anyone , the pros and cons of flemish twist versus endless loop ,thanks
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=092387
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=091638
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=090050
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=088786
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=086112
There are heaps more; these are just what stood-out in the first two pages of the search.
flemish twist Pros = Looks Great on any tradbow
flemish twist con's = none
endless loop pro's = good string
endless loop con's = doesn't look as Nice as a Flemish Twist String..
Both are just as Good as the other..
Other than being ugly, I have noticed that some endless strings are noisy on some bows more so than flemish, which probably has more to do with what the loops are served with rather than being of endless construction. It also bothers me that the endless string has a lower strand count of load bearing strands in the portion of the string that takes the most abuse, which is of course the loops. While physics may state that those strands can hold the load, it is indeed the place where endless strings do tend to fail. Of course, that may VERY WELL BE due to an archer's neglect of not replacing the strings when they are worn.
Both will work though.
I did a little experiment about 5 months to win a bet over this topic. A friend stated that an endless loop was slower and noisier so off to the races we went. He built me an endless loop for my bow and we proceeded. Both strings, samr strand count,no silencers shot the same chrono speed, and made close to the same amount of noise,with him agreeing.I won a lunch and he is playing with endless loops. :archer:
there is NOTHING at all 'inferior' about endless bowstrings. heck, from at least the 50's on up to the resurgence of 'trad archery' you could only get commercially spun endless bowstrings.
both string types - endless and flemish - are 'trad to the bone' and will get the job done. they both have the same lifespan, not one is in any way inferior to the other. trust me on this, i've made thousands of endless and hundreds of flemish bowstrings over the last 55 years.
this is not at all about what's better, it's strictly about personal preference. that's all.
thanks for that input
I don't know why anyone would think a flemish would be faster than an endless. That doesn't make any sense to me. I have noticed a noise difference though on some bows...but as I stated, that has to do with the serving hitting the limbs on a recurve...and I suspect some of the softer servings may reduce that.
One thing I have found is the it takes flemish a little longer to stretch or settle into their final length. Other than that no difference.
I have tried both and prefer the flemish over the endless loop. They look better and I like having more string in the loop area.
I can think of a very few instances where one works better than the other.
It's easier to make a very short endless string, or one with very large loops--for Magyar type bows with siyahs.
Flemish strings seem to be quieter, especially when they contact the limb as they do on a recurve.
There are "band-aids" for most problems, and often the problem to be fixed has more to do with form problems or bow design problems than the string. Properly tuned (there's the catch), there's practically no difference other than preferance.
since endless strings require served loops, the harder loop serving can make a louder slap on recurves - no difference on longbows the string loops only touch the limb nocks.
in the long run, endless and flemish strings on recurves will both be served best (pun intended!) using bow hush.
It should be noted that some bowyers will void a warranty if you don't follow their reccomendations for strings.
I know of one that will void his warranty if you use a flemish (or dacron) string, another who either voids or shortens the warranty if you use a flemish string. Another blamed a twisted limb on a flemish string that was supplied with the bow, and subsequently did not warranty the bow (figure that one out!).
There's no factual basis for any of these, but the one who makes the bow also gets to make the warranty.
Be sure you read your warranty information first, message board opinions second--or do your homework before you wind up with a bow with said restrictions.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
It should be noted that some bowyers will void a warranty if you don't follow their reccomendations for strings.
I know of one that will void his warranty if you use a flemish (or dacron) string, another who either voids or shortens the warranty if you use a flemish string. Another blamed a twisted limb on a flemish string that was supplied with the bow, and subsequently did not warranty the bow (figure that one out!).
There's no factual basis for any of these, but the one who makes the bow also gets to make the warranty.
Be sure you read your warranty information first, message board opinions second--or do your homework before you wind up with a bow with said restrictions.
yes indeed.
before ordering out a stick bow, i'd be sceptical of any bowyer telling me that a certain
type of bowstring (flemish or endless) can cause bow damage. that makes no sense whatsoever and would raise up a flag of alarm pronto.
QuoteThere's no factual basis for any of these...
I should have said "There's no factual basis for any of these RESTRICTIONS...". I have copies of the two warrantys, and first-hand experience with the bow with a twisted limb. Just wanted to make that clear.
I would agree with the above statements about bowyers and warranties...with one exception. I can understand why a bowyer would not warrant a bow for using an ultra-light weight string, even if for no other reason than to push a customer into making a logical decision that may prevent damage that could have been avoided. I myself would be disapointed if someone used a 4-6 strand string on a bow that I made...dry fired it, damaged the bow, and then came back to me to say the bow broke while they were shooting their bow with a 12 strand string. So, I would say...use good judgement and being honest are most important. By adding restrictions to a waranty, the bowyer may convince the customer to play it safe...and should they dry fire a bow with a 12 strand string, padded loops, heavy arrows, etc...a bow may have a better chance to survive such and therefore not tempt such a customer to be dishonest. I think that is why some warantees are written the way they are...meaning a bow may survive a light weight string if everything goes right, but...if things go wrong we now enter the zone of..."will the customer be honest."
