Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: on January 20, 2011, 09:07:00 AM
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My first longbow was a 72# "custom" bow I bought from friend...He called it "stump"...it was. I hated it with a passion but was determined to do the longbow thing right. The end of that story - I chose to keep my teeth and unloaded it for a song.
Fast forward.....Bought a beautiful hill-style bow from Dave Dwyer at the expo in Kalamazoo...maybe five years ago. It was very well behaved, comfortable to shoot - actually had a certain "finesse" about it (can't explain that).
That bow was beautiful as well - backed with quilted cherry..awesome. flawless workmanship BTW!!
My Question: I see many of you shooting the Wesley Special. What is the big deal...is it radically different or just another name for a straight-limbed lb? The reason for the question is that I am thinking about doing it once more to see if I can fall in love with Howards bow..
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Nothing radical 5 layers of bamboo hand built great American longbow that shoots with authority.
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I did not think Dave made hill style bows, I know he makes a stright D style longbow. It has a locator grip with a tough of R/D to it, I ahve never seen a bow from him with a "broom handle" like on a Hill bow. His longbow is real quiet, with little handshock and is narrow limbed, thick cored. It is a SMOOTH drawing bow. You are correct, all of Dave's bows are works of art, especially the limb tips.
Bob.
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Yep, Wesley's have five laminations of bamboo, Big 5s have four laminations, and Tembos have three laminations. In theory, the five laminations enables Craig to use thinner laminations of bamboo which capture the the strongest section of the culn from which the laminations are cut. On the other hand, the extra glue joint for adding the fifth lamination tends to stiffen/reduce the fleibility of the limb some, such that the two features are probably offsetting. At least that's my opinion. They're all good bows. Shoot the model you like to look at.
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Bob, I guess I consider the "D" a hill style although it is not a straight stick...that is why I am asking y'all. Coming from recurves to my first longbow made by OL Adcock. I really don't know the d-bows all that well. I liked Dave's bow a lot.
So...Ben, your short answer is "no" nothing special..as in minimal or no difference in design and shooting characteristic?
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'hill style' and 'D braced' can be two very different bows. i.e. - mild r/d longbows like mohawks have nothing seriously in common with a hill.
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Tony it's kind of like genetics..lol
All line breeding is inbreeding but not all inbreeding is line breeding.
With the exception of the Hill Badger I think I could say that all other Hills are "D" bows but not all "D" bows are Hills.
I hope I have clouded the issue.
God bless,Mudd
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
'hill style' and 'D braced' can be two very different bows. i.e. - mild r/d longbows like mohawks have nothing seriously in common with a hill.
x2!!!
I just found this out first hand. I tried both these bows recently. They are both great bows but with totally different "attitudes" if you will. I just ordered a Hill and the Mohawk will be coming when the taxes come back. :bigsmyl:
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from a previous post i made comparing 'hawks and hills ....
there is no comparison 'tween the two bows as they are different in many ways that may not be visually available.
hill style longbows have narrow and deep limbs, with either some reflex, or straight, or follow, and brace to a "D" shape. as a result of their design, they are very stable, require longer bow lengths for a given draw length, and yes, you need to know how to shoot them to reduce the hand shock to a thump.
mohawk longbows have wider, thinner, trapped limbs with both mild limb reflex and riser deflex. as a result of r/d, they can be more efficient and pleasing in shorter lengths for a given draw length. they also brace to a "D" limb shape.
having owned and shot a gaggle of both bows ...
hills are aesthetically the most pleasing longbows, whether unbraced or braced. nothing sez 'trad archery/bowhunting' than a howard hill longbow and a quiver fulla woodies. i love 'em, i want 'em, i'll always have 'em.
however, 'hawks are much smoother on the draw and release with zero hand shock, while maintaining a good degree of 'stability' on the release. these bows simply exhibit more performance - faster arrow speeds, no shock or thump on release and they do like heavy arrows.
as always, ymmv - as it should!
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My view is the less you complicate the Hill style bows the better. They are the no fuss bows of the trad world. I usually shoot bows in the 50 lb weight and I tried going higher to satisfy my macho. Only a Hill bow allows me to go high in weight, 75@28. Can't really explain why, just that it draws well, doesn't mind a little extra muscle action and spits out a quiet arrow, so what's not to love about them.
