Trad Gang

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
I'll shoot the bow I shoot, because it's the easiest, most fogiving bow I've ever shot. To me that's what it's all about as a hunter.

  :readit:  well said  Curt

Some of this "movement" may just be a counter reaction to all the ILF, carbon arrows, tinker-toy broadheads, etc., etc.  That's a good enough reason in MY eyes!

i think what goes around, comes around.  next month it'll be 60's style bear recurves.  it's all good.  if yer a bowhunter first and foremost, yer stick bow is the tool that'll bring home the bacon, so choose what'll work best for you.  tired of that whizbang recurve?  feels a bit too easy?  if the aesthetics are good for ya, drop back a notch or two and pick up a hill-style longbow.

If I could the same thing with a Redwing what i can do with my Robertsons and my Schulz longbow I would probably use them all the time.  I do stupid stuff when i try to shoot shorter recurves that I cannot control, but I do have this 52" Ben Pearson that I am determined to shoot a turkey with.  It is kind of cool to be able to sit on a pad against a tree and not have to worry about the bottom limb, but that grip is a challenge to me.

Mmmm
I was waiting for this thread to appear.

I own, or have owned most styles and makes of bows but for hunting return to Hill style bows.

Yep,,,they do have more thump at the shot

Yep,,,my choice to use Hill style bows does , to some degree , involve the simple asthetics od the bow

Why would I play play vintage style guitars when I could play the newest carbon 7 string wonder axe ?

Why...Coz that is how I roll ...

I am at my happiest with a back quiver full of woodies and a Long Hill style bow out in the woods.
They just float my boat so to speak...I group better with them and certinly have better hunting success with them, most likely because I have been shooting them for a while .

I also figure that if Rik Hinton hunts with them , they must do something ok ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
...

I also figure that if Rik Hinton hunts with them , they must do something ok ...

ooo, you name dropper, you!  :D

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:

I'll shoot the bow I shoot, because it's the easiest, most fogiving bow I've ever shot. To me that's what it's all about as a hunter.

I want to know when the time comes to release an arrow at a critter, I have the best weapon for the job..for me...

Nothing wrong with that. And no surprise coming from someone who has shot only a few longbows a few times, has never owned one, and has shot recurves for many years. :-)

It took "baby steps" for me... first the r/d hybrids, and now the very mild r/d bows. Haven't got there yet with the straight limbed bows, but I'm learning. Nonetheless, I'm just as confident hunting with a longbow today as I was hunting with recurves for over 20 years previously.

My main reason for switching was the super quiet of a d-shape when strung bow... deer have no idea what hit them or where it came from. :-)

I will always have a shorty recurve for turkey hunting because I hunt them using a pop-up blind.

Enjoy your bowhunting, that is the most important part.

- Dave

First...because of the name HILL

Second...the workmanship is flawless and Craig has a fairly quick turn around time

Third...In the hands of the right shooter, they are deadly and quiet.

Unfortunately for me, not in my hands. I just can't get used to the Broomstick grip or have to think about my hand placement. However, my 3 buddies who shoot Hill longbows...are deadly with them.

Although there are a few longbows out there I can shoot well because of the grip, I still feel more comfortable shooting my recurves.

QuoteOriginally posted by BWD:
If folks who have never shot one are running out and ordering them, I predict there will be many for sale or trade within the next several months.

Me. I'm just waiting for this to happen...already have my finger on their "Buy It Now" button...

  :bigsmyl:  

But I honestly don't think that's gonna happen.

I'm 'ornery and can't resist!   :D

(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0288.jpg)

Wow! I went to sleep for the night, and wake-up to find that you fellows have sure been busy!

They are bomb proof and if held right they won't loosen up too many teeth   :bigsmyl:

QuoteOriginally posted by Ric O'Shay:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by BWD:
If folks who have never shot one are running out and ordering them, I predict there will be many for sale or trade within the next several months.

Me. I'm just waiting for this to happen...already have my finger on their "Buy It Now" button...

   :bigsmyl:    

But I honestly don't think that's gonna happen. [/b]

Not me Danny, I'll just look and drool...lol

I have a good fix! (at the moment)

God bless,Mudd

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:

I guess because of the grip, "lightness in hand", length, and, to be truthfull...my willingness to work harder at being a good shot...I guess I'll never be a "Hill bow" shooter.

I'll shoot the bow I shoot, because it's the easiest, most fogiving bow I've ever shot. To me that's what it's all about as a hunter.

Guess that's why I've been shooting the same bows for so many years...I'm more into shooting well, than having to work harder at shooting well, or the romance.

By that I mean, I guess I'm not willing to handicap myself, as some of you have put it...

I want to know when the time comes to release an arrow at a critter, I have the best weapon for the job..for me...

I don't shoot much 3d, but when I do I shoot the same bow I shoot when I'm hunting...it's what I'm the best with...

G'day Curt,

I can't and don't disagree with your thinking, because it is a very personal thing; I, too, know that I will generally shoot better, easier, with one of my flash recurves. But I know of two fellows who would say exactly the same things you said, but about Howard Hill longbows: Ben Maher and Rik Hinton. It goes to show that not only are we all different, but for some, the easiest, most-accurate bow to shoot is a Hill. Now, I wish I had exceptional Hill talent like those two, but alas, I have only moderately-good Hill talent.

Cheers,

Ben

QuoteOriginally posted by Pinelander:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:

I'll shoot the bow I shoot, because it's the easiest, most fogiving bow I've ever shot. To me that's what it's all about as a hunter.

I want to know when the time comes to release an arrow at a critter, I have the best weapon for the job..for me...

Nothing wrong with that. And no surprise coming from someone who has shot only a few longbows a few times, has never owned one, and has shot recurves for many years. :-)

Enjoy your bowhunting, that is the most important part.

- Dave [/b]

Oh I've owned two longbows, and killed a bunch of deer and a bear with them.

These were slight R/D longbows made by a local bowyer around here. Good bows, but not the performance of the the Original Silvertip I put up to shoot these two.

