I don't understand "paper tuning" for traditional equipment. How does it really work. I always have heard that paradox never goes away from the time the arrow leaves the bow until it hits the target. I hear people say they paper tuned their equipment until they got a small hole in the paper instead of tearing it. Supposedly this means the arrow is tuned properly and flying straight and true. Here is my question. If the arrow is still in paradox, if you moved foward or backwards from the spot you supposedly "tuned" the arrow would it not start tearing the paper in one direction or another? I just dont see how an arrow that is continuously flexing back and forth in flight can be paper tuned at all. Maybe I am wrong but it just sounds like an unnecessary practice.
I've tried the bare shaft method and have not had much luck with it either. I seem to have better luck just fletching the arrows and messing with point weight until I have found a combo that is easy to group with. So far,I have found very few types of arrows that I cannot get to shoot well(at least for my skill).
Has anyone else here observed the same thing I have? What have you found to be the best way to tune? Seems like everything has progressed to the point of being a little too technical.
I have been shooting the AD trads and Easton Axis. I have gotten them to shoot pretty well without going to a lot of trouble. I guess I am just wondering if by using my simple method, am I tuning them to to their best potential?
Dave
I do better paper tuning then bareshaft tuning. I have to find the video that shows an arrow coming out of paradox.
so whats happening when you bare shaft? should either be stiff or week. point weight should solve that one way or another. imo
If you paper tune you should position the paper at 10yds. The arrow will have gone through paradox and will give you an accurate reading. I still use bare shaft tuning for great results.
I may get flogged for this but oh well here goes. I used to do a lot of paper tuning and I mean A LOT but even though my set-ups would shoot bullet holes through paper I noticed that when I strapped a Bhead on the front and started shooting at 20+yds that I had to adjust to get perfect flight. Well I decided it was a waste of time and paper to shoot through paper at 5-10yds and then retune with Bheads, so now I just bareshaft occasionally but mostly broadhead tune. If you're not able to shoot broadheads or shoot at longer range then I think paper tuning is a good start to the process, but if you have the range to do it then I think your time is better spent with bareshafts or better yet with broadhead tuning. JMO.
i am with kenneth on this one!
I only tune with broadheads. Everything else seems to fly good after I do that. Gary
Paper tuning absolutely works, but it's not absolutely required. While paradox never stops, it does dwindle down to the point that you can't detect the wiggle in a paper-tuning hole.
I always start paper tuning at about two yards, then back up to ten or twelve once the holes look good just to double check my results.
You can get by without any sort of tuning, but you will never KNOW if that stray was because of you or because of your equipment. For me that's unacceptable. I tune so I know it was the fool holding the string that caused the miss!
I fiddled with paper tuning trad equipment and for me it was a waste of time. I find that bare shaft to fletched field point tuning works a lot better. Once I have the bare shaft to fletched field point arrow groups tuned, it takes very little adjustment to get my broadheads to field point arrows flying into the same hole. The last two years I have not had to change brace height or nock set at all when I was getting ready for season. I like to bare shaft to fletched tune at 20 yards then do it again at 30 yards which gives me a fine tune on my brace height and nock set position.
I agree with Jeff. Just because fletched arrows look like they're flying straight, doesn't mean they are. And just because arrows group, doesn't mean they're flying straight either. I paper tune and bare shaft tune. If done properly, both work just fine.
I am with Kenneth on this. I ran a sporting good/Archery Pro shop for years,and some bows bare shaft tune, but put a hunting head/setup on them and they often have to start over, wheelie bow or trad. I found it best to go by a spine chart, cut the shaft to its minumum, and then tune with finished arrow. But that's just my opinion, from working on hundreds of bows a year. Oh yeah, forgot to mention, 58 deer and 10 turkeys with a bow also seem to agree that it is effective.
It works
but like sagebrush says...broadheads will show you the same thing. I bare shaft but I fine tune at longer ranges with broadheads.
