A friend of mine which I shoot with often, is planning to hunt deer with a 45# @ 28" bow, which he draws ~26", and 438 gn arrows.
We are at the extremes for what I choose for an arrow design. I have suggested that his arrow weight selection is far too light and that this set-up could be deemed unethical, especially if you have better options, and that the animal deserves better. Yes, I believe a perfect shot with a 2 blade BH would work, but that would be what he would be restricted to.
This set-up disturbs me.
My concern is not at all with the 40# @ 26 draw wt. The concern deals with the arrow wt selected (438 gns) to be utilized in conjunction with 40# @ 26".
My objective here is to provide proper guidance for this 1st time traditional hunter.
We are very good friends.
Suggestions for helping this archer out would be highly appreciated.
At the old stand by rule of 9 - 10 grains per lb. bow weight I consider the arrow heavy enough. But, if the bow is truly #45 @ 28" and he is only drawing 26" then he is only drawing about #39 figuring a #3 drop of weight per inch. That is where I consider border line on enough poundage on deer sized game. Like you said perfect arrow placement is crucial and we all know that perfect shot doesn't happen every time.
Knowing his actual poundage rate in reference to his draw length may raise a flag as far as legality in your state for hunting deer. I would check the regs to see if his setup is legal. Many deer have been killed with lighter poundage bows and that cannot be disputed. Putting the arrow in the right place as indicated and a sharp broadhead are essential. How difficult would it be for him, to jump up a few pounds in bow weight and make up the difference? Best of luck to you and him!
You may not be helping him out at all if he can't shoot a heavier bow. If he is accurate with that set-up, I see no issue. He's likely only getting 40# or a hair better but it's better to hit good with 40# than gut-shoot with 60#.
There is nothing unethical about his set-up. He's over 10 gpp which is one rule of thumb. The state may mandate a bow weight or distance of cast. (He'd be legal in NY for whitetail that can get over 250 lbs).
Whether a heavier arrow would help is again determined by whether he can hit using an arrow with a more pronounced trajectory. I use 590 gr arrows but carrying only 125 gr heads because I have problems with a vertical spread if I try heavier. Probably would eventually get used to it, but don't need to as I am happy at 125 gr.
The 10 gpp rule has its limitations.
Shooting 25# @ 28 and 250 gn arrows also meets the 10 gpp rule. I woulc conjecture that the gpp requirement would significantly rise as you move down in draw wt and draw length.
My concern is not upping his poundage, but that this low wt of 438 may be a poor choice.
Offering constructive guidance is the key here.
Hey Scott,
This year my set-up was a 46#@ 26" (52#@28")recurve with Beman MFX Classic 600s. My arrows had 75 grain HIT inserts, 100 grain broadhead (single bevel Helix-2 blade) with 3, 4" feathers. The arrow weighed 415 grains.
I double-lunged 2 deer with this set-up. The first was 21 yards and the second was 16 yards. Both dropped in my sight at 59 and 52 yards respectively. I had complete pass through on both.
I know my set-up was on the light side but it worked very well for me. I'm going to try to up the weight to 515 for 2011 by going to 500s with a 125 grain broadhead, just for the fun of it and maybe for a just a tad more margin.
I recall my early days in traditional (before the 34-year interruption by compounds)when it was very common for folks to hunt with factory-built bows of 45 and 50 pounds. Some of these folks were drawing less than 26" so I'm sure there were many deer killed by bows in the high 30's and low 40's. I killed my first deer in 1970 with a Ben Pearson Cougar speced at 45 pounds -- I bet I was only getting 39 or 40 out of it. I have no idea what my cedar arrows weighed because at 16 I knew NOTHING about tuning -- shoot, I hadn't even seen a live deer before killing that first one!
I wouldn't worry about his set-up if he's accurate, selective, and can keep sharp broadheads on those arrows.
P.S. Keep up the great work with those kids!
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
A friend of mine which I shoot with often, is planning to hunt deer with a 45# @ 28" bow, which he draws ~26", and 438 gn arrows.
That sounds a lot like the setup my grandfather used to shoot through deer for decades. It worked just fine for him and a lot of other bowhunters back then.
I don't think whitetails have biologically evolved much over the last 30 years.
Jason R. Wesbrock is right. So is stumpkiller. I use a 55# recurve on a regular basis but I am considering dropping down to a 4o# or 45# bow for the cold weather as they are easier to shoot. Like stumpkiller said, "Better to hit good with a 40# bow than to gut shoot with a 60# bow".