After a couple years of shooting these, I hoped there was something "better" out there.

Winter of '96 I went to Joe Skipp's shop and was enlightened about the Kempf Kwyk Styk    :pray:  

So yes I have owned and killed things with longbows....but not "Hill style"

Then there is the absolute magic in the words of Don Thomas written in "Longbows in the Far North" which absolutely struck a chord with me as a new bowhunter...

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:

I guess because of the grip, "lightness in hand", length, and, to be truthfull...my willingness to work harder at being a good shot...I guess I'll never be a "Hill bow" shooter.

I'll shoot the bow I shoot, because it's the easiest, most fogiving bow I've ever shot. To me that's what it's all about as a hunter.

Guess that's why I've been shooting the same bows for so many years...I'm more into shooting well, than having to work harder at shooting well, or the romance.

By that I mean, I guess I'm not willing to handicap myself, as some of you have put it...

I want to know when the time comes to release an arrow at a critter, I have the best weapon for the job..for me...

I don't shoot much 3d, but when I do I shoot the same bow I shoot when I'm hunting...it's what I'm the best with...

G'day Curt,

I can't and don't disagree with your thinking, because it is a very personal thing; I, too, know that I will generally shoot better, easier, with one of my flash recurves. But I know of two fellows who would say exactly the same things you said, but about Howard Hill longbows: Ben Maher and Rik Hinton. It goes to show that not only are we all different, but for some, the easiest, most-accurate bow to shoot is a Hill. Now, I wish I had exceptional Hill talent like those two, but alas, I have only moderately-good Hill talent.

Cheers,

Ben [/b]

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more bud!
I've shot with some fine, fine hill style bow shooters. Todd and Bryan Hathaway are two that come to mind...Deadly!

With the array of critters that you've layed down with them, I'd say you're more than comfortable with them as well    :notworthy:    :clapper:

I read that somebody hinted at a design flaw in Hills...

If an old World War One warbird is flawed in design, so is the Hill. But I maintain that both are things of beauty and fun that are also deadly.

Also, There's no doubt in my mind that if I set my mind to it, they wouldn't slow down my "killin'" one bit...

But it would take a total transformation in how I shoot a bow because of how I grip a bow.  
Guess I'm not willing to do that though. And I don't want to have 2 different "styles" of shooting, because for me, I don't feel I can be the best I can be shooting 2 diff. ways(grips, locked/un-locked elbow,etc...)

I'm of the "fear the man with one bow" metality...

Now I know that in my quest for a longbow, I'll be looking for one with a more 'curve style grip.

Never thought this would be 8 pgs. in less than 12 hrs...good stuff    :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
Never thought this would be 8 pgs. in less than 12 hrs...good stuff     :thumbsup:  

Regardless of how they shoot, they sure do draw a crowd!!   :archer:

Design flaw in the straight end longbow?

I wonder in anyone ever conducted a focus group  with the French Army survivors after The Battle of Agincourt to discuss this issue?

Curt, I sent ya a PM.   :thumbsup:

Yes, it's "the grip" for me too. I have a few longbows that look gawdawful where I've wrapped the grip to fit me and what I want. Can't imagine how they would look if they were Hill style handles. :-)

I kinda agree with what another member said about the gripping of a Hill style bow. I think folks put too much thought into it, instead of just shooting the thang!
A few years back I bought a Chekmate recurve and after inquiring about them, everyone replied they were a great bow but the grip was too big on them.

It was bigger! I was used to the smallish grip on my Holmes longbow, But after a couple weeks the Chekmate felt just right!

About two years ago I bought a Jerry Hill longbow, and I hated the grip... it just didn't feel like the Chekmate grip that was originally too big.

The other day I traded for an old Kolometz longbow with a Hill style grip. Felt plumb weird compared to the Longriver longbow....
Feels just right now after a good day of shooting.
I also felt a little buzz in my left hand at the shot......... it went away! Where did it go?

I just kept shooting and it went away!

Seriously....

I guess I can't speak for everybody, but I have asked a lot of folks in the past: How long did you have that Hill style bow? Answer: Oh I shot that thing about 5 minutes and my hand was numb and I got rid of it!!

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
I'm of the "fear the man with one bow" metality...

You raise an interesting thought. In Tolstoy's "War and Peace" he states that no two people view truth in the same way. What I'm getting at is that when I first started bowhunting (not that long ago compared to many here), I heard the saying of "Fear the man with one bow", and it made perfect sense to me. And then later on, sometime after joining Trad Gang, I read some of Terry's wisdom, which I can't quote word-for-word, which went something along the lines of getting a few basic form or technique principles down-pat, and no bow should be out of the question. So, to my way of thinking, these are two fairly opposite opinions, and yet for different people, one will be absolutely correct, and the other will be absolutely wrong. And there may be some spectrum in between the two.

If we can combine fun with responsibility to the game we pursue, then it's all good, no matter what personal preferences are.

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
Also, There's no doubt in my mind that if I set my mind to it, they wouldn't slow down my "killin'" one bit...

But it would take a total transformation in how I shoot a bow because of how I grip a bow.  
Guess I'm not willing to do that though. And I don't want to have 2 different "styles" of shooting, because for me, I don't feel I can be the best I can be shooting 2 diff. ways(grips, locked/un-locked elbow,etc...)

I'm of the "fear the man with one bow" metality...

Now I know that in my quest for a longbow, I'll be looking for one with a more 'curve style grip.

curt, this whole thing is just an itch you been wanting to scratch, no more or less.  ya know you hafta just to get it outta yer system and back on the kwyk styk track.  :D

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
I'm of the "fear the man with one bow" metality...

You raise an interesting thought. In Tolstoy's "War and Peace" he states that no two people view truth in the same way. What I'm getting at is that when I first started bowhunting (not that long ago compared to many here), I heard the saying of "Fear the man with one bow", and it made perfect sense to me. And then later on, sometime after joining Trad Gang, I read some of Terry's wisdom, which I can't quote word-for-word, which went something along the lines of getting a few basic form or technique principles down-pat, and no bow should be out of the question. So, to my way of thinking, these are two fairly opposite opinions, and yet for different people, one will be absolutely correct, and the other will be absolutely wrong. And there may be some spectrum in between the two.