I used papertuning with compounds for 20+ years -- ever since I found out about it. When I've achieved the "bullet" hole with fletch, I'm done and the broadheads will impact with the field tips as far as I want to test them.
However, I'll admit, this first year getting back to traditional seriously, I haven't relied on paper-tuning. I'm using Stu's Calculator and so far, with more than 10 bows (all very close or identical in draw weight)the broadheads and field tips are in the same group (broadhead first followed by field tips - I hate destroying arrows).
I see no reason why paper-tuning would work any less effectively out of traditional equipment so I need to do it. By the way, I've always paper-tuned at 8 feet -- before the fletch has had opportunity to correct (somewhat) for poor tune. The paper needs to be at shoulder height.
There is another way. You can make a cross with electrical or painters tape (1" diameter) on cardboard -- say 12-18 inches top to bottom and side to side. To check nock locator you should the horizontal leg. To check spine use the vertical line. The object is to get the feathered shaft to strike the tape. This is the method USA Archery used to teach.
Here's the thing that always blows my mind. Very expert archers (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm talking Olympic medalists and Olympic coaches) differ wildly on the value of these various methods. A 2-time Olympic medalist threw my paper tuning frame in the trash when he saw it. His coach included paper-tuning in his DVD.
Pssst...I retrieved my paper tuning frame from the trash.
i prefer bare shaft tuning with the trad bows, when done properly and out to a long distance you can get your set-up very well tuned!
I paper tune from about ten feet, then lob broadheads at longer distances.
A big, fat, two blade will show you any flaws in arrow flight.
Not me, I just start and finish with Broadheads & my Keen eyesight, never had an issue ...
I didn't paper tune for a long time for a couple unfounded reasons. I would bareshaft tune and I used Stu's calculator to get close. However, after trying it and seeing first hand how easy and effective paper tuning is, I have made it an essential facet of my arrow tuning.
Try this it works very well
http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Paper tuning absolutely works, but it's not absolutely required. While paradox never stops, it does dwindle down to the point that you can't detect the wiggle in a paper-tuning hole.
I always start paper tuning at about two yards, then back up to ten or twelve once the holes look good just to double check my results.
You can get by without any sort of tuning, but you will never KNOW if that stray was because of you or because of your equipment. For me that's unacceptable. I tune so I know it was the fool holding the string that caused the miss!
x3
Im with Kenneth on this one.Get them broadheads shooting good and get them sharp.Dont begrudge anyone for bareshafting/papertuning,but not for me.
i just put an x on the feathers of the good ones and thats that. :readit:
I've found paper tuning to be the best, easiest, and quickest way to tune the arrow to my bow/shooting technique so far.
YES, the arrow is always flexing as it travels to the target.
However, this flexing becomes less and less as the arrow travels.
Some here have stated they paper tested at 10yds.
I have found 10 yds to be way too far back to profit from paper tuning. The arrow and its fletching has already corrected its flight to a degree that makes it very hard to notice if it's tuned.
When the arrow is flexing around through its paradox it use using more energy per foot of travel than when it's flying straight.
So..we want to get that arrow flying straight as soon as we can without putting so much fletching on it to slow it's travel more than needed.
Now each arrow will paradox at a greater or lesser rate depending on your bow (how far from cut to center), how much fletching the arrow has, the spine of the arrow, the profile of the arrow (parr vs tapered), and to some degree the material the arrow is made from (carbon vs wood..even some woods are "snappier" than others)
..a clean consistent release helps too..lol
Anyway, myself and others have found that shooting at paper from about 7-8 feet..yes FEET..seems to be the "magic" spot.
I know bareshafting works. I've done it.
My problem with bareshafting is that you aren't testing your finished arrow. You need to account for the perceived stiffening of the spine caused by adding fletching. I would rather do my testing with an arrow setup in its finished state.
Some have said they need to retune after adding broadheads when paper tuning.