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Macatawa,
I am glad you got to meet Dave, he is a great guy and a superb bowyer. His bows are awesome. His longbow is a very stable, quick bow, that has a great profile both strung and unstrung. They hunt well to boot.
Bob.
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LongStick64 I am glad you mentioned Hills of higher weight.
I traded for a Hill(66" and 60@28) not long ago that was way above what I considered my maximum draw weight limit to be just because I could and I knew the bow would make good trade material.
Much to my surprise and delight, I shot it and found I didn't have "any!" problem during or after shooting.
I am real curious as to what my upper limits might be now with this style of bow.
God bless,Mudd
PS: BTW I am normally shooting anywhere from 42 to 48#.
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Macatawa,
This thread could go on for a while. You have touched an interesting point.
I have other bows that "technically" out perform my Hills. But, I love my Hill bows. Shoot a Big 5, for a while - not just a day or two, and you will understand.
Matt
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Macatawa you have a PM. Although I think the Wesley Special is a fine bow, I would not recommend it over my standard "Cheetah" TD, or for that matter my TD "RedMan" with 4 lams of yew. Craig calls the Wesley his top of the line bow. There is such little difference in price, why not buy the Wesley? That is the thought process that many of us go through when purchasing our first bow from Craig. Beware however, as "Harl" told me, you can't own just one Hill. Truer words have never been spoken. :campfire:
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Wesley has always been HH pick of the litter bow. Can't tell much difference with their others but I do love Hills especially compared to recurves & flatter limb bows. You've made a good choice IMO. Bill's right...I'm Hill poor.
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I must confess that I liked the Wesley but, I'm liking my Tembo much more! My Owl and Redman are right there with it. I did have a Big5 I wish I had held on to because for some reason that bow just shot real well.
Good luck with which ever one you decide to go with. :thumbsup:
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Macatawa i cant tell you whats the big deal.All i know they were calling out to me,so i gave one a try.Now im hooked ,they are works of art and they shoot great.Next time you go to a shoot see if someone has one to try.
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I have a 64" Wesley, a 68" Tembo and a 68" Big Five. The Big Five is on it's way back to Craig to see if some wt. can be taken off(currently 54#'s). With the Wesley, I don't know if it's the length or the locator grip but I struggle with consistency. The Tembo is just plain fun to shoot!
(http://i51.tinypic.com/63vejm.jpg)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/ifo17d.jpg)
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A mild R/D bow like a Robertson and others can be shot using Hill/Schulz form just the same. Not all Hill style bows have the same performance, some are more harsh and others put out a faster arrow without as much hand shock. I think if a bow allows one to shoot with the Hill style form and tempo and still be stable and accurate, we should be careful to not make a prejudiced recommendation to someone that is not as familiar with them. I personally hate to give advice to someone, just to have them spend their money and end up being frustrated with their purchase. The old learn and try before you by, it is often difficult for some to understand what longbow form is. One local wheelie shooter had the idea it was a 'flick draw' and the faster he could do it the better, even after I tried and tried to explain how to handle a longbow. He needed to be totally frustrated before he could grasp it, even after he watched videos and watched me shoot.
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What's the big deal? I'm not sure but I think there's just something satisfyingly classic about Hill bows. There are other knives out there with more advanced steel and better handles and so forth but there's nothing quite like a stag handled Randall. I guarantee you can get better performance and efficiency from a modern foreign car but there is *nothing* like a '57 Chevy.
I think we're talking about the same intangible sweetness here.
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Originally posted by GingivitisKahn:
What's the big deal? I'm not sure but I think there's just something satisfyingly classic about Hill bows. There are other knives out there with more advanced steel and better handles and so forth but there's nothing quite like a stag handled Randall. I guarantee you can get better performance and efficiency from a modern foreign car but there is *nothing* like a '57 Chevy.
I think we're talking about the same intangible sweetness here.
x 2
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I wonder if the state of the economy these days has people getting more "back to basics" and Hill style bows meet that desire and need - keeping it simple?
Joe
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I bought a Wesley Special a few years ago and I have to admit, I had more fun shooting that bow than any bow I have owned. I really can't explain why. I really didn't shoot it very well although I did get a turkey with it. I guess I went and sold it because on paper my scores were poor. I now own a Northern Mist that is very simular and I shoot it ok, but I have never shot a classic longbow as well as a hybrid longbow. Every now and then, I drag out the Hill style longbow and shoot it a few days until I get aggravated at how I am shooting. I just love the looks and feel (even the handshock) of the classic longbow. Maybe I should just quit worrying about how I shoot if I am having fun.