If we can combine fun with responsibility to the game we pursue, then it's all good, no matter what personal preferences are. [/b]

well said, ben, well said sir!

Curt a part of the beauty of traditional bows are that they offer an array of different designs to appease the tastes of the shooters.

I respect anyone who tries to match wits with their chosen game with their chosen bow. (Yep even wheelers)

I will say again, for me it's more about how these bows make me feel about myself. I don't have any problems shooting a variety of bow designs. I made a conscience choice to move away from the recurves and r/d bows just because they didn't allow me that feeling.

It's a very personal thing.

I appreciate to great discussion that has transpired here.

You folks are awesome!!! Even more awesome than "Hill" bows....lol

God bless,Mudd

All i know is i grew up shooting recurves, and about ten years ago had the chance to shoot a straight grip hill-style longbow.

There are a few really happy firsts in my life and like my first kiss, and my first Harley, my first shot with a longbow was life-changing...Need i say more?

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
   

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
I'm of the "fear the man with one bow" metality...

You raise an interesting thought. In Tolstoy's "War and Peace" he states that no two people view truth in the same way. What I'm getting at is that when I first started bowhunting (not that long ago compared to many here), I heard the saying of "Fear the man with one bow", and it made perfect sense to me. And then later on, sometime after joining Trad Gang, I read some of Terry's wisdom, which I can't quote word-for-word, which went something along the lines of getting a few basic form or technique principles down-pat, and no bow should be out of the question. So, to my way of thinking, these are two fairly opposite opinions, and yet for different people, one will be absolutely correct, and the other will be absolutely wrong. And there may be some spectrum in between the two.

If we can combine fun with responsibility to the game we pursue, then it's all good, no matter what personal preferences are. [/b]

Funny you mention Terry bud...

He and I have talked about this...after the Solana hunt 2 yrs ago. We went back to the hotelin Austin(we were flying out the next day) and discussed this in length.

I couldn't convince him, and he couldn't me....but we both understood and respected each others opinion. But each worked...
•  (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/MeandTSolana.jpg)


I guess I'm just always afraid if I start shooting a bunch of bows, I won't be as good as I can with any one of them    :dunno:

QuoteI guess I'm just always afraid if I start shooting a bunch of bows, I won't be as good as I can with any one of them [dunno]

Curt, that was the problem I was having over the last few years. So, I settled on my Howard Hills and have 4 of them. I kept one Maddog recurve to have a short bow around. I want to be proficient with one style bow and I shoot the Hills pretty good and they work for me.

Guess I just don't have any desire to change my shooting to fit a bow and have to shoot 55 to 60 lbs to get 50lb proformance.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
I'm of the "fear the man with one bow" metality...

You raise an interesting thought. In Tolstoy's "War and Peace" he states that no two people view truth in the same way. What I'm getting at is that when I first started bowhunting (not that long ago compared to many here), I heard the saying of "Fear the man with one bow", and it made perfect sense to me. And then later on, sometime after joining Trad Gang, I read some of Terry's wisdom, which I can't quote word-for-word, which went something along the lines of getting a few basic form or technique principles down-pat, and no bow should be out of the question. So, to my way of thinking, these are two fairly opposite opinions, and yet for different people, one will be absolutely correct, and the other will be absolutely wrong. And there may be some spectrum in between the two.

If we can combine fun with responsibility to the game we pursue, then it's all good, no matter what personal preferences are. [/b]

I dont think that I could say it any better than that. WEll done Ben

I feel, that like with many things in life it has to feel right for you to like it. I started with longbows and have tried some recurves(they do shoot smooth) and I like longbows better.For me it feels like I am holding weight with my Tembo compared to a curve.But I shoot it extremal well and it's comfortable to me.

 Its like driving an old Corvette,you feel the horsepower and it drives and handles a little rougher than a Porsche and doesn't go as fast as one.But it is a classic that get the job done and has great looks.

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
I'm not knocking these bows at all guys, I'm sincerly wondering as I'd like to own a one LB and I want the "right one"...

From a K zoo thread...

 

QuoteOriginally posted by xtrema312:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Todd Greenwald:
I just got home and will be heading back in the morning. . . All I can say is WOW!!!!

Yep me to.  4:30 - 9. Will be back for more tomorrow.  Have a sore bow elbow from trying too many D shape LB's.  I should know better. [/b]

This is exactly the kind of comment I'm used to hearing.... [/b]

I should have noted in that post that I have a pre-existing bad elbow condition due to heavy wheel bows.  There are hybrid LB's it doesn't like.  I also don't shoot much more than 9-10 gpp arrows.
I can happily report that Brian's Tall Tine LB is not bad at all on the elbow, shoots really well, and quick for a D bow.  The 45# 64" bow really surprised me the first time I shot it with its speed.  I can say that it was a good think the two 64" bows were 5 or so pounds under and over my preferred draw weight or my bow fun would no longer be intact.

I realized that I was spending way too much time discussing why I like Hill Style bows.

I stopped typing.  I grabbed my HH 85# Half Breed, HH 55# Dual Shelf Robin Hood, 83# Mild RD Pronghorn, and my D Shaped 74# BamaBow.

I spent the next two hours shooting all four bows and had a great time. I must have shot well over 200 arrows.

I spent most of my time going from the 85# HH to the 55# Hill. The Pronghorn is faster and amazingly I was more accurate with my BamaBow (that bow and I get along real well).

But, at the end of the day, the Hill's were still my favorites.

BTW, after shooting at least 60 arrows thru my 85# HH Half Breed, I was amazed at how easy it was to draw the 55# HH Robin Hood.

Less typing, more shooting!

Matt

Hill bows are just plain fun. No disadvantage to me and quiet as a mouse.