That set up is legal for elk in Colorado. Is it ethical? That is a choice that each hunter has to make on their own, and it is none of my business.
I asked a well known bowyer about the 40# minimum for elk in Colorado as I had concerns that it was way to light, but he assured me that a well tuned arrow from his wifes bow passes completely through an elk. He then went on to tell me how tuning and arrow flight is far more important than the weight of a bow.
Ethics is a tough discussion to have with friends. If he is a good friend, I wouldn't let this issue come between you.
My suggestion is that he stay with his current set up.
Paul
I would hunt with it. I keep my shots under 15 yards, with a sharp BH. Whats to worry.
Like Bowwild I shoot light equipment and use the Helix but shoot a bit more weight. I have old injuries that make it necessary. I am trying to work up to more weight but until then I have to shoot what I can accurately shoot.
This year I hunted Bear in Idaho and posted a thread here. This is the set-up part of the thread...
--------------------
I have to say that I was a little worried about my set up. I shoot a Big Jim Buffalo Bow 45@28 and I draw 27 ΒΌ...I spent some time getting my arrows to fly right and ended with GT 35/55 trads full length RW Helical 4" feathers, 100 grain insert and a RW 100 grain Strickland Helix single bevel broadhead. Penetration was not an issue....
-----------
This is the bear at 250#s or so...complete pass thru, died 25 or 30 yards from the hit.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/2010%20Bear%20Hunt%20Idaho/2010BearhuntIdaho008-2.jpg)
It depends on the bow and the arrow flight. A strong shot and good arrow flight from a lighter bow is always deadlier than a wobbly arrow shot with weak form from a too heavy bow for the shooter. My wife has only once had the arrow stop in the deer, and that one the deer jumped the string. The arrow entered the right rump and stopped stuck tight in the far left scapula, with a 37 at 26" Darton recurve. Heavier has its advantages, but it does not disqualify a lower poundage fast shooting bow, a perfect flying arrow, a strong accurate shot and a sharp broadhead.
Practice ,practice ,practice....shots that are under 20 yards with a sharp broadhead, he will do fine.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
A friend of mine which I shoot with often, is planning to hunt deer with a 45# @ 28" bow, which he draws ~26", and 438 gn arrows.
That sounds a lot like the setup my grandfather used to shoot through deer for decades. It worked just fine for him and a lot of other bowhunters back then. [/b]
I trust Mr Wesbrock's analysis... I did when my lil turkey hunting bow shot so well I wanted to make it my deer hunting bow!!! I'll just say the deer didn't seem to mind a bit...
I think with bemans or epics and good 2 blade he's got nuthing to fret about... I'd probably want a lil more weight be around 475 preferably with a high EFOC... But for whitetail I think he'd get pass throughs.... :dunno:
QuoteOriginally posted by kill shot:
Jason R. Wesbrock is right. So is stumpkiller. I use a 55# recurve on a regular basis but I am considering dropping down to a 4o# or 45# bow for the cold weather as they are easier to shoot. Like stumpkiller said, "Better to hit good with a 40# bow than to gut shoot with a 60# bow".
I recently had some health issues and went from 200# to 155# in a year without trying. I'm not the lad I was; but I'm back to 170# (at 6'2", which is also short an inch from a year ago). This past October I hunted with my 55#@28" recurve that I draw to 30# . . . but before climbing out of my tree I flung a blunt at a dead log. Cold, and in my layers of clothes I could not get to full draw. Rut Rho. Since then I have shot at least three arrows
every day (or dozens on the weekends) and have it back, but the writing was on the wall.
I've got a selection of bows in two to five pound steps from 60#@28 down to 43#@28" and so I have my golden years planned out. I've seen plenty of overbowed shooters, and I also had the pleasure of knowing a few "old timers" of the Zipper Club (open heart surgery) who hunted with bows in the light 40's and used little cedar arrows that blew through deer because they were sharp and tuned to fly very smoothly. That and they were patient and chose their shots
very carefully.
Age and treachery will aways triumph over youth and skill.
"Age and treachery will aways triumph over youth and skill."
I like it :)
I killed dozens and dozens of deer before I knew about 10gpp or FOC or EFOC. I still have no idea how much my setup weighed or what kind of weight I was drawing back then. I thought it was alot of weight and the 29" 2117s zipped right through deer.
