How do you think good bowyers would handle a customers request to use materials/woods that would probably result in a bow that only a mother could love? The materials wouldn't jepordize the safety or performance of the bow, but the combination may be God-Awful, so do you think they would say yes or no?
I would think that as long as they offered the wood choices or could get the woods then why not - it's your money.
They may try and steer you a different direction, but a good bowyer should build to your wishes as long as the bows integrity could stay in tact, like Koko said, it's your money.
I'm just wondering if they just wouldn't want someone to see a bow that others might not find too appealing?
The smart thing to do is take whatever work comes your way. If one guy says no out of principle, then there is always someone in the wings ready to take their money, and make you exactly what you want. After all, the customer is always right, aren't they? I've made a pretty good living off of doing just that. Some requests were no where near on my list of things I would like my name on, but the Benjamin's spoke volumes to me, and I did what they wanted in the end. We both left very happy when I was done.
I would expect a good bowyer to steer me in the right direction that would also be agreeable to me. It is my responsiblity to be up front and ask him to be candid and that I am requesting his guidance. My confidence in the bowyers I have worked with far exceed what I think I want.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I would not build a bow that I knew was going to look bad and that the customer might decide , it didn't look like he thought it would, and then wanted me to keep his ugly bow.
Keep in mind that plain and ugly are two different cats and that a beautiful bow cab be built with plain wood.
However ugly is just ugly. I would do my best to talk the customer out of it and tell him why.
I have turned down customers. I do not have to build bows for people I do not feel right about. There is lots more to life than money. That said I have the best customers in the world. They are my friends. God Bless you All, Steve
There are some really ugly color combinations out there.
I remember a couple bows named the: Steelers bow, even a LA pimp longbow!
Pink and black and all different colors...
Guy's seemed to eat it up!
What the bowyer thinks looks like absolute crap, might be the prettiest bow ever to some people.
QuoteOriginally posted by J. Oles:
There are some really ugly color combinations out there.
I remember a couple bows named the: Steelers bow, even a LA pimp longbow!
Pink and black and all different colors...
Guy's seemed to eat it up!
was the steelers bow the one for sale on archery talk? the zona bow?
i bought a new bow an di wanted something that looks pretty good but not flashy. i like how the bow turned out. looks good to me, just cant wait to see it in person
Ok, im laughing right now.I love this post because it has happen to me.We were talking wood choises. Then it came,he said "Well i think i want ect,ect." what do you think? My thoughts ran fast and i said that would be just fine if thats your wish.Then i said i also think your wood choise could go very nice with ect. wood. He said,your right,i really like that idea.When i was done with his bow told me he loved it and was glad i suggested ect.wood.I would have done what ever he would have wanted but was glad he liked my idea.Yes, bowyers will do what a customer wants, but we do like to design a nice looking bow.
A gentleman from down south ordered an elkskin quiver from me. The body was to be the usual gold, but all trim was to be kelly green. I did it, but it was "different".
Best part, it was to match his takedown recurve, hmmmmmmm...what did that look like?
I'm not a bowyer but am in a business where I have to do "custom" type stuff for folks. Here's my take on it. I try to steer the customer in the right direction but if he won't budge and I can't live with the job myself, I pass on it. After 40 years of dealing with the public I have learned a thing or two. The main thing is, people won't take responsibility for their own decisions. Some bowyer builds a guy an ugly bow, after discussions about how it will look. The bowyer opts out for the $$$ instead of his integrity. New bow owner shows it off at the next 3D shoot. All there howl and laugh and ask "where'd you get that thing?" The owner will throw the bowyer under the bus and never mention that it's exactly how he ordered it. Remember, anything you build and sell will have your name on it for it's entire life, not just the time the first owner owns it. Be proud to put your name on anything you build or don't build it.
With the exceptions of leopard wood and lace wood Ive never seen a wood species that I could call ugly. All I can say is I cant wait to see your Frankenstein bow.
Never seen an ugly bow,seen some that were plain,but never ugly.
Artists and their Patron's have had this conflict well before the Sistine Chapel ceiling was commissioned.
Each artist must deal with it on an individual basis. Just remember that most "Archers" (not on this site of course) consider wheelie bows as works of art and worth many thousands of dollars. Everyone has their own concept of beauty.
No matter how ugly we might think something is someone out there will like it or as the saying goes "different strokes for different folks" :dunno:
I've started on bows following customers requests that I thought would be absolutely hideous when completed but turned out to be gorgeous when done. I was wrong and they were right. If the customers wood selections won't impact the quality of the finished product in regards to performance, or in any other way, then who am I to say what is pretty and what is ugly.
Never seen a bow that was too plain, but seen many I considered awful gaudy. Some of them look like a saleman's wood sample display. Hey, each to his own.