 They are more forgiving for me prolly cause of the length and tend to shoot a heavy arrow purty good.I like`m but they ain`t for everybody.You gotta love`m and I do. Hope I got some money when them Hills come up for sale. I`m wanting a Tembo bad..RC

We as humans get bored ... First, recurves, than Hybrids {pretty much the same} than still lookin for the ultimate, which "IS" the HH style of L/B's, Yes, lacking in some ways, but Very inspiring in others, It's True Traditional Archery, Bar None ... Harder ? Yes, But isn't that why we do what we do ... It is for me, it's not always about the kill, pictures & glamour ... But the Love of the "True Longbow" ... Heck, who knows whats next for me, Selfbow ?? Oh Yeah !!!

Theres some really good comments and perspectives here,Kudus to all of you .we all have our opinions based on only our own knowledges and experiences.When I started shooting bows about 50 years ago I couldn't afford the luxurys of ownig more than one bow.Since then I honestly think I've owned almost everything.I do believe thru years of shooting i've been blessed to be able to shoot almost any style of bow .I own about 25 bows of all types and shoot them all regularily.When I get a new bow within a few arrows I find it very comfortable.I atribute this to the years I've shot.The hardest bow to master was my 68" Chekmate longbow and I remember shooting 8 arrows at the same gopher,seams I couldn't hit a barn from the inside with that thing.Then one day it just clicked and was like an old friend.Now I just adapt my shooting style to what I'm shooting and it really works for me.

Steve Clandinin quote:"Now I just adapt my shooting style to what I'm shooting and it really works for me.".

Hey Steve you and I are in the same boat on this one.

I can move from longbow to recurve, center shot to off the knuckle, 48" sinew backed Pony bow 48@26 to 77" n-t-n Cow horn tipped ELB 80plus lbs @28. The 1st arrow is going to go where it goes, the second arrow generally goes where where I want it.
Sometimes if I say out loud to my self, what I'm shooting,what is different and what to expect, even the 1st arrow might be close to where I want it.
I read somewhere that shooting traditional bows is about 90% mental and the other 10% is mental too...lol

Mastering a bow, any bow isn't all that difficult if you think your way through each shot.

However that only can work for me on the range or stump shooting.

Once I'm in the woods hunting, my shooting it has to have become "second nature" because my thoughts won't be about the bow any longer and I have plenty to think about and enjoy my bow in a whole different way during the hunt.

God bless,Mudd

God bless,Mudd

I shot my Shawnee recurve for years and thought I'd never get rid of it. I too was looking for a longbow that I could shoot like my recurve. I bought a Morrison Dakota and shot it just as good(if not better). So my desire went a touch further. I called Jason at HH and wanted to test drive a Hill. I like most on here shot the old Hills and found them to be a little "shockey" for lack of a better term. But Jason told me they do something now(don't even ask me the process) but it takes some of that out of the bow. So he sent me a bow out to test. I was truly impressed. The bow to me was not slow at all. Matter of fact I thought it spit my arrows with authority. After shooting this bow I was surprised at how it just shot where I was looking for the most part.(a little tip weight change would have helped out a touch)It was very stable & smooth. My bud also got in a wes a day after I sent this one back and I could not put it down. So my mind was made up to order one.

The moral of the story is I'm not running out and selling my Dakota any time soon. But these Hills are easier to shoot than people think.IMO So I want to tell others not to make their minds up on others opinions. Try one and make your own.

Curt,you have a PM.

In today's high tech, complicated world, I think people really want to return to things less complicated; even if only for the recreational time in their lives.  Even the "Traditional" bow is seeing more and more adjustable ILF "imported" equipment come on the market.  New interest in the straight limbed, made in the USA simplicity of the Hill style bow is a vote to return to a more utilitarian and simple way of life in my view.

Mike,you are so right,over the years I got rid of alot of bows because I didn't give them an honest chance,No More.
Quoted by Mudd," Once I'm in the woods hunting,my shooting it has to become"Second Nature" because my thoughts won't be about the bow any longer and I have plenty to think about and enjoy my bow in a whole differant way during the hunt"
This has to be one of the truest statements I've ever read.People read this,then read it again.Totally sums up why we do what we do.
For someone just starting alot don't realize the hours of practice it takes to be efficient.The main thing,as I discussed one time with G.Fred was the repetative practice of proper form so all becomes habit and second nature while shooting,especially in hunting situations.I found the simpler a bow looks,the harder it was to shoot,hence the HH longbow.Can you imagine over the years how many arrows Howard Hill shot? Probably Eleventy-Nine Zillion!

Swamp,What you say sums it all up,Kudus my friend.I honestly think in our Hi-Tec world many want to go back to more tranquil times.

One more reason I shoot a Hill bow while slipping for pork in warm weather...It has reach advantage over a short r/d for flipping cottonmouths out of the way....RC

QuoteOnce I'm in the woods hunting, my shooting it has to have become "second nature" because my thoughts won't be about the bow any longer and I have plenty to think about and enjoy my bow in a whole different way during the hunt.

Right on the money Mudd !!

I never shot a Hill bow till '08. Spent a couple hours with Steve Turay at K'zoo going over grips and basic "mechanics" of the the bow. He got me shooting pretty wel in a short time, he managed to sell me a Shelton in the process. Been lovin' it ever since!!

Yep, you shoot them different than a recurve..or..do you shoot a recurve different than a longbow.. I dunno..dont care either.

I guess what matters at the end of the day is..shoot what you enjoy and enjoy what you shoot.

Eric

QuoteOne more reason I shoot a Hill bow while slipping for pork in warm weather...It has reach advantage over a short r/d for flipping cottonmouths out of the way....RC

LOL ..RC..If I ever get down there I'll be bringin my 84" bow!!