I know there is a good reason behind alot of this stuff, but we tend to nit-pic a setup to death over numbers and not real life experience.
I was talked roughly to from a guy on this forum a while back about a setup. He told me about what I was doing wrong and how this should have been and how that should have been and on and on. Then about 6 or 8 months later, he posts about killing his first deer with trad. :confused: Numbers ain't everything, experience is alot.
I am not trying to rant, but if this guy is at ease with his setup and feels like he can make a clean kill on a deer, let him alone. His setup is fine.
God Bless,
Nathan
Look at my signature. Notice the poundages of my bows. Notice the overall weight of my arrows for each bow. Notice the GPP (grains per pound) of my arrows. At 20 yards and under, these arrows on a broadside lung shot (pass throughs) go through a deer like a hot knife through butter.
Guys,
Thank you for the candid feedback.
I was pushing for at least 13 gpp.
I will share your posts with him and apologize and relax knowing my conscious is at ease.
Thanks again!!
I think a lot of the issue with lighter set ups comes from margin error. You have to hit broadside behind the shoulder or else you have a walking advertisement for PETA running around in the bush with your arrow as the flag.
You should try and work to shoot a half decent weight to help lesson the margin of error. if 39-40lbs hits a bone or a heavy shoulder it's not good. The more weight you shoot the better penitration you get.
39-40 is iffy and illegal where I'm from.
In the archery world, the only weight that is overkill is when one reaches more than they can handle...as now they are killing (injuring either themselves or their form) when they don't need to.
SO, I do agree there is nothing wrong with shooting a heavy bow if one can handle it, but it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT to shoot a bow that one can control...and to hit what they are aiming at.
Accuracy kills.
Now, if he was hunting elephants or the big five then your concerns I believe would be valid, but if he is just hunting white tails...NO PROBLEM if he is competent (assuming he has an efficient bow).
My concern was not at all with the 40# @ 26 draw wt. Shoot the poundage, w/i reason, what you are comfortable with.
My concern dealt with the arrow wt selected (438 gn) to be utlized to hunt deer in conjunction with the low draw wt. This particular arrow is just above normal FOC. My feeling is that a tuned arrow, sharp two blade BH and vitually a perfect shot will be required.
My feeling is that if someone has limitations then you are doing the best you can. On the flip side, if you have the opportunity and means to get away from the minimul, then it should be highly considered. The consideration of which I'm referring to is to up the arrow wt . How much, I don't know? However I would speculate arround 13 gpp for this light wt set-up.
The ten grain per pound rule can only be applied for certain draw wt ranges. In KY, you are legal to hunt with a 10# @ 28 with a 100 gn arrow as long as you have a 7/8" BH. Shooting deer with the minimul equipment may be a lack of regard for the animal's life and is great fuel for the anti's. Used to have to deal with the anti's more often than I care to remember when guiding years back and always seemed to lose a hunt that day. No fun!
I know little of firearms and just enough of traditional to be dangerous. Some years back, I recall reading more than once, that the 22 cal. had taken more deer than all calibers combined. If it was legal and you had a 30-06 at your disposal, which would be the better choice?
My objective here is to provide proper guidance for this 1st time traditional hunter.
Sounds fine to me,my wife shoots 35# @ 26" with a 430grn. arrow. She has shot alot of game using this set up. NOW! with that said, you also have to be responsible for the shots you pick.She has taken broadside shots at 25 yrds.or less.Most at 20 yrds or less.
I know I have posted this before but this is proof that a well tuned bow and arrow and proper shot placement are more important than weight. This is a big pig and I was shooting a 49# @ 28" shrew. In reality I probably wasn't reaching all the way to 28". I was using a 430grain beeman mfx and a 125grain razorshark. The fletchings hung up in the exit wound and the arrow fell out at his first step.
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g167/skipmaster1/hog.jpg)
nice hog
Hopefully that's a road behind you. I'd hate to have to pack that brute very far :)
Nice hog !!!
these kinda threads are always disturbing to some folks, absolutely me included.
i don't care who shot what 5000# critter with a 35# bow and a 300 grain arrow. every time a thread like this surfaces, it tends to suggest "if joe blow did it, so can i". this is wicked wrong thinking and not the kind of message we need to be flying to the newbies, the clueless, or the public.
you know when yer gear is ethically marginal for the type of game to be hunted. listen to yourself.
we should all strive to shoot our traditional bows as consistently accurately as possible, and employ as much holding draw weight as that good accuracy will allow, utilizing an arrow of reasonable heavy mass weight.
anything else is an excuse. you can pull 40# accurately well and yer reasonably fit? WORK AT SHOOTING WITH 5# MORE.
