that.
Before you lynch me, please do not think that I am advocating "dull" heads. I am not in any way.
What I hope to portray is that this single factor (that being one of RAZOR sharpness) ISNT needed to make you a good, if not great bowhunter.
Go for it. Do your best. Get the best edge you can get without having hemorrages over it,(yes, that is a play on words, :D ) and go hunting.
I've shot more deer than I wish to share, through, THROUGH the scapula. The head was DULL DULL DULL after going through, yet NONE of them made it more than 60 yards.
I m mm mmm missed a buck once and as I went to pull the arrow out of the dirt and clean it off, a doe trotted up. Zip! 40 yards, brown and down with a double lung shot.
The first years of my uneducated bowhunting had me out amongst em zinging deer with factory "sharpened" heads. Amazing what one can do when too ignorant to know it's "impossible".
So let me end this chapter of my opinions with a simple statement.
Our set up is capable of more than we are. Do your best, but "perfect" is a "will-o'-the-wisp" factor that will stay a pace or two ahead of us all our lives........and is not mandatory, yet shooting for it is commendable.
Don't allow "less than perfect" to put a leak in your confidence level.
A "reasonably" sharp, well made head with adequate "push" will dispatch EVERY living creature without a hitch.
As always, NO offense to those that put a lot of their faith in a razor sharp head. Obviously that is a "good thing" but for me.......eh, again
"it ain't broke......so no need to "fix" it"
You cant poke a 1 1/8 (or larger) inch "hole" in both an animals lungs and not have it die......quickly and a Poor Shot.....is still a poor shot, and results dont vary much regardless of what leads the way.
Somewhere along the way, a couple decades ago, someone convinced someone else that this wasnt accurate and "behold" the "razor sharp" (not) replacable blade heads came to be.
I've HAD bowhunters tell me "I shot him right behind the shoulder, broadside and he didnt die"......balderdash.
I can wager that MOST of you shoot sharper heads than mine. I file sharpen them and know they will go where I look and know they will penetrate...and work quickly. Blood trails?....the majority are followed at a walk but it's rare for me to not see them go down unless heavy cover is close.
Get your confidence where you will. A super sharp head is one way to boost it, yet I am here to tell you that MANDATORY...it flat aint, and FOR ME....it's a ways down the list of "gotta haves".
JUST my two cents gained these past decades......food for thought......or not.
ok, lynch away! *grin*
God Bless
Steve
Very good Steve, that pretty much covers it.
When you leave just a tad of a WW sticking out of the bow quiver in the predawn darkness as you are getting set to climb the tree. Halfway up the tree you notice your hand feels sticky and in the beam of the headlamp you notice blood all over your climbing tree stand..... gee where did that blood come from ? Did I get my stand bloody from the last deer I killed ? Ughhh, no that is MY blood !!! Where am I cut and how did I do it ? That my friends is when you know your broadhead is sharp.
Or you are learning to knap Obsidian and after an hour or so you notice your sock is red.... gee what happened ? Never knap in shorts where your leg is exposed to flying flakes of Obsidian ! A flake had hit me right above the ankle and I never knew I was even cut till I happen to see the red sock that used to be white !
CONFIDENCE KILLS sums it up!!!
Steve,
I like your thinking. I've harbored such thoughts for many years. I've been mostly a nut about getting a shaving-sharp edge most of the past 40 years. However, I know I've killed deer and other big game with what I call "quiver-dulled" heads that probably would no longer have passed my shave-test. These broadheads caused the same extreme allergic reaction to the beast they passed through that the freshly touched up ones did.
You covered it all for me--yep, get em sharp, keep em sharp, and place em where there's no question.
Some might be concerned that a "newbie" might misinterpret your post regarding the importance of sharp broadheads. But you covered that well as you prioritized the attributes of deadly.
Thanks to everyone for the great posts!
Last night Ron from KME called at 7:00 pm (that's a Friday night guys) and walked me thru the sharpening process on the phone. What great customer service! I can now get the stingers to my satisfaction and knives are a snap. I have never been able to put an edge on anything before.