Eric

QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
One more reason I shoot a Hill bow while slipping for pork in warm weather...It has reach advantage over a short r/d for flipping cottonmouths out of the way....RC

You always have to bring up the snakes,dont you. I think you do this just to torment me.  :bigsmyl:

QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
One more reason I shoot a Hill bow while slipping for pork in warm weather...It has reach advantage over a short r/d for flipping cottonmouths out of the way....RC

Any y'all wonder why we stay up north here and put up with all the ice and snow! ;-)

Great whistling fire arrows!   I go out to a shoot for a day, come back tired and go to bed and in a day and a night you guys fill ten pages with my favorite subject!     :campfire:    

Good discussion, and, as has been said so many times, there really isn't a definitive answer, any more than "Why blonds or brunettes?"   Folks differ in what appeals to them and how they react to given experiences.   Some try something, don't have a good reaction and move on, others decide to stick till they master it just out of stubbornness.  That' was me... the bow appealed and I was determined.  It took me awhile to learn to shoot the Hill as well as i could a recurve, and I'm not sure I'm there yet... I'd have to go shoot a recurve!     :)  

As to why now, I think over the past few years, Hill style bows have acquired a few evangelical believers who have been beating the drum. (Yep,, guilty here), me, Mudd, Raging Waters and others.   The Hill Longbowmen list is about three years old now and they've collected a lot of info for folks.   So, there's been a lot of smoke... hopefully, even some fire.

As to hand shock, I've given up.  Some folks experience it to greater degrees than others.  Personally, it's part of my belief that there is no such thing as an inanimate object, and the bows know when you don't trust them or like them. I just know that they can be built for smoothness.  They have narrow, heavy cores and if they're built for max draw weight and speed, a lot of force is going to have to be absorbed by relatively little mass.  

I had a guy here for coaching Thursday.  He'd been shooting both recurves and longbows.  He drew half a dozen of mine and his eyes got so wide the yard lit up!  He was having what I call a "chainsaw moment"... (What's that noise?!)

Hill style will always be a small niche but I hope and suspect, always a passionate one.  Somewhere in the backs of our minds, when we think traditional, we're looking for a return to simplicity, and while Howard did cross the line (in my opinion) when he added the shelf, which I regard as high tech, what bow is simpler?

I have always liked the simple look of a hill style, but have not found one I like to shoot (haven't looked super hard since every one I try has more vibration than I like).  Bought a Horne from Robtattoo to try a cross from my recurve towards a longbow.  Shoot that better than my recurve.  Maybe the next step will be a hill style, but for now I am happy with the in-between I am shooting.  But this has been a great discussion, and the variety of opinions is what makes this such a super place to learn.  Plus my wife and compound buddies just don't like to talk trad stuff.

this thread is rediculous. Bows are like fishing lures now, they catch the eye of the buyer. They all do the same thing, and I have shot curves that would rattle your teeth too. There are a bunch of types and designs etc, and grips galore. If Hill bows were any worse than any other for whatever reason, they wouldn't be around. For some they shoot great, for others not...so just shoot what you like and really, who cares if you don't like them...but until you can beat all those who shoot them, I am not sure you have a point. Name another archer not trained by Hill that could compare and shoots recurves, I can't.

QuoteOriginally posted by Overspined:
Name another archer not trained by Hill that could compare and shoots recurves, I can't.

Hmmm? Interesting point.

Matt

QuoteOriginally posted by WESTBROOK:
 

QuoteOne more reason I shoot a Hill bow while slipping for pork in warm weather...It has reach advantage over a short r/d for flipping cottonmouths out of the way....RC

LOL ..RC..If I ever get down there I'll be bringin my 84" bow!!  Eric [/b]

I dunno... I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot... bow!

I think the main problem is guys don't shoot them right they try to get behind them and shoot them off the web of there hand like a recurve and that sends a shock straight up there arm.cant it and  shoot off the side of the bow. this is a lot easier to demonstrate then to explain.

i guess i'm an anomaly of sorts when i comes to shooting straight handled hill-style longbows.  or any longbow grip, for that matter.  it may be hard to see in the below images, but the weight of the bow carries on the inside of the thumb flesh, close to the forefinger/thumb web.  i took a few shots and left the bow hand in the same position and snapped the image.  although i hadda grip the bow a bit tight so it wouldn't slip when taking the photo, this is not a tight grip at all, it's fairly loose and the fingers just keep the bow from punching forward on release and dropping.  

my bow hand is skewed off at an angle - i never use or need an armguard.  

my grip ...
 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/grip_me.jpg)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/g2.jpg)

not my grip ...
 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/grip_you.jpg)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/g1.jpg)

I'll try and read more than the first page if I get time.......

I have a 78# Cheetah that I don't think is shocky at all.

I think the HH threads are cool......and good to see HH bows are alive and well.

Rob, good pics...I don't need to wear an armguard either as i use approx the same grip .

Pics of you and your Hill Cheetah Terry ?
C'mon .....

I hold the same as you Rob but I leave the ring and pinky finger loose and barely touching.

I have seen guys holding there Hills way out the thumb.  that doesn't make any sense to me at all.  Why put all that force against the strength of one relatively weak finger joint?  I heel my Hills and get all the way into my hand.  If someone is shooting a heavy Hill like did for most of my adult life, they would not have much of a thumb left.  I have a tight enough grip on mine so they do not move in my hand and I do not have any handshock issues.  I think it is more an element of stubbed off shooting technique versus dynamic fluid technique.  One either develops it or one goes back to curvy bows.

i like having the force with and not against me.  

deep handles promote torque, therefore i like them narrow and rounded.

gripping a bow handle like a handshake promotes too much hand-to-handle contact for me.  increased contact allows for variables as to where the compression between my hand and handle will occur.  doesn't take much for my wrist to rotate and shift the leverage from the heel of the hand to the web of the forefinger and thumb, and vice-versa - with that kinda grip.

i want, and use, as small a point of contact 'tween me and the bow.  small contact = one basic pressure point 'tween hand and bow.  getting that pressure point to line up best with wrist and arm further lessens unwanted movement.

so, though it looks like i'm shaking hands with the handle, all the hand pressure is on the left side of the top part of the meat of the thumb, closer to the web between the forefinger and thumb.  then i skew/angle the hand/wrist to the left for string clearance.

that's just what's worked best for me for too many decades.