There are some broadheads that are so long they'll change your FOC a high enough degree to cause your arrows to flex differently.
I use 200grn grizz's (pretty long) and have not seen this change.
After paper tuning with field points, you can add a wt matched broadhead and your arrow will fly sweet as long as the broadhead is on straight.
I have wondered "So now my arrow punched a nice hole thru the paper at 7'. What is it doing at 10',15'...10yds...."
After testing my question..guess what..still punching holes..YAY! If I get much more than 15yds back the paper shows the arrow nock is low because of the trajectory or the arrow.
To each his own.
I would really recommend giving paper testing an honest try.
Good luck whatever you do.
:thumbsup:
Excellent post Zradix :thumbsup:
I agree with Zradix, Well said! Jason
I've always used bare shafting myself, and I've never had a arrow that didn't fly great spot on with broadheads. Maybe I'm just lucky or as Zradix said maybe thats mainly because of the broadheads that I use.
QuoteOriginally posted by ProArcher:
Try this it works very well
http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
X2! I was looking to see if anybody had posted this link before I was gonna do it. It's the same method I use to tune and it's been great so far and not complicated in the least bit.
I used to paper tune but now much prefer bare shaft tuning. I find bare shaft tuning a very accurate way to find the right spine arrow for the particular bow. I can generally get bare shafts to fly quite nicely, and then after fletching they are darts!
Like stated earlier, a fletched arrow does not show how accurately the arrow is matched to the bow unlike a bare shaft does.
The whole process isn't just shooting bare shafts but rather tinkering with tip weight, nock set, brace height, etc.
I find that after the correct shaft is selected, it will shoot a broadhead properly. Paper tuning didn't always result in a tuned broadhead set-up where as bare shaft tuning does. Also, I should add that if I've properly done my homework in shaft selection that I can vary my tip weight by approx. 100 grains and maintain good arrow flight....Ryan
QuoteExcellent post Zradix
X2
Admittedly Im still new to trad, only been doing it for 2-3yrs. That being said I have yet to have to "tune" for broadheads. Once I have the bow dialed in on paper, the bh's are on the money. Ive done this with 2 different bows with different poundages and 2 different bh's. What I did find with the paper tuning was
Very helpful. Wheel bows always tuned easy on paper, but the one longbow was giving me fits. I started to recal some of my wheel bow experience and found out it was the shooter, not the bow. I messed with how I was holding the bow, found the best method for me with that bow. Then found a more relaxed glove hand also improved things considerably. Give paper tuning a try, you might find out more then you hoped for. :thumbsup:
ps. I tune at 5-8ft with the trad bows.
pss. I can paper tune in my basement after dark = more fun time.
I went to bare shafting because once I get an arrow that flys good I start canting the bow (or shooting my normal style) and fine tune the bareshafting even more. I can see the arrow enough where I don't have to deal with looking at paper.
just me but if you can't see the arrow then paper is the way to go I would suppose.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
I agree with Jeff. Just because fletched arrows look like they're flying straight, doesn't mean they are. And just because arrows group, doesn't mean they're flying straight either. I paper tune and bare shaft tune. If done properly, both work just fine.
As always, good advice from Jason.
Especially the bold part.
There are a couple thing that you need to do when tuning is make sure that you have good form with out it, bare shaft or any other tuning is just that much harder by this I mean good release solid bow arm no death grip on bow follow through. also make sure that your string is settle in and you nock fit as tight. I had to learn this all over when I took up shooting a Traditional Bow.
I will share what I've found for myself. Bareshaft testing = somewhat of a 'coarse tune', paper tuning = more of a 'fine tune' and it's very expedient in showing one just where things are spine-wise. Also, paper tuning has shown me I can have a horizontal tear from 3 things: too stiff in spine, or too weak in spine, or a dodgy release.
I recommend bareshaft tuning and paper tuning, they're both good tools to keep in your kit, but they are not easily won and I urge patience and practice with them to see those consistent established trends in arrow flight/impact patterns.