A few years back I had back surgery and the Doc. told me to back off on my heavy# bows for a while so I ended up buying a a 43# BW and at my draw lenght was getting 40 @27. Shot 3 deer that fall with no problems at all. Still got that bow and its suprizeing how well I shoot it.
doug77
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
these kinda threads are always disturbing to some folks, absolutely me included.
i don't care who shot what 5000# critter with a 35# bow and a 300 grain arrow. every time a thread like this surfaces, it tends to suggest "if joe blow did it, so can i". this is wicked wrong thinking and not the kind of message we need to be flying to the newbies, the clueless, or the public.
you know when yer gear is ethically marginal for the type of game to be hunted. listen to yourself.
we should all strive to shoot our traditional bows as consistently accurately as possible, and employ as much holding draw weight as that good accuracy will allow, utilizing an arrow of reasonable heavy mass weight.
anything else is an excuse. you can pull 40# accurately well and yer reasonably fit? WORK AT SHOOTING WITH 5# MORE.
I don't think anyone is saying to shoot a low weight for the sake of shooting a low weight. I always suggest shooting as much as you can comfortably and accurately shoot, many of the guys here have said the same. I think there is way more of a problem with guys(or gals) shooting hunting bows with more weight than they can handle. I'd go out on a limb and say more animals are lost to overbowed people than people who comfortably shoot lower weights. By all means work on getting your strength built up, but don't be afraid to hunt with a lower weight if you haven't built that strength yet.
When I started shooting a recurve, I was shooting a compound everyday. i always shot between 80 and 90#'s. I bought a 55# Bear and was way overbowed. I finally switched to a 49# longbow and my accuracy improved 10 fold. Over time, my muscles and form improved so now 55#'s is nothing for me to shoot. The point is I'm glad I switched to the lower weight and I'm glad it didn't keep me out of the woods, until I could shoot more weight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Skipmaster1:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
these kinda threads are always disturbing to some folks, absolutely me included.
i don't care who shot what 5000# critter with a 35# bow and a 300 grain arrow. every time a thread like this surfaces, it tends to suggest "if joe blow did it, so can i". this is wicked wrong thinking and not the kind of message we need to be flying to the newbies, the clueless, or the public.
you know when yer gear is ethically marginal for the type of game to be hunted. listen to yourself.
we should all strive to shoot our traditional bows as consistently accurately as possible, and employ as much holding draw weight as that good accuracy will allow, utilizing an arrow of reasonable heavy mass weight.
anything else is an excuse. you can pull 40# accurately well and yer reasonably fit? WORK AT SHOOTING WITH 5# MORE.
I don't think anyone is saying to shoot a low weight for the sake of shooting a low weight. I always suggest shooting as much as you can comfortably and accurately shoot, many of the guys here have said the same. I think there is way more of a problem with guys(or gals) shooting hunting bows with more weight than they can handle. I'd go out on a limb and say more animals are lost to overbowed people than people who comfortably shoot lower weights. By all means work on getting your strength built up, but don't be afraid to hunt with a lower weight if you haven't built that strength yet.
When I started shooting a recurve, I was shooting a compound everyday. i always shot between 80 and 90#'s. I bought a 55# Bear and was way overbowed. I finally switched to a 49# longbow and my accuracy improved 10 fold. Over time, my muscles and form improved so now 55#'s is nothing for me to shoot. The point is I'm glad I switched to the lower weight and I'm glad it didn't keep me out of the woods, until I could shoot more weight. [/b]
i agree with you completely, you've been there and have done the right thing, and you understand.
still, for those who don't fully comprehend what this business of hunting draw weight means, that's the reason for my post.
Gottcha. Looks like we're on the same page! I guess we all have to remember to stress certain points for newer guys that maybe we take for granted
I agree with skipmaster that starting out over bowed prevents lots of people from mastering proper form, the foundation of all that follows. Poor form contributes to so many ills that lead to misses and wounding.
None of us knows what will work until someone who knows tells us or we find out for ourselves. The greatest benefit of TradGang is our opportunity to learn from the consensus experience of others. This site, if one is attentive can be a far better mentor than most of us had to follow for many years.