When I pick up a bow I don't want to think about what part of my anatomy goes where or why my arrow ended up at the location it did; I just want to hit the spot I'm looking at. After many years of trying to sort through the choices, I've settled on string follow Hill style bows. These Hill threads are great and it's fun reading the opinions of all. For me, it's the pure simplicity of a bow that hunts good!

Next week, I will get my 100# HH Elephant bow back from Craig. He modified the grip. I will post some pictures then.

Matt

I hold my Hill bows exactly the same way I hold a recurve. The only difference is that I put the pressure on the web of my hand with recurves, and put the pressure on the bottom part of the heel of my hand with Hill bows.

I also use a fairly straight bow arm that is already extended and pointing right at what I want to hit before I ever draw the bow.

The arrows go right where they are pointed.

I must be missing something. . . but it's not the target!

I'm with you Rik!   Howard Hill longbows or Black Widow recurves, my hand stays the same as Ipcjon2 described above.

I have owned 2 Hill bows,was not really impressed just not my cup of tea.Guess that is why they still make different brands of about everything.Everbody likes something different,to each his own.

I had opinions about short hybrid bows, at least until I took a shot with a Shrew and got my wife her customized to her 26.5" Lost Creek NAT, it is hard to argue with the performance and accuracy from these bows. There is a reason there are so many to choose from, they work. I hold low pistol and locator grips much the same as Rob. My hand is thicker in the base muscles so I heal the straighter grips, for me getting a hold of it gives me the most torque free control of a longbow.

i have shot my best 3d scores w a 44 lb wesley special with a wedge grip nate steen put on it you get used to it that bump for want of a better description im not ready to shoot a prune off someones head but  howard hill has demonstated what is possible and all that shoot the d bow live that dream imho

I guess my friends are right - I must be a true Neanderthal. I just don't understand the problem with handshock that so many guys have experienced with Hill bows. Perhaps I am simply insensitive to it. However, I do use a very firm grip down on the heel of my hand, though, much firmer than when I shot recurves. Also, I recommend shooting the heavier shafts as some of the other guys have stated.

In terms of classic "traditional" looks, the Hill bow, to me,  is the ultimate representation. I like the lightness in my hand that my Hill bows provide, and I find them very smooth on the draw. Besides, what else goes better with the wooden arrows I like so much? In the end, I guess its as simple as this: "some like 'em, some don't."

Well, I love longbows, like everyone else I reckon.  I shoot ok, not great, but love to shoot just the same.  I have found my brain and heart want to shoot D-shaped bows, so I do.  I shoot very mild R/D bows best, but have always wanted a hill and so I am pursuing one.  It is not a smart move on my part, I do not need one for sure ... I want to own and shoot a Hill bow, so there it is.  I guess the heart wants what it wants.

Bob.

Bob B.-
I don't know if I've told you yet but I love my Tembo. Very little hand shock and just plain fun to shoot. I have to admit though it is a little to heavy RIGHT NOW. At my draw its pulling somewhere between 75 and 80 pounds, need to get it on a good scale. I was shooting heavy arrows but it was a pleasure to shoot.    :thumbsup:

You know, every bow ever made, regardless of the style, has a specific pressure point on the grip that allows the limb to be timed perfectly.  That is, the tips return to the brace height at exactly the same instant. Most Hill-style bows are tillered so that that pressure point is in the middle of the handle. If you use a grip that has a higher pressure point, you get handshock (the tips not returning to brace height at the same time). A heavy limbed bow will amplify the shock. It's just a matter of physics.

Certainly a hill-style bow can be tillered to accommodate a high wrist, recurve style grip, but if it isn't, it'll jar you. The heavier and thicker the limbs, the more shock you'll get.  Again, physics.

The way Rob D grips his Hills, is a little higher pressure point than I use on mine, but I think he uses a 3 under grip, which essentially moves the pivot point higher on the grip. And he might buy bows specifically tillered for the way he shoots. My Hills, if shot the way Rob does, give me a good buzz. It's not bad if I shoot the way he holds his bow hand and I use my regular split finger grip. But they work best if my hand pressure is a little lower on the handle. The key, like Rob said is to make sure you are consistent and try to have a small a contact point as possible.

If you put a bow on a tiller tree, it's very easy to see where that bow is designed to be held.

That being said, I choose to shoot a Hill because: it's quiet, it's light, it's simple, it's forgiving, it shoots heavy arrows almost as fast as it shoots lighter arrows, it's smooth, it's easy to string and unstring, and I like the way they look. I can shoot it from just about any position. Sitting, kneeling, laying on my stomach, crouched over, reverse cant. The length is an obstacle at times, but I can deal with that.

We're all Bored, I guess ?? Want to make things harder & more Traditional ... Least, I do ...

I should have also mentioned i ahve a bad elbow on my bow arm.  I struggle because I tend to shoot with a very high wrist hand placement ... this ultimately leads to a straight arm and then such elbow pain that I stop shooting.  So I started "regripping" mybows so I shot low wrist almost straight grip, that forces me to change grip and use a bent elbow.  Now I shoot well again with no pain.  So that has also lead to my curiosity of a Hill as the grip is straight.  

Lastly, I love thin in width, deep cored limbs like my Deathwish or Longwalker.  That limb profile has always shot better for me.  I did get an Abbot longbow recently at low poundgage to assist with my elbow.  It is a semi locator grip that is pretty straight (thin cored limbs however) and I do not have much pain shooting it ... plus it is yew and cocobolo so WOW is it sexy!

Bob.

Snakebit, I am looking at a Cheetah  currently.  You shoot a tembo @ 70 plus ... Damn!

The bow I am looking at is 34@26, so like 44 at my 30 inch draw.  I figured going light might the best way to figure them out as well as not to stress my elbow.  We will see.