That said, it has been my observation that most bowyers are not well versed in strings. Of course, some are. As a result, some restrictions are made for no other reason than a bad experience combined with ignorance.
this is all getting off topic, but if the topic starter will allow this to continue to a reasonable resolution ...
re: "... will the customer be honest."
the answer, from a business standpoint, must largely be "expect not".
if so, it doesn't matter what the bow warranty sez regarding both the bowstring fiber and strand count, or the arrow weight, or the business of dry firing. i don't see how a bowyer can disprove any customer busted bow claims based on the aforementioned possible warranty specifications, i.e. - dry fire, strand count versus fiber type, arrow weight, etc.
also, imho, when it comes to skinny hmpe strings - and they can ONLY be made with hmpe fibers! - even though only 2 strands can safely handle a 50# stick bow, i'd still much rather have 6 to 10 more strands 'cause i don't shoot a flight bow or a target bow, it's a hunting bow.
I have to agree with Rob, Rick, and Chad regarding endless versus flemish. In the end, it really does come down to personal preference.
Rob, I agree with your comments. Sorry for getting off topic.
All that said, I personally feel HMPE fibers like dynaflight benefit the bow so much and offer little risk that I personally won't shoot anything other than HMPE fibers and strongly recommend them.
People will be influenced by the bowyer's recommendations...and therefore if a bowyer sides on the aspect of safety, it may save a bow and prevent some issues. Of course, no one should dry fire a bow to test a bow...not even with an 18 strand dacron string...as that energy needs to go into an arrow.
John Linebaugh has developed a great achieved many successes by pushing the limits in revolvers...and ended up achieving things that some people believed impossible with "45 colt" size frames...but others have tried to follow his practices and ended up with parts of metal laying around when things don't go right. When someone pushes the limits, they have to be more aware of murphy's law...and understand the risks of such...AND pay more attention to the little details that many of us take for granted and overlook.
"Safety factors" are built into nearly every product in order to keep Murphy away. Some times though, some bowyers may think Mr. Murphy has something to do with endless strings or flemish strings as a result of previous negative experiences, but if that is the case I would venture into saying their negative experience actually had little to do with the type of string that was used.
I use both flemish and endless. I can make endless, it's real easy.
I also know with endless, if it's a 14 strand string, you have all 14 strands going around the limb tips.
Darren
Darren - "I also know with endless, if it's a 14 strand string, you have all 14 strands going around the limb tips."
Darren, although I have made endless strings before, I don't do so very often but in a 14 strand string I believe you have 8 strands going around one tip and 7 strands going around the other tip unless one pads the loops. Perhaps you meant to say in a flemish string?
Rob, due to Murphy's Law...when it comes to hunting bows...I too like to keep a decent safety factor margin in my equipment...be it arrow weight, string count in the body, or string count in the loops. I won't shoot less than 9 strands of dynaflight97 for that reason...but I really don't have any objection to shooting 12 or 15 strands either. Generally, if I am at a 3D shoot or hunting locally, I will often use 9 strands. If I was going to go on a once in a lifetime hunt and out in the middle of no where, I would probably have 12 or 15 strand strings along with 2 spares strings in my pack and maybe even an extra bow (despite NEVER having a string fail or breaking a bow). I just don't like Murphy knocking on my door and think of the cost/gain ratio of the choices we make. In a previous conversation we discussed arrow weight and even though I think many bows would survive 7 gpp...I opted to follow your advice on setting my guarantee to 8 gpp for the very same reason I described above. Generally, the people that would want to shoot 7 gpp aren't really using good judgment even if the bow can handle it because such arrows simply are not ideal for hunting applications. I opted to suggest 9-12 gpp to promote good judgment, but warranty the bows down to a minimal of 8 gpp. I decided it would be best to NOT ATTRACT THOSE THAT DON'T PRACTICE GOOD JUDGMENT. I think your advice on that matter may help me target a wiser market and promote wiser judgment. After all, those that want light arrows obviously are chasing speed over all else and very likely will go lighter and lighter in arrow weight until they have a problem with it...and I don't want to be accountable for such behavior...so by stating things in my warranty the way I did (or some other bowyer's warranty), my goal was NOT to get out of fixing a problem...but was to prevent the development of such behavior. So, I think you for your input in the gpp warranty conversation.
All that said, if one pays attention to their equipment, it doesn't matter which type of string (endless or flemish) they use...and if they don't pay attention, it still won't matter. Ever met someone that said their motor is so good they don't ever have to change it? LOL. I hope not.
Bowstrings, like motor oil, are a wearable item and need to be changed once in a while.
QuoteOriginally posted by tradlongbow:
.... I also know with endless, if it's a 14 strand string, you have all 14 strands going around the limb tips.
Darren
nope, like lee sez above, for a 14 strand endless string, one loop will have 7 strands and the other 8 strands.
all my bows have 8 strand dyneema endless strings, with 6 added strands in the loop servings. the tensile strength on that string exceeds 800# and could easily be used with a 100# bow. mine are only a mere 52#-56#.
i did my testing and that's what works best for me. with less hmpe strands, the string is 'softer' than if with 50% more strands. and very noticeably quieter.
i've got the same 8 strand dyneema endless string on my main 55# longbow for over 2 years and probably a few thousand shots throug it. looks almost like new, 'cept for a little hog blood on it. :) dyneema is really tough stuff, and halo spectra center serving is tougher yet.
no matter what the string build or spex, 2 years is pushing it with a string that gets a few thousand arrows through it. i usually build a new string each spring. i'm due.
i always carry the same pair of spare strings and each have been setup and shot in for a coupla hundred arrows at least. i've never had to use a spare yet ... but hey, that's what spare strings are for.