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Many times when a person shoots heavier risered recurves and hybrids very well but can't with the Hill, it's due to the light physical weight and arrow/bow tuning! With heavier, center shot bows we don't have to be as conscious(sp) of bow arm control because the heavier riser helps steady it, and arrow spine is not as critical, but it's quite the opposite with a Hill! Get those two things right and they become deadly killin machines!
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oh...this is not as easy as I thought it could be...
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
'hill style' and 'D braced' can be two very different bows. i.e. - mild r/d longbows like mohawks have nothing seriously in common with a hill.
So, basically the straight sticks are hill – any pronounced r/d puts them into a different category.
Thanks Rob, your longer post was most helpful. What I am reading here so far is that you all really like the true traditional look and feel. Really not too worried about top performance.
Originally posted by Mudd:
Tony it's kind of like genetics..lol
All line breeding is inbreeding but not all inbreeding is line breeding. With the exception of the Hill Badger I think I could say that all other Hills are "D" bows but not all "D" bows are Hills.
I hope I have clouded the issue.
God bless,Mudd
Ha!! Roy, it is clear as muddd now...thanks a lot!
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Originally posted by leatherneck:
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
'hill style' and 'D braced' can be two very different bows. i.e. - mild r/d longbows like mohawks have nothing seriously in common with a hill.
x2!!!
I just found this out first hand. I tried both these bows recently. They are both great bows but with totally different "attitudes" if you will. :bigsmyl: [/b]
I think you hit on a key word.."ATTITUDE"
That is significant...I understand that. Maybe the real reason I will not keep some bows for long.
Originally posted by GingivitisKahn:
What's the big deal? I'm not sure but I think there's just something satisfyingly classic about Hill bows. There are other knives out there with more advanced steel and better handles and so forth but there's nothing quite like a stag handled Randall. I guarantee you can get better performance and efficiency from a modern foreign car but there is *nothing* like a '57 Chevy.
I think we're talking about the same intangible sweetness here.
x 2 [/b][/QUOTE]
Ben and Jim, This is the reason why I have not let these bows fall by the wayside…I really love the way they look… Period. Ha! Seems that for many, there is a love/hate relationship…”love the way they look – hate the handshock” Guess that is where I am but DETERMINED to find the best design/length combination to find a keeper..
The beat goes on……
Thanks all for your feedback!
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macatawa sez...
What I am reading here so far is that you all really like the true traditional look and feel. Really not too worried about top performance.
i'd say that's a fair statement. imo, the closer a longbow gets to a recurve, the less "stability" it exhibits. the price to pay with hill style longbows is - the shooting learning curve to surmount/achieve, the longer limbs to deal with in the field and bush, and the thump of the release to the bowhand (YES, it IS there in one form or another). but once down pat, the stability and simplicity as a hunting machine is truly hard to beat. imho. ymmv.
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You're right about the lower fps, Macatawa. We just don't mind at all, because we know that it gets the job done at bowhunting range.
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Originally posted by Macatawa:
Ha! Seems that for many, there is a love/hate relationship…”love the way they look – hate the handshock” Guess that is where I am but DETERMINED to find the best design/length combination to find a keeper..
Cool then you are almost there. If you are getting handshock when you shoot your Hill, you can fix that problem by adjusting how you hold it. Howard's explanation, 'grip it like you would a suitcase' helps quite a bit as does this page (which goes into quite a bit more detail): http://www.howardhilllongbowmen.com/hillgrip/hillgrip.html
Fix your technique and you can change your love/hate relationship to a love/love one.
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but once down pat, the stability and simplicity as a hunting machine is truly hard to beat. imho. ymmv.
Sums it up nicely !
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Gordon Jabban...as long as you keep putting the Hill back on the rack and only shooting it from time to time, you will probably stay frustrated with it. If you decide that it is the style of bow you really want to shoot and stick to it a while, you may well discover that nothing else is quite the same again! Like most any style bow, some commitment is required to shoot Hill bows well, but they can be so much fun, so rewarding, and so effective in the field. Just dedicate this spring/summer to it and see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.....Dave
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Gordon,why torture yourself and a perfectly good bow?