When you build bows you are creating an image and a brand. That kind of makes it important that you build to that brand ., that you maintain it. What my brand is can be immensely improved or rapidly diminished by the quality and looks of even one bow. Like someone said . even if the owner likes the bow but takes it to shoots and everyone sees it and says , where did that piece of garbage come from. Your name is on it. It effects the brand. In spite of all the caterwauling about wanting plain hunting bows I get orders that amount to fancy customs well over 909 opercent of the time. That is customer choice. I personally kind of like plain. Not ugly but nice wood that is complementary. However when the guys start ordering they want this, then that, then more and finally its a full blown custom with all the foo foo. I understand that , but then these are the very same guys that come on the threads and say I don't like fancy, I just like plain bows, LOL.
God Bless you all, Steve
Well, see, Izzy, I really like the looks of lacewood and snakewood. If it's "custom" that means you get it the way YOU want it--not how the bowyer likes it. Really, wood choices and grip shape (to a limited degree)are about all that we really get to choose in a "custom" bow beside X weight at X draw length. The rest is already built into the form so much so that after a while you can tell what brand a bow is just by looking at the shape of the riser and cosmetics....Dave
This is a funny thread!
What is strange is that both the most beautiful bow I've seen and the ugliest come from the same bowyer!
Of course being on a totally different continent, I feel safe in telling you they are both River Edge Recurves! ^^
One is Joe VT's RER LXR with Zircote/Olive Ash Burl, the other some bubblegumcolored thing!
(Sorry to anyone who owns that bow if this offends you)
That goes mainly on color/wood though.. I'm glad we don't all like tha same thing :)
Yes it is a funny thread. However it does show the human nature quite well. God bless you all and have a great day.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flinttim:
... Remember, anything you build and sell will have your name on it for it's entire life, not just the time the first owner owns it. Be proud to put your name on anything you build or don't build it.
I'm not a bowyer either,but EXACTLY...
You know I once set out to buy an "ugly" bow. I wanted a bow that I wouldn't mind beating up in the woods. So I noticed Sky Archery had these Sky Eagle bows on sale. Bingo, all actionwood, all "ugly". But the ugly duckling actually is a super sweet shooter, maybe the best I have ever shot. Now I don't want to ding her up.....I know I'm hopeless.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/263819f.jpg)
The comments about a bowyer putting his name on the bow and risking damaging his brand make sense to me.
About 10 months ago I discussed a certain combination of woods with a bowyer. I was headed for 2 woods in the riser (not counting the accent stripes) and a different wood for the back and face of the limbs. I appreciated his honest answer. He told me these bows often look like the bowyer gathered scraps off the floor and used them on a bow. He told me he thought the bow would look to "busy".
I think it is interesting that great to one isn't to another. I was surpised someone might not like lacewood? But, I can tell you I will likely never have bocote used as limb veneers again. Its likely just me but those grains are so highly animated they almost look "fake". I'm not saying the bocote is ugly, it's just too much of a good thing for my eye.
Alright, this thread is begging for pics. :pray: You can call it plain or ugly, or just plain ugly. I want to see them.
Hey Ric; at the worst that Bow could have looked " Pretty Ugly" . LOL
I like Plain Bows Myself , not ugly. this is a fun thread.
i am having some selfbows made right now.there is a reason that i picked these guys to make me a bow.i have seen their work.i want their imput in their work.there is a reason we pick them.they are true artists.i try to put in as little as i can.to me it would be like telling piccaso what to paint.they are artists and craftsmen.it is hard for me to put limitations on their creativity.i guess i just love one of a kind type bows,steve
Build ugly bows for perfect performance. Take the business and know the rest of your bows will continue to sell the product.
Personally I think action wood is gosh awful ugly, but I have seen some beautiful examples of it.
I know someone with a green bow from Kanati. If I were to describe the neon greenish riser it would sound ugly but isn't. In fact it's really nice. I tend to be attracted to ugly things, good thing I had a moment of clarity when I met my wife. :readit:
I have plenty of beautiful bows. All great performers, and the bow I would want built would need to be a performer also. I described part of my idea to one bowyer and his first comment was "wild". I'm a big boy, and I think I have a certain amount of integrity whereas I would never blame someone else for my choices. I guess I just wanted to get a feeling so that when I approach bowyers with my "complete package" that I'll have a good idea of what to expect. I appreciate everyones feedback, especially you bowyers, that have taken the time to help me prepare for my decision.
Bowwild, Actually that is a quite nice looking riser. the design makes that bow. To me that is not ugly. I guess that perhaps some are not understanding what I am saying. But then I never was the best at explaining myself. God Bless you all.