Like another above stated, when I'm asking I want to know actual experience rather than theory.
Finally, I've been eat with archery all my life. I've been very involved in so many aspects of it for decades. I am shocked how much I've learned from the collective experience of those here.
Rob D, I understand and appreciate your concerns. I hope to always be physically able to shoot the 46-49 # I'm shooting. If I go to the moose woods this fall I'm going to work towards 55#+. But it does my heart good to hear of the 40# successes by expert archers, just in case I get old (er).
Also to answer your question about arrow weight.All of my experience has been with deer and hogs, if you go for something bigger, i have no personal experience, but I think 10-12 grains per pound is a good place to be with any hunting bow. Not to say you couldn't go a bit heavier, but at some point you hit the point of diminishing returns and it seems to happen quite quickly with short draws and low draw weights. Razor sharp heads, great arrow flight and good shot placement, as well as knowing the limitations of your equipment and yourself are the key to short bloodtrails.
I have seen some cases over the last 17 years of shooting where someone actually went down in bow weight and GAINED performance because they could draw it further.
That said, I don't condone hunting with unreasonably low weights for a given condition (accuracy, range, type of shot, and type of game being hunted).
good stuff, guys, real good stuff. :thumbsup:
Friend is more concerned with arrow weight than draw weight it sounds like. I think wpp is more a function of bow efficiency (more energy transferred, less noise). Overall energy imparted is a function of speed and weight, which really comes from the poundage of the bow.
That said, I shot my first deer this year with an arrow barely over 400. I didn't know better when I purchased the arrows, and I couldn't add any more weight as they were already on the verge of underspined. But it had complete pass through and had to find it 20 yards away buried completely under a log.
I'm pretty sure I would have gotten adequate penetration no matter where it hit.
Bow was about 48# @ 29".
killed my first one with a 30lb bow when I was a kid I think his set up will be fine out to 20 yards
I now shoot 70lb bows so I am not one of the lightweight bow advocates
There's so much to this, and more firewood and firewater has been consumed over such discussions since the glaciers receeded than any other. And not just archery.
The problem with working at the minimum fringes is that it does not allow any margin for error. If you're at the hairy low end and are cold, tired, tick a branch, snag a jacket sleeve . . . what then?
I've so far been hale and hearty enough to have always fielded a 50# or better bow and a middling heavy arrow when deer hunting. And even then I draw beyond that. Got as far as a 70# D. Quillion Patriot bow but never got good enough with it and did not enjoy shooting it so I sold it. But there's a lot of folks not able, for whatever reason, to get near that draw weight. The stern recommendation may be to find an alternative to a traditional stickbow. That's kind of harsh, but is perhaps what is needed for the betterment of bowhunting. But where do we draw the line and how is it to be measured and enforced?
Is a 40# bow and 560 gr arrow with a solid two-blade better than a 60# compound and a 360 gr arrow with a mechanical head? How do you measure impartially and fairly? Harvest reports? Loss/wound statistics? Good luck getting a concensus on that one.
One of the best ideas, I thought, is a proficiency test for a bow license. When I took my hunter's safety course it was optional - but with it I can (supposedly) participate in certain semi-closed areas. Haven't come across one yet (31 years later). Should it be manditory? Bring a broadhead and three field arrows and if you can penetrate some test media to XX inches with the broadhead and also hold a three-shot group of XX inches at XX yards with field points you get a passing grade. But who sets the bar? I'd go for that, even a four-year renewal requirment . . . if it was something I knew I'd pass. But if it was three shots in 6" at 45 yards? I'd be pretty upset.
'Course, I'd also be practicing a lot at 45 yards.
I have no experience with light set-ups and felt I may be giving poor guidance so I have solicited your help. The interesting responses weren't anything like I might expect. Being wrong and admitting to it as well as apologizing and being more diplomatic in the future is the only sensible option. I again apologize.
This evening I revalidated the arrow wt and found I had transposed the arrow wt. values. When initially typing up this topic, I recall thinking that the arrow could not have been 348 gns so I entered 438; Again, one of my numerous errors.
The actual total arrow wt is in fact 348 gn and I am still concerned.
Please accept my sincere apology for my error.
I am going to start a new topic "Low Poundage Bows and Light Wt Arrow II".
My objective is to help this friend out with arrow spec selections for hunting deer with a 39# @26 bow.
Sorry for the inconvenience and I hope that the TG members will respond to the new post.