This might be obvious, but Ill say it. When paper tunning, I like to hold the bow vertical, no cant. This helps diagnose left/right/up/down tears to what is causing them.
Seems like a lot of good info here. I appreciate all the responses. I have been using the Adcock method and have had some good results with it. I had been hearing a lot about the paper tuning method but could not see how it would be helpful with a longbow or recurve due to the increased paradox. Seems like it's really not an issue after all according to those who posted.
I have another question concerning arrow "forgiveness" but I'll start another thread about that.
Thanks again
Dave
you can't go wrong either way, just have to learn your equipment and choose the best way for you
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
I agree with Jeff. Just because fletched arrows look like they're flying straight, doesn't mean they are. And just because arrows group, doesn't mean they're flying straight either. I paper tune and bare shaft tune. If done properly, both work just fine.
That is what I find. I do both to check. I have had bare shafts with HFOC fly great to my eye and POI. I even had decent broadhead flight. Then I started to do some paper tuning just to check and found they flew 1-2" out of line out to over 20 yd. I don't see how that could be good for penetration at all. I then tuned some more with the paper to get near bullet holes from 20' out. I can get a very little variation in paper tear from 15' to about 30' and then bullet holes after that with a decent release. My broadhead flighti s as good if not better on most shots and I think more forgiving.
I shoot carbon, and I think that makes a difference in how fast the arrow stops flexing. I also believe bow center cut makes a difference in how fast the arrow stops flexing. I know it makes a difference in how much it flexes.
I also shoot at a lot of different distances when I paper tune. If you only shoot at one you can be on the wrong flex of the arrow. If the arrow is way weak or stiff you could be seeing the over correction vs. the true tear. I like to start close. Sometimes, believe it or not, I start at 2'-3' from the tip to the paper. Then walk back and shoot. That basically gives me snap shots of the arrow flight as it travels. I find that to be very helpful.
Great stuff Zradix,
I had kind of written off paper tuning, until it was presented in this manner, which fills in some of the gaps for me.
ALTHOUGH I'm still reluctnat to try it because I'm not confident enough that the cause of some bad tearing could be my form, or release.
I may give it a shot though. I currently have an arrow combo I believe would produce favarable results.
Thanks,
B
I am going to give this a try. For you experts, when paper tuning do you tune for a slight nock high tear? I have always been told that slight nock high is more forgiving and have always bareshafted to get my bare shafts to impact just below the fletched shafts. Is this correct.
BOW BUM...
I'm no great shot. My form...almost sucks lol.
However I am pretty consistent.
If your arrows are pretty similar (length, spine, pnt wt, fletching) you should see a repeating pattern in the tears. Of course when tuning shoot from the same distance each time.
If you're shooting a few arrows and the tears are all over the place (different from each other) just try shooting 1 individual arrow through the paper a few times. If in doing that you get widely varying paper tares I would say your form/release needs some work.
Chances are really good you'll see a repeating pattern though. And from that pattern you adjust your arrow (length or tip wt)
!!!IMPORTANT!!!.... DO YOURSELF A FAVOR!!!
If you feel you need to shorten your shaft a bit to stiffen it up go a little at a time. You can probably go 1/4" off at a time if the left/right tear is quite pronounced ( 1.5"+ laterally). Just remember to come back the next day and shoot your one shortened arrow to see if it is correct. I found that during a night of test shooting I had extended my draw a bit. I cut my arrows that night and the next day I had arrows that were too short. So just don't be in a hurry.
You'll see the results of wt change/length change pretty quickly and get a feel for how far to go.
Keep in mind that each arrow my be different.
Most recently I tuned in a doz tapered spruce arrows. They were wt matched and the spine were all within 3# of each other. I don't have a spine tester but I trust the man that did the work.
There were 2 arrows in that dozen that must have been 2# lighter than the others cause I needed to trim an extra 1/4" off those.