Bob.

i shot a d shaped bow a like 2 weeks ago and it was a great shooter. smooth draw and shock was very little. idk if it was a mild r/d that braced to a D though, maybe that would explain why it was such a nice shooter. i want one just like it bad

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
i shot a d shaped bow a like 2 weeks ago and it was a great shooter. smooth draw and shock was very little. idk if it was a mild r/d that braced to a D though, maybe that would explain why it was such a nice shooter. i want one just like it bad

unbrace the bow and look at the limbs, then you'll know for sure if it's a hybrid mild r/d or an afl.  wanna bet which one it is?  ;)

Original quote by Howard Hill

"I use the straight-end split bamboo longbow for the simple reason that it requires a less exacting hold and loose to get necessary accuracy while hunting, where quick shots must be made from unconventional positions standing, kneeling or sitting not the traditional target archer's pose."

You know, I really like Howard Hill and his bows and his stories and movies, but I must disagree with his famous statement (above). Or at least I think it needs to be qualified a little. I'm guessing he made the comment about the early recurves which may (or may not have) been a bit more tricky to master. But I truly believe that it is the modern recurve in the general style so common that has truly opened the doors to successful hunting and shooting to more archers. Also, the shape of those contraptions that they shoot at the Olympics is closer to our typical recurves, so that must say something. That said, I love my Hills. But I love other bows, too.

and to add to what stone and ben just said, the blend of howard's afl longbow and the recurve of ben pearson gave birth to the hybrid longbows of today, offering the stability of the american flat longbow, and the performance of the modern recurve ... too bad howard never got to use a hybrid.

Maybe the resurgance and interest in the "Hill" is that many tradtional bowhunters are coming to the same conclusion that Howard Hill did so many years ago.  

"...a bow that is short, recurved on the ends, set back in the handle, has delicate ends on its limbs, takes a light string, is exceptionally fast, and does not misbehave in the hand on the recoil is commonly called a sensitive bow.  All these characteristics tend to make a graceful, beautiful bow that is fast of cast and that will shoot accurately when aimed and loosed with perfect technique, but woe be unto him who makes the least mistake in shooting a sensative bow of this type.
A straight-end longbow that follows the string slightly, with good cast, carries a heavy string, is pleasing to draw, and is comfortable in the hand, can be shot much more accurately under hunting conditions than a sensative bow." Howard Hill, Hunting the Hard Way p. 85-86

Ahhh... but he did try a hybrid.
I remember an interview with Bob Stotler in one one the earlier issues of TBM.
Bob related the story of Howard shooting a reflex/deflex longbow that the Stotler brothers used to make called the "Gamebuster".

After shooting a quiver full of arrows from it, he turned to them and said - That's the fastest bow in the world, then handed it back to them and walked off... and never shot that bow again.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lambow:
Ahhh... but he did try a hybrid.
I remember an interview with Bob Stotler in one one the earlier issues of TBM.
Bob related the story of Howard shooting a reflex/deflex longbow that the Stotler brothers used to make called the "Gamebuster".

After shooting a quiver full of arrows from it, he turned to them and said - That's the fastest bow in the world, then handed it back to them and walked off... and never shot that bow again.

ah, but that wasn't a modern hybrid at all, it was a recurve made to look like a longbow.  there's a strong difference, indeed.  the hybrid mild r/d longbows of today are nothing like what was thought of in the 70's.  like apples 'n' oranges.

Howard could have been from the same school a lot of folks come out of.."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

It's also possible that he could have been a lot like me too.. just plain ole stubborn and set in his ways..lol

God bless,Mudd

My short stint with HH bows was very pleasing. I really didn't think the bow had that much shock at all. It was smooth,fast enough for me, but most of all,QUIET! I never really got into the idea of put your pinky here,your thumb here,etc. I just grabbed it and shot it. Lucky for me it hit where I was looking. I guess I was blessed.
I'm a firm believer that good form is a must. But I also believe a "simple" bow should be shot,well, simple. If that even makes sense to ya. I actually wish I never got rid of the one I had. It was a beaut. Little rough on my ailing shoulder at the time I guess. I'll be in the market for one again,soon I hope.

Still enjoying these HH threads. Good Luck!

I would have to Agree Mudd ...

Every one I have ever shot rattled my teeth!! I have a bud who shoots one very well and he uses light spined arrows(50-55 out of 60# bow) made of ash, this does help as the arrows are heavy 700-800 grains, but still feels like a broomstick to me. Good for the guys who shoot them and that shoot them well! Shawn

I have always shot "Hill" Style bows. IMO.. most traditional shooters today lean toward the Recurve or the Hybrid Longbow due to the similarity in handle design "feel" and move from the compound. With proper brace height and proper arrow, Hill style bows are fine. I have never had a problem with Hand Shock.

Howard could of shot a broomstick with matched arrows, just like Ron LeClair and many others. I have gripped a Hill style bow every which way and I have never shot one that did not have handshock. Sorry but they all do and it may not effect some but they have put a hurtin on too many people to say there is not some truth in that statement. Shawn

Hmm I have not shot very many trad bows at all. I now own 2 one a Inature Viper and the other an Osage I made myself. I was wondering if I made a Hill bow or an American long bow, well I have learned through this thread they are one and the same. The viper does have hand shock. I think I will try to get ride of that, one by redoing the overlays and two heavy arrows. I have read that the FF strings clam them down. This bow does have mild r/d though.

However, my first homemade bow; my Osage; I let a soldier shoot it today and he all he could say was wow that is smooth, and that is all he kept saying about it.

I was really pleased with that, the bow is not finished, needs to be sanded and tips worked down a little, but my point is he has only shot re-curves, and now wants one like mine, and it looks like a HH bow to me. (I am going to help him make one if all goes well)

I just don't know about hand shock and noise yet, I am still learning but I know the one I made does not have the shock that the one I bought does.

I really don't know squat about why others want or  shoot them I just wanted to make my own bow, and it was the easiest to make and shoot so I did it.