Certainly the bow deserves better, as do you!
Let me help you out, I'll make the self sacrifice of taking it away.(pm me and I'll send you my address)
Believe me it'll be better for you both...lol
We both know that's not gonna happen so....
Look into your minds eye where you are the perfect imagine of a true archer.
What do you see?
What bow is in your hand?
When I have my "perfect image" bow in my hand, I am becoming the best archer I can be the more I shoot it.
If your bow fits that image for "you", then David has hit the nail squarely on it's head!
Good luck, good shooting, but most of all God bless!
His servant, Mudd
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Been a part of some good threads. Never seen such good straight Hill credible info. Once used to a straight handled smooth shooting longbow, it's hard to change. No elitism to it.
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So then why exactly do we shoot these things, I have been shooting Hill style bows since the 60s. I have seen lots of different shaped bows that were just as stable and forgiving as my Hill style bows. Is there actually a concrete answer?
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For me it is really a matter of consistency. Yes, I love the looks and the simplicity of Hills, but it is the fact that on any given day I can pick up that Tembo and know that I am going to hit what I aim at.
I have several nice r/d longbows that are a few pounds less in draw weight than my Tembo and will shoot the same arrow about the same speed. Some days I can shoot them very well - but some days I can't seem to be so consistent with them no matter what I do. That is when I go back to the Hill for reassurance that I can still hit what I shoot at.
For me, the romance factor of Hills is great, but hitting the target is the most important; I just don't shoot anything else as well.
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In answer to Pavan's question, I hunt with Hill bows because I shoot tighter groups with them than any other type of longbow I have ever shot.
I can shoot tighter groups with heavy-handled recurves, but so far, not with any other longbow. And trust me, I've tried and owned a ton of top-quality longbows. I also tested quite a few great bows back when I was publishing the magazine.
Tightest groups out of all the longbows I have shot? Howard Hill's narrow, deep cored longbows.
Love 'em!
Plus, they have a shorter bottom limb that other longbow designs, and for a ridge-running ground hunter like me, that is a huge advantage.
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It's like owning a 1967 corvette looks are incredible with great performance"Fast". And chicks that hunt think Hill Bows are hot!Have you ever held one, caressed it, heard it speak to you?.And it's one of the toughest bows I ever saw. :thumbsup: :goldtooth: :archer2:
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David, I did shoot a Hill style bow for quite a while before the hybred type bow got popular. I did shoot them pretty well back then but when 21th century bows came out and I got one. my shooting improved. You are right, I need to just shoot them. I think I will take it out squirrel hunting tomorrow!
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It took me a bit to get used to the Hills also. I was real inconsistent in the beginning and at one point many years ago I almost felt they weren't for me. Then, everytime I read a Hill post where someone uses a Hill or saw a photo it would get me all fired up about them again. I also talked to Craig about spine, thinking I was just having problems figuring out what arrow I should use. I eventually just started to focus more on my form (which for me I believe was the real culprit) and everything fell into place. For me, they are what I like in my hand when I am in the field, it just "feels right".
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Originally posted by Ken Babicky:
It took me a bit to get used to the Hills also. I was real inconsistent in the beginning and at one point many years ago I almost felt they weren't for me. Then, every time I read a Hill post where someone uses a Hill or saw a photo it would get me all fired up about them again.
Ha! Sounds like me for sure! :knothead:
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Im one of the lucky ones the hill bows shot great the first time i shot one.The straight grip and way shorter bow than most people think you should shoot felt great to me.Im hooked :archer2:
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Ben, in that case you are indeed lucky! I can imagine you will love your 66 Wesley. At least you have something to compare it to. I really don't yet have a clue but will find out in a few months.
Interesting...this thread was started to glean information from the gang pertaining to the Wesley...as compared to the other hill bows.
I'll be very interested to hear how your 64 compares to your new 66.
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Macatawa, I have a Tembo, Redman, Wesley, and 2 Big Fives (the latter are string follow design). They all shoot great. I can't really detect much if any difference between them. The Tembo gets lots of great reviews from those who own them.
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It wont be long before i get to test the 66" out.Im so used to shooting short longbows under 60" im not sure what to expect. :D But i can see a string follow bow in the future and maybe i will try a 68".