I took a very thin piece of wood and glued leather to it, this works great in the KME knife sharpened for the final edge.
Ray
If it'll shave, it's plenty sharp.
Way to go Ray.I finally,after decades,learned how to put a fine edge on my blades,also thanks to Ron.
I didn't go back and read the entire thread again,so maybe someone touched on this but I'll through out a thought.I'm not telling anybody what kind of edge to use.I'm still learning myself after 40 some years doing this.
As a full time taxidermist and not a young one,I've cut myself more than once with a variety of different type edges.The honed,polished edges cause the least discomfort.I'm talking the kind where you notice you are leaving a little blood trail,and didn't realize you were cut.
I think this,combined with pass throughs,can lead to shorter recoveries.I shot an antelope this year,through the liver,and it went down in 35 yds. and acted like it didn't know it was hit.That is the shortest distance I've ever had an antelope go,and with a marginal hit.I think the honed,polished,KME edge may have been a big factor.Antelope cover ground very fast and they are wired.They can make 100 yds in about 4 seconds.
I normally can watch my game go down but there will be times I will hunt elk in thick stuff and black bears on the edge of jungles.Anything that might shorten the distance traveled after a hit,is something I like.I also like the idea of less discomfort/stress,in and of itself.
I found this on a site called sharpeningsupplies.
"What is sharp?
To understand sharpness you must first understand the definition of an edge. An edge is the line of intersection of two surfaces. A highly sharpened edge is one where the two surfaces are highly polished to form a very fine edge. Sharpening is the means to that very fine edge.
There are countless ways of testing knives and tools for sharpness. We believe the easiest way to test sharpness is to use the tool or knife. If it does not cut fast and cleanly, it needs sharpening. On a kitchen knife, the knife should be able to cut vegetables with almost no downward pressure. On a woodworking tool, the tool should cut wood fibers cleanly without leaving marks or crushing the wood fibers. On a fillet or skinning knife, it should be able to cut very quickly without having to saw through the meat.
If you really want to get down to fine-tuned levels of sharpness there are a few more tests you can use. My personal favorite is to take a piece of paper and hold it vertically. If you try to cut it with a dull knife, the paper will crumple beneath the knife. A sharp knife will cut it cleanly when use a slicing motion to cut through the paper. A razor sharp knife can cut the paper cleanly by just pressing down on the edge of paper without any slicing at all.
Another test is to shave the hair on your arms. While we recommend caution using this method, it can be very useful. A dull or even moderately sharp knife will just fold over your arm hairs without cutting. A well sharpened knife will cut almost all of the hairs in one pass. A very sharp knife will cut all the hairs in its path. This level of sharpness can only be attained using the finest abrasive materials.
Another factor effecting edge sharpness is the angle it is sharpened. The lower the angle, the sharper the blade becomes. However, the lower the angle, the weaker the edge becomes. Very low angle blades like a razor blade or a fillet knife will ultimately have a sharper edge than high angle tools such as an axe."
Thanks to everyone for the great posts!
Last night Ron from KME called at 7:00 pm (that's a Friday night guys) and walked me thru the sharpening process on the phone. What great customer service! I can now get the stingers to my satisfaction and knives are a snap. I have never been able to put an edge on anything before.
I took a very thin piece of wood and glued leather to it, this works great in the KME knife sharpened for the final edge.
Ray
JimB,
Thanks for sharing this information!
JimB and Steve, thanks for you input on this. Steve I agree with what you had to say. For many years I have used stingers out of the package and they are deadly, maybe the scary sharp edge is a confidence thing. Really not sure, but that issue aside it sure is nice to be able to put an edge on heads and knives
Very good and informational info. Steve, you hit it head on...nothing replaced good arrow placement...nothing. Having confidence in your abilities sure helps. JimB...thanks for sharig your method...I have placed my order for the Dia-sharp items and look forward to producing sharp blades using my KME system. I'm going for Elk this fall and want as sharp a blade as I can get.
Well good luck on the elk hunt Steve.I hope you take lots of pictures and share them.