I just like being able to look at a tear in the paper. The paper doesn't lie..my eyes lie to me all the time.
Your paper "holder" doesn't need to be anything special. I literally have a 2x4 with one end laying on a high bench seat and the other a few steps up a ladder. I staple a piece of newspaper to the 2x4. I put a couple "squeeze clamps" on the bottom of the paper to hold it taught.
Just be sure you shoot at the paper square.
Good luck!! :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by bubinga:
I am going to give this a try. For you experts, when paper tuning do you tune for a slight nock high tear? I have always been told that slight nock high is more forgiving and have always bareshafted to get my bare shafts to impact just below the fletched shafts. Is this correct.
I'm no expert.
I don't know if a nock high arrow is more forgiving or not.
Seems to me having a nock high arrow flight would scrub energy during flight, not enter your prey at the best angle, possibly make more feather noise, and wouldn't be using your feathers optimally since they are designed to go straight thru the air.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts on this as I have never heard nock high=more forgiving. Maybe there's something to it.
Paper tuning is ok for some applications,(compounds mostly) because it relies heavily on your ability to consistantly repeat your shots.
Form is very important. If you vary from shot to shot, your results will vary.
Bare shaft tuning works better for traditional shooters, IMO.
dbishop,
I would suggest hooking up with an experienced archer to assist you with your set-up. Once you become cognizant of the principles and your confidence increases, you will be both, a much more confident and satisfied camper.
1. Bare shaft tuning is extremely productive.
2. The tell-all is tuning with your broadheads.
There are those that just skip the bare-shaft method and go straight to BH tuning with respect to their field point arrows.
I have friendly disputes about paper tuning and bare shafting with a buddy of mine every time we get together. He spends a lot of time doing so and swears by it. I have never done it. I started out with a 50# bow and learned what shot well out of it for carbons and aluminums using spine charts and understanding that the charts are usually pretty stiff. I spoke with a professional about spining woods and figured out what shaft would work best for me in that regard.
From then on out, even after changing bows, etc - I've simply kept the same length and adjusted point weight. I haven't had a problem since.
I'm not opposed to trying it, I just haven't had the need.
I believe both paper tuning and bare shafting are great tools, but neither should be an obsession.
I have found the best fletched arrows are SLIGHTLY weak when bareshafted.
Same as Kenneth here too. Paper or bare shaft tuned doesn't always result in great broadhead flight for me either. However, once I've got everything tuned to where the broadheads and field points shoot the same; bare shaft and paper testing looks great. With that, I only use bare shaft tuning initially to pick a shaft size, then fine tune with broadheads. Works for me.
Well, I have just been doing paper tuning and it seemed the impact was below the tear so I moved the nock several times down, but it was useless, so the next point as you know was check the clearance, but in a traditional bow you may find it is difficult to avoid some contact between the 4" 3 fletched arrows and the arrow shelf. I shoot 55# @ 28".
And next I dealt with the bare shaft tuning, to find the .400 spine fatboy with 125 grain points arrow shot at 20 meters doing a sharp bend to the right at about middle run to the target...
Buff, next thing to do is set fire to the whole stuff...!!
The funny thing is that I have just won a county prize in 3D hunting with those arrows...
I paper tune with a bareshaft for a starting point on nock height, then I use the paper to soak up the grease from some fried taters... :biglaugh:
After that it is all bareshaft to check spine and then on to BH tuning..
I'm with Ken also, paper tuning relies on your form, any flaw, or shot to shot flaw will give you false results.
If your form isn't perfect, I'd bhd and bareshaft tune.
:clapper:
ha ha!!
So what to do with the .400 spine I have? According to Easton, it is fine, but it does a terrible bend at about 10 metres... is it a question of grains at the front?
QuoteOriginally posted by Mikelo:
:clapper:
ha ha!!
