Exactly how delicate are wooden arrows? I am making my first dozen and have broken two while bare shaft tuning. One broke completely in two as it hit the target (hit the target at an angle from being too weak). The other glanced off the top of the target (mistake on my part) and knocked out a chunk off of the side of the shaft. Bummer. I'm using a surewood shafts.
The process has been fun, but I'm a little concerned they won't hold up to normal wear and tear...which could get expensive fast!
Thanks,
mh
I've shot cedars for years, and never had the kind of problems you are describing. What are your bow specs and what are the arrow specs? Something is definitely amiss.
Hmm...Thanks centaur.
Two bows:
The first one that ended up being too strong for the shafts spine weight is a 60# @ 28 (I pull 27.5") Bob Lee take down recurve. This is the bow that snapped the shaft on impact.
The second is a made by me (and friends) reflex/deflex long bow. 53# @ 28. This is the bow that knocked a chunk off the side of the shaft when I nicked the side of the target.
Arrow: Surewood shaft, which is Douglas Fir, spined @ 75/80, 125 grain field point. No feathers at this point because I'm bareshaft tuning.
I have three fletched shafts that fly pretty good out of the long bow. not perfect, but good. So, I'm trying to dial them in.
thanks,
mh
When I hit the target they last a long time. Target frames, rocks... not so long.
Guy
Who did you get the arrows from, are you sure the are Surewoods? When you tapered the point end did you use a pencil sharpener style tool,and was the tapered end chewed up? Are they sealed?
I started making 5/16 woodies a little less than a month ago. Until this morning I basically had the same question. I put a judo on one of them and went stumping but I was selective and looked for soft targets like leaves.
This morning I took a shot with the judo tipped arrow. I was trying to shoot through a gap, missed and drilled a live oak tree at about 15 yards.
I fully exspected the arrow to be history as I walked over to it. To my suprise it was intact but was shaped like a rainbow. I mean it had a big curve in it.
With nothing to loose I hand straightened it back to good as new, checked for cracks and continued on to the next target.
I was very happy and thought if that had been one of my aluminums it would have been destroyed. Not bad for a .92 cent arrow.
Now I'm not saying this is normal because this is the only example I have had. Maybe it was blind luck but then again maybe it was the birch shaft.
I can say without a doubt a chain link fence post will break my arrow though.
Shafting can break when bareshafting if it lands at a flat enough angle in the bale; but it has got to be off spine considerably(25#) for that to happen.
Doug Fir is considerably tougher than Cedar.
Interested to hear the answers to questions posed by lpcjohn2 above.
QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
Who did you get the arrows from, are you sure the are Surewoods? When you tapered the point end did you use a pencil sharpener style tool,and was the tapered end chewed up? Are they sealed?
I'm pretty sure the shafts are Surewoods. I got them from Braveheart Archery...good folks there.
As for tapering, I used a disc sander and the tapering guide block. The ends weren't chewed up at all. Real smooth. I spin the shafts to insure the nocks and points are spinning true.
The shafts are in fact sealed. 3 coats of Polyurethane.
It sounds like I have had some bad luck here.
mh
I have shot many different types of wood and I just finished 2 dozen Surewoods and I have found them to be extremely hard to break and damage. I would wonder what went wrong if you broke one in half and to have a chuck knocked out by hitting the top of the target tells me that the arrow was not flying straight at all(possible near sideways). That could be due to the spine being off as Bjorn mentioned( 75-80# shaft for a 53#bow = to stiff). How far away from the target are you bare shaft shooting? are they full length?
I agree...they are way too stiff. They were actually purchased for the Curve, but ended up being to weak. So, instead of having a dozen shafts go to waste, I decided to see if I could get them to fly straight out of my less powerful long bow.
I did start shooting them out of the long bow full length at first...they flew weak. So, I cut them down a half inch, took another shot and that is when I nicked the side of the target and took a chunk out. Not sure how straight or crooked it flew on that last shot.
distance: 12 or so yards.
It seems like my broken shafts are not the norm. True? If so, then that does my heart good.
mh
True they shouldn't break like that. Why are they to weak for the 60#curve?what weight head are you using? 125 grn head and the shafts at 29-30" should fly pretty well being in the 75-80# range. If you dont want the shafts let me know.I may be interested in them.
Trees, rocks, target frames, green stumps, sheds and trashcans have all cost me POC arrows over the years. Wood breaks, aluminum bends; all part of the game.
Look, I'll offer a contrary opinion here.
I don't believe in bare-shaft tuning wooden arrows, because I just can't do it. I might believe if I saw somebody else do it, but it still might not convince me that I can do it. Mind you, I got pretty darn good at bare-shaft tuning carbons. But with woods, it seems that no matter what I do, they hit sideways and snap. I can paper tune them, or tune them by grouping broadheads and field points, but I just cannot bare-shaft tune them, and get discouraged as I break too many arrows.
With feathers on a Douglas fir, I hardly ever break one unless it hits a rock, and even then some survive.
Barrel Tapered Ash!!!
I agree with Ipcjon2, they should fly great out of your 60# recurve.
Try them with feathers on. I never bareshaft tune. Fletch them, tune your bow by the flight. Then maybe paper tune.
POC and Douglas Fir have been great shafts for me.
I have been shooting the same set of judos on tapered cedars for four years and have not broke one yet, after thousands of shots. Sounds like a bad set of shafts to me.
I actually don't know why they are weak out of my recurve. It actually surprised me. I entered all my info into stu millers calculator and that spine shaft is what it told me to get. I ended up cutting them down to the bare minimum length in order to try and stiffen them up a bit, but they still flew weak. I think I'll give them another shot out of my long bow, but if that doesn't work, I'll let you know. I guess they can always make them into flu flu's.