Oh and as far as ugly wood. It could be painted. I used to paint all my bows. Now I just dull them down , snake em or put a sock on em;
steve
Funny, I just got off the phone with a with a very established bowyer. I consider him to be an artist. I told him to build a bow for me that he would build for himself. Can't wait to see what he comes up with. I've never seen him build an ugly one. I figure somebody that builds bows for 20 or 30 years must know what they are doing and have a little better idea what combos look better and where. Now, I am an artist and a very creative guy. I have been a contractor for 25 years. I can say with all honesty that I do my best work when I like what I'm doing. I have a much more positive attitude which is reflected in my work. Everybody ain't an artist!!! :nono:
thats what i am talking about horatio.not everyone is an artist.i pick a bowyer based on what i have seen.when you look at what they have done and say,i need a bow from that guy you need to trust that they will build you a beautiful bow.give those guys a little freedom and i am sure you will not be disappointed.you saw what they have done in the past,thats what drawed you to them in the first place.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
When you build bows you are creating an image and a brand. That kind of makes it important that you build to that brand ., that you maintain it. What my brand is can be immensely improved or rapidly diminished by the quality and looks of even one bow. Like someone said . even if the owner likes the bow but takes it to shoots and everyone sees it and says , where did that piece of garbage come from. Your name is on it. It effects the brand. In spite of all the caterwauling about wanting plain hunting bows I get orders that amount to fancy customs well over 909 opercent of the time. That is customer choice. I personally kind of like plain. Not ugly but nice wood that is complementary. However when the guys start ordering they want this, then that, then more and finally its a full blown custom with all the foo foo. I understand that , but then these are the very same guys that come on the threads and say I don't like fancy, I just like plain bows, LOL.
God Bless you all, Steve
Reminds me of our conversation when we were planning my new bow, Steve. I told you I wanted a dark bow with understated elegance. You nailed it, IMO; however, others might use different descriptors for the bow. Some of the best custom bows, riflestocks, shotgun stocks, and furniture I've seen were made from rather plain materials.
I do not care how they look as long as they shoot good . They are going to get camoed some any way.
Marblecake English Walnut is not plain wood (grin) I did build a couple of bows with some. Buttttt its so hard to find. Very Very expensive when you do too. Butttttttttt, Talk about a class bow. English walnut MMMMMMMMMMM
Personally, my eye is not drawn to the wood combinations of a bow as much as it is to the lines of the bow, the glue joints, clarity of the glass, workmanship, etc.
Last year, I had a bow on the table with green camo dymondwood and green popular veneers that I didn't care for the looks of much. I was amazed at how many people picked it up and admired it. It sold to a young man who shot his first trad deer with it, a nice buck. He loves it. Who knows. Chad
Good post Chad.
In an effort to create something that nobody else has, wood combinations have become rather rediculous in my opinion.
Art is art but different isn't always better.
Mike the wood choice it totally up to the person with the money. We may ask the person are you sure if they say yes we build the bow the way they ordered it.
Maybe I missed it what woods to you want?
"Mike the wood choice it totally up to the person with the money. We may ask the person are you sure if they say yes we build the bow the way they ordered it."
I agree. That's where the word "custom" comes into play.
I once had a customer who requested a bow and told me to just make it "pretty". I quizzed him on wood colors, etc but he said to just make it "pretty" and left the wood choices in my hands. I agreed and made a bow that I thought definately fitted the definition of pretty, as did other who saw the bow. I shipped it off and a few days later recieved a call from the customer. He stated he loved the way the bow shot but it wasn't "pretty", so I took the bow back. I learned a lesson there.
Good point Ric and exactly what I was talking about. One thing I definately try to do is get a handle on the (Look) the customer wants.
Talk about pretty. You live in the prettiest place in the world Bro. God Bless you all, Steve
I don't say this to conflict with anyone as I believe the whole matter is one of individual choice. The customer has a choice in what he wants and the bowyer has a choice as to wether he accepts the job. That's the disclaimer, now my opinion ...
I don't build bows but I have come to a place where my personal identity is not caught up in my work. I provide a service, to the customers needs/desires. Some other person may view it and say "I don't like it" but what matters is a satisfied customer. I attempt to satisfy each customer the same and I'd rather have that reputation than be known as an artist.
I do understand some bowyers reservations because the world is full of morons that don't truly know what they want and can never be satisfied. However, when dealing with a reasonable person with odd tastes I say "go for it".
SIXBY, I Agree. Whitefish is Pretty.
I didn't mention any wood combo's yet except to one bowyer. I'm going to keep it to myself until I decide the exact bow I want to have built, and then find someone to build it. It is funny, but I saw part of this combo years ago on 2 different bows, and it has just stuck with me. Part of the "Frankenbow" has just recently came to me as I've seen new work and wood that is avaiable. I sure do appreciate everyone's input. It wouldn't be art, but it would be part like me, just a few degrees off center.
To me a bow is sculpture. Blood, sweat and inspiration. Different perspectives I guess.
I have the inspiration, practice and tuning will provide the sweat, some critter will provide the blood.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
Marblecake English Walnut is not plain wood (grin) I did build a couple of bows with some. Buttttt its so hard to find. Very Very expensive when you do too. Butttttttttt, Talk about a class bow. English walnut MMMMMMMMMMM
Heavily marbled English walnut is the only wood that can make me salivate when I look at it!