So what to do with the .400 spine I have? According to Easton, it is fine, but it does a terrible bend at about 10 metres... is it a question of grains at the front?
How much you got sticking out passt the riser at full draw?
i just bareshaft now. did paper before and like the bare shaft results more
I never could paper tune well. Sloppy release can give funky results. I use to bare shaft but havent in the past ten years or so as I can usually pick the right size shaft and tune with point weight, strike plate and brace height. I just make sure my broadheads group with the field points out to about 30 yds.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mikelo:
Well, I have just been doing paper tuning and it seemed the impact was below the tear so I moved the nock several times down, but it was useless, so the next point as you know was check the clearance, but in a traditional bow you may find it is difficult to avoid some contact between the 4" 3 fletched arrows and the arrow shelf. I shoot 55# @ 28".
And next I dealt with the bare shaft tuning, to find the .400 spine fatboy with 125 grain points arrow shot at 20 meters doing a sharp bend to the right at about middle run to the target...
Buff, next thing to do is set fire to the whole stuff...!!
The funny thing is that I have just won a county prize in 3D hunting with those arrows...
You may have your nock set too low and are actually bouncing the rear of your arrow off the shelf. That will give you a nock high on paper.
I do my initial paper tune at 6 feet. I then move back to 8 or 10 yards to verify that all is right. Paper tuning will tell you in just a couple shots whether your nocking point is high or low and if your spine is weak or stiff. I will not set a bow up without paper tuning as part of the process.
Bisch
QuoteOriginally posted by hvyhitter:
Sloppy release can give funky results.
This too!
Bisch
yeah, A sloppy release will give funky results no matter how you're testing.
I like to paper tune. Others like bareshaft.
I like paper tuning as there is a physical tear that you can look at and adjust accordingly and it is testing a finished arrow.
Bareshafting just doesn't test the finished product.
You can back away from the paper once things are good from a few feet away. Just to check at longer distance.
When doing this I have never had an arrow flying sideways at distance that was poking holes at a few feet...unless I messed up my release.
Well, Javi, I have just half an inch passed my riser at full draw, it it the normal length, isn´t it?
Zradix, that may be right, I have tried moving the nock downwards but I am trying moving it upwards, it may be the arrow bouncing...
And with the weird direction of the arrow when flying? It changes abruptly about half a meter! Thanks I have a big parapet for the arrows!!
QuoteOriginally posted by mysticguido:
I do better paper tuning then bareshaft tuning. I have to find the video that shows an arrow coming out of paradox.
Well I believe this is the one you're talking about!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWrcpzuAp8
Made by Daniel, aka Yononindo, a member here!
Enjoy!
Bottom line is how do your BH's fly w/respect to your field points. Tuning BH's, at least, 5 yards beyond your effective hunting range will put you on the mark.
Yes, I may bare shaft tune at longer ranges for starters but have faith once my BH's are tuned. When my 1.5" 3 blade BH's meet this criteria, my arrow flight is beautiful.
Also, note that tuning is limited by your own ability to consistantly execute a shot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mikelo:
Well, Javi, I have just half an inch passed my riser at full draw, it it the normal length, isn´t it?
Zradix, that may be right, I have tried moving the nock downwards but I am trying moving it upwards, it may be the arrow bouncing...
And with the weird direction of the arrow when flying? It changes abruptly about half a meter! Thanks I have a big parapet for the arrows!!
Normal.. I don't know.. My arrows are a good bit longer than that.. but I start full length and trim to spine... If I can't get there then I go up a spine range on the arrow and start over..
I've never understood the desire to bare shaft tune. Who cares where a bare shaft hits. You don't practice or hunt with bare shafts. I paper tune with the arrows I intend to shoot. It may not be perfect, but then again, neither am I.
Odd man out here. Before changing an anchor point to nose tip, I had practise sessions at least once weekly with bare shafts only. They sure magnified form issues and shooting bare shafts at 3D's wasn't out of the question.