Thank you for all your help,
mh
They might be abit too dry as well. I made some out of really old fir a few years and some snapped when they hit the target. Knew someone with a moisture tester and they had very low moisture content. Left them outside (unfinished shafts) for a week or so and they were fine.
My latest batch are bamboo and so far they are very durable.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/Tuffcity/0abe7ae4.jpg)
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Look, I'll offer a contrary opinion here.
I don't believe in bare-shaft tuning wooden arrows, because I just can't do it. I might believe if I saw somebody else do it, but it still might not convince me that I can do it. Mind you, I got pretty darn good at bare-shaft tuning carbons. But with woods, it seems that no matter what I do, they hit sideways and snap. I can paper tune them, or tune them by grouping broadheads and field points, but I just cannot bare-shaft tune them, and get discouraged as I break too many arrows.
With feathers on a Douglas fir, I hardly ever break one unless it hits a rock, and even then some survive.
Thanks Ben! That could be my problem. I did try to tune with fletched shafts, but was getting a lot of fish tailing. I can try again though.
mh
I would tend to agree with Ben. I also think your arrows are too stiff. I think out of your recurve the arrows should fly good with about 175 gr. points. Even need more weight out of the long bow. I also shoot that weight but my draw is longer. I would also mess around with the nock set. Gary
I think they are too stiff for both bows. With the longbow showing weak, I think the arrow is deflecting off the riser and giving you a false reading. I would try a 29" arrow, 65-70 out of the recurve with 125 point, and a 29", 60-65 with 125 point out of the longbow. These would be with a D97 string. If you use dacron B50, subtract 5 lbs spine. Surewood are good shafts and Bravehart is a good company, its not the shafts imo. I don't like to bareshaft wood unless I am close to the right spine for the very reason you have experienced, they will snap when they hit sideways. Fletch up and paper tune, I think you will be satisfied.
I tried bare shafting firs 25 years ago with the same result. Two broke at five yards, were hitting the target flat as I recall. Have been using woodies ever since and not one has broken that had feathers on it and hit the target. I even hit a car once, don't ask arrow hit the engine alaskan forge wood didn't break.
I also don't believe in bareshafting wood. It doesn't work like with carbons.
Wood arrows usually hold up pretty good for most people.
Personally, I love wood arrows for the joy of making them, and I will agree that quality wood arrows will fly and hit every bit as good as any arrow shaft out there. For me, durability has ALWAYS been a problem.
I have used Ash, Cedar, Sitka spruce, and Hex-pine.
I never tried bareshafting wood shafts, but I can tell you it wouldn`t work for me.
Any type of glancing blow should cause you to be very suspicious of the integrity of a wood shaft.
JMHO.
Wood arrows are loved by some...myself included.
I use them and accept them for what they are...and for me I would honestly say I can`t call them "durable".
I never bareshaft tune any of my arrows, just can't do it. I don't paper tune either. I just fletch the arrows up and tune by cutting the shaft down a 1/4" at a time until they fly great and it's that easy. I have been doing it that way for 29 years and it works. Good luck and shoot strait.
I have had the exact same problem trying to tune woodies. But my dynamic spin was way off. If they are fairly close, it works.
I am a huge believer in bareshaft tuning, when I can make an arrow walk across a target by changing dynamic spine, I believe it is in my best interest to get the arrow to shoot where I am pointing it. Not 12 inches left or 8 inches right.
When I first started making woodies (1994), took the advice of others. Just add 10# to your draw weight and there is your spine. Have at it, shoot like crazy, have fun, it's not that important anyway. They didn't always fly perfect, but OK. Screwed around with all the variables trying to get them to shoot perfectly, except changin the dynamic spine.
Then I got lucky, I accidently made up a bunch of wood arrows that were tuned perfectly to my bow.
My shooting, confidence, and hunting success improved tremendously. The light bulb came on.
So I bareshaft woodies, but you need to be close in your calculations first. The thing that seems to give the most trouble is the amount of centershot on any given bow.
Now whenever someone wants to try traditional, I tell them the most important thing is getting matched sets of arrows tuned perfectly to their bow. Traditional is enough of a learning curve, why put yourself behind the 8 ball with bad arrows.
I don't believe in bare shaft tuning. Put some feathers on the shaft, and shoot them. You don't hunt with a bare shaft, you hunt with a feathered one. I may not be the norm (been told that all my life) but my arrows fly well. I can shoot anywhere from 30# shafts, up to 70# shafts out of my mid 50# longbow and they all fly great. I also shoot three 5 3/8" banana feathers, which I believe allows my arrows to recover quickly. Just my .02
FWIW,
I bought some just-long-enough Ramin shafts off a fellow TGer from the classifieds and took them stumping today while out looking for sheds. I drew back on a rotten pine and overshot it by a few inches and nicked a log behind it. The field point lanced off the log and then the arrow bounced off several more limbs and tree trunks before falling to the top of the pine needle/leaf mixture. I walked over to it expecting to see the point gone and the shaft in splinters. To my surprise the Ramin shaft held its own against the native pine stand. Not even the fletching was ruffled.
I shot the same arrow several more time during the brief walk. And several more times it ping-ponged off trees and limbs. I even had to dig it out of a stump with a rubber mallet and wood chisel on one shot.
It's still in the quiver tonight with the same point and hardly even the finish is smudged.
It took numerous hard richochets off different things. I'm becoming a fan of Ramin. It straightens easily with an ace roller.
Just throwing it out there.
Bareshaft arrows will fly more or less sideways unless perfectly spined and released and wood shafts can snap if they hit the target crooked. I won't bareshaft with wood arrows and paper tune instead. I am yet to break an arrow paper tuning and find the process faster, easier and much easier to read than bareshafting, but just as effective and accurate.