Happy shooting and hunting to all,
Kelly

My experience tells me that if I am shooting a hill style longbow that is tillered normally for them, I am better if I shoot much like Hill taught. However, if I am shooting a recurve I adjust my form to match the grip.  I have an r/d longbow with a slight saddle that I shoot exactly like a Hill longbow. It is faster and has no more or less hand shock than my Hill styles with fast flight strings. I will say that with the Hill style bows I can can be a little more accurate at very fast shots than I am with the r/d bows. I have shot two deer on a fast trot with a Bear takedown and my biggest buck was shot with a Bear Super K on the move.  Rabbits is a different story, there is a definite advantage for Hills when shooting bunnies. I think if one prefers using a higher wrist and straight arm form, a recurve or hybrid of some type would be a more effective bow. If one is somewhere in the middle a quality r/d bow would best, as they can be shot either way depending on the grip to certain extent. whichever bow one chooses, it will work best for you if you shoot it the way it was designed to be shot.  A Hill style longbow can be made to shoot three under, a bow I had tillered and designed for three under had the limbs at equal length and were tillered evenly and it did not require a very much higher than normal nocking point, but most of time three under shooters shooting standard Hills complain of the bows reactions and the inconsistent arrow flight. A hybrid tillered for three under is still most times better than a three under tillered Hill style. In the end how a bow is shot is dictated more by the grip and the tillering than the final limb shape.

QuoteOriginally posted by SteveMcD:
I have always shot "Hill" Style bows. IMO.. most traditional shooters today lean toward the Recurve or the Hybrid Longbow due to the similarity in handle design "feel" and move from the compound. With proper brace height and proper arrow, Hill style bows are fine. I have never had a problem with Hand Shock.

it's not at all about the handle.  AFL's (hill style longbows) and hybrid mild r/d longbows are very similar in looks when braced, and some of the newer AFL's, like mohawk sparrowhawks, can be had with straight, dished or locator handles, use the same riser dimensions, and very similar limb widths and thicknesses at the fades.

however, yes - AFL's *all* can have "shock" value if you don't use at least a 10gpp mass arrow weight and grip it in a manner that doesn't transmit any unused limb energy to your bowhand, bowarm, and teeth.   :)

I got one because I was being a little nostalgic thinking I might not be a ble to shoot it as well as my r/d longbows. After shooting it I sold my r/.d bows. Now I have a Jeffery longhunter a Shulz and a sunset hill on the way.

Well.. I don't dispute the pro's and con's of Hill Style Bows. But I will always believe it depends on the shooter. I have always shot Howard Hill or Hill Style bows. So it must boil down to what you are use to, and how you set up your bow and matched arrows. There are many advocates of the Hill Style Longbow, just as there are those that prefer the Hybrids.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Steve ... Us straight Limb fella's ...
we are just cool , more handsome and refuse to be Girly men .......
we are the kids who sat up the back of the bus .

  :goldtooth:

I think at first guys overbowed themselves and shot light arrows to try to catch up in speed to a compound. Today with a 6 strand 450+ padded loop string and heavy arrow, they are sweet shooters. If you don't squeeze the grip like a vise, shoot a heavy arrow and use a skinny string there is very little hand shock. They are dead silent.

Also I did testing and when a Hill gets up to 13 grains per pound it is as fast as a fast recurve, has great momentum and kinetic energy with very little hand shock.

Having said all that you either love them or hate. I love them and always have. Now that I shoot a heavy arrow and skinny string I really love shooting them.

I had Ron maulding build me a Hill style longbow in the early 80s. It was 5 lamb tonkin bamboo 68" and 70# @ 28. I hunted that bow for 30 years and shot it in an indoor league against compound shooters back then.

I still like shooting my Hills and Hill style bows, but now I discovered Jack Harrison's longbows and now they are the ones I shoot and hunt with.

I can shoot My Mohawks for Hours Folks.    :knothead:

I can shoot my Hills for hours with no loose fillings or sore body parts!  :D

I am really getting wore out from having all these loose body parts and sore fillings falling off.  These Hill style bows are just tearin' me up.  Time for a fiberglass/bamboo campfire, because if it has a bump and a thump it cannot be shot.  The objective of any bow is that it should never thump the hand and that any bow can be shot with a jammed out straight armed stubbed down bow arm and the arrow whisks away through the cosmotic ether like a computer game laser beam.  I would just go to a high powered rifle but there is the noise, that pukey burnt smell, and even worse than hand shock,,, terrible SHOULDER SHOCK.

I shot my Steve Turray Classic this morning just like every morning. Had to beat the rain. If it rains two days in a row I will go to the barn and shoot. No handshock that I perceive.(They are mild in the hand) I like the fact that I dont have to use multiple string silencers to make it quiet.(They are quiet) Not braggin but I had several groups at 20 to 23 yrds. the size of an apple.(They are deadly) If I for one minute thought a Hill style bow was inferior at taking game I would not shoot it. To many game taken world wide to shoot that kinda bull.(no pun intended)

When in my early twenties, I walked into Hugh Rich's shop and picked up a Howard Hill Longbow, and asked if I could shoot it, he said, sure go ahead. After awhile he told me to get a hold of the bow, and keep the bowhand and release still upon release. I believe he was instructing me to heal the bow. Anyway, I listened, as he was willing to help and I knew he was good friends with Howard, and I figured he must know something about shooting a longbow.

Soon after that, I bought a 69", Hill longbow that was 72#, and shot it for a long time, and still have the bow. What I learned later from John Schulz, really helped and convinced me, that form matters.

If your interested in shooting one, read his book, or watch his video/DVD, or talk with one of several people that learned from Howard or John. I am sure there are others that learned it early, and some like my self that took awhile.

Yes, it is possible to get a poorly designed longbow, or recurve for that matter, but I would bet, getting some one-on-one instruction, or help would make a world of difference, if you don't have it down, and would like too.

No Ole Thumpers welcome here.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by sawtoothscream:
i shot a d shaped bow a like 2 weeks ago and it was a great shooter. smooth draw and shock was very little. idk if it was a mild r/d that braced to a D though, maybe that would explain why it was such a nice shooter. i want one just like it bad

unbrace the bow and look at the limbs, then you'll know for sure if it's a hybrid mild r/d or an afl.  wanna bet which one it is?   ;)  [/b]

only see the guy that owns it once a year. im guessing it was a